Washington man recieves $18,000 bridge toll bill

[ZLoth]

From UPI:

Washington man receives $18,000 bridge toll bill
The bill accounted for $1,360 in unpaid tolls and over $16,000 in penalties.

A Washington man said he was floored when he received a bill of more than $18,000 for his son's unpaid tolls.
Tom Rose said his son neglected to get a "Good to Go" pass and had crossed the 520 bridge linking Seattle and Bellevue every day for work at his first job, saying he "thought he'd be billed later for it." Rose told King 5 News that his son had been living "hand to mouth" and "thought he was picking the lesser of two evils. He could save up and pay for them later."

FULL ARTICLE HERE

Interesting how a $5 sticker could have prevented some of this problem. Also, hasn't Washington had tolling since 2007? Can't plead ignorance here.

This is why both my mother's car and my car have a FasTrak pass even though we are rarely in the bay area. And, for a planned road trip in August, I believe that Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah have no tolling facilities. Also, I think Colorado only has the E-470 and the Northwesat Parkway... both easy to avoid.

[jeffandnicole]

Because it's a variable toll bridge, let's just say it's $3 with the pass, $5 without. There were $1,360 in unpaid tolls, which is no fewer than 272 crossings. Clearly this person thought he was cheating the system after not getting a bill for a few months.

As far as not receiving a bill, the paper tried to write it up as if the DOT didn't mail it to the correct address. The only known address would be what the person wrote down to register the car, so I'm guessing the person moved and didn't update his info with the DMV.

[oscar]

And, for a planned road trip in August, I believe that Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah have no tolling facilities. Also, I think Colorado only has the E-470 and the Northwest Parkway... both easy to avoid.

Utah, last I checked, had HO/T lanes in the Salt Lake City area.  Also easy to avoid, just stay in the regular lanes.

[ZLoth]

And, for a planned road trip in August, I believe that Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah have no tolling facilities. Also, I think Colorado only has the E-470 and the Northwest Parkway... both easy to avoid.

Utah, last I checked, had HO/T lanes in the Salt Lake City area.  Also easy to avoid, just stay in the regular lanes.

Salr Lake City? No problem.... I'm taking I-70 to US-50 which is much further south.

[UCFKnights]

Can't plead ignorance here.

Back when I was in college, a lot of out of state students with out of state tags always seemed to think they could just run the tolls, and since a ticket didn't come within a month (they heard or seen friends doing it), they would just start doing it as well. For whatever reason, it took E-Pass a good 4-5 months to send the first violation notice/bill for out of state people, so they would rack up quite the penalties. I knew at least 15 people throughout my time who got bills for several thousand.

[US81]

...
As far as not receiving a bill, the paper tried to write it up as if the DOT didn't mail it to the correct address. The only known address would be what the person wrote down to register the car, so I'm guessing the person moved and didn't update his info with the DMV.

I've had that very experience. I bought my house in 2000 and lived in it ever since. I bought my car in 2007 and it has always been registered to me at my home address. Yet in 2011-2012, the Austin toll roads claim to have sent me bills which I never received on three separate occasions (TXDoT twice, CTRMA once).  And, yes, I did call when I did not get the bills in a timely manner. Customers are told to wait for the bill and that they cannot pay with just the license plate and date of occurrence, they also need an account number that is supplied by the pay-by-mail bill generation process.

Why are some people so certain that bureaucracy cannot be inept? Especially if it leads to gain for the institution....

[US 41]

This is why all toll roads need to have cash booths. There are no surprises that way.

Interesting Fact: Did you know that you can pay cash on every single toll road / toll bridge in Mexico? If they can do it why can't we?

[kkt]

This is why all toll roads need to have cash booths. There are no surprises that way.

Interesting Fact: Did you know that you can pay cash on every single toll road / toll bridge in Mexico? If they can do it why can't we?

Um... cuz labor is cheaper there?

[US 41]

This is why all toll roads need to have cash booths. There are no surprises that way.

Interesting Fact: Did you know that you can pay cash on every single toll road / toll bridge in Mexico? If they can do it why can't we?

Um... cuz labor is cheaper there?

Then raise the tolls to pay for the toll collectors.

[UCFKnights]

This is why all toll roads need to have cash booths. There are no surprises that way.

Interesting Fact: Did you know that you can pay cash on every single toll road / toll bridge in Mexico? If they can do it why can't we?

We used to have that same fact here. Modern technology and evolution is the reason why we don't, it just hasn't hit Mexico yet. Dynamic tolling is a relatively new "technology" that is difficult to do without the electronic tolling, and as DOTs desire to use that more, its going to become even more necessary. I'm sure the technology will also get better... there really is no reason we shouldn't be able to go online, enter our license plate, and see and pay our tolls immediately. Or perhaps just use our smartphones to pay, perhaps Bluetooth LE or some other wireless technology can give us a receipt immediately as well.

[seicer]

You can't use the whole "no toll booths" as a plead of ignorance, though. As with Washington and every state with tolled facilities, with toll booths or not, they are well advertised and signed. This particular individual believed that he could just whiz on by and pay later, but that's not how a tolling system works. And considering that the individual/family didn't bother to update the address with the BMV, all of the fault on the delay of the notifications lies with the family. Thankfully, the DOT is working with the family to just pay the fines and not the interest.

There are plenty of cases of folks deliberately violating the law to evade tolls, and then cry about "government overreach"/insert whine when they are faced with a very expensive bill. Some wants to have their roads and not pay their fair share.

[1995hoo]

I've seen complaints from people who think some toll signs that comply with the current MUTCD standards for all-electronic toll facilities and priced managed lanes are confusing because the signs may not say "TOLL ROAD" or "TOLL." Virginia's high-occupancy/toll lanes are like that. It appears to me the MUTCD theory is that the ETC system's logo (E-ZPass, in our case) is supposed to notify drivers it's a toll road. Some people object that you have people who don't know what E-ZPass is, especially people not from this part of the US, and that said people won't know that means it's a toll road. While I can concede there is some level of logic to that argument, at least in principle, I still think the argument fails when there are two or three signs in advance of the tolled facility displaying dollar figures (e.g., on three separate lines, "I-66 $6.45/WESTPARK $9.25/I-495N $12.00").

I think some people want to try to play dumb or to engage in what the legal system calls "willful blindness"–deliberately trying to avoid knowledge of something in order to try to disclaim liability for the consequences of an illegal or tortious act. I agree with Sherman Cahal that in most cases, the argument doesn't work, though I can conceive of some scenarios where it might. The argument is a lot easier to accept for the person who has one or two violations than it is for someone who uses a tolled facility every day and doesn't pay.

I absolutely do not think all toll roads need to have cash booths. I'd like to see more cash facilities eliminated or reduced to a single inconvenient lane off to one side. It's a pain in the arse when some obnoxious cash-paying Luddite tries to cut the line for the cash lines by driving down the E-ZPass Only lane and then trying to shove over at the last second. I think some facilities maintain too many cash lanes for the volume of cash transactions actually conducted compared to the volume of ETC transactions.

[US 41]

My point is that on the US dollar it states something like "Legal tender for all debts, public and private." This isn't true if cash is not accepted on toll roads. Toll roads are directly related to the government, so you'd think they'd abide by their own printed statement.

[UCFKnights]

My point is that on the US dollar it states something like "Legal tender for all debts, public and private." This isn't true if cash is not accepted on toll roads. Toll roads are directly related to the government, so you'd think they'd abide by their own printed statement.

I'm not sure about other states that have started rolling out all electronic tolling, but Florida allows you to go to any service center and some other locations and pay cash for any invoice that you have.

Also, it doesn't become a debt until after it is owed. I recently found out cash is no good as bail money, they wanted money order/bank checks ONLY, but its not a debt, so apparently that is fair game (that seemed crazy to me).

[Kacie Jane]

Same in Washington re: service centers. I don't think saying they must accept it as legal tender necessarily means they must set up toll booths so that you can pay cash the moment you incur the debt.

[SP Cook]

IMHO,

- There is no excuse for having neither a manned or automated (accepting actual money) toll booth or a mandatory transponder system which denies entry for those w/o it.  Reading a plate and purporting to bill someone or another after the fact for an alleged debt violates all common sense, not to mention the basic legal principle of contract consideration.  I have signed no contract with this non-government agreeing to pay it anything for anything. 

- My state, at least, would ignore any request to do anything to my driving rights as a result of an alleged civil debt such as this, and a civil judgment collectable against my property would only be issued by a civil court in my state, requiring the physical appearance of an actual person having actual knowledge of the facts and circumstances.  I would win and they would lose.

- The lawyers suing this outfit will, hopefully, win and receive large amounts of $$. 

[1995hoo]

My point is that on the US dollar it states something like "Legal tender for all debts, public and private." This isn't true if cash is not accepted on toll roads. Toll roads are directly related to the government, so you'd think they'd abide by their own printed statement.

This same pointless argument has been made by the forum conspiracy theorists many times. It's been debunked many times over. There's nothing preventing you from funding your E-ZPass account with cash if you want, although it seems like a stupid waste of time to drive to a service center every time you need to replenish your account.

It's also fair to recognize that the US government has been quite emphatic in noting that no federal statute requires any private entity to accept cash (and I can certainly think of business I've patronized that did not accept cash). If a toll road is privately operated, the operator can say "no cash" (I know of one that requires either E-ZPass or credit/debit outside of rush hours).

[ZLoth]

- There is no excuse for having neither a manned or automated (accepting actual money) toll booth or a mandatory transponder system which denies entry for those w/o it.  Reading a plate and purporting to bill someone or another after the fact for an alleged debt violates all common sense, not to mention the basic legal principle of contract consideration.  I have signed no contract with this non-government agreeing to pay it anything for anything. 

- My state, at least, would ignore any request to do anything to my driving rights as a result of an alleged civil debt such as this, and a civil judgment collectable against my property would only be issued by a civil court in my state, requiring the physical appearance of an actual person having actual knowledge of the facts and circumstances.  I would win and they would lose.

And, someone will cite that driving is a privilege, not a right.

[UCFKnights]

IMHO,

- There is no excuse for having neither a manned or automated (accepting actual money) toll booth or a mandatory transponder system which denies entry for those w/o it.  Reading a plate and purporting to bill someone or another after the fact for an alleged debt violates all common sense, not to mention the basic legal principle of contract consideration.  I have signed no contract with this non-government agreeing to pay it anything for anything. 

- My state, at least, would ignore any request to do anything to my driving rights as a result of an alleged civil debt such as this, and a civil judgment collectable against my property would only be issued by a civil court in my state, requiring the physical appearance of an actual person having actual knowledge of the facts and circumstances.  I would win and they would lose.

- The lawyers suing this outfit will, hopefully, win and receive large amounts of $$.

It is well settled in the courts that having reasonable knowledge or notice of the requirements and proceeding is enough to form a contract. As long as all of the signs that cause you to enter the road are labeled "Toll", you are, in effect, by proceeding onto the road, signing a contract.

Its the same as any restaurant. If you walk in and order food, regardless if they give you a menu, once you eat the food, you owe the money for that food. If they give you a bill at the end that shocks you (some restaurants, especially expensive ones, do not print the prices on the menu), you've already formed your contract and you're obligated to pay. If you walk out on the bill, you are commiting a crime. And as smartphones and electronic payments continue to take off in popularity, we may lose some of the "pay stations" in restaurants too.

[NE2]

What a toll road cannot do is not tell you cash is not accepted, give you no way to turn around when you reach the cashless toll booth, and then charge exorbitant penalties. At the point you reach the toll booth, you're incurred a debt that you cannot discharge without paying it off. If you go to a fast food place and order, then they give you your food and say "we don't accept cash", you have the option of giving them back the food. On the other hand, if you go to a sit-down place and eat, then they can't refuse to accept cash unless they've clearly informed you ahead of time.

[1995hoo]

....  Reading a plate and purporting to bill someone or another after the fact for an alleged debt violates all common sense, not to mention the basic legal principle of contract consideration.  I have signed no contract with this non-government agreeing to pay it anything for anything. 

....

Surely you don't seriously think the legal system will require a "written contract" for these sorts of things. No "written contract" would ever be required for driving on a toll road because there's no situation where simply driving on a toll road would fall within any state's Statute of Frauds. As you well know, there are plenty of situations where you can enter an oral contract or an implied contract. To the extent contract law is relevant at all, driving on a toll road is an example of a situation where oral and implied contracts would govern.

The toll road has a sign before you enter stipulating what form(s) of payment are accepted. If you don't like the conditions, you're free to refrain from using the road, but by driving on the road, you are deemed to have accepted the conditions imposed for using it. Nothing difficult or sinister about it.

[1995hoo]

What a toll road cannot do is not tell you cash is not accepted, give you no way to turn around when you reach the cashless toll booth, and then charge exorbitant penalties. At the point you reach the toll booth, you're incurred a debt that you cannot discharge without paying it off. If you go to a fast food place and order, then they give you your food and say "we don't accept cash", you have the option of giving them back the food. On the other hand, if you go to a sit-down place and eat, then they can't refuse to accept cash unless they've clearly informed you ahead of time.

What they can do is charge you a fee for your causing them to incur the expense of billing you because you refused to pay properly. Then, if you fail to pay the bill, they can usually charge you a penalty if state law allows it.

For example, if it costs them something to pay an employee to figure out your toll, something more to get access to the plate-number database (mtantillo says a number of states charge other states for this, and I have no reason to dispute his comment), and something more to print and mail you a bill, most states quite reasonably allow the toll road operator to impose a fee to help recover the cost. As you know, the Florida's Turnpike "toll-by-plate" system does just that.

Note that in this situation you can still pay cash if you're stupid or stubborn enough to insist on driving somewhere to pay your bill in cash (or, more inexplicably, if you're willing to risk sending cash through the mail).

Incidentally, Virginia has a new option for cash holdouts to replenish their E-ZPasses–apparently now you can get a special card that you link to your account and you then present it at participating grocery stores when you need to add money to your account. The cashier scans the bar code and punches in the amount of money, you pay it, and it gets added to your E-ZPass account. I don't know anyone who has this card, but it's advertised on their website. So there is even less of an excuse for cash lovers to fail to get an E-ZPass!

[NE2]

If they haven't told you ahead of time what types of payment are accepted, having cash ready to hand over is not "refusing to pay properly".

[1995hoo]

If they haven't told you ahead of time what types of payment are accepted, having cash ready to hand over is not "refusing to pay properly".

And just where are you encountering these toll roads that supposedly do not tell you what forms of payment are accepted? Every time I've used a cashless facility, it's been quite clear from signs prior to entering.

I do think it wouldn't be a bad idea for there to be some kind of symbol denoting non-acceptance of cash for people who don't speak English.

[UCFKnights]

If they haven't told you ahead of time what types of payment are accepted, having cash ready to hand over is not "refusing to pay properly".

Is there any toll roads that are not signed NO CASH and then are not willing to accept cash without large fines (although some, perhaps wanting the payment afterwards at some service center)?