What actually is a Super-2 highway?

[webny99]

When I hear super 2 I think of a 2 lane fully controlled access highway like US 6 in Cape Cod. Apparently, some disagree with me.

US 6 on Cape Cod is a divided highway. Super-2's certainly don't have to be divided; see US 7 in southern Vermont, which has full access control despite being undivided, and we can all agree is a super-2.

Yeah, this idea of a super-2 being just an unlimited access two-lane road with wide shoulders seems silly to me.

Who said anything about unlimited access?  Just not fully controlled access.

NY 104 is a good example of this, as there is access at intersections but no direct driveway access.

[Rothman]

Yeah, this idea of a super-2 being just an unlimited access two-lane road with wide shoulders seems silly to me.

Who said anything about unlimited access?  Just not fully controlled access.

What a lousy definition.

[kphoger]

Yeah, this idea of a super-2 being just an unlimited access two-lane road with wide shoulders seems silly to me.

Who said anything about unlimited access?  Just not fully controlled access.

What a lousy definition.

See the word "actually" in the thread title?  Lousy definitions are still definitions, so long as they're actual.

[Rothman]

Yeah, this idea of a super-2 being just an unlimited access two-lane road with wide shoulders seems silly to me.

Who said anything about unlimited access?  Just not fully controlled access.

What a lousy definition.

See the word "actually" in the thread title?  Lousy definitions are still definitions, so long as they're actual.

*citation needed*

[kphoger]

Yeah, this idea of a super-2 being just an unlimited access two-lane road with wide shoulders seems silly to me.

Who said anything about unlimited access?  Just not fully controlled access.

What a lousy definition.

See the word "actually" in the thread title?  Lousy definitions are still definitions, so long as they're actual.

*citation needed*

I mean, I already linked to the previous discussion, which had citations, but OK . . .

A super two highway is a two‐lane road built to high standards, typically including partial control of access, occasional passing lanes and hard shoulders. It is often built for eventual conversion to freeway or at least divided highway status once traffic volumes rise.

And, while we're at it, the official definition by TxDOT doesn't mention access control at all.

[Rothman]

And yet, I don't believe NYSDOT defines the term at all.

So, there's no standardization.

[J N Winkler]

And yet, I don't believe NYSDOT defines the term at all.

So, there's no standardization.

Yet NYSDOT maintains facilities that meet both of the competing definitions.  This could be similar to "guide rail" or "maintenance and protection of traffic."

[roadman65]

Also you have roads that were built as Super Twos but later converted to normal two lane at grade facilities.

US 1 in Bel Air, MD is been changed. Built as a future freeway, it was given an at grade with MD 24 and later US 1 Business at its former north end which had stubs for continuing around Hickory , MD now an at grade bypass.

Plus FL 407 in Titusville, Florida has been given at grades at I-95 and a side road near FL 405 to serve a business/ industrial park as it was built to be the northern spur of the Beeline Expressway toll road to access the KSC.

[Rothman]

And yet, I don't believe NYSDOT defines the term at all.

So, there's no standardization.

Yet NYSDOT maintains facilities that meet both of the competing definitions.  This could be similar to "guide rail" or "maintenance and protection of traffic."

*shrug*

Existence of facilities that meet others' definitions does not indicate standardization.

[CapeCodder]

I take a Super-2 to be a two lane highway with interchanges. Examples that immediately come to mind are US 6 here on Cape Cod (Suicide Alley) and the Old Monroe bypass on MO-79.

[RoadWarrior56]

Of a historical note (and I do have a good memory), up to one-half of I-20 between Vicksburg and Jackson, MS was initially constructed as a Super-2 and signed as US 80.  One side was constructed to accommodate 2-way traffic, but there were interchanges and grade separations.  I presume it was staged construction of the ultimate I-20 interstate alignment, as the full four-lane facility was completed by the end of the 1960's and US 80 was re-routed back to its original alignment.

[roadman65]

Also I-70 in Utah was built as Super Two across the Swells and was even numbered as US 50, but once it got widened it remained as US 50 and still to this moment.

Has anyone mentioned the West Virginia Turnpike? It was a super two with a closed ticketing toll system when it opened originally.

[MATraveler128]

I hear I-91 in northern Vermont was built as a super 2 back in the day. As was I-95 in northern Maine, specifically north of Bangor.

[roadman65]

Also US 1 in NC from Sanford to Cary was a super two, but got widened to four lanes in 2000. Now it's a full freeway from Sanford to north of Raleigh.

[kphoger]

Existence of facilities that meet others' definitions does not indicate standardization.

Right.  The official definition of "super two" varies from state to state, and most states don't appear to have defined the term at all.

But on the other hand, I don't think anyone has yet provided any evidence that a single state's official (or even unofficial) definition of "super two" matches what most roadgeeks seem to think it means.  That is to say, I don't recall having seen—either in the previous thread or in this one—even a single DOT document that defines "super two" as a two-lane freeway.  Which is to say, if any standardization can be deduced at all, it is that your definition is wrong.

[vdeane]

Existence of facilities that meet others' definitions does not indicate standardization.

Right.  The official definition of "super two" varies from state to state, and most states don't appear to have defined the term at all.

But on the other hand, I don't think anyone has yet provided any evidence that a single state's official (or even unofficial) definition of "super two" matches what most roadgeeks seem to think it means.  That is to say, I don't recall having seen—either in the previous thread or in this one—even a single DOT document that defines "super two" as a two-lane freeway.  Which is to say, if any standardization can be deduced at all, it is that your definition is wrong.

The roadgeek definition might have arisen independently.  I tend to think of super-2 as a roadgeek term, since I first encountered it on the MTR FAQ.  I'm not sure if I was ever aware that some DOTs use it in an official capacity until one of the previous rounds of this debate.

[Life in Paradise]

Existence of facilities that meet others' definitions does not indicate standardization.

Right.  The official definition of "super two" varies from state to state, and most states don't appear to have defined the term at all.

But on the other hand, I don't think anyone has yet provided any evidence that a single state's official (or even unofficial) definition of "super two" matches what most roadgeeks seem to think it means.  That is to say, I don't recall having seen—either in the previous thread or in this one—even a single DOT document that defines "super two" as a two-lane freeway.  Which is to say, if any standardization can be deduced at all, it is that your definition is wrong.

The roadgeek definition might have arisen independently.  I tend to think of super-2 as a roadgeek term, since I first encountered it on the MTR FAQ.  I'm not sure if I was ever aware that some DOTs use it in an official capacity until one of the previous rounds of this debate.

Indiana used the term "Super two" back in the late 70s and early 80s, and I believe that they still use it today.  It was considered to be a two lane road that was most likely a replacement road that had gentle curves rather than sharp, wide paved shoulders and limited access, although there were at grade intersections although selectively spaced.  Southern Indiana examples are US 231 north of Huntingburg to the south of Jasper, IN, IN-37 from I-64 to IN-237 north of Tell City, IN 37 from I-64 to Eckerty, and IN 145 from IN-164 to just south of French Lick.  You could also include IN 162 on the south side of Jasper, IN.  One other super two comes to mind, US-50's bypass of North Vernon, IN.  OK, I'm done for now.

[J N Winkler]

The roadgeek definition might have arisen independently.  I tend to think of super-2 as a roadgeek term, since I first encountered it on the MTR FAQ.  I'm not sure if I was ever aware that some DOTs use it in an official capacity until one of the previous rounds of this debate.

I was definitely aware of Super Two long before I discovered the road enthusiast community through MTR.  I originally learned it from my father, who used it in reference to facilities like the two-lane segments of US 54 that do not have full control of access.  I suspect he learned it from newspaper articles, the authors of which first heard it from KDOT's media-relations personnel.

I did do some digging in NYSDOT's Highway Design Manual last night (necessarily shallow, since it is a large Web publication about two or three links deep and I had other things going on), and did not find a single instance of Super Two or Super 2 in the chapters in which it would logically occur.  As I pointed out above, that doesn't necessarily mean such facilities don't exist in New York--far from it--but it does suggest the design processes that result in them don't employ those terms, which also don't propagate into the public consciousness through engineers talking with PR people, PR people talking to reporters, and reporters writing articles that are published in local newspapers.

I also checked the 2011 edition of the AASHTO Green Book and didn't find a single instance of Super Two.  But, as Kphoger points out, this does not mean the term doesn't have a degree of standardization among the state DOTs that use it.

The part that everyone seems to get stuck on is the degree of control of access.  It is not wrong to describe a two-lane freeway as a Super Two, but it is wrong to assert that a two-lane highway with some degree of at-grade access can't be a Super Two.

[Rothman]

The roadgeek definition might have arisen independently.  I tend to think of super-2 as a roadgeek term, since I first encountered it on the MTR FAQ.  I'm not sure if I was ever aware that some DOTs use it in an official capacity until one of the previous rounds of this debate.

I was definitely aware of Super Two long before I discovered the road enthusiast community through MTR.  I originally learned it from my father, who used it in reference to facilities like the two-lane segments of US 54 that do not have full control of access.  I suspect he learned it from newspaper articles, the authors of which first heard it from KDOT's media-relations personnel.

I did do some digging in NYSDOT's Highway Design Manual last night (necessarily shallow, since it is a large Web publication about two or three links deep and I had other things going on), and did not find a single instance of Super Two or Super 2 in the chapters in which it would logically occur.  As I pointed out above, that doesn't necessarily mean such facilities don't exist in New York--far from it--but it does suggest the design processes that result in them don't employ those terms, which also don't propagate into the public consciousness through engineers talking with PR people, PR people talking to reporters, and reporters writing articles that are published in local newspapers.

I also checked the 2011 edition of the AASHTO Green Book and didn't find a single instance of Super Two.  But, as Kphoger points out, this does not mean the term doesn't have a degree of standardization among the state DOTs that use it.

The part that everyone seems to get stuck on is the degree of control of access.  It is not wrong to describe a two-lane freeway as a Super Two, but it is wrong to assert that a two-lane highway with some degree of at-grade access can't be a Super Two.

Told ya so.

[webny99]

While we're going in circles, does New York even have any two-lane freeways that would meet both the traditional and the roadgeek definition of a super-two? I know we have some with partial access control, but I can't think of any offhand that have full access control. (NY 104 has a single half-diamond at NY 89, but as a standalone interchange, I don't think it would count as a freeway if it was four lanes divided, so it probably doesn't count here either.)

[hbelkins]

I don't think I've ever heard the term "super-2" used officially in Kentucky.

[vdeane]

While we're going in circles, does New York even have any two-lane freeways that would meet both the traditional and the roadgeek definition of a super-two? I know we have some with partial access control, but I can't think of any offhand that have full access control. (NY 104 has a single half-diamond at NY 89, but as a standalone interchange, I don't think it would count as a freeway if it was four lanes divided, so it probably doesn't count here either.)

NY 5S near Ilion and the Bethpage State Parkway.

[webny99]

While we're going in circles, does New York even have any two-lane freeways that would meet both the traditional and the roadgeek definition of a super-two? I know we have some with partial access control, but I can't think of any offhand that have full access control. (NY 104 has a single half-diamond at NY 89, but as a standalone interchange, I don't think it would count as a freeway if it was four lanes divided, so it probably doesn't count here either.)

NY 5S near Ilion and the Bethpage State Parkway.

Also the Niagara Scenic Parkway from Whirlpool State Park to Lewiston, if you ignore any semblance of standards for the roadway.

But not exactly a robust list either way.

[roadman65]

While we're going in circles, does New York even have any two-lane freeways that would meet both the traditional and the roadgeek definition of a super-two? I know we have some with partial access control, but I can't think of any offhand that have full access control. (NY 104 has a single half-diamond at NY 89, but as a standalone interchange, I don't think it would count as a freeway if it was four lanes divided, so it probably doesn't count here either.)

The I-87 to NY 9N connector in Lake George.
The Exit 12 roadway off I-81 to NY 281 in Homer.

[kphoger]

I have never heard of the term "Super-2" being used in official documentation, or that it's a specific engineering term.

KyTC uses it.  Google turns up a hit in the 2008 standard specifications.

http://transportation.ky.gov/Highway-Design/Standard%20Drawing%20%20Sepia%20PDFs/SEPIA-SERIES-2008.pdf

That is as engineering-related as it gets.

I don't think I've ever heard the term "super-2" used officially in Kentucky.

You should pay better attention to Jonathan, then.  He usually knows what he's talking about.  (To be fair, though, I wish he'd mentioned which page it's on.)