Pedestrian "Scramble"

[Stephane Dumas]

Some interesections in Tokyo allow pedestrians to cross a street diagonally and San Antonio experiment this system http://www.onthemoveblog.com/2010/01/are-you-ready-to-do-the-pedestrian-scramble/

I wonder the "pedestrian scramble" it could work in NYC, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal....?

[agentsteel53]

I believe such a thing exists in Pasadena, CA.  

it may very well help Manhattan, but Manhattan seems to have figured out its own set of rules, in which turns are made well past the point where the light has changed to red - usually one enters the intersection on green and waits to turn while pedestrians are crossing the lane to be turned into, and then when the pedestrians clear (and the light is red), the turn is completed.  That's pretty standard - however, it is customary for vehicles intending to make the turn who had not been able to enter the intersection on green to follow!

since there is room for more cars to queue up to turn left, Manhattan might very well be the only place in a right-hand-drive country where it is easier to make a left turn than a right turn!

in Manhattan, if you change over to an all-pedestrians phase, expect to see a lot of red lights being run!

[andytom]

Denver has these and has had them for at least 25 yrs.

--Andy

[Chris]

Such things are uncommon in Europe as most pedestrian-streets have low to no motorized traffic.

Pedestrian scrambles can be common in places where a lot of pedestrians are present on wide streets, like in Asian and North-American city centers. One of the most famous scramble is a pedestrian crossing in Shibuya, Tokyo.

[corco]

Shockingly, Laramie Wyoming has one of these at the intersection of 15th St and Ivinson St. This the primary connection from the dorms to the rest of campus, so there's a big jaywalking problem there. I actually got pulled over a few months ago because somebody crossed diagonally with a don't walk signal while my light was green. I rolled out into the intersection, but then my light then turned red and it switched to the all ped phase and I ended up sitting in the intersection after the light turned red with people diagonally crossing. I explained this to the officer and he wasn't surprised at all and let me off, but it's annoying.

There also is or was one in Boise at either 8th and Bannock or 8th and Jefferson

[yacoded]

Hartford has always had them, except at one-way streets downtown.  Also, I know that Toronto has them somewhere, but I know they are looking at expanding them with the 14 pedestrian deaths in the GTA. 

[vdeane]

I believe such a thing exists in Pasadena, CA. 

it may very well help Manhattan, but Manhattan seems to have figured out its own set of rules, in which turns are made well past the point where the light has changed to red - usually one enters the intersection on green and waits to turn while pedestrians are crossing the lane to be turned into, and then when the pedestrians clear (and the light is red), the turn is completed.  That's pretty standard - however, it is customary for vehicles intending to make the turn who had not been able to enter the intersection on green to follow!

since there is room for more cars to queue up to turn left, Manhattan might very well be the only place in a right-hand-drive country where it is easier to make a left turn than a right turn!

in Manhattan, if you change over to an all-pedestrians phase, expect to see a lot of red lights being run!

Unless NYC has passed its own law to override NY law, such turns are illegal for all but the first car (unless you are the first car in a left turn lane, it is illegal to enter the intersection unless you are the leading car even if the light is green (unless you have an arrow).

[roadfro]

According to this FHWA Highway History page, the pedestrian scramble was first used in Kansas City and Vancouver. Engineer Henry Barnes was first to implement the phasing on a widespread basis, thus the phrase "Barnes Dance".

Ped scrambles can be used well in any place where pedestrian volumes are high. The caveat is that the intersection should not be too wide and the vehicular volumes not too high...otherwise, the pedestrian crossing phase causes a lot of delay for vehicular traffic. Scrambles also don't work well with coordinated signal corridors, unless there are multiple scramble locations.


There's a couple scrambles in the Reno/Sparks area. The two intersections of Victorian Avenue (old US 40) and Victorian Plaza Circle in Sparks have scramble phases. There's not a lot of through traffic here, cause it's in the Victorian Square area where there's lots of outdoor street festivals. Similarly, the intersection of Virginia Street (old US 395) and 2nd Street in downtown Reno has a scramble. This part of downtown can have heavy pedestrian traffic due to the casinos, and it's often closed off for street festivals as well. I believe Reno has plans for another scramble at Virginia and 4th Street (old US 40) once they reconstruct Virginia north of 4th.

[agentsteel53]

Unless NYC has passed its own law to override NY law, such turns are illegal for all but the first car (unless you are the first car in a left turn lane, it is illegal to enter the intersection unless you are the leading car even if the light is green (unless you have an arrow).

it may or may not be legal, but it is certainly very frequently done.  All cars move as far forward as they can, and there are often multiple cars queued up in the intersection waiting for a break in opposing or pedestrian traffic so they can complete their left turn.  When such traffic comes to a stop, because of the light turning red, not only does the intersection clear, but the cars still stuck in the turn lane start up too - expect about 3 or 4 cars to run the red! 

[Duke87]

it may or may not be legal, but it is certainly very frequently done.

It's illegal by the books, but not by New York City's unwritten rules of the road.

Similarly, the idea of a ped-only phase in Manhattan is preposterous. Walk/don't walk signals have no meaning.

[vdeane]

It's not really followed upstate either, but it should be.  Sometime I think the only traffic law that's actually enforced is the speed limit (and then only when the state needs money).

[Bryant5493]

Unless NYC has passed its own law to override NY law, such turns are illegal for all but the first car (unless you are the first car in a left turn lane, it is illegal to enter the intersection unless you are the leading car even if the light is green (unless you have an arrow).

it may or may not be legal, but it is certainly very frequently done.  All cars move as far forward as they can, and there are often multiple cars queued up in the intersection waiting for a break in opposing or pedestrian traffic so they can complete their left turn.  When such traffic comes to a stop, because of the light turning red, not only does the intersection clear, but the cars still stuck in the turn lane start up too - expect about 3 or 4 cars to run the red! 

I've seen this done a lot in Georgia. I do it. If the car ahead of me enters the intersection, I enter the intersection as well. Then when cross traffic clears and/or the lights turn red, I and the other car(s) finish the turn.

I saw a pedestrian scramble in Savannah, Georgia along, I think, Bay Street.


Be well,

Bryant

[joseph1723]

Also, I know that Toronto has them somewhere, but I know they are looking at expanding them with the 14 pedestrian deaths in the GTA. 

Yeah Toronto has had a few of them installed in past couple of years. I sure there's more but the two I recall off the top of my head is at Yonge and Dundas and Yonge and Bloor which went up in mid 2009 I think.

[SSOWorld]

Unless NYC has passed its own law to override NY law, such turns are illegal for all but the first car (unless you are the first car in a left turn lane, it is illegal to enter the intersection unless you are the leading car even if the light is green (unless you have an arrow).

it may or may not be legal, but it is certainly very frequently done.  All cars move as far forward as they can, and there are often multiple cars queued up in the intersection waiting for a break in opposing or pedestrian traffic so they can complete their left turn.  When such traffic comes to a stop, because of the light turning red, not only does the intersection clear, but the cars still stuck in the turn lane start up too - expect about 3 or 4 cars to run the red! 

I've seen this done a lot in Georgia. I do it. If the car ahead of me enters the intersection, I enter the intersection as well. Then when cross traffic clears and/or the lights turn red, I and the other car(s) finish the turn.

I saw a pedestrian scramble in Savannah, Georgia along, I think, Bay Street.


Be well,

Bryant

Chicago is notorious for this especially on Michigan Ave.  If you're an outsider trying to drive it on the weekends - expect horn honkings because you didn't go.

[Bryant5493]

Chicago is notorious for this especially on Michigan Ave.  If you're an outsider trying to drive it on the weekends - expect horn honkings because you didn't go.

Yeah, it peeves me off when folks don't go, because you're having idle for, maybe, five more minutes in traffic.


Be well,

Bryant

[hm insulators]

Seems to me Waikiki once upon a time had scrambles along Kalakaua Avenue. For all I know, the scrambles are still there.

[andytom]

Seems to me Waikiki once upon a time had scrambles along Kalakaua Avenue. For all I know, the scrambles are still there.

The pavement markings are still there for them.  And they are pretty fresh, too.

[english si]

There's a couple of these in London, including a new one that the press billed as the first one (as they don't go to Balham, or St Albans, which have had theirs for years) at Oxford Circus.

They make sense at signalised crossroads which have a lot of pedestrian traffic with turning movements.

[M3019C LPS20]

The "Barnes Dance" is still in use at various locations in the city of New York. It is typically used at a three-way signalized intersection, in which only one vehicular phase is in use. This is true for the main drag, which is, for the most part, a two-way street. The cross street is generally a one-way street.

Something similar to this type of movement is somewhat common to see as well. At a four-way signalized intersection, with regards to the cross street, before vehicular phase 2 begins, pedestrians receive a "WALK" indication first, and all four directions are red for only a handful of seconds (I'd say between 4 to 6 seconds). A leading "WALK" indication, really.

One signalized intersection that I know of that uses this particular movement is in Staten Island. The intersection is Hylan Blvd. and Tysens La. Hylan Blvd. is in the main drag, while Tysens La. is the cross street. Tysens La. uses the leading "WALK."

[Zmapper]

Denver has these and has had them for at least 25 yrs.

--Andy

Not anymore! Two years ago Denver retimed the traffic signals downtown from 75 to 90 seconds in order to accommodate longer light rail trains. The increased timing cycle meant that the pedestrian scramble had to be removed.

[cpzilliacus]

There used to be one in Silver Spring, Montgomery  County, Maryland at the intersection of U.S. 29 (Colesville Road) and Fenton Street (Google maps here), but it's been gone for many years, though there are still signs reminding pedestrians  that  diagonal crossings are not allowed.

[WichitaRoads]

Here is a pic of a Scramble in Wichita around 1960: http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wschm_D2SE-53.1.1.jpg

ICTRds

[1995hoo]

7th & H NW in DC (near the Verizon Center) has a "scramble" or "Barnes Dance" phase. They also allow standard crossing there outside of the all-pedestrian phase, so to keep traffic moving the city banned all turns. Lots of drivers ignore that restriction. (A normal Barnes Dance wouldn't allow the standard crossing, but DC decided that pedestrians would refuse to wait for the "scramble" phase. They're probably right. Many DC pedestrians think they're entitled to walk whenever and wherever they like.)

[froggie]

To be fair, there's arguably more pedestrians at 7th and H NW than there are vehicles.  In part because of that volume, I see no problem allowing them to cross during the regular green phase.

As to the turn restrictions, makes sense along 7th.  Since there's 4 lanes along H, they could possibly allow right turns from H onto 7th, but given the above-mentioned heavy pedestrian traffic, you'd probably wind up with a long right-lane queue not unlike what exists up at 7th and Florida NW.

Many DC pedestrians think they're entitled to walk whenever and wherever they like.

Funny you mention that.  I get the same impression from DC drivers.  Your citing that many drivers ignore the turning restriction being an excellent example.

[Rick Powell]

Green and Wright streets, Champaign/Urbana IL (Wright is the dividing line between the two municipalities).  The University of Illinois occupies the SE and NE quadrants of the intersection and there is heavy pedestrian traffic.  The scramble mode traffic signals and markings were installed as part of a Green Street reconstruction that converted the 4-lane to a 3-lane with streetscape elements, sometime in the late 90's or early 00's..