I just noticed, according to Google Maps, that US 58 no longer continues to the east end of Laskin Rd. Rather, a few blocks west of the shore, there's a roundabout, and US 58 is shown with what looks like a split terminus, using the blocks on either side of Laskin (30th and 32nd). However, neither of those roads are one-way, so I'm not sure whether Google is correct. Not surprisingly, there doesn't appear to be any US 58 signs posted, until west of the roundabout.
When did this change happen? And is there anything official from VDOT that spells out what happens with US 58 at its east end?
The roundabout was converted from a standard intersection in 2013. I believe that US-58 still follows Laskin to US-60, as the official state map shows US-58 staying together (as opposed to I-264, which splits into the one-way pair), but I have little other official info to confirm this.
Detail map of VB can be found here: http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html (http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html)
Quote from: Thing 342 on February 14, 2016, 11:44:03 PM
The roundabout was converted from a standard intersection in 2013. I believe that US-58 still follows Laskin to US-60, as the official state map shows US-58 staying together (as opposed to I-264, which splits into the one-way pair), but I have little other official info to confirm this.
Detail map of VB can be found here: http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html (http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html)
This was discussed a couple years ago in the Virginia thread starting here. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=294.msg266017#msg266017)
Unless anything has changed from Froggie's statement in that same thread below US 58 still follows Laskin Road:
Quote from: froggie on December 20, 2013, 08:09:22 AM
Last time I was over that way (pre-deployment), it was still under construction. However, since Virginia has not submitted a routing change to AASHTO, nor has their internal documentation noted any differences, it's safe to say that US 58 still follows Laskin Rd and ends at the Laskin Rd/Pacific Ave intersection.
Also there are no US 58 shields to help either:
Quote from: Takumi on December 28, 2013, 01:39:04 PM
I'm in Virginia Beach now, and was at the area in question earlier. No signage of any kind, of course, but it's finished now.
Nothing has changed. Mike and I did a double-check a couple years ago for VHP. Verified it with 2015 VDOT shapefiles...US 58 still follows Laskin and ends at Laskin and Pacific. Google is in error on this. OSM is still correct.
Quote from: usends on February 14, 2016, 10:28:24 PM
I just noticed, according to Google Maps, that US 58 no longer continues to the east end of Laskin Blvd. Rather, a few blocks west of the shore, there's a roundabout, and US 58 is shown with what looks like a split terminus, using the blocks on either side of Laskin (30th and 32nd). However, neither of those roads are one-way, so I'm not sure whether Google is correct. Not surprisingly, there doesn't appear to be any US 58 signs posted, until west of the roundabout.
When did this change happen? And is there anything official from VDOT that spells out what happens with US 58 at its east end?
This roundabout intersection is kind of crazy. IMO, it only makes sense if they actually divert all of Laskin's traffic onto 30th and 32nd (as one-way couplets) and pedestrianize (or severely limit the traffic on) the eastern part of Laskin.
Quote from: mrsman on February 15, 2016, 08:34:53 AM
This roundabout intersection is kind of crazy. IMO, it only makes sense if they actually divert all of Laskin's traffic onto 30th and 32nd (as one-way couplets) and pedestrianize (or severely limit the traffic on) the eastern part of Laskin.
Well, the design certainly does cause the main flow of inbound traffic to end up on 30th (rather than Laskin). If one makes the effort to stay "straight" in order to continue down Laskin, they're faced with a 25 MPH limit, stop signs at every intersection, and a speed hump at a ped crossing.
My question is: what does it mean (in a practical sense) that VDOT still defines Laskin as a highway? Does that mean they are the entity that maintains that road (as opposed to the City of VA Beach)? Did they have to install the stop signs, the speed limit signs, and the speed hump? Or is everything maintained by VA Beach, and the fact that Laskin is a "highway" is pretty meaningless, in the sense that VA Beach can implement whatever it decides is the best traffic solution, without any regard for the fact that VDOT apparently considers Laskin to have a special designation?
Quoteeverything maintained by VA Beach, and the fact that Laskin is a "highway" is pretty meaningless, in the sense that VA Beach can implement whatever it decides is the best traffic solution
This, more or less.
Quote from: froggie on February 15, 2016, 10:23:44 AM
Quoteeverything maintained by VA Beach, and the fact that Laskin is a "highway" is pretty meaningless, in the sense that VA Beach can implement whatever it decides is the best traffic solution
This, more or less.
Interesting. So, is it accurate to say that, within the boundaries of Virginia municipalities, VDOT has deferred responsibility for non-interstate highways to the cities? In other words, not only are the cities responsible for highway signage, but they are also responsible for road maintenance, traffic control, etc? Within cities, is there
any aspect of non-interstate highways for which VDOT itself is still responsible?
Per the Jan shapefiles, US 58 is still on Laskin Rd east of the traffic circle.
However, the shapefiles also don't show clearly posted changes to US routes within other independent cities (Fredericksburg, Norfolk, and Winchester) that go back as much as a decade ago.
The current CTB Minutes do not seem to address route changes anymore, so I am pessimistic about ever learning of changes in Virginia anymore unless they go to AASHTO. We are down to noticing in the field a route has been posted differently.
While VDOT doesn't have responsibility for non-interstate primary routes within independent cities, some incorporated towns, and Arlington/Henrico Counties, they do send the $ and there are at least some standards that have to be met. For example, when streetcars were coming to VA 244 in Arlington County VDOT forced the decommissioning of VA 244 in Arlington County.
Mike
Quote from: usends on February 15, 2016, 11:19:46 AM
Interesting. So, is it accurate to say that, within the boundaries of Virginia municipalities, VDOT has deferred responsibility for non-interstate highways to the cities? In other words, not only are the cities responsible for highway signage, but they are also responsible for road maintenance, traffic control, etc? Within cities, is there any aspect of non-interstate highways for which VDOT itself is still responsible?
I do believe that VDOT is still responsible for the maintenance for VA 164 in Suffolk and Portsmouth, since it is a freeway.
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 15, 2016, 12:23:39 PM
Per the Jan shapefiles, US 58 is still on Laskin Rd east of the traffic circle. However, the shapefiles also don't show clearly posted changes to US routes within other independent cities (Fredericksburg, Norfolk, and Winchester) that go back as much as a decade ago.
Yes, it seems to me that VDOT shapefiles, route logs, etc. can't really be relied upon, since VDOT isn't the responsible entity.
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 15, 2016, 12:23:39 PM
The current CTB Minutes do not seem to address route changes anymore, so I am pessimistic about ever learning of changes in Virginia anymore unless they go to AASHTO. We are down to noticing in the field a route has been posted differently.
Exactly. And unfortunately highway signage is not a top priority with some cities (*ahem, VA Beach*). However, if VA Beach
were to sign US 58 from Pacific, I cannot believe that they would direct traffic up Laskin, considering the investments they have made to route traffic
away from Laskin.
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 15, 2016, 12:23:39 PM
While VDOT doesn't have responsibility for non-interstate primary routes within independent cities, some incorporated towns, and Arlington/Henrico Counties, they do send the $ and there are at least some standards that have to be met. For example, when streetcars were coming to VA 244 in Arlington County VDOT forced the decommissioning of VA 244 in Arlington County.
Okay. And I suspect that Laskin east of the roundabout is now an example of a road that no longer meets VDOT standards for highways.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on February 15, 2016, 01:18:45 PM
Quote from: usends on February 15, 2016, 11:19:46 AM
Interesting. So, is it accurate to say that, within the boundaries of Virginia municipalities, VDOT has deferred responsibility for non-interstate highways to the cities? In other words, not only are the cities responsible for highway signage, but they are also responsible for road maintenance, traffic control, etc? Within cities, is there any aspect of non-interstate highways for which VDOT itself is still responsible?
I do believe that VDOT is still responsible for the maintenance for VA 164 in Suffolk and Portsmouth, since it is a freeway.
True although the traffic log suggests that at least some freeways (for example, US 29 Bus in Lynchburg) within independent cities are not maintained by VDOT...
Mike
Quote from: usendsInteresting. So, is it accurate to say that, within the boundaries of Virginia municipalities, VDOT has deferred responsibility for non-interstate highways to the cities? In other words, not only are the cities responsible for highway signage, but they are also responsible for road maintenance, traffic control, etc? Within cities, is there any aspect of non-interstate highways for which VDOT itself is still responsible?
As Mike alluded to, VDOT's responsibility is to disburse primary system money and to make sure that established standards are being met for roadway projects. Regarding your last comment, there is nothing in the standards that says a roadway cannot go on a road diet, which is effectively what happened to the east end of Laskin Rd.
Is not Business US 58 also not signed as well in VA Beach? I know they did not sub standardize VA Beach Blvd. like they did Laskin Road, but the fact is THEY DO NOT SIGN ANY OF ITS ROUTES! Even US 60 is hardly signed on Pacific, and the old US 60 Business on Atlantic Avenue is no longer signed for sure.
However, back in the 80's the intersection of Laskin Road and Pacific Avenue did have some cut out shields on the SE Corner. It showed US 60 going both ways on Pacific with individual shields on a white post (the original VDOT type of posts) and an East US 58 shield for its last block to Atlantic with a straight arrow. Then at Atlantic an erroneous US 60 shield with a double headed arrow was present at what was then implied terminus of US 58.
I do not think VA Beach cares about the routes except for I-264 and even before that interstate was extended eastward from its parent, it did not even feature a VA 44 shield at the intersection of US 60 and 22nd Street back then too. In fact there was a LGS at VA Beach Boulevard both ways on Pacific stating that ROUTE 44 and ROUTE 64 was to use VA Beach Blvd to where it meets the former toll road to get to it and the interstate.
Virginia Beach IMO is bad with signs and gotten worse as they removed what little signs they did have. However, Baltimore and DC suck with following routes as Albany, NY is another one. The problem with big cities is that locals call route numbers by the street name with some not even aware of what numbers they carry like some do here in Orlando.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 16, 2016, 08:41:51 PM
Is not Business US 58 also not signed as well in VA Beach? I know they did not sub standardize VA Beach Blvd. like they did Laskin Road, but the fact is THEY DO NOT SIGN ANY OF ITS ROUTES! Even US 60 is hardly signed on Pacific, and the old US 60 Business on Atlantic Avenue is no longer signed for sure.
Is there even one reassurance assembly on Laskin Road westbound before the partial "bump" interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8444317,-76.0401583,3a,66.8y,248.08h,84.12t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stA0L2RcEmjS2HCxdfqVr8Q!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) with I-264? Last time I was down that way, I do not think I saw one.
According to GSV, there is
one on the eastbound side here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8507958,-76.0215922,3a,66.8y,75.06h,74.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sc5ViDLaB_x6gDu2WCAzVPA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) between the "bump" and Oceanfront.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 16, 2016, 08:41:51 PM
Virginia Beach IMO is bad with signs and gotten worse as they removed what little signs they did have. However, Baltimore and DC suck with following routes as Albany, NY is another one. The problem with big cities is that locals call route numbers by the street name with some not even aware of what numbers they carry like some do here in Orlando.
IMO, this is a lack of leadership on FHWA's part. They have to lower the boom (maybe through MUTCD provisions combined with reduced federal dollars and pressure on state DOTs) that signing route numbers is
not optional, even for incorporated municipalities.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 16, 2016, 10:28:20 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 16, 2016, 08:41:51 PM
Is not Business US 58 also not signed as well in VA Beach? I know they did not sub standardize VA Beach Blvd. like they did Laskin Road, but the fact is THEY DO NOT SIGN ANY OF ITS ROUTES! Even US 60 is hardly signed on Pacific, and the old US 60 Business on Atlantic Avenue is no longer signed for sure.
Is there even one reassurance assembly on Laskin Road westbound before the partial "bump" interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8444317,-76.0401583,3a,66.8y,248.08h,84.12t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stA0L2RcEmjS2HCxdfqVr8Q!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) with I-264? Last time I was down that way, I do not think I saw one.
According to GSV, there is one on the eastbound side here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8507958,-76.0215922,3a,66.8y,75.06h,74.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sc5ViDLaB_x6gDu2WCAzVPA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) between the "bump" and Oceanfront.
Oddly enough, despite that Virginia Beach does sign US 58 from other roads; the easternmost occurrence of this is the intersection of Laskin Road and Birdneck Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8543714,-75.9953284,3a,75y,345.79h,76.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swzbDqJgvxlvoi2L5bxfkbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on February 16, 2016, 10:44:44 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 16, 2016, 10:28:20 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 16, 2016, 08:41:51 PM
Is not Business US 58 also not signed as well in VA Beach? I know they did not sub standardize VA Beach Blvd. like they did Laskin Road, but the fact is THEY DO NOT SIGN ANY OF ITS ROUTES! Even US 60 is hardly signed on Pacific, and the old US 60 Business on Atlantic Avenue is no longer signed for sure.
Is there even one reassurance assembly on Laskin Road westbound before the partial "bump" interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8444317,-76.0401583,3a,66.8y,248.08h,84.12t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stA0L2RcEmjS2HCxdfqVr8Q!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) with I-264? Last time I was down that way, I do not think I saw one.
According to GSV, there is one on the eastbound side here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8507958,-76.0215922,3a,66.8y,75.06h,74.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sc5ViDLaB_x6gDu2WCAzVPA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) between the "bump" and Oceanfront.
Oddly enough, despite that Virginia Beach does sign US 58 from other roads; the easternmost occurrence of this is the intersection of Laskin Road and Birdneck Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8543714,-75.9953284,3a,75y,345.79h,76.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swzbDqJgvxlvoi2L5bxfkbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
That is indeed strange. It used to be that route numbers on roads in Virginia Beach were as good as in Fairfax County (no secondary system roads in Virginia Beach, of course), but now they seem to be neglecting primary system route number signs much like Falls Church and Alexandria and other municipalities.
It appears US 58 Business is no longer signed anywhere along it in either direction once you leave US 58, nor from any cross streets that I could find. They did however put up a correct shield VA 408 sign on WB US 58 Business, years after VA 408 was decommissioned, that is in current GMSV.
By the time I lived there in 1991-93, the cutouts described by roadman65 were reduced to a single US 58 cutout on Atlantic SB and a US 60 west cutout on Pacific NB where it met Atlantic and the north end of the once-posted but unofficial US 60 Business. US 58 and US 60 were posted at the Laskin/Pacific intersection. There were also a few white border signs in Virginia Beach for US 58, VA 44, SR 615, and SR 806. I'm pretty sure 58 Business was posted in a few places (though not at Pacific) when I lived there.
Mike
I remember on VA Secondary 615 there was in 1982 erroneous US 58 shields northbound at VA Beach Blvd. Latest GSV shows that to be unsigned. It might of not been Business US 58 signing, but at least back then.
You figure with it being a tourist area, that the city would sign all the US and Secondary routes at least near the oceanfront. The fact is that old signs were once there, that they did not even replace them when their cycle was up, but chose not to install new one's in its place shows total carelessness.
That is not only in VA Beach either, Norfolk does a poor job of signing US 60 through the junction of VA 168 now that you have to zig zag due to that continuous curb preventing you from making that left right after the VA 168 merge. Plus Fredericksburg still signing the business routes of US 1 and US 17 as mainline while the actual US 1 mainline was STILL US 1 Alternate. The last time I saw that was 2003 more than 30 years after the alternate route was decommissioned and still in 2013 ten years later you have this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.3186123,-77.4719928,3a,75y,208.82h,89.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssebqdsIY7shFaaDeJrceOg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
thus making it over 40 years of error.
QuoteYou figure with it being a tourist area, that the city would sign all the US and Secondary routes at least near the oceanfront.
Not really necessary, contrary to some belief. Most tourists use 264 to get to the Oceanfront, which is well signed. Once on the Oceanfront, route numbers aren't really necessary because you're only dealing with Atlantic Ave, Pacific Ave, and the numbered streets that begin at Rudee Inlet. If people can't figure that simple of a street grid system out, they probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.
QuoteNorfolk does a poor job of signing US 60 through the junction of VA 168 now that you have to zig zag due to that continuous curb preventing you from making that left right after the VA 168 merge.
Unless signs have gone missing since they made the change (about a dozen years ago), I would disagree with this. Signage as recently as 2 years ago made it pretty clear where you had to turn to continue on WB 60.
Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2016, 07:29:12 AM
QuoteYou figure with it being a tourist area, that the city would sign all the US and Secondary routes at least near the oceanfront.
Not really necessary, contrary to some belief. Most tourists use 264 to get to the Oceanfront, which is well signed. Once on the Oceanfront, route numbers aren't really necessary because you're only dealing with Atlantic Ave, Pacific Ave, and the numbered streets that begin at Rudee Inlet. If people can't figure that simple of a street grid system out, they probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.
QuoteNorfolk does a poor job of signing US 60 through the junction of VA 168 now that you have to zig zag due to that continuous curb preventing you from making that left right after the VA 168 merge.
Unless signs have gone missing since they made the change (about a dozen years ago), I would disagree with this. Signage as recently as 2 years ago made it pretty clear where you had to turn to continue on WB 60.
GMSV shows no indication US 60 west requires leaving Ocean View, although Mason Creek is well posted for US 60 both directions, as well as Tidewater Dr NB telling you how to get to US 60 east.
The US 1 ALT Fredericksburg BGS is still there as of this morning. But this is the only erroneous posting involving US 1 in the city. US 17 Business is no longer posted at all with US 1 Business other than at the north end and there are US 17 mainline shields along US 1 mainline near VA 3 (this has never been part of US 17-anything)
Mike
I do remember US 58 Business being signed on a BGS at the eastbound Laskin Road and Virginia Beach Boulevard split.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on February 17, 2016, 11:28:01 AM
I do remember US 58 Business being signed on a BGS at the eastbound Laskin Road and Virginia Beach Boulevard split.
This is still the case
Quote from: Mapmikey on February 17, 2016, 06:18:31 AM
It appears US 58 Business is no longer signed anywhere along it in either direction once you leave US 58, nor from any cross streets that I could find. They did however put up a correct shield VA 408 sign on WB US 58 Business, years after VA 408 was decommissioned, that is in current GMSV.
By the time I lived there in 1991-93, the cutouts described by roadman65 were reduced to a single US 58 cutout on Atlantic SB and a US 60 west cutout on Pacific NB where it met Atlantic and the north end of the once-posted but unofficial US 60 Business. US 58 and US 60 were posted at the Laskin/Pacific intersection. There were also a few white border signs in Virginia Beach for US 58, VA 44, SR 615, and SR 806. I'm pretty sure 58 Business was posted in a few places (though not at Pacific) when I lived there.
Mike
Well, apparently sometime before September 2011 an erroneous US 58 (non-Business) posting appeared near the beginning of US 58 Business at the intersection of Virginia Beach Blvd and one of Laskin Rd's frontage roads...
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8440749,-76.0376744,3a,75y,178.49h,75.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smewETtm4TwFwayQUp9rQNA!2e0!5s20150901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 16, 2016, 10:28:20 PM
According to GSV, there is one on the eastbound side here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8507958,-76.0215922,3a,66.8y,75.06h,74.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sc5ViDLaB_x6gDu2WCAzVPA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) between the "bump" and Oceanfront.
There's another one eastbound just past the Laskin/Birdneck intersection - it's obscured by trees on GSV. This one appears to be the last US 58 reassurance prior to the Oceanfront.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on February 17, 2016, 01:05:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 16, 2016, 10:28:20 PM
According to GSV, there is one on the eastbound side here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8507958,-76.0215922,3a,66.8y,75.06h,74.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sc5ViDLaB_x6gDu2WCAzVPA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) between the "bump" and Oceanfront.
There's another one eastbound just past the Laskin/Birdneck intersection - it's obscured by trees on GSV. This one appears to be the last US 58 reassurance prior to the Oceanfront.
I will take your word on that - I suspect you are in Virginia Beach much more frequently than I.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 17, 2016, 04:10:08 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on February 17, 2016, 01:05:26 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 16, 2016, 10:28:20 PM
According to GSV, there is one on the eastbound side here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Virginia+Beach,+VA/@36.8507958,-76.0215922,3a,66.8y,75.06h,74.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sc5ViDLaB_x6gDu2WCAzVPA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x89bac1e8fc1527a7:0x4161080a32e0173) between the "bump" and Oceanfront.
There's another one eastbound just past the Laskin/Birdneck intersection - it's obscured by trees on GSV. This one appears to be the last US 58 reassurance prior to the Oceanfront.
I will take your word on that - I suspect you are in Virginia Beach much more frequently than I.
Actually, I'm not there very often, but I just forgot to link to the GSV image of it. :P
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8549535,-75.9948525,3a,37.5y,85.33h,86.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFxtVz8cFvwgKymSkQV0D7Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 16, 2016, 11:18:50 PM
...It used to be that route numbers on roads in Virginia Beach were as good as in Fairfax County (no secondary system roads in Virginia Beach, of course), but now they seem to be neglecting primary system route number signs much like Falls Church and Alexandria and other municipalities.
Are there any other state DOTs that delegate such a high level of responsibility to municipalities?
Quote from: usends on February 24, 2016, 08:45:19 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 16, 2016, 11:18:50 PM
...It used to be that route numbers on roads in Virginia Beach were as good as in Fairfax County (no secondary system roads in Virginia Beach, of course), but now they seem to be neglecting primary system route number signs much like Falls Church and Alexandria and other municipalities.
Are there any other state DOTs that delegate such a high level of responsibility to municipalities?
Maryland does - to its one independent city, Baltimore.
New York does - to New York City.
this appears to be the first westbound US 58 shield https://www.google.com/maps/@36.858088,-75.9852146,3a,44y,272.22h,86.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH89xp9LQEDCHjbN3PMORjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
this is the last eastbound one
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8550071,-75.9947485,3a,75.6y,108.24h,76.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUp7aLZk1YDn3Un-lG23L_Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2016, 07:29:12 AM
QuoteYou figure with it being a tourist area, that the city would sign all the US and Secondary routes at least near the oceanfront.
Not really necessary, contrary to some belief. Most tourists use 264 to get to the Oceanfront, which is well signed. Once on the Oceanfront, route numbers aren't really necessary because you're only dealing with Atlantic Ave, Pacific Ave, and the numbered streets that begin at Rudee Inlet. If people can't figure that simple of a street grid system out, they probably shouldn't be driving in the first place.
QuoteNorfolk does a poor job of signing US 60 through the junction of VA 168 now that you have to zig zag due to that continuous curb preventing you from making that left right after the VA 168 merge.
Unless signs have gone missing since they made the change (about a dozen years ago), I would disagree with this. Signage as recently as 2 years ago made it pretty clear where you had to turn to continue on WB 60.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9575387,-76.255692,3a,75y,328.75h,81.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seLRYLIj8QuSAdKhaDs6ldQ!2e0!5s20150901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
I only see a sign for I-64.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9570725,-76.2569934,3a,75y,238.1h,69.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDCUrkwz8iyUJBDRmzSJLIQ!2e0!5s20150901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
However Mason Creek Road does have something, even if its erroneous.
Still overall the signage sucks. No mention of junctioning VA 168 and going the other way they never replaced the overhead assembly telling EB US 60 to exit itself. Yes the ground mounted erroneous VA 60 shield does do something, but still not 100 percent IMO.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 25, 2016, 04:09:38 AM
Still overall the signage sucks. No mention of junctioning VA 168 and going the other way they never replaced the overhead assembly telling EB US 60 to exit itself. Yes the ground mounted erroneous VA 60 shield does do something, but still not 100 percent IMO.
This seems to be more and more of a problem in independent cities (and some towns) across Virginia. The signage of primary system highways in some Virginia cities is beyond awful, with Virginia and U.S. route road signs are missing for long distances (including turns), but in other municipalities, the signage is great.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 25, 2016, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 25, 2016, 04:09:38 AM
Still overall the signage sucks. No mention of junctioning VA 168 and going the other way they never replaced the overhead assembly telling EB US 60 to exit itself. Yes the ground mounted erroneous VA 60 shield does do something, but still not 100 percent IMO.
This seems to be more and more of a problem in independent cities (and some towns) across Virginia. The signage of primary system highways in some Virginia cities is beyond awful, with Virginia and U.S. route road signs are missing for long distances (including turns), but in other municipalities, the signage is great.
I'd argue that even the best signage in Norfolk or Virginia Beach is still worse than most of the stuff in the "Worst of Road Signs" thread.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 25, 2016, 09:01:07 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on February 25, 2016, 04:09:38 AM
Still overall the signage sucks. No mention of junctioning VA 168 and going the other way they never replaced the overhead assembly telling EB US 60 to exit itself. Yes the ground mounted erroneous VA 60 shield does do something, but still not 100 percent IMO.
This seems to be more and more of a problem in independent cities (and some towns) across Virginia. The signage of primary system highways in some Virginia cities is beyond awful, with Virginia and U.S. route road signs are missing for long distances (including turns), but in other municipalities, the signage is great.
Philly has this issue as well with not properly signing state and US routes within the city. Reassurance signs are few and far between esp with routes that go through more sketchy neighborhoods and good luck with turn off signs cause they aren't the most reliable either. The city has gotten better with them recently but it's still bad. You deserve some kind of prize if you can fully navigate US 13 through the city without a GPS and without getting lost.
Quote from: ekt8750 on February 26, 2016, 12:07:57 PM
Philly has this issue as well with not properly signing state and US routes within the city. Reassurance signs are few and far between esp with routes that go through more sketchy neighborhoods and good luck with turn off signs cause they aren't the most reliable either. The city has gotten better with them recently but it's still bad. You deserve some kind of prize if you can fully navigate US 13 through the city without a GPS and without getting lost.
The District of Columbia is also very bad in this regard.
Try following U.S. 1, U.S. 1 Alternate (not signed
at all in D.C. any longer), U.S. 50 or U.S. 29 across D.C. If you do not know those routes, you are out of luck.
Getting back to Virginia. crossing the City of Alexandria by way of U.S. 1 only works because there are really no turns required. Not because it is well signed.
Va. 338 (Hillwood Avenue) in the City of Falls Church is totally unsigned within its limits.
Well, even though Va Bch should sign their highways better, one can say that the missing signs is not so critical since it is the end of highway 58, 60, and 58 business. You don't have to be guided through as carefully as if it were a town in the middle of a highway's routing.
Still it would be nice to know where on US 60 you run into both US 58 and US 58 Business.
Quote from: mrsman on February 26, 2016, 04:55:30 PM
Well, even though Va Bch should sign their highways better, one can say that the missing signs is not so critical since it is the end of highway 58, 60, and 58 business. You don't have to be guided through as carefully as if it were a town in the middle of a highway's routing.
Yeah, unless your destination is southern Spain, northern Morocco or maybe Gibraltar (and your vehicle is seaworthy), your are probably not going east of Oceanfront.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on February 26, 2016, 06:05:34 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 26, 2016, 04:55:30 PM
Well, even though Va Bch should sign their highways better, one can say that the missing signs is not so critical since it is the end of highway 58, 60, and 58 business. You don't have to be guided through as carefully as if it were a town in the middle of a highway's routing.
Yeah, unless your destination is southern Spain, northern Morocco or maybe Gibraltar (and your vehicle is seaworthy), your are probably not going east of Oceanfront.
I was over in the area just a couple months ago and I don't remember the lack of signing of US 58 or US 60 to be a problem. It was fairly easy to get from VB Blvd or Laskin Street to the shoreline.
I specifically did want to travel to the east end of US 60 for roadgeeky purposes to denote that I have been at the eastern and western ends of historic US 60. Growing up in Los Angeles, I have been to many of the historic ends of US 60 many times, whether it is the western end of the Pomona Freeway (now CA-60) or the western end of the San Bernardino Freeway where it runs into US 101. [I'm sure I've driven over some of the pre-freeway routings of the western terminus as well.] No big mention that the end of US 60 is the end of a national highway that reaches all the way to Arizona in VB, even though there is a mention of Sacramento in Ocean city for US 50.
[As a child, I know that several times I was a passenger along I-10 between Phoenix and LA, so I passed through where US 60 currently ends at I-10, but I doubt that we got off at the US 60 exit for any reason, so I was never on the western end of current US 60.]
I have no plans to clinch the entire US 60, but it is nice to mark the endpoints.
It may not be critical yes, but ideally it should be signed. IMO it would be nice and consistent as well.
Quote from: Thing 342 on February 14, 2016, 11:44:03 PM
Detail map of VB can be found here: http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html (http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html)
Couple questions about that map: first, just south of the last US 60 shield, the road is shown to bifurcate and then reconnect just north of Rudee Inlet. What is that supposed to represent? If it's supposed to be Atlantic and Pacific, it's misleading, because Atlantic does not reconnect at its south end.
Secondly, do VDOT shapefiles still indicate that US 60 goes south on Pacific, then east on 17th, then south on Atlantic to a dead-end at Rudee Inlet? If so, then this map does not agree with their route description.
You have to consider matters of scale. There is a way to connect from Atlantic back to Pacific via 5th St. But at the scale of the map that Thing posted, you're not going to get the fine detail of the Oceanfront that you're looking for.
Quote from: usends on April 08, 2016, 04:24:37 PM
Quote from: Thing 342 on February 14, 2016, 11:44:03 PM
Detail map of VB can be found here: http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html (http://www.virginiadot.org/VDOT/Travel/Virginia_Beach_Map.html)
Couple questions about that map: first, just south of the last US 60 shield, the road is shown to bifurcate and then reconnect just north of Rudee Inlet. What is that supposed to represent? If it's supposed to be Atlantic and Pacific, it's misleading, because Atlantic does not reconnect at its south end.
Secondly, do VDOT shapefiles still indicate that US 60 goes south on Pacific, then east on 17th, then south on Atlantic to a dead-end at Rudee Inlet? If so, then this map does not agree with their route description.
Shapefiles still show US 60 using 17th to Atlantic south to the end...
Mike
Quote from: Mapmikey on April 08, 2016, 11:02:06 PM
Shapefiles still show US 60 using 17th to Atlantic south to the end...
Does VDOT maintain its GIS data within the boundaries of independent cities? Or is that another function to which they do not allocate resources?
Presumably they are. If not yet, they (and all state DOTs for that matter) are required to move in that direction due to MAP-21 requirements, as I learned about at a GIS conference 2 years ago.
Quote from: froggie on April 09, 2016, 01:55:52 PM
Presumably they are...
Well, let me put it this way: are there any
examples demonstrating that VDOT is indeed updating their data for independent cities? The examples I'm aware of suggest that they are
not updating it with respect to recent changes in how the highways are signed. And even not-so-recent changes: VA Beach, Norfolk, Fredericksburg, Winchester...
I don't recall US 58 ever being signed at the end by Neptune Park. US 60 isn't signed there either.
Should they be?
Why don't you just ask the Virginia Beach Public Works Department or whatever entity for the city maintains the roadways and ask about the road signage. It would be interesting to see what they have to say.
Quote from: dvferyance on July 05, 2016, 05:19:33 PM
I don't recall US 58 ever being signed at the end by Neptune Park. US 60 isn't signed there either.
Both were signed at the Laskin-Pacific intersection when I lived there 1991-93. There is an internet picture of this out there somewhere and I can't seem to find it.
There was also a US 58 cutout on SB Atlantic until 1992. Never seen a picture of that though...
I remember on Laskin in 1985, where Laskin at Pacific had those cutouts and again at the end of Laskin at Atlantic with a US 60 shield (obviously in error as that was the BR) and a double headed arrow beneath. No end sign as it still showed US 58 east going the final block to Atlantic at the actual US 60 junction with an East and straight ahead arrow in between the two east and west US 60 shields on the SE corner post intersection.
My take is that maybe they should do what Caltrans would have done here and truncate it back to Bowers Hill where it ends being a highway and starts being arterial for the metro area. Yes if Virginia was California it there would be no US 58 in the Hampton Roads City, however all independent cities would be under one county in the Hampton Roads area, and US 60 would be not in Virginia making the part following I-64 in the mountains west of Lexington a county road, and independent US 60 from Lexington to Richmond another state route number. Then another state route number to Newport News and end there, with no route numbers through Hampton, Norfolk, and VA Beach.
I would not, though, support US 60 being truncated to WV, as that could stay even though its not well signed in VA Beach, especially the waterfront. That should indeed remain.