Pedestrian "Scramble"

[1995hoo]

To be fair, there's arguably more pedestrians at 7th and H NW than there are vehicles.  In part because of that volume, I see no problem allowing them to cross during the regular green phase.

As to the turn restrictions, makes sense along 7th.  Since there's 4 lanes along H, they could possibly allow right turns from H onto 7th, but given the above-mentioned heavy pedestrian traffic, you'd probably wind up with a long right-lane queue not unlike what exists up at 7th and Florida NW.

Many DC pedestrians think they're entitled to walk whenever and wherever they like.

Funny you mention that.  I get the same impression from DC drivers.  Your citing that many drivers ignore the turning restriction being an excellent example.

Yeah, there's no doubt there are a heck of a lot of very rude drivers in the DC area. I must say, I wonder about driver behavior at that particular intersection because it's a "visually busy" place (I'm not sure what the best phrase to describe that is, but there are a heck of a lot of visual distractions). What strikes me as a little bit unfortunate there is that the "No Turns" signs tend to blend into all the background mess. I don't have any pictures because I usually avoid driving through there and because when we walk to and from Caps games we use 8th Street (wider sidewalk and way less crowded). So here's a Street View looking south (at night, those TV monitors on the far left corner are a visual distraction). I don't doubt there are some drivers who fail to see or comprehend all the signs here and I think a light-up sign similar to the "No Left Turn" symbols used at 17th & Constitution might be more effective–but maybe not. That's not the easiest area of town to drive in anyway regardless of this sort of restriction.

The #1 "problem intersection" for pedestrian behavior in my experience is at 18th & L NW (Street View here) because of that sign allowing a right turn only on a green arrow (it's above that yellow pedestrian warning sign). Same thing applies going left from 18th onto L. Problem is, notwithstanding the "Don't Walk" sign the pedestrians flood out into the crosswalk during the green arrow and become quite vitriolic when a driver forces his way through. But if the driver doesn't do that, he's never going to be able to make the turn legally.

But I do not, and never will, understand pedestrians who stroll out illegally against the light and expect drivers just to stop. A few weeks ago on the way home from Verizon Center I had a green light crossing Pennsylvania Avenue on 10th Street. Some pedestrians strolled out to cross 10th against the light, so I blew the horn. They got out of the way and then one of them started giving the finger and yelling. I'm not sure what makes anyone think it's OK to behave that way. If you cross against the light, you have to move!!!

[algorerhythms]

I noticed yesterday that Norman, OK, has apparently added pedestrian scramble phases to the signals on Boyd Street around OU, though only the phases have been updated and none of the signage is changed.

[cpzilliacus]

To be fair, there's arguably more pedestrians at 7th and H NW than there are vehicles.  In part because of that volume, I see no problem allowing them to cross during the regular green phase.

As to the turn restrictions, makes sense along 7th.  Since there's 4 lanes along H, they could possibly allow right turns from H onto 7th, but given the above-mentioned heavy pedestrian traffic, you'd probably wind up with a long right-lane queue not unlike what exists up at 7th and Florida NW.

Many DC pedestrians think they're entitled to walk whenever and wherever they like.

Funny you mention that.  I get the same impression from DC drivers.  Your citing that many drivers ignore the turning restriction being an excellent example.

Yeah, there's no doubt there are a heck of a lot of very rude drivers in the DC area. I must say, I wonder about driver behavior at that particular intersection because it's a "visually busy" place (I'm not sure what the best phrase to describe that is, but there are a heck of a lot of visual distractions). What strikes me as a little bit unfortunate there is that the "No Turns" signs tend to blend into all the background mess. I don't have any pictures because I usually avoid driving through there and because when we walk to and from Caps games we use 8th Street (wider sidewalk and way less crowded). So here's a Street View looking south (at night, those TV monitors on the far left corner are a visual distraction). I don't doubt there are some drivers who fail to see or comprehend all the signs here and I think a light-up sign similar to the "No Left Turn" symbols used at 17th & Constitution might be more effective–but maybe not. That's not the easiest area of town to drive in anyway regardless of this sort of restriction.

I am of the opinion that at least some D.C. drivers and D.C. pedestrians want to be involved in a crash, so they call one of the (many) contingent-fee law firms that incessantly advertise on television in the D.C. and Baltimore media markets with the implication that such a crash can be a path to a pot of gold, paid courtesy of the evil insurance companies.

The #1 "problem intersection" for pedestrian behavior in my experience is at 18th & L NW (Street View here) because of that sign allowing a right turn only on a green arrow (it's above that yellow pedestrian warning sign). Same thing applies going left from 18th onto L. Problem is, notwithstanding the "Don't Walk" sign the pedestrians flood out into the crosswalk during the green arrow and become quite vitriolic when a driver forces his way through. But if the driver doesn't do that, he's never going to be able to make the turn legally.

Some of the intersections in Georgetown are similarly bad (though I don't go to Georgetown unless I have to for my job, as there is nothing in that part of D.C. that I have any need for or interest in, with  the single exception of Blues Alley, though parking there is so bad that I don't bother).

But I do not, and never will, understand pedestrians who stroll out illegally against the light and expect drivers just to stop. A few weeks ago on the way home from Verizon Center I had a green light crossing Pennsylvania Avenue on 10th Street. Some pedestrians strolled out to cross 10th against the light, so I blew the horn. They got out of the way and then one of them started giving the finger and yelling. I'm not sure what makes anyone think it's OK to behave that way. If you cross against the light, you have to move!!!

I just accept it as a fact of life - more than a few radical environmental activists in D.C. accuse the private motor vehicle of being the root of all evil (including  population decline) in their city (they are apparently not familiar with the (still) lousy public schools, "combined" sewers and their untreated outfalls, municipal corruption, a largely inept municipal police department and, of course, Councilmember-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr.).

None of these folks want to admit that without all of the revenue collected from owners and operators of private motor vehicles in D.C., all transit in the city would quickly shut down for lack of funds.

[NE2]

I'll take exaggeration over denial any day.

[kphoger]

I was thinking a pedestrian scramble might be something a restaurant could serve as a breakfast item.

I'll take mine with a sunny-side egg and some salsa on top, please. 

[theline]

Chicago started an experiment with the scramble today in the Loop at State and Jackson: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story

Other plans for Loop traffic are outlined in the story, including reducing the number of traffic lanes on some streets, adding bike and bus-only lanes, and reducing the number of spots where RTOR is allowed. Perhaps the idea is to reduce the number of accidents by making it less appealing for drivers to even try driving in the Loop. 

[Brandon]

Chicago started an experiment with the scramble today in the Loop at State and Jackson: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story

Other plans for Loop traffic are outlined in the story, including reducing the number of traffic lanes on some streets, adding bike and bus-only lanes, and reducing the number of spots where RTOR is allowed. Perhaps the idea is to reduce the number of accidents by making it less appealing for drivers to even try driving in the Loop. 

It's a good way to send businesses out to the suburbs.  We'll welcome them here. 

[Crazy Volvo Guy]

It's not really followed upstate either, but it should be.  Sometime I think the only traffic law that's actually enforced is the speed limit (and then only when the state needs money).

And this is precisely why speeding should be changed to a secondary enforcement item, i.e. you have to get pulled over for something worse, first.

This would force the traffic cops to actually enforce ALL traffic laws, not just the one that is the easiest and most profitable to enforce.

[kphoger]

Chicago started an experiment with the scramble today in the Loop at State and Jackson: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story

Other plans for Loop traffic are outlined in the story, including reducing the number of traffic lanes on some streets, adding bike and bus-only lanes, and reducing the number of spots where RTOR is allowed. Perhaps the idea is to reduce the number of accidents by making it less appealing for drivers to even try driving in the Loop. 

Having lived in Chicagoland for a number of years, I question why anyone even wants to drive in the Loop in the first place.  With a high cost of parking and an excellent transit system, I learned very quickly that it wasn't worth driving.

[jeffandnicole]

Waking up this thread...

NJDOT is going to test an exclusive pedestrian phase (EPP) at an intersection in Princeton, NJ.  The press release, linked below, is extremely well written, mentioning the pedestrian scramble including the diagonal crossing, and the downsides of the EPP.

https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/press/2019/060319.shtm

[mrsman]

Waking up this thread...

NJDOT is going to test an exclusive pedestrian phase (EPP) at an intersection in Princeton, NJ.  The press release, linked below, is extremely well written, mentioning the pedestrian scramble including the diagonal crossing, and the downsides of the EPP.

https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/press/2019/060319.shtm

I give them credit for trying something new, but I'm not sure a trial will be effective in June.  Most of the students will be away on summer break which will substantially decrease the number of pedestrians at this intersection.