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If The 377 Bridge Was As Nice As 75 And 35:

Started by In_Correct, August 08, 2016, 08:00:39 AM

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What Would You Like To See For 377?

Nothing. I Hate Road Improvements.
0 (0%)
A 4 Lane Nondivided Highway.
0 (0%)
A 5 Lane Highway (With Left Turn Lane)
0 (0%)
A 6 Lane Nondivided Highway.
0 (0%)
A 4 Lane Divided Highway.
1 (12.5%)
A 6 Lane Divided Highway.
1 (12.5%)
Controlled Access Divided With Frontage Roads.
4 (50%)
A New Bridge, The Same Width.
0 (0%)
A New Bridge, Much Wider.
2 (25%)
Two Bridges. (Divided Highway Over Red River.)
1 (12.5%)
Three Bridges. (Frontage Roads Extend Into Oklahoma.)
0 (0%)
Four Bridges. (Frontage Roads Extend Into Oklahoma.)
1 (12.5%)
Loop For Gainesville.
2 (25%)
Loop For Whitesboro.
0 (0%)
377 Bypass Whitesboro.
2 (25%)
Widen Current 377 Through Whitesboro.
0 (0%)
Make Current 377 Through Whitesboro A Business Route.
1 (12.5%)
Texas Travel And Information Center.
1 (12.5%)
Make Bridge(s) Longer, Add Turnaround Lanes On Each End.
0 (0%)
Extend "BR 377" to Gordonville, along F.M. 901.
0 (0%)
A 7 Lane Nondivided Highway (Left Turn Lane)
0 (0%)
Concrete.
1 (12.5%)
Street Lights.
1 (12.5%)
A Larger "Welcome" Sign(s).
2 (25%)
Trees.
2 (25%)
Automatic De-Icer.
1 (12.5%)
Where Is Highway 377?
2 (25%)
Something Else?
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 8

In_Correct

Lol I Love Polls.

I wonder if TXDOT would ever agree with me. Or anybody else. Perhaps not. When going from Oklahoma to Texas they have in my opinion a grand entrance into Texas. Of course that highway was not always there. Highway 91, Texoma Parkway, Eisenhower Parkway, Spur 503, etc. Were all Highway 75 at some point. And then they kept rerouting the highways over and over again, which can be confusing.

But now they have the bridges over the Red River, (dotted with both Oklahoma and Texas style reflectors) The Texas Travel And Information Center, and the entire stretch is concrete, with bridge exits, and frontage roads.  :cool: The space is extremely wide and looks very fancy.

Interstate 35 has plans to be widened into an 8 Lane Highway, which appears to extend the frontage roads into Thackerville, Oklahoma.

Both of these highways have passing lanes.

Meanwhile Highway 377 is still a 2 lane highway and looks untouched since its construction. It looks like all they did was take an old state highway and change it to Highway 377! The bridge, "The Willis Bridge", is a narrow 2 lane bridge with guardrail damage. A second guardrail has been added inside the bridge causing it to be even narrower. Potholes are all over the bridge and I think it was from 2012 - 2015 they kept patching the holes over and over again.

The current construction is scheduled for February 2018 but Oklahoma is saying "Pending Partial Funding From Texas". TXDOT already has the funding so this communication error makes me think if this bridge will ever be replaced or will they just let it collapse entirely and close the highway permanently.

Some news article somewhere said that the new bridge is going to be much wider so that future widening of 377 could be possible. (And in Texas a very short southbound passing lane already exists, but all they did was repaint the shoulder.) The Highway 82 Bridge in Whitesboro is already wide enough for passing lanes for 377.

After seeing various bridges such as The Kanawha River bridge I would love to see a bridge (or bridges) like that one going over The Red River on 377. Even more thoughtful is if the bridge was much higher than the existing bridge, that it would make more sense to keep that height going and make more bridges over Juniper Point and Oklahoma University Road. Frontage Roads (and two more bridges) could be added to provide access to these roads. The Southbound Frontage Road could start at Fobb Bottom Road and The Northbound Frontage Road could stop at Willis Beach Road.

The 4 lane controlled access 377 with frontage roads could bypass Whitesboro west of Whitesboro, a cloverleaf with bridges over 82 before rejoining Highway 377. A BR-377 can start from FM 901 which could be converted to a 5 lane road, proceed west along FM 901, and then curve southward towards U.S. 377. The "B.R. 377" would turn into a divided highway with an oversized median, with ramps that provide a main road, there would be a cloverleaf and bridges over the rerouted U.S. 377. As B.R. 377 approaches Whitesboro, the main road would ramp towards the frontage roads and then the median between the frontage roads would become narrower until it becomes a 5 lane through Whitesboro.

They used to talk about building a loop around Gainesville. They could and should include extend the loop to include Whitesboro.

They could then convert 377 into a standard divided highway with oversized median that they can build a main controlled access in the median and existing roads become frontage roads, until it reaches Denton.

Between Red River and Whitesboro are not very many business that would have to be relocated. They can also add a Texas Travel And Information Center just like they have with U.S. 75 and I-35.  :cool:

If Texas appears to have Grand Entries to the highways going into Texas (even if it is by coincidence), why not do the same for 377?
And Traffic appears to be multiplying. People in Texas often own multiple vehicles, and somehow individual people are driving them simultaneously.  :biggrin:

Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.


The Ghostbuster

Where is the option: I don't care? I live nowhere near there, so I have no opinion on the matter.

hotdogPi

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2016, 05:10:32 PM
Where is the option: I don't care? I live nowhere near there, so I have no opinion on the matter.

The closest option is "Where Is Highway 377?".
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

txstateends

Another option:  stop and take a breath.

You will be lucky to see a regular redone bridge IMO for US 377.  If there was a reason (a-la the I-35 and US 75 corridors being freeways and both passing by big casino complexes) for US 377 to be more than it is, TxDOT would have likely already done something to plan or build accordingly.  Besides, have you compared the AADTs for US 377 with those of either US 75 or I-35?  And you can completely forget about a TX Tourist Bureau location on US 377; you are lucky to see the US 75 and I-35 Tourist Bureaus in such close proximity (if only 1 of those highways existed, you would only see 1 of those Tourist Bureaus).  At the very most, you would find possibly a pamphlet rack if there were a motel or marina on the TX side.

It will sound like I'm bursting your bubble, but your scenarios would likely only happen if there weren't the existence of either US 75 or I-35 (or both) taking attention/traffic/$$ away from the vicinity of US 377.
\/ \/ click for a bigger image \/ \/

Bobby5280

The I-35 and US-75 corridors North of Dallas are undergoing major expansion. Add in the additional wrinkle of Phase 4 & 5 expansion of the Dallas North Toll Way, which will run about 18 miles North of US-380 to FM-121 near Gunter. There are future plans to expand the Dallas North Toll Way even farther up to US-82 and maybe even to Lake Texoma.

I'm sure traffic levels on US-377 will continue to grow as the DFW area continues to grow. But I think at least some people will be taking US-377 as a way of avoiding the Interstate.

Regionally there are other highway corridors crying out more desperately for upgrades, particularly to Interstate quality. I think TX-114 ought to be Interstate quality from Grapevine all the way to Rhome where it meets US-287. And US-287 ought to be Interstate quality from Decatur all the way down to where it meets I-45 in Ennis. US-380 needs to be an Interstate quality facility between Decatur and McKinney, but it's too boxed in with development, so a parallel relief freeway/tollway is needed. Even parts of US-82 farther North could stand freeway upgrades. I think all of those are more urgent than a big upgrade of US-377.

Road Hog

#5
I was driving 377 today and saw that the construction through Pilot Point was done. All they did was widen the shoulders and maintain the center turn lane, with fresh blacktop. That signifies that TxDOT has no plans for further improvement to 377 for at least another 10 years. Not to mention farther north to the river. The traffic count doesn't justify it.

Also, the current 377 around Whitesboro is already a bypass. Business 377 breaks off a few miles south, runs through downtown and rejoins 377 proper just south of 82. You'd be making a bypass of a bypass.

kphoger

Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2016, 05:25:56 PMYou'd be making a bypass of a bypass.

Let's make a topic about that!!

Let's not...

[/whoosh]
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

In_Correct

#7
Quote from: Bobby5280 on August 09, 2016, 05:22:18 PM
The I-35 and US-75 corridors North of Dallas are undergoing major expansion. Add in the additional wrinkle of Phase 4 & 5 expansion of the Dallas North Toll Way, which will run about 18 miles North of US-380 to FM-121 near Gunter. There are future plans to expand the Dallas North Toll Way even farther up to US-82 and maybe even to Lake Texoma.

I'm sure traffic levels on US-377 will continue to grow as the DFW area continues to grow. But I think at least some people will be taking US-377 as a way of avoiding the Interstate.

Regionally there are other highway corridors crying out more desperately for upgrades, particularly to Interstate quality. I think TX-114 ought to be Interstate quality from Grapevine all the way to Rhome where it meets US-287. And US-287 ought to be Interstate quality from Decatur all the way down to where it meets I-45 in Ennis. US-380 needs to be an Interstate quality facility between Decatur and McKinney, but it's too boxed in with development, so a parallel relief freeway/tollway is needed. Even parts of US-82 farther North could stand freeway upgrades. I think all of those are more urgent than a big upgrade of US-377.

That's another point about future planning for Highway 377. ... Highway 380 through Denton has lots of development very close to it that they are probably going to have to realign it. Or perhaps cram a controlled access highway with frontage roads just like I-35 in Gainesville. ... and then 380 might look very crammed.

I am aware that Highway Upgrades happen one step at a time. But it appears that 377 hasn't had ANY upgrades since it was built. (especially the bridge over Red River!) Currently I would be happy if they ever add a new (and wider) bridge and passing lanes. If they don't add the passing lanes, or at least buy Right Of Way, then Highway 377 might have many businesses very close to it. I do not like the idea of a long 2 laned "Main Street" with a 70 MPH speed limit.

I also don't know how they are going to cram 8 lanes plus 6 lanes of frontage roads through Gainesville. When there is barely any room for the 4 lanes (and 6 lanes of frontage roads) ... I read that they are going to Eminent Domain and Rezone but I think it might be better to move I-35 elsewhere perhaps west of Gainesville ... If there is any other place to put it.

I once read a 2035 Plan. It seems to plan for future growth which I would like 377 to be included ... If they do not include 377 in the plans then it will look like 380 except with no passing lanes. (And yes I am aware TXDOT is working on many other highways that still 2 laned in some areas, including 82 and 380. I keep telling myself that lol.)
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

In_Correct

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 08, 2016, 05:10:32 PM
Where is the option: I don't care? I live nowhere near there, so I have no opinion on the matter.

But Highway 377 is not even in Wisconsin.

Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2016, 05:25:56 PM
I was driving 377 today and saw that the construction through Pilot Point was done. All they did was widen the shoulders and maintain the center turn lane, with fresh blacktop. That signifies that TxDOT has no plans for further improvement to 377 for at least another 10 years. Not to mention farther north to the river. The traffic count doesn't justify it.

Also, the current 377 around Whitesboro is already a bypass. Business 377 breaks off a few miles south, runs through downtown and rejoins 377 proper just south of 82. You'd be making a bypass of a bypass.

I would love wider shoulders and a center turn lane. What do they want? A Traffic Backup?  :confused:

QuoteAlso, the current 377 around Whitesboro is already a bypass. Business 377 breaks off a few miles south, runs through downtown and rejoins 377 proper just south of 82.

It is not completely around 377. As you just said that it is south of 82 but there is no bypass north of 82.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

In_Correct

Re-examining the map again and I find that there might actually be room to squeeze a controlled access highway 377 with frontage roads through current highway 377 in Whitesboro. The 377 bypass north of 82 I thought of earlier could connect to the "377 bypass" (it is not exactly bypassing Whitesboro) south of 82. Or the entire highway 377 could be upgraded, unless piles of businesses start piling up and place their buildings very close to the highway. Currently there are a lot of buildings but they aren't touching the highway so it might be as simple (lol) as redesigning the parking lots. The situation could be similar to Decatur. One interesting challenge is the triple decker grade separated highway, railway, and highway south of Whitesboro. ... and also it has a narrow bridge with no guardrails.

Other areas of Highway 377 I was thinking of a temporary (and not exactly controlled access) solution that is found in third world nations if there is a T intersection, they will have feeder roads on both sides of the dual carrigeways, and a bridge for one carriageway going over the intersection but not the other carriageway. The other carriageway would have an extra lane for cars to slow down and turn into the intersection under the bridge. They can build the other brige later.

Or they can just wait until there is 18 billion cars backed up.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

Brian556

Back about 10 years ago, I saw a plan.proposal that showed the future DNT extension turning west, passing just below the Lake Ray Roberts Dam, and meeting I-35 at Sanger. IDK what the current plans are.

When the US 377 Lake Texoma Bridge was built, SH 10 was changed to SH 99 to match OK 99. That designation change occurred in 1960.  This road became US 377 in 1969.

One of the proposals for I-35 at Gainesville was to realign it to the west of town.

I've always though ROW should have been preserved to make US 380 a freeway Denton to McKinney.

Concerning US 380 needing to be realigned at Denton,  LOOP 288 already serves as a bypass, and is signed TRUCK 380. I guess, particularly in the future, when the section of LOOP 288 from I-35 to US 380 is completed, US 380 could move to LOOP 288, and the current route could become the BUSINESS route

Bobby5280

Phase 4 and 5 of the Dallas North Tollway will run several miles East of Ray Roberts Lake. The DNT expansion will end at FM-121 a couple miles West of Gunter near the intersection of FM-121 and Scharff Road. Future phases may ultimately have the DNT running into US-75 near Denison. That might funnel even more traffic onto US-75/US-69 in Oklahoma and put more pressure on upgrading it into an Interstate.

Regarding US-380, I agree it would have been nice if TX DOT had preserved ROW to convert it into a freeway between Denton and McKinney. I think there's actually a good case to be made for a freeway or tollroad running from US-287 in Decatur to Denton then McKinney and over to Greenville and I-30. It's getting all built up through there. Some of US-380 could be upgraded. But the Denton to McKinney segment will have to be a new highway on an alignment a little North of US-380.

thisdj78

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 23, 2016, 02:43:11 PM


Regarding US-380, I agree it would have been nice if TX DOT had preserved ROW to convert it into a freeway between Denton and McKinney. I think there's actually a good case to be made for a freeway or tollroad running from US-287 in Decatur to Denton then McKinney and over to Greenville and I-30. It's getting all built up through there. Some of US-380 could be upgraded. But the Denton to McKinney segment will have to be a new highway on an alignment a little North of US-380.

There's a proposed outer loop that would follow that same path. Below is a link the Collin county portion. There's already a portion of frontage road built near Melissa.

http://www.collincountytx.gov/mobility/Documents/outer_loop/OuterLoopOverview.pdf

rte66man

Quote from: txstateends on August 09, 2016, 04:36:37 PM
Another option:  stop and take a breath.

You will be lucky to see a regular redone bridge IMO for US 377. 

Already going to happen:



It's my understanding that TxDot will have the dollars ready in time for actual construction.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

In_Correct

Quote from: thisdj78 on September 25, 2016, 05:55:08 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 23, 2016, 02:43:11 PM


Regarding US-380, I agree it would have been nice if TX DOT had preserved ROW to convert it into a freeway between Denton and McKinney. I think there's actually a good case to be made for a freeway or tollroad running from US-287 in Decatur to Denton then McKinney and over to Greenville and I-30. It's getting all built up through there. Some of US-380 could be upgraded. But the Denton to McKinney segment will have to be a new highway on an alignment a little North of US-380.

There's a proposed outer loop that would follow that same path. Below is a link the Collin county portion. There's already a portion of frontage road built near Melissa.

http://www.collincountytx.gov/mobility/Documents/outer_loop/OuterLoopOverview.pdf

That is another possibility that I thought of. If it does not make much sense to bypass Whitesboro or if it is too difficult to squeeze through Whitesboro, then they can build a loop around Whitesboro. They keep thinking about building a loop around Gainesville. And Sherman is certainly going to want its own loop. They can all have their own controlled access loops with frontage roads or perhaps they can just build one huge controlled access loop with frontage roads that goes around all three towns.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

In_Correct

Quote from: rte66man on September 25, 2016, 08:55:46 PM
Quote from: txstateends on August 09, 2016, 04:36:37 PM
Another option:  stop and take a breath.

You will be lucky to see a regular redone bridge IMO for US 377. 

Already going to happen:



It's my understanding that TxDot will have the dollars ready in time for actual construction.

Something I am worrying about when they say "we would love to build a bridge. All we have to do is wait for Texas." and perhaps "Don't look at us. It is Texas fault." is that each state is going to say that they are waiting on the other state and then the bridge would not be constructed.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

Scott5114

The state line along the Red River actually runs along the south bank of the river. So the bridge is really Oklahoma's problem for the most part.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Road Hog

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 26, 2016, 07:27:22 PM
The state line along the Red River actually runs along the south bank of the river. So the bridge is really Oklahoma's problem for the most part.

Not entirely. The Willis Bridge crosses Lake Texoma, which the two states share. The state line still follows the old riverbed. So the two states would share the responsibilities more or less 50-50 depending on where the line is in the lake.

Bobby5280

Quote from: thisdj78There's a proposed outer loop that would follow that same path. Below is a link the Collin county portion. There's already a portion of frontage road built near Melissa.

http://www.collincountytx.gov/mobility/Documents/outer_loop/OuterLoopOverview.pdf
Quote from: In_CorrectThat is another possibility that I thought of. If it does not make much sense to bypass Whitesboro or if it is too difficult to squeeze through Whitesboro, then they can build a loop around Whitesboro. They keep thinking about building a loop around Gainesville. And Sherman is certainly going to want its own loop. They can all have their own controlled access loops with frontage roads or perhaps they can just build one huge controlled access loop with frontage roads that goes around all three towns.

Whitesboro, Sherman and Gainesville are on yet another emerging super highway corridor in that region: US-82. Not only does the US-380 corridor between Decatur, Denton, McKinney and Greenville need to be upgraded to a freeway, parts of US-82 needs the same treatment. There has been so much growth and development in that area that TX DOT has been unable to keep up with it.

TX-DOT is going to have a tough time threading freeway along or near US-380, and that's only going to get more difficult as each year passes. US-82 needs to be upgraded to a freeway from at least Gainesville and I-35 over to Sherman and US-75. Small parts of US-82 have freeway style exits, either 4 lane or limited access Super 2. It shouldn't be too difficult to upgrade that road as long as there aren't a bunch of new businesses hugging up next to it and building driveways directly onto the road.

rte66man

Quote from: Road Hog on September 27, 2016, 12:18:43 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 26, 2016, 07:27:22 PM
The state line along the Red River actually runs along the south bank of the river. So the bridge is really Oklahoma's problem for the most part.

Not entirely. The Willis Bridge crosses Lake Texoma, which the two states share. The state line still follows the old riverbed. So the two states would share the responsibilities more or less 50-50 depending on where the line is in the lake.

According to the never dependable Google Maps, it lies about in the middle.  The official OK map agrees.  That would imply the bridge would cost about $80 million if it was split.  However, I believe the agreement is for OK to do all the work and bill TX for their share.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

rte66man

#20
I've seen the preliminary plans. They call for a 44 ft wide bridge immediately east of the existing one.  12 ft lanes and 10 ft shoulders. Will be somewhat taller too.

[Fixed reply randomly shoved into a stack of quotes where it didn't belong. -S.]
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

In_Correct

That width is too narrow for future expansion, but if they are going to build the new bridge east of the old one (and perhaps demolish the old one) then there might be plenty of room for future bridges to accommodate for a "Interstate 35 Into Oklahoma" planned system of bridges. (four bridges, two for the frontage roads) perhaps without even annexing any of the nearby properties west of U.S. 377. Otherwise there appears to be tons of room to widen U.S. 377. ... unless buildings creep up next to it.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

rte66man

Quote from: In_Correct on October 08, 2016, 09:54:12 PM
That width is too narrow for future expansion, but if they are going to build the new bridge east of the old one (and perhaps demolish the old one) then there might be plenty of room for future bridges to accommodate for a "Interstate 35 Into Oklahoma" planned system of bridges. (four bridges, two for the frontage roads) perhaps without even annexing any of the nearby properties west of U.S. 377. Otherwise there appears to be tons of room to widen U.S. 377. ... unless buildings creep up next to it.

Given that the estimated cost of this bridge is $52 million (including demolition of the old bridge), that isn't likely to happen.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

In_Correct

That 44 foot wide bridge by itself is going to cost much more than 52 million.
Drive Safely. :sombrero: Ride Safely. And Build More Roads, Rails, And Bridges. :coffee: ... Boulevards Wear Faster Than Interstates.

rte66man

Quote from: In_Correct on October 09, 2016, 07:26:18 PM
That 44 foot wide bridge by itself is going to cost much more than 52 million.

Not according to the preliminary plans I saw.  I'm still looking for the email with that information.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra



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