With Illinois funding a study to extend Amtrak to Rockford, Dubuque, Iowa now wants to study the same idea. What was one of the drivers of the study?
According to the Telegraph Herald, Illinois roads just aren't safe.
https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html (https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html)
"U.S. 20 from Dubuque to Rockford is a two-lane (highway) and very scenic but not a safe route during certain times," said Chandra Ravada, transportation director for East Central Iowa Intergovernmental Association, an entity assisting the committee. "But as we go on, we need other forms of transportation to give options to people."
Since Iowa can't control IDOT highway bills, they can control how alternates are supported.
And how on earth would this help at all?
Is the previously proposed four lane 20 between Freeport and Galena dead for good? That needs to take priority first. I understand they were previously shooting for a freeway along the corridor, but why not scale it back and make it an expressway to save money.
Quote from: I-39 on November 30, 2020, 05:39:22 PM
Is the previously proposed four lane 20 between Freeport and Galena dead for good? That needs to take priority first. I understand they were previously shooting for a freeway along the corridor, but why not scale it back and make it an expressway to save money.
No. But I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it to happen in any form, unless something radically changes with IDOT funding. Neither site discussing it has been updated since 2014.
https://idot.illinois.gov/projects/us-20-galena-bypass
http://www.idot.illinois.gov/projects/us20-freeport
There are obvious benefits to a modern 4-lane highway connecting Dubuque to Freeport. The issue is coming up with the funding for it. Literally the only way projects get done is if the ISTHA builds it out (and then tolls it).
Iowa isn't quite to the point where they're shoveling cash at Illinois to build out their section (much like Canada is paying Michigan's bills for the Gordie Howe bridge connecting Detroit to Windsor). But if Illinois had dirt flying on a modern 4-lane US-20, Iowa would quickly shovel whatever money they could at making the connection.
Here is an editorial from 2011 in Rockford, when the Rockford to Dubuque Expressway was estimated to cost $2 billion to finish. (Despite what this writer puts to print, this section of US 20 is still in the top 5 for accidents causing deaths.)
https://www.rrstar.com/article/20110713/NEWS/307139945 (https://www.rrstar.com/article/20110713/NEWS/307139945)
So, the days of the giant, five-year, U.S. surface transportation bills are over. What road dollars there are must be used for high-priority projects. And for 70 years this has not been a high priority. I had a call maybe 10 years ago from an elderly man who had been a friend of my dad's when they were Boy Scouts in the 1920s. He became a road engineer for what was then called the state Highway Department. He told me he was working on the western portion of a four-lane U.S. 20 as long ago as 1937. World War II killed the project, he said, and it has managed to stay killed ever since.
One argument made by proponents of the freeway is that U.S. 20 is a divided four-lane most of the way through Iowa. Yes, it is, and I've driven on it. When I got 25 miles past Dubuque (think "Field of Dreams" movie set), most traffic vanished into the cornfields. I remember thinking that an airplane could easily have landed on the road without hitting a vehicle.
Now, some advocates in the road promotion community are talking about making the Freeport-to-Galena stretch a tollway. But the folks at the Illinois Tollway have never studied the idea, according to spokeswoman Joelle McGinnis. The tollway has plans for improvements in congested northeast Illinois, where two-thirds of the state's residents live and drive. Most crucial to the Rockford area is the proposed widening of Interstate 90 to six lanes between Rockford and Elgin. Now there's an example of a busy highway.
Over the years the state has made prudent improvements of U.S. 20, most importantly the Freeport bypass, which significantly speeds traffic so that a trip from Rockford to Galena, which used to take nearly two hours, is now an hour and a half. The state has also widened some hilly portions of the road and created passing lanes. The highway is much safer than it was 40 years ago.
The main traffic tie-up is in the city of Galena, where a bypass has long been planned. That needs to be completed, and two-lane bypasses around Elizabeth and Stockton should be considered.
Quote from: JREwing78 on November 30, 2020, 07:02:57 PM
Quote from: I-39 on November 30, 2020, 05:39:22 PM
Is the previously proposed four lane 20 between Freeport and Galena dead for good? That needs to take priority first. I understand they were previously shooting for a freeway along the corridor, but why not scale it back and make it an expressway to save money.
No. But I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it to happen in any form, unless something radically changes with IDOT funding. Neither site discussing it has been updated since 2014.
https://idot.illinois.gov/projects/us-20-galena-bypass
http://www.idot.illinois.gov/projects/us20-freeport
There are obvious benefits to a modern 4-lane highway connecting Dubuque to Freeport. The issue is coming up with the funding for it. Literally the only way projects get done is if the ISTHA builds it out (and then tolls it).
Iowa isn't quite to the point where they're shoveling cash at Illinois to build out their section (much like Canada is paying Michigan's bills for the Gordie Howe bridge connecting Detroit to Windsor). But if Illinois had dirt flying on a modern 4-lane US-20, Iowa would quickly shovel whatever money they could at making the connection.
IDOT's website in general is horrendously out of date (especially in the project section) and not well laid out, but that's another story.
I can't believe Illinois has been unable to build the remaining four lane portion of US 20 between Freeport and Galena, but found the money to build a big portion of IL-336 between Quincy and Macomb which is not needed at all. Even US 67 arguably isn't as big of a priority.
Quote from: edwaleni on November 30, 2020, 04:58:53 PM
With Illinois funding a study to extend Amtrak to Rockford, Dubuque, Iowa now wants to study the same idea. What was one of the drivers of the study?
According to the Telegraph Herald, Illinois roads just aren't safe.
https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html (https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html)
"U.S. 20 from Dubuque to Rockford is a two-lane (highway) and very scenic but not a safe route during certain times," said Chandra Ravada, transportation director for East Central Iowa Intergovernmental Association, an entity assisting the committee. "But as we go on, we need other forms of transportation to give options to people."
Since Iowa can't control IDOT highway bills, they can control how alternates are supported.
Having never visited this area I perhaps should reserve comment...but I find it very difficult to believe that this could be a scenic area, aside from perhaps crossing the Mississippi.
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 30, 2020, 11:25:33 PM
Having never visited this area I perhaps should reserve comment...but I find it very difficult to believe that this could be a scenic area, aside from perhaps crossing the Mississippi.
The area is part of the "Driftless Area" that spans both sides of the Mississippi from Iowa and Illinois north into Wisconsin and Minnesota. It's a LOT different than central Illinois flatland, particularly in Jo Daviess County. The region that the 4-lane US-20 is slated to go through is quite hilly, one reason this is a $2 billion project.
More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driftless_Area
Many years ago several people at IDOT have me their views of 20 30 and 34. If Iowa want to pay it get federal money ...we will build them.
Since then Galena wanted a through town improvements. But then didn't want it all 3 lane.The EIS is so old it would have to start from scratch. IDOT is building a 3 lane segment. If they hadn't diverted all the effort on the fantasy road there could be a much better existing road.
On 30 the only support came from Iowa. The final report to EPA suggested some passing lanes. Iowa has decided that's all it needs on its section of 30. Unlike the vague end to 20 this like US 51 were just cancelled.
Finally US 34 is getting 4 lanes from the end of the Biggsville bypass to hear Monmouth. I expect there will always be a gap because the Corps has really expensive floodplain requirements . That turned into a problem for 30 near Morrison and I wonder if it might not doom 67 between Meridosia and Macomb.
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 30, 2020, 11:25:33 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 30, 2020, 04:58:53 PM
With Illinois funding a study to extend Amtrak to Rockford, Dubuque, Iowa now wants to study the same idea. What was one of the drivers of the study?
According to the Telegraph Herald, Illinois roads just aren't safe.
https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html (https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html)
"U.S. 20 from Dubuque to Rockford is a two-lane (highway) and very scenic but not a safe route during certain times," said Chandra Ravada, transportation director for East Central Iowa Intergovernmental Association, an entity assisting the committee. "But as we go on, we need other forms of transportation to give options to people."
Since Iowa can't control IDOT highway bills, they can control how alternates are supported.
Having never visited this area I perhaps should reserve comment...but I find it very difficult to believe that this could be a scenic area, aside from perhaps crossing the Mississippi.
Lots of large valleys from most of the highest points in Illinois (Charles Mound) as the water races down to the Mississippi. There is even a ski resort nearby.
Most people think of Illinois for 3 things, Cubs, farming and Chicago. Geologically it contains some diversity, especially in the northwest section (that we are discussing here) and down in the far south, where the glaciers never made it during the last ice age.
The area around Galena boomed when lead was mined (lead is made of the ore named galena) in 1828. Dubuque, Iowa is named after Julien Dubuque who operated a large lead smelter on the Iowa side of the river.
Illinois lead has been found as far south as Louisiana when the Mississippian natives mined it and took it with them for trade or writing.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/OWzHapXmtS6d75Qs9vBVQyr210QWzU5WMBA3aeNhaGodvnLsUkvx0kSll-DNldLl8XcdwUEcrluxllqrudIh-KoiYp5c2cC7siuFRokDr59CAMgT7fr37UsHPZDY43BEgxdq3KCisownRYC5c-pLyb0z-kVNyIr77iPOQWheY1-Mi1rWYjAdsw)
(https://www.idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Freeport-to-Galena/images/us20.jpg)
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 30, 2020, 11:25:33 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 30, 2020, 04:58:53 PM
With Illinois funding a study to extend Amtrak to Rockford, Dubuque, Iowa now wants to study the same idea. What was one of the drivers of the study?
According to the Telegraph Herald, Illinois roads just aren't safe.
https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html (https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html)
"U.S. 20 from Dubuque to Rockford is a two-lane (highway) and very scenic but not a safe route during certain times," said Chandra Ravada, transportation director for East Central Iowa Intergovernmental Association, an entity assisting the committee. "But as we go on, we need other forms of transportation to give options to people."
Since Iowa can't control IDOT highway bills, they can control how alternates are supported.
Having never visited this area I perhaps should reserve comment...but I find it very difficult to believe that this could be a scenic area, aside from perhaps crossing the Mississippi.
It is extremely scenic, especially during the fall. I'm a part time resident since 2005 in East Galena and it is lovely country
East Central is the MPO for the area and includes the IL side of the river, just like the MPO for the Quad Cities. So it's not really one state meddling in another's business. The MPO has recognized the US 20 deficiencies for some time now.
Quote from: Rick Powell on December 01, 2020, 01:39:57 PM
East Central is the MPO for the area and includes the IL side of the river, just like the MPO for the Quad Cities. So it's not really one state meddling in another's business. The MPO has recognized the US 20 deficiencies for some time now.
So why hasn't there been a bigger push in the last two decades to finish the four lane US 20 between Freeport and Galena, even a scaled back expressway version? It seems IDOT put US 67 and IL-336 over it when it should have been the other way around.
Honestly, if they hadn't gone for a full blown freeway and accepted a scaled back expressway similar to IL-336, I'll bet it could have been finished by now.
Quote from: Terry Shea on November 30, 2020, 11:25:33 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on November 30, 2020, 04:58:53 PM
With Illinois funding a study to extend Amtrak to Rockford, Dubuque, Iowa now wants to study the same idea. What was one of the drivers of the study?
According to the Telegraph Herald, Illinois roads just aren't safe.
https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html (https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html)
"U.S. 20 from Dubuque to Rockford is a two-lane (highway) and very scenic but not a safe route during certain times," said Chandra Ravada, transportation director for East Central Iowa Intergovernmental Association, an entity assisting the committee. "But as we go on, we need other forms of transportation to give options to people."
Since Iowa can't control IDOT highway bills, they can control how alternates are supported.
Having never visited this area I perhaps should reserve comment...but I find it very difficult to believe that this could be a scenic area, aside from perhaps crossing the Mississippi.
It is incredibly scenic, I took a video this past Spring of a similar stretch in the area
https://youtu.be/5JfStEIkWZo
I was told the freeway was an obsession of a former engineer and there was quite a bit of local opposition.....
336 had a newspaper tv station owner pushing for it.
67 had a PAC.
This is Illinois.
Quote from: 3467 on December 01, 2020, 06:16:03 PM
I was told the freeway was an obsession of a former engineer and there was quite a bit of local opposition.....
336 had a newspaper tv station owner pushing for it.
67 had a PAC.
This is Illinois.
Thus, I can sum it up in one word in this state: clout.
Quote from: Brandon on December 01, 2020, 08:06:11 PM
Quote from: 3467 on December 01, 2020, 06:16:03 PM
I was told the freeway was an obsession of a former engineer and there was quite a bit of local opposition.....
336 had a newspaper tv station owner pushing for it.
67 had a PAC.
This is Illinois.
Thus, I can sum it up in one word in this state: clout.
To be fair, unlike 67/336, I do think a new four lane highway along 20 is needed, but not as a full freeway. A simple expressway with interchanges at any location requiring a traffic light would be sufficient.
I fear it might be easier to get water to flow uphill than to four-lane US 20 between Dubuque and Rockford.
I have the original Feasibility Study from 1992 . It recommended an expressway. I was told by someone in IDOT planning it was a district engineer that insisted on the freeway.
And you see where that ended up.
None of the old freeway corridors have the volume for a freeway and really don't have it for an expressway. The 2019 counts are on getting around Illinois. Post covid they would be lower.
There is room for more passing lanes and safety corrections. That needs to be the focus everywhere.
The only 4 lanes left alive are 67 and the southwest connector.
67 and part of the connector have a lot of floodplain . If the Corps repeats 34forget them too.
Quote from: 3467 on December 01, 2020, 10:03:31 PM
I have the original Feasibility Study from 1992 . It recommended an expressway. I was told by someone in IDOT planning it was a district engineer that insisted on the freeway.
And you see where that ended up.
None of the old freeway corridors have the volume for a freeway and really don't have it for an expressway. The 2019 counts are on getting around Illinois. Post covid they would be lower.
There is enough on 20 for an expressway. If traffic has gone down, it is because of truckers/cars avoiding the route. If you upgraded the remaining sections to an expressway, we'd see more through traffic return as it would be an alternative to I-80.
It's an utter joke 151 between Madison and Dubuque was upgraded and yet, Illinois has stalled on 20 not only between Freeport and Galena, but the Julian Dubuque bridge as well.
Outside Galena it's 3900 to 7700.
Quote from: 3467 on December 01, 2020, 10:33:46 PM
Outside Galena it's 3900 to 7700.
Again, this is because most through traffic is avoiding the route. With a four lane road, those numbers would be higher.
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher. Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits. Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage. The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.
Quote from: edwaleni on November 30, 2020, 04:58:53 PM
With Illinois funding a study to extend Amtrak ...
According to the Telegraph Herald, Illinois roads just aren't safe.
https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html (https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_2d78d618-6a50-595d-be13-6b970777d079.html)
"U.S. 20 from Dubuque to Rockford is a two-lane (highway) and very scenic but not a safe route during certain times," said Chandra Ravada, transportation director for East Central Iowa Intergovernmental Association, an entity assisting the committee. "But as we go on, we need other forms of transportation to give options to people."
Quote from: I-39 on November 30, 2020, 05:39:22 PM
And how on earth would this help at all?
I wouldn't, of course. Do people honestly think so many people would start taking Amtrak instead of driving, that the highway would become safer? Or that people are so scared of driving the highway, they'll choose to take Amtrak instead based on that?
Reality check, people.
Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher. Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits. Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage. The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.
This article is from just under 3 years ago.
https://www.journalstandard.com/news/20180203/safety-upgrades-sought-for-us-20-west-of-freeport (https://www.journalstandard.com/news/20180203/safety-upgrades-sought-for-us-20-west-of-freeport)
Notice this quote
The danger involved in moving goods along U.S. 20 on the two-lane, hilly and curving segment, causes companies to send their trucks over longer routes to avoid U.S. 20, adding costs that businesses would like to avoid. The study talked to 96 businesses and determined that while U.S. 20 is the shortest route to Chicagoland and Rochelle, companies routinely have their trucks avoid the road, taking longer, indirect routes instead.
Not using U.S. 20 adds 59 minutes and 83 miles to a trip to the Rochelle intermodal hub; not using U.S. 20 to Chicago adds 26 minutes and 57 miles to a trip.The same thing happened with US 51 in the 1980s. The old US 51 didn't break 10,000+ VPD, but when I-39 opened, it allowed for traffic to grow.
Yes, US 20 would hit 5 digits with a modern four lane road. Again, they went overboard with a full freeway, but a
free flowing (i.e, no stoplights) four lane divided highway would be sufficient here.
Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher. Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits. Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage. The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.
Today, I would agree with this. Anyone moving a OTR truck from the east to say the Twin Cities will use 80 to reach I-380 in Iowa City to make the turn north. Or they would take the ISTHA I-294 around Chicago to reach the 90-94 combo.
The benefit of a US-20 upgrade would be both in capacity and in route resiliency. I think there would be an argument if either is needed at this time.
From this perspective its more than just Illinois, Iowa would have a large amount of work to do. The recent opening of the SW Arterial is a good start but traffic still has to traverse downtown and the Julien Dubuque. Years ago they had planned for the US-20 Bypass south of Dubuque proper and shelved it.
My "beef' is that the route is unsafe between Freeport and Dubuque. Head on crashes with trucks crossing over the centerline are the most common.
I would gladly promote a Macomb Bypass approach where IDOT acquires the land for a 4 lane ROW, but only builds 2 lanes with the proper geometries, widths and shoulders to support safer traffic.
If/when that time comes that traffic justfies the expansion, they have it.
That was the Galena bypass idea 2 lanes like Macomb.
I read that report on trucks and their data didn't convince me. Rochelle is on 88 . Why would trucks be taking 20?
The road needs passing lanes and safety improvements.
BTW the East West Tollway was to go to QC and have a spur to Clinton. It's on Page 5 of Illinois Tollway notes
Quote from: 3467 on December 02, 2020, 01:33:46 PM
That was the Galena bypass idea 2 lanes like Macomb.
I read that report on trucks and their data didn't convince me. Rochelle is on 88 . Why would trucks be taking 20?
The road needs passing lanes and safety improvements.
BTW the East West Tollway was to go to QC and have a spur to Clinton. It's on Page 5 of Illinois Tollway notes
US 20 is probably less traveled in NW Iowa and yet, it was recently completed to four lanes. It is ridiculous US 20 is four lanes for virtually the entire length from Rockford to Sioux City except for the 47 mile segment between Freeport and Galena.
I agree that two lanes on a new 4 lane ROW would be sufficient to start.
Quote from: 3467 on December 02, 2020, 01:33:46 PM
That was the Galena bypass idea 2 lanes like Macomb.
I read that report on trucks and their data didn't convince me. Rochelle is on 88 . Why would trucks be taking 20?
The road needs passing lanes and safety improvements.
BTW the East West Tollway was to go to QC and have a spur to Clinton. It's on Page 5 of Illinois Tollway notes
The traffic to Rochelle via US-20 was to get certain NE Iowa products to the UP Global yard there. However, UP just shut down that yard down to flat local switching.
NE Iowa does not have a large amount of choice for small/medium industrial transloads, especially ones that are going east of Chicago. So they truck it over to Rochelle to get it classified and routed.
With the yard shut down, they will probably go the other way as UP announced they are going to set up a regular service from Sioux City to North Platte.
So a reversal of truck traffic (if they stick with UP) or they will try to find a deal with BNSF in Dubuque. I would like to think they would have done that already, but weren't getting reasonable pricing.
As for the "spur" to Clinton Illinois it was FAP-402, and to complete the gap from ISTHA and the QC it was FAP-403. These routes were passed in Congress as part of the supplemental highway plan in 1974. That is why ISTHA stopped at Rock Falls when it was extended in 1975.
FAP-403 was funded and finished in 1979. FAP-402 was dropped due to the oil crisis.
One minor correction You meant the state legislature. Walker killed them by ignoring them . Thompson came in and remained them principle arterial (supplemental freeway) was out in the annual report sometimes. We have an old thread on that and I have dug up some new history I need to post..
I checked the latest traffic and truck counts . I don't see where the massive extra traffic would come from. Iowa studied the 80 corridor and concluded they really couldn't divert much traffic off of it.
Though the rural areas control the legislature so who knows what it may decide. The opposite is true in Illinois. Relations are not good between the states. Or Missouri. They are between WI IN and MI. But there don't seem to be any highway issues except with Iowa.
Quote from: I-39 on December 02, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher. Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits. Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage. The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.
This article is from just under 3 years ago.
https://www.journalstandard.com/news/20180203/safety-upgrades-sought-for-us-20-west-of-freeport (https://www.journalstandard.com/news/20180203/safety-upgrades-sought-for-us-20-west-of-freeport)
Notice this quote
The danger involved in moving goods along U.S. 20 on the two-lane, hilly and curving segment, causes companies to send their trucks over longer routes to avoid U.S. 20, adding costs that businesses would like to avoid. The study talked to 96 businesses and determined that while U.S. 20 is the shortest route to Chicagoland and Rochelle, companies routinely have their trucks avoid the road, taking longer, indirect routes instead.
Not using U.S. 20 adds 59 minutes and 83 miles to a trip to the Rochelle intermodal hub; not using U.S. 20 to Chicago adds 26 minutes and 57 miles to a trip.
The same thing happened with US 51 in the 1980s. The old US 51 didn't break 10,000+ VPD, but when I-39 opened, it allowed for traffic to grow.
Yes, US 20 would hit 5 digits with a modern four lane road. Again, they went overboard with a full freeway, but a free flowing (i.e, no stoplights) four lane divided highway would be sufficient here.
Again, there is not a lot of volume coming to/from that region that would be trying to access Rochelle or Chicago. Not enough to where it would push US 20's volume above 10K even if all those trucks used US 20.
There is about a 500 truck bump after 280 but I can't see that being a lot of diverted traffic. Take a look at the Iowa Truck volume map . I sure don't find the diverted trucks.
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT.
As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.
*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT.
As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.
*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
Ok, politics aside, that doesn't really answer the question. From a traffic standpoint, what makes US 151 different that it needed four lanes?
BTW, I'd argue Doyle eliminating the gas tax index was worse.
You can't take the politics out .The advocate for the freeway was one engineer.
Chuck Sweeney was a journalistic advocate for an expressway freeway or some improv and I say was because he died a couple of years ago.
SSO described it. IDIOT won't do anything without pressure and Galena didn't even want much of an upgrade through town.
Looking at some of the freight flow maps from FHWA's website (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/state_info/illinois/truckflow.htm), I could see a combination of an improved US 20, the Avenue of the Saints, and I-35 pulling some trucks from I-94 and I-39/I-90 in Wisconsin.
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
For starters, 151 had and has quite a bit more traffic than 20. Even 10-15 years ago, 151's quietest section between Dubuque and Dodgeville had more traffic than 20's busiest section between Galena and Freeport. 2007 volumes on 151 show nothing lower than 8K.
Nice maps wish they did them for cars like Froggies maps.
Quote from: I-39 on December 05, 2020, 09:44:03 AM
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT.
As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.
*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
Ok, politics aside, that doesn't really answer the question. From a traffic standpoint, what makes US 151 different that it needed four lanes?
BTW, I'd argue Doyle eliminating the gas tax index was worse.
Different states have different priorities. Look at Kentucky and Virginia where US 460 is concerned. Completing Corridor Q is a much higher priority for us than for them. Or West Virginia and Virginia where Corridor H is concerned.
Oh yes the Midwestern states have a history of fighting and cooperating then Bach to fighting.
I'm going to hazard a guess that the AADT numbers don't really factor in Galena-bound traffic on weekends. Even as is, with 15-20% of that volume as truck freight, those numbers certainly warrant upgrades to the existing highway. Portions of US-20 west of Freeport are almost absurdly narrow (9 or 10 ft travel lanes with NO shoulder).
If IDOT merely purchased 300' wide ROW and built a modern 2-lane highway (with appropriate climbing/passing lanes), that would solve a lot of problems. Widening and modernizing the existing road would probably consume similar amounts of money up front and not be able to be upgraded to a 4-lane highway (likely why IDOT hasn't done it).
4 miles of what you suggest are in the current plan. It's been in there. Just before the freeway idea the rapid addition of passing lanes ended.. I know that they were planning near continuous passing lanes for 67 29 and 20 but then they went from best to worst among DOTs.
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 05, 2020, 12:55:45 PM
Looking at some of the freight flow maps from FHWA's website (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/state_info/illinois/truckflow.htm), I could see a combination of an improved US 20, the Avenue of the Saints, and I-35 pulling some trucks from I-94 and I-39/I-90 in Wisconsin.
From I-39/90, yes. But I doubt it would pull trucks off 94. An improved US 20 (plus AoS and I-35) is more or less the same distance as I-90 between Rockford and Albert Lea. But it would be a route almost 90 miles longer to the Twin Cities. As it is, trucks to the Twin Cities can take I-90/US 52 to avoid I-94 on a route that is "only" 25 miles longer than I-94.
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 06, 2020, 01:34:32 PM
I'm going to hazard a guess that the AADT numbers don't really factor in Galena-bound traffic on weekends.
Huh? How do figure that managed to happen? They just didn't count half the traffic on certain days of the week?
Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2020, 01:08:01 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 06, 2020, 01:34:32 PM
I'm going to hazard a guess that the AADT numbers don't really factor in Galena-bound traffic on weekends.
Huh? How do figure that managed to happen? They just didn't count half the traffic on certain days of the week?
Probably depends on how many days they leave the counters out. Kentucky has very few permanent traffic count stations, especially on non-interstates. They place portable pneumatic counting devices on the roads at designated points to determine traffic counts.
Illinois has too Hbelkins. There was a post from New York In the Northeast group on 70s freeway plans that NY actually inflates its figures.
I have driven and counted cars to tell you that on AADT Illinois is telling the truth and Chicago arterial have been in sharp decline and downstate flat. It's why there are only a couple of live 4 lane projects downstate
If remotes work continues it will be hard to justify any more than maintenance on roads and transit.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 02, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher. Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits. Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage. The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.
Today, I would agree with this. Anyone moving a OTR truck from the east to say the Twin Cities will use 80 to reach I-380 in Iowa City to make the turn north. Or they would take the ISTHA I-294 around Chicago to reach the 90-94 combo.
The benefit of a US-20 upgrade would be both in capacity and in route resiliency. I think there would be an argument if either is needed at this time.
From this perspective its more than just Illinois, Iowa would have a large amount of work to do. The recent opening of the SW Arterial is a good start but traffic still has to traverse downtown and the Julien Dubuque. Years ago they had planned for the US-20 Bypass south of Dubuque proper and shelved it.
My "beef' is that the route is unsafe between Freeport and Dubuque. Head on crashes with trucks crossing over the centerline are the most common.
I would gladly promote a Macomb Bypass approach where IDOT acquires the land for a 4 lane ROW, but only builds 2 lanes with the proper geometries, widths and shoulders to support safer traffic.
If/when that time comes that traffic justfies the expansion, they have it.
The route seems more an alternative from Chicago to hooking up with I-90 in South Dakota than to I-80. I don't see a huge need for relief on I-90 across southern MN and WI except maybe when a snowstorm is affecting those areas but leaving 20 to the south untouched? Still, when I was a kid we took a field trip in school to Galena and Dubuque and that portion from Freeport to Galena was very slow and old. The route could use a general four lane upgrade with bypasses and at grade crossings with the right of way preserved for a possible full fledged interstate if for some reason traffic picked up to warranty it, or a particular crossing became to dangerous to leave as is. At a minimum first step some two lane bypasses of the towns along the route would be a start. (I remember they took us to this ultimate "old people" restaurant in Dubuque called "Now Serving Smorgastable" and besides us kids everyone else was gray haired retired folks eating some crappy buffet.)
Quote from: captkirk_4 on December 11, 2020, 09:05:55 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 02, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher. Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits. Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage. The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.
Today, I would agree with this. Anyone moving a OTR truck from the east to say the Twin Cities will use 80 to reach I-380 in Iowa City to make the turn north. Or they would take the ISTHA I-294 around Chicago to reach the 90-94 combo.
The benefit of a US-20 upgrade would be both in capacity and in route resiliency. I think there would be an argument if either is needed at this time.
From this perspective its more than just Illinois, Iowa would have a large amount of work to do. The recent opening of the SW Arterial is a good start but traffic still has to traverse downtown and the Julien Dubuque. Years ago they had planned for the US-20 Bypass south of Dubuque proper and shelved it.
My "beef' is that the route is unsafe between Freeport and Dubuque. Head on crashes with trucks crossing over the centerline are the most common.
I would gladly promote a Macomb Bypass approach where IDOT acquires the land for a 4 lane ROW, but only builds 2 lanes with the proper geometries, widths and shoulders to support safer traffic.
If/when that time comes that traffic justfies the expansion, they have it.
The route seems more an alternative from Chicago to hooking up with I-90 in South Dakota than to I-80. I don't see a huge need for relief on I-90 across southern MN and WI except maybe when a snowstorm is affecting those areas but leaving 20 to the south untouched? Still, when I was a kid we took a field trip in school to Galena and Dubuque and that portion from Freeport to Galena was very slow and old. The route could use a general four lane upgrade with bypasses and at grade crossings with the right of way preserved for a possible full fledged interstate if for some reason traffic picked up to warranty it, or a particular crossing became to dangerous to leave as is. At a minimum first step some two lane bypasses of the towns along the route would be a start. (I remember they took us to this ultimate "old people" restaurant in Dubuque called "Now Serving Smorgastable" and besides us kids everyone else was gray haired retired folks eating some crappy buffet.)
Pretty much the entirety of the road between Galena and Stockton needs to be on a new alignment. I like the idea of simply acquiring four lane ROW and simply building a two lane road that could be widened in the future if need be.
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT.
As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.
*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
You really want to go there? Is that why the former has a much higher amount of shitty pavement than the latter?
Quote from: Crash_It on December 13, 2020, 03:19:52 AM
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT.
As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.
*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
You really want to go there? Is that why the former has a much higher amount of shitty pavement than the latter?
Last I looked, IDOT usually has crappier pavement. WisFOT freeways are nice and smooth. IDOT, not so much.
QuoteWisFOT freeways are nice and smooth
At the expense of everything else...
I do remember well when WisDOT repaved the 90-94 combo (pre I-39) from the Dells down to Madison back in the early 1980's.
Down to one lane in many spots, it was a nightmare to traverse. Warning signs all the way back at LaCrosse and Eau Claire of backups.
And backups there were, miles of them.
This is where a US-20 enhancement can play a huge role.
Rather than sending trucks all the way down to-from I-80 or up I-41 to Oshkosh, this is where a US-20 can play a strategic traffic management role.
Back then alternatives weren't very good. IowaDOT had not upgraded US-20 between Dubuque and Waterloo.
WisDOT had not built the WI-20 Trunk yet from Green Bay to Chippewa Falls.
Today with AADT's growing and truck volumes increasing, it also increases the need to perform maintenance on these primary routes to/from the northwest and Chicago.
So if one was thinking long term, any of these routes could go into maintenance mode and the traffic load redirection would not overwhelm the other routes.
That is what I mean by resiliency and capacity.
Quote from: Brandon on December 13, 2020, 08:45:24 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 13, 2020, 03:19:52 AM
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT.
As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.
*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
You really want to go there? Is that why the former has a much higher amount of shitty pavement than the latter?
Last I looked, IDOT usually has crappier pavement. WisFOT freeways are nice and smooth. IDOT, not so much.
I take it you haven't driven on US12 in walworth county.....shitty pavement from the state line all the way through a majority of the county. Haven't encountered a similarly deteriorated stretch in IL and I've almost driven on all the freeway miles in the state. Wis 32 feels like driving on train tracks from the state line to 92nd street in Kenosha. I41 was crap from Milwaukee through washington county. I can go on and on
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 02:27:21 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 13, 2020, 08:45:24 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 13, 2020, 03:19:52 AM
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT.
As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.
*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
You really want to go there? Is that why the former has a much higher amount of shitty pavement than the latter?
Last I looked, IDOT usually has crappier pavement. WisFOT freeways are nice and smooth. IDOT, not so much.
I take it you haven't driven on US12 in walworth county.....shitty pavement from the state line all the way through a majority of the county. Haven't encountered a similarly deteriorated stretch in IL and I've almost driven on all the freeway miles in the state. Wis 32 feels like driving on train tracks from the state line to 92nd street in Kenosha. I41 was crap from Milwaukee through washington county. I can go on and on
Don't you know that maintenance is at the bottom of WisDOT's priority list? They have too many oversized four lane freeways/expressways along local corridors to build.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 02:27:21 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 13, 2020, 08:45:24 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 13, 2020, 03:19:52 AM
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT.
As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.
*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
You really want to go there? Is that why the former has a much higher amount of shitty pavement than the latter?
Last I looked, IDOT usually has crappier pavement. WisFOT freeways are nice and smooth. IDOT, not so much.
I take it you haven't driven on US12 in walworth county.....shitty pavement from the state line all the way through a majority of the county. Haven't encountered a similarly deteriorated stretch in IL and I've almost driven on all the freeway miles in the state. Wis 32 feels like driving on train tracks from the state line to 92nd street in Kenosha. I41 was crap from Milwaukee through washington county. I can go on and on
I always assumed WisDOT was waiting on Illinois to actually pull the trigger on the IL-53 Extension with IL-120 in Lake County.
This would allow the Wilmette types to reach their wine and cheese tastings near Lake Geneva faster.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
I thought IDOT had already started resurfacing much of I-39?
As for US 12 just north of the Illinois border, I recall a lot of it being recently resurfaced, except near one older looking bridge south of WI 50.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
I-80 across Illinois is the most bitched about interstate in the Midwest. I-55 sucks in Springfield. IDOT still has a lot of work to do so I wouldn't be overreacting to a little shade.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
I-80 across Illinois is the most bitched about interstate in the Midwest. I-55 sucks in Springfield. IDOT still has a lot of work to do so I wouldn't be overreacting to a little shade.
I55 has just been resurfaced and 80 will be as well.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 04:28:19 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
I-80 across Illinois is the most bitched about interstate in the Midwest. I-55 sucks in Springfield. IDOT still has a lot of work to do so I wouldn't be overreacting to a little shade.
I55 has just been resurfaced and 80 will be as well.
Resurfacing is like putting lipstick on a pig. Need to be doing more than that, which a shitty DOT like IDiOT can't afford.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 04:22:56 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 04:28:19 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
I-80 across Illinois is the most bitched about interstate in the Midwest. I-55 sucks in Springfield. IDOT still has a lot of work to do so I wouldn't be overreacting to a little shade.
I55 has just been resurfaced and 80 will be as well.
Resurfacing is like putting lipstick on a pig. Need to be doing more than that, which a shitty DOT like IDiOT can't afford.
I55 was reconstructed as well. At least our bridges don't crumble and kill thousands of people like a certain bridge in your state did. So you aren't qualified to speak on this.
Wow, this is quickly turning violent...
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 04:40:28 PM
I55 was reconstructed as well. At least our bridges don't crumble and kill thousands of people like a certain bridge in your state did. So you aren't qualified to speak on this.
Since when is thirteen "thousands"?
Quote from: 1 on December 15, 2020, 05:01:55 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 04:40:28 PM
I55 was reconstructed as well. At least our bridges don't crumble and kill thousands of people like a certain bridge in your state did. So you aren't qualified to speak on this.
Since when is thirteen "thousands"?
My mistake, but it was still negligence on the part of a DOT that caused that.
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Not yet, anyway. IDOT needs to get moving on those I-80 bridges in Joliet, tho
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 15, 2020, 06:37:48 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Not yet, anyway. IDOT needs to get moving on those I-80 bridges in Joliet, tho
Minor repairs have already been made but more substantial ones will be made over the next couple years
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Umm, Crash. You may want to do some research on bridges in Illinois before claiming that it "never" happens here.
Dixon, IL - May 4, 1873 - Trusedale Bridge - 46 killed, 56 injured because of a design flaw.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 04:28:19 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
I-80 across Illinois is the most bitched about interstate in the Midwest. I-55 sucks in Springfield. IDOT still has a lot of work to do so I wouldn't be overreacting to a little shade.
I55 has just been resurfaced and 80 will be as well.
Yep, I-55 has been resurfaced, just a patch at a time. A patch here, a patch there, pretty soon, IDOT will have replaced all the old pavement piecemeal.
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 15, 2020, 07:20:42 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Umm, Crash. You may want to do some research on bridges in Illinois before claiming that it "never" happens here.
Dixon, IL - May 4, 1873 - Trusedale Bridge - 46 killed, 56 injured because of a design flaw.
That was more than a whole century ago. The I-35 incident happened in this Century.
Quote from: Brandon on December 15, 2020, 07:31:01 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 04:28:19 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
I-80 across Illinois is the most bitched about interstate in the Midwest. I-55 sucks in Springfield. IDOT still has a lot of work to do so I wouldn't be overreacting to a little shade.
I55 has just been resurfaced and 80 will be as well.
Yep, I-55 has been resurfaced, just a patch at a time. A patch here, a patch there, pretty soon, IDOT will have replaced all the old pavement piecemeal.
You obviously haven't driven it south of that area. Reconstructed in two sections and resurfaced in others. Smooth ride all the way to the state line now.
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 15, 2020, 07:20:42 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Umm, Crash. You may want to do some research on bridges in Illinois before claiming that it "never" happens here.
Dixon, IL - May 4, 1873 - Trusedale Bridge - 46 killed, 56 injured because of a design flaw.
No need to go back that far in history. The Panzier Road bridge over Rayse Creek in Jefferson County collapsed in 2015 due to failed substructure just after a gravel truck crossed it. IDOT replaced it as project #9-10498-0000, listed with the 2015 fiscal year projects. I haven't been able to locate the results of the investigation, but news outlets reported at the time that "The bridge had a satisfactory rating on a national evaluation [in 2014]."
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 15, 2020, 07:31:01 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 04:28:19 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 12:28:55 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 14, 2020, 07:56:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2020, 02:57:26 PM
I-39 is a washboard from 90 to 55.
That's going to be resurfaced in the coming construction season or at least patched, more than what WISDot is doing.
I-80 across Illinois is the most bitched about interstate in the Midwest. I-55 sucks in Springfield. IDOT still has a lot of work to do so I wouldn't be overreacting to a little shade.
I55 has just been resurfaced and 80 will be as well.
Yep, I-55 has been resurfaced, just a patch at a time. A patch here, a patch there, pretty soon, IDOT will have replaced all the old pavement piecemeal.
You obviously haven't driven it south of that area. Reconstructed in two sections and resurfaced in others. Smooth ride all the way to the state line now.
I've driven much of I-55 just this year. Sure, there are nice sections, after having been left to go to shit first and repaved well after the expiry date. However, the worst section is being repaved piecemeal.
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 15, 2020, 07:20:42 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Umm, Crash. You may want to do some research on bridges in Illinois before claiming that it "never" happens here.
Dixon, IL - May 4, 1873 - Trusedale Bridge - 46 killed, 56 injured because of a design flaw.
No need to go back that far in history. The Panzier Road bridge over Rayse Creek in Jefferson County collapsed in 2015 due to failed substructure just after a gravel truck crossed it. IDOT replaced it as project #9-10498-0000, listed with the 2015 fiscal year projects. I haven't been able to locate the results of the investigation, but news outlets reported at the time that "The bridge had a satisfactory rating on a national evaluation [in 2014]."
Not in IDOT's jurisdiction, that is a county highway.
Why are you so aggressively defending IDOT anyway? 47-48 DOTs out of 50 are trash. They're not unique in that regard.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
*citation needed*
Quote from: Rothman on December 16, 2020, 07:05:11 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
*citation needed*
If he sounds his horn for 6 seconds while making the claim ... :rolleyes:
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 09:38:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 15, 2020, 07:20:42 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Umm, Crash. You may want to do some research on bridges in Illinois before claiming that it "never" happens here.
Dixon, IL - May 4, 1873 - Trusedale Bridge - 46 killed, 56 injured because of a design flaw.
No need to go back that far in history. The Panzier Road bridge over Rayse Creek in Jefferson County collapsed in 2015 due to failed substructure just after a gravel truck crossed it. IDOT replaced it as project #9-10498-0000, listed with the 2015 fiscal year projects. I haven't been able to locate the results of the investigation, but news outlets reported at the time that "The bridge had a satisfactory rating on a national evaluation [in 2014]."
Not in IDOT's jurisdiction, that is a county highway.
That's what I was thinking, but why did IDOT replace it?
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 15, 2020, 07:20:42 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Umm, Crash. You may want to do some research on bridges in Illinois before claiming that it "never" happens here.
Dixon, IL - May 4, 1873 - Trusedale Bridge - 46 killed, 56 injured because of a design flaw.
No need to go back that far in history. The Panzier Road bridge over Rayse Creek in Jefferson County collapsed in 2015 due to failed substructure just after a gravel truck crossed it. IDOT replaced it as project #9-10498-0000, listed with the 2015 fiscal year projects. I haven't been able to locate the results of the investigation, but news outlets reported at the time that "The bridge had a satisfactory rating on a national evaluation [in 2014]."
This bridge collapsed in 2013. Civil Engineer Scott Graham from WJE Associates was hired to investigate and found that the pilings were faulty when driven in 1977. Seems the bridge collapsed after a gravel truck had just passed over, he saw the bridge fall in his mirror. Recent movement of heavy trucks on the bridge was causing the pilings to flex in the bed of Rayse Creek.
Quote from: Rothman on December 16, 2020, 07:05:11 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
*citation needed*
https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/11/05/states-that-are-falling-apart-6/3/
Quote from: Crash_It on December 16, 2020, 05:25:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 16, 2020, 07:05:11 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
*citation needed*
https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/11/05/states-that-are-falling-apart-6/3/
Doesn't pass the smell test, when WI is 33% higher than the state below it. Reeks of data corruption. Their link takes you to USDOT's website and not the data they actually used.
But, if you want to stick with these numbers, IDOT still doesn't come across as great, given IL's ranking. IDOT still sucks.
Quote from: Crash_It on December 16, 2020, 05:25:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 16, 2020, 07:05:11 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
*citation needed*
https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/11/05/states-that-are-falling-apart-6/3/
...you did realize this same article you cited to diss Wisconsin puts Illinois in the bottom 10 with it, right?
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 16, 2020, 05:48:14 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 16, 2020, 05:25:38 PM
Quote from: Rothman on December 16, 2020, 07:05:11 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
*citation needed*
https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/11/05/states-that-are-falling-apart-6/3/
...you did realize this same article you cited to diss Wisconsin puts Illinois in the bottom 10 with it, right?
IL is far from being the leader with the worst pavement quality (unlike WI)
The three states with the worst pavement quality are NM, OK, and PA.
Quote from: 1 on December 16, 2020, 06:20:53 PM
The three states with the worst pavement quality are NM, OK, and PA.
Not according to the article I posted, #1 is WI with 81% in poor condition
Quote from: Crash_It on December 16, 2020, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 16, 2020, 06:20:53 PM
The three states with the worst pavement quality are NM, OK, and PA.
Not according to the article I posted, #1 is WI with 81% in poor condition
*sigh*
This is playing out stupidly and predictably.
Quote from: Rothman on December 16, 2020, 07:47:19 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 16, 2020, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 16, 2020, 06:20:53 PM
The three states with the worst pavement quality are NM, OK, and PA.
Not according to the article I posted, #1 is WI with 81% in poor condition
*sigh*
This is playing out stupidly and predictably.
The Sconnie on P2 started it, I'm proving him wrong. IDOT is superior to WISdot.
Other problems with IDiOT that have nothing to do with deficiency:
- Only three slip ramps in the state, as you have mentioned. They're supposed to increase efficiency, so why is IDiOT so averse to using them?
- Poorly timed traffic lights in the Chicago area (and probably the entire state) despite the existence of a grid.
From my own personal experience I would second NM as having the worst surface pavement quality. NM makes Midwest States like Illinois and Michigan seem reasonable at times.
Reality is: they both suck because they've spent money on unneeded expansions rather than taking care of what they have.
Can we get this thread back on topic regarding US 20 and take the pavement argument elsewhere?
Quote from: I-39 on December 16, 2020, 08:42:33 PM
Reality is: they both suck because they've spent money on unneeded expansions rather than taking care of what they have.
Can we get this thread back on topic regarding US 20 and take the pavement argument elsewhere?
Iowa sucks.
Rothman can you find the 60s future freeway map for upstate? That's where the US 20 came from in Illinois and sucky Iowa. Maps are being posted in General.Highway under Fitzowl.
Quote from: 1 on December 16, 2020, 08:40:35 PM
Other problems with IDiOT that have nothing to do with deficiency:
- Only three slip ramps in the state, as you have mentioned. They're supposed to increase efficiency, so why is IDiOT so averse to using them?
- Poorly timed traffic lights in the Chicago area (and probably the entire state) despite the existence of a grid.
Just the city of Chicago I've witness the timing (STOPSTOPSTOPSTOP) issue, and in North Chicago as well near the Navy base, it can also be STOPSTOPSTOPSTOP if there's cross traffic at those intersections that feed into the base. There's supposed to be a project next year that will optimize the signals again.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 16, 2020, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 15, 2020, 07:20:42 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Umm, Crash. You may want to do some research on bridges in Illinois before claiming that it "never" happens here.
Dixon, IL - May 4, 1873 - Trusedale Bridge - 46 killed, 56 injured because of a design flaw.
No need to go back that far in history. The Panzier Road bridge over Rayse Creek in Jefferson County collapsed in 2015 due to failed substructure just after a gravel truck crossed it. IDOT replaced it as project #9-10498-0000, listed with the 2015 fiscal year projects. I haven't been able to locate the results of the investigation, but news outlets reported at the time that "The bridge had a satisfactory rating on a national evaluation [in 2014]."
This bridge collapsed in 2013. Civil Engineer Scott Graham from WJE Associates was hired to investigate and found that the pilings were faulty when driven in 1977. Seems the bridge collapsed after a gravel truck had just passed over, he saw the bridge fall in his mirror. Recent movement of heavy trucks on the bridge was causing the pilings to flex in the bed of Rayse Creek.
Sounds like an overweight issue that the bridge couldn't handle after multiple heavy crossings. Wonder if they had weight restriction signs leading up to the bridge
Quote from: edwaleni on December 16, 2020, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
The Panzier Road bridge over Rayse Creek in Jefferson County collapsed in 2015 due to failed substructure just after a gravel truck crossed it. IDOT replaced it as project #9-10498-0000, listed with the 2015 fiscal year projects. I haven't been able to locate the results of the investigation, but news outlets reported at the time that "The bridge had a satisfactory rating on a national evaluation [in 2014]."
This bridge collapsed in 2013. Civil Engineer Scott Graham from WJE Associates was hired to investigate and found that the pilings were faulty when driven in 1977. Seems the bridge collapsed after a gravel truck had just passed over, he saw the bridge fall in his mirror. Recent movement of heavy trucks on the bridge was causing the pilings to flex in the bed of Rayse Creek.
How could it have collapsed in 2013, when all the news articles about its collapse are from 2015, and when a 2014 evaluation was cited?
Also, forgive my ignorance, but why did IDOT replace a county bridge? Is that SOP?
Quote from: ET21 on December 17, 2020, 09:19:27 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 16, 2020, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on December 15, 2020, 07:20:42 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 06:05:11 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on December 15, 2020, 05:43:23 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 15, 2020, 05:36:05 PM
I'm more amused at the "no one outside Illinois is allowed to criticize IDOT" implication.
How could you even want to when your DOT had a whole bridge collapse? Never happened here.
Cause IDOT sucks? It's not like I've never been to Illinois.
Least we've never had a bridge collapse like MN did. And have miles of better pavement than WI which has 81% of it's pavement in poor condition vs just 16 for IL.
Umm, Crash. You may want to do some research on bridges in Illinois before claiming that it "never" happens here.
Dixon, IL - May 4, 1873 - Trusedale Bridge - 46 killed, 56 injured because of a design flaw.
No need to go back that far in history. The Panzier Road bridge over Rayse Creek in Jefferson County collapsed in 2015 due to failed substructure just after a gravel truck crossed it. IDOT replaced it as project #9-10498-0000, listed with the 2015 fiscal year projects. I haven't been able to locate the results of the investigation, but news outlets reported at the time that "The bridge had a satisfactory rating on a national evaluation [in 2014]."
This bridge collapsed in 2013. Civil Engineer Scott Graham from WJE Associates was hired to investigate and found that the pilings were faulty when driven in 1977. Seems the bridge collapsed after a gravel truck had just passed over, he saw the bridge fall in his mirror. Recent movement of heavy trucks on the bridge was causing the pilings to flex in the bed of Rayse Creek.
Sounds like an overweight issue that the bridge couldn't handle after multiple heavy crossings. Wonder if they had weight restriction signs leading up to the bridge
The bridge was carrying a 80,000 GVWR when it collapsed. There were no restrictions. The gravel truck that had passed over was under the rating.
As for whose DOT is better, I really don't give 1 hoot. Every state has the right to fund their highways as they please under the law. If a road is untrustworthy then i will not use it.
It is a known fact that many states east of the Mississippi overspent on new construction after WW2 and are now "paying the piper" to replace/maintain them.
In some cases, those states have chosen to starve their highway maintenance funds in order to prop up public employee pay and their pensions. In other cases some states rely more on the Feds for highway funding because they don't have a strong local tax base.
In Illinois's case, they had a lot of political pull in the 50's and 60's and were able to get a lot new ROW built out. After 1973, that started to dribble down until I-255 was finally finished. As the US population shifted south and west, Illinois has lost a ton of its influence in the House, where the money decisions are made. Large plans made in good faith post WW2 fell to the wayside as other priorities took over. Every state is coping with this in their own ways.
Quote from: kphoger on December 17, 2020, 10:05:00 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 16, 2020, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 15, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
The Panzier Road bridge over Rayse Creek in Jefferson County collapsed in 2015 due to failed substructure just after a gravel truck crossed it. IDOT replaced it as project #9-10498-0000, listed with the 2015 fiscal year projects. I haven't been able to locate the results of the investigation, but news outlets reported at the time that "The bridge had a satisfactory rating on a national evaluation [in 2014]."
This bridge collapsed in 2013. Civil Engineer Scott Graham from WJE Associates was hired to investigate and found that the pilings were faulty when driven in 1977. Seems the bridge collapsed after a gravel truck had just passed over, he saw the bridge fall in his mirror. Recent movement of heavy trucks on the bridge was causing the pilings to flex in the bed of Rayse Creek.
How could it have collapsed in 2013, when all the news articles about its collapse are from 2015, and when a 2014 evaluation was cited?
Also, forgive my ignorance, but why did IDOT replace a county bridge? Is that SOP?
2013 - Collapse
2014 - Analysis of collapse
2015 - Replacement Construction
I don't know why IDOT paid to replace it. It's possible IDOT had a large project on IL-15 west of Mt Vernon and the contracted aggregate provider was using the road to come north from the quarry.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 17, 2020, 11:11:32 AM
I don't know why IDOT paid to replace it. It's possible IDOT had a large project on IL-15 west of Mt Vernon and the contracted aggregate provider was using the road to come north from the quarry.
The project # indicates a local project (probably paid with IDOT distributed local MFT funds but might also have other eligible state or federal funding) but placed on the statewide IDOT letting. There are plenty of other similar local projects on every statewide letting. And IDOT's Local Roads provides a lot of support and advice for local agencies who wouldn't have the resources to hire an expert on their own, under their "technology transfer" programs.
This means that the ball is in IDOT's court now; hopefully they'll upgrade the remaining at-grade portions of US 20 between the Mississippi and Rockford to at least expressway, if not freeway. But this being what they are, they'll probably hold off on any such project as long as they can, at least until the complaints about it are heard loud enough to change their minds.
Quote from: Brandon on December 13, 2020, 08:45:24 PM
Last I looked, IDOT usually has crappier pavement. WisFOT freeways are nice and smooth. IDOT, not so much.
Wisconsin Failure of Transportation :spin:
Just kidding of course, I overall prefer WisDOT to IDOT. The condition of pavement across the two states is a bit hard to quantify merely based on anecdotes, but WisDOT is significantly better
in my opinion at incorporating modern and better designs in their roadways. Slip lanes, roundabouts, flyovers, and also better freeway signage.
In my extensive experience driving all over both IL and WI; neither has much to brag about in terms of pavement quality of state-maintained highways. The rural two laners are the real equalizer. It's an obstacle course out there.
WisDOT is looking at a mountain of maintenance this decade as all of those 4 lane corridors they expanded in the 80's and 90's come due for new pavement. Any of those roads where the concrete 'sings' from the transverse grooves are gonna be old enough to be in this category.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 21, 2020, 09:34:11 AM
WisDOT is looking at a mountain of maintenance this decade as all of those 4 lane corridors they expanded in the 80's and 90's come due for new pavement. Any of those roads where the concrete 'sings' from the transverse grooves are gonna be old enough to be in this category.
Why did they use tranverse grooves? It was well-known by that time that they were far noisier. than parallel grooves.
Probably they still had some cats at WisDOT who insisted transverse grooves provide better traction.
Bureaucracy is slow to change, ya know?
Parallel grooves are very dangerous for bicycles, as the wheels get stuck.
Generally, not an issue on rural expressways/freeways. ;)
I drove US 20 from Rockford to Dubuque for the first time today. Even on what I would expect is a lighter than normal day, it definitely does have heavier traffic than most 2-lane highways. There are passing lanes interspersed that seem to be sufficient, with the possible exception of the first several miles after it goes down to 2 lanes from 4 near Freeport.
There are spots where I think the terrain would make it hard to fully expand to 4 lanes.
There are more coming in the current plan in that area.
Quote from: cabiness42 on December 29, 2020, 05:40:00 PM
I drove US 20 from Rockford to Dubuque for the first time today. Even on what I would expect is a lighter than normal day, it definitely does have heavier traffic than most 2-lane highways. There are passing lanes interspersed that seem to be sufficient, with the possible exception of the first several miles after it goes down to 2 lanes from 4 near Freeport.
There are spots where I think the terrain would make it hard to fully expand to 4 lanes.
The 2 plans out there both use primarily new terrain.
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 29, 2020, 11:58:38 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on December 29, 2020, 05:40:00 PM
I drove US 20 from Rockford to Dubuque for the first time today. Even on what I would expect is a lighter than normal day, it definitely does have heavier traffic than most 2-lane highways. There are passing lanes interspersed that seem to be sufficient, with the possible exception of the first several miles after it goes down to 2 lanes from 4 near Freeport.
There are spots where I think the terrain would make it hard to fully expand to 4 lanes.
The 2 plans out there both use primarily new terrain.
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
That's IDOT for ya. The road that crosses at grade is the original US-20 right-of-way and runs through residential areas at higher speeds than designed.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 29, 2020, 11:58:38 PM
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
"Ah, don't worry. We can build the other half in a few years when we get more funding..."
<50 years later>
"Dang."
Cabiness. It's been years since I drove it. I got the impression of would be fairly easy to add passing lanes though.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 29, 2020, 11:58:38 PM
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
Do you mean here?:
(https://i.imgur.com/8D3sjTL.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4629379,-90.5160919,611m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 30, 2020, 05:40:59 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 29, 2020, 11:58:38 PM
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
Do you mean here?:
(https://i.imgur.com/8D3sjTL.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4629379,-90.5160919,611m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en)
Yes.
That's another thing about US 20 between Rockford and Dubuque. Not only do they still need to four lane the section between Freeport and Galena, but they also really need to redo the four lane west of Galena to the bridge (i.e, grade it properly, realign the lanes so there is no awkward separation with houses in the median, widen the shoulders, etc).
Quote from: edwaleni on December 29, 2020, 11:58:38 PM
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
Yet Missouri did a similar design on US 36 between Macon and Hannibal. Google aerial. (https://goo.gl/maps/tfxzbx2KuNA9LAip7)
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 30, 2020, 09:29:14 AMThat's IDOT for ya. The road that crosses at grade is the original US-20 right-of-way and runs through residential areas at higher speeds than designed.
Missouri had a similar split design for MO 13 north of Springfield. Though that one had enough wrecks for MoDOT to build a new set of northbound lanes and eliminate the split alignment.
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 30, 2020, 10:34:16 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 29, 2020, 11:58:38 PM
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
Yet Missouri did a similar design on US 36 between Macon and Hannibal. Google aerial. (https://goo.gl/maps/tfxzbx2KuNA9LAip7)
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 30, 2020, 09:29:14 AMThat's IDOT for ya. The road that crosses at grade is the original US-20 right-of-way and runs through residential areas at higher speeds than designed.
Missouri had a similar split design for MO 13 north of Springfield. Though that one had enough wrecks for MoDOT to build a new set of northbound lanes and eliminate the split alignment.
Yes, US 36 in Missouri has plenty of these weird aberrations as well. Like the split with a railroad grade south of Bucklin. New grade going east gets a bridge over the tracks, old grade going west gets a 14 foot clearance, no shoulder underpass from the 1940's. Just west of it is total confusion where exactly a four lane division is going to take place with ghost pavement on both sides.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 30, 2020, 11:39:59 PM
Just west of it is total confusion where exactly a four lane division is going to take place with ghost pavement on both sides.
If you're referring to this, then I agree that that is definitely very weird:
(https://i.imgur.com/Bb0nTmz.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7586615,-92.8949151,636m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Quote from: edwaleni on December 30, 2020, 11:39:59 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 30, 2020, 10:34:16 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 29, 2020, 11:58:38 PM
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
Yet Missouri did a similar design on US 36 between Macon and Hannibal. Google aerial. (https://goo.gl/maps/tfxzbx2KuNA9LAip7)
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 30, 2020, 09:29:14 AMThat's IDOT for ya. The road that crosses at grade is the original US-20 right-of-way and runs through residential areas at higher speeds than designed.
Missouri had a similar split design for MO 13 north of Springfield. Though that one had enough wrecks for MoDOT to build a new set of northbound lanes and eliminate the split alignment.
Yes, US 36 in Missouri has plenty of these weird aberrations as well. Like the split with a railroad grade south of Bucklin. New grade going east gets a bridge over the tracks, old grade going west gets a 14 foot clearance, no shoulder underpass from the 1940's. Just west of it is total confusion where exactly a four lane division is going to take place with ghost pavement on both sides.
MoDOT really took the cheap way out when four laning US 36 between Hannibal and Cameron. Not totally surprising given their lack of funding, but if it were to ever be upgraded to I-72 (not happening anytime soon), they would have their work cut out for them in fixing the deficient sections of the highway to meet interstate standards.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 31, 2020, 12:55:16 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 30, 2020, 11:39:59 PM
Just west of it is total confusion where exactly a four lane division is going to take place with ghost pavement on both sides.
If you're referring to this, then I agree that that is definitely very weird:
(https://i.imgur.com/Bb0nTmz.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7586615,-92.8949151,636m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Yep, thats it. Been like that since 1984 from the aerials.
I was looking at the old ROD. Since nothing has been done since 2005 there would have to be a new EIS. Also the purpose and need. Part is valid the road is old but increasing volumes never happened. Also IDOT has no study planned just the improvement to the existing road.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on December 31, 2020, 12:55:16 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 30, 2020, 11:39:59 PM
Just west of it is total confusion where exactly a four lane division is going to take place with ghost pavement on both sides.
If you're referring to this, then I agree that that is definitely very weird:
(https://i.imgur.com/Bb0nTmz.png) (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7586615,-92.8949151,636m/data=!3m1!1e3)
As I recall from 20 years ago, US 61 had a few of those in northeastern Missouri. Not sure if they're still there.
^ Looks like MoDOT got rid of the ones on US 61 and replaced them with more gradual transitions. Going off of the older imagery in Google Earth - note the links are for the general locations with Google's current aerials:
* West of Route OO north of Eolia (https://goo.gl/maps/pZxXzQULTDEHnnFc7) (shift to the northwest)
* Between Route WW and the intersection with either Pike County Road 301 or Pike County Road 308 (https://goo.gl/maps/vtxWy2brTxmJx8rS6) (shift to to the west)
* Between the Pike County 301 or Pike County 308 intersection and Route HH (https://goo.gl/maps/bUEr3MzxUz5ceRFD6) (shift to the east)
Quote from: 3467 on December 31, 2020, 09:30:44 PM
I was looking at the old ROD. Since nothing has been done since 2005 there would have to be a new EIS. Also the purpose and need. Part is valid the road is old but increasing volumes never happened. Also IDOT has no study planned just the improvement to the existing road.
They still list the project on IDOT's website. But in fairness, IDOT's website is severely out of date.
I still think building a new two lane on four lane ROW is the best option here. That way it could be easily upgraded to a (non-freeway) four lane highway if needed.
IS OF said it was doing a financial update to be out in 2014 on that site. So it hasn't been updated in 7 or 8 years. 51 is still there even though it was officially cancelled inn The Federal Register last year. It did remove 50 which according to Edwaleni in 2017 under Rauner. It has 336 which also would have to be redone because they are 4 laning US 24. The Lebanon bypass is not there even though it is funded
67 and 34 no longer are even though it's being built now to Jerseyville and a through town reconstruction is funded. There is also the new Beardstown Bridge funded.
Also 34 will be 4 lane from the Biggsville to Kirkwood bypass.
Now there is a new study for Southwest Illinois not there except Pickneyville. Also there is 29 which is a legacy of 180 and that is a story itself but nothing done in 11 years.
There are no new studies in the 5 year plan except southwest and 67 and 34 are the only other actives that could have any more done But there is another issue....
Current costs for a 4 lane expressway are about 11 million a mile based on all the projects I mentioned above.
Another problem that seems to have come up is floodplains.
It nearly killed 34 and this stretch may be the last.
After levees failed the Army Corp said the stretch inn the floodplain need massive redesign. The cheapest now is 20 million a mile.
This issue of floodplain came up with US 30 But It was killed over purpose and need.
I suspect a big part of 67 has an issue.
Illinois is in no position to build 20 million a mile roads.
Related Galena has been getting through town construction because the Galena Bypass came in at that in 2006.
Quote from: 3467 on January 01, 2021, 12:32:05 PM
Current costs for a 4 lane expressway are about 11 million a mile based on all the projects I mentioned above.
Another problem that seems to have come up is floodplains.
It nearly killed 34 and this stretch may be the last.
After levees failed the Army Corp said the stretch inn the floodplain need massive redesign. The cheapest now is 20 million a mile.
This issue of floodplain came up with US 30 But It was killed over purpose and need.
I suspect a big part of 67 has an issue.
Illinois is in no position to build 20 million a mile roads.
Related Galena has been getting through town construction because the Galena Bypass came in at that in 2006.
67 and 336 are no longer worth pursuing IMO. I-172/336 was a huge waste in hindsight, I hope the Macomb to Peoria section never sees the light of day. I could be wrong, but I don't think 67 sees enough traffic between Jacksonville and Macomb to warrant four lane upgrades.
At least 20 and 34 would be connecting to improvements made in another state (Iowa). Even the 11-20 million per mile cost you cited would be cheaper than the $1-2 billion they were estimating for a freeway along 20. It really is a shame they didn't go for an expressway years ago, it'd be done by now.
Quote from: I-39 on January 01, 2021, 05:10:47 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 01, 2021, 12:32:05 PM
Current costs for a 4 lane expressway are about 11 million a mile based on all the projects I mentioned above.
Another problem that seems to have come up is floodplains.
It nearly killed 34 and this stretch may be the last.
After levees failed the Army Corp said the stretch inn the floodplain need massive redesign. The cheapest now is 20 million a mile.
This issue of floodplain came up with US 30 But It was killed over purpose and need.
I suspect a big part of 67 has an issue.
Illinois is in no position to build 20 million a mile roads.
Related Galena has been getting through town construction because the Galena Bypass came in at that in 2006.
67 and 336 are no longer worth pursuing IMO. I-172/336 was a huge waste in hindsight, I hope the Macomb to Peoria section never sees the light of day. I could be wrong, but I don’t think 67 sees enough traffic between Jacksonville and Macomb to warrant four lane upgrades.
At least 20 and 34 would be connecting to improvements made in another state (Iowa). Even the 11-20 million per mile cost you cited would be cheaper than the $1-2 billion they were estimating for a freeway along 20. It really is a shame they didn’t go for an expressway years ago, it’d be done by now.
West central Illinois has seen population decline in the last 10-15 years, not to mention the closure of a couple of manufacturing industries in Jacksonville between 2004-2010. The case could be made 20 years ago for completely 4 laning US 67 in Illinois, but less so now. US 67 is supposed to be widened soon for several miles through New Deli to Jerseyville (which is part of the St Louis metro area anyway), but I don't see any new construction happening beyond that. IMO, I think rebuilding I-55 around Springfield (which is still 4 lanes) should be a higher priority than US 67.
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 30, 2020, 09:29:14 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 29, 2020, 11:58:38 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on December 29, 2020, 05:40:00 PM
I drove US 20 from Rockford to Dubuque for the first time today. Even on what I would expect is a lighter than normal day, it definitely does have heavier traffic than most 2-lane highways. There are passing lanes interspersed that seem to be sufficient, with the possible exception of the first several miles after it goes down to 2 lanes from 4 near Freeport.
There are spots where I think the terrain would make it hard to fully expand to 4 lanes.
The 2 plans out there both use primarily new terrain.
I think that part where the westbound lanes crossover on a bridge and the eastbound lanes cross a road at grade is one of the most embarrassing, cheapo, unsafe design parts of it.
That's IDOT for ya. The road that crosses at grade is the original US-20 right-of-way and runs through residential areas at higher speeds than designed.
Says the person whose home state has the shittiest pavement quality of all states in the nation and whose residents love driving on IL roads on the regular.
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 31, 2020, 11:19:59 PM
^ Looks like MoDOT got rid of the ones on US 61 and replaced them with more gradual transitions. Going off of the older imagery in Google Earth - note the links are for the general locations with Google's current aerials:
* West of Route OO north of Eolia (https://goo.gl/maps/pZxXzQULTDEHnnFc7) (shift to the northwest)
* Between Route WW and the intersection with either Pike County Road 301 or Pike County Road 308 (https://goo.gl/maps/vtxWy2brTxmJx8rS6) (shift to to the west)
* Between the Pike County 301 or Pike County 308 intersection and Route HH (https://goo.gl/maps/bUEr3MzxUz5ceRFD6) (shift to the east)
Those would be the ones I recalled. Based on historic imagery, looks like all three were smoothed out by 2003, so they had to have been done between 2001 and 2003.
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 01, 2021, 06:45:45 PM
West central Illinois has seen population decline in the last 10-15 years, not to mention the closure of a couple of manufacturing industries in Jacksonville between 2004-2010. The case could be made 20 years ago for completely 4 laning US 67 in Illinois, but less so now. US 67 is supposed to be widened soon for several miles through New Deli to Jerseyville (which is part of the St Louis metro area anyway), but I don't see any new construction happening beyond that. IMO, I think rebuilding I-55 around Springfield (which is still 4 lanes) should be a higher priority than US 67.
This is one of the weird factors of highway planning and Illinois is not alone. i have seen it in all of the sections and threads in AARoads.
Logistics, manufacturing, and other smaller industry require for the most part, proximity to a 4 lane highway. Not necessarily an interstate grade, but some form of freeway that is accommodating for trucks.
These counties or regional interests band together to try and get employment up in their areas, seek out these consultants/lobbyists/snake oil salesmen whose job is to get their location on the map for these firms to consider.
When failures occur due to no 4 lane freeway, these interests rattle their political representatives and tell them they need a 4 lane highway or no employer will come to their town.
For many, many years, western Illinois has complained about a distinct lack of investment in these type of employers. So Illinois comes up with this US-67 and CKC plan to try and invest in the area.
This issue comes up a lot, and it is difficult to gauge the success of some of these highway plans based on the desire to bring economic value to a particular area.
Quote from: edwaleni on January 02, 2021, 11:49:55 PM
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 01, 2021, 06:45:45 PM
West central Illinois has seen population decline in the last 10-15 years, not to mention the closure of a couple of manufacturing industries in Jacksonville between 2004-2010. The case could be made 20 years ago for completely 4 laning US 67 in Illinois, but less so now. US 67 is supposed to be widened soon for several miles through New Deli to Jerseyville (which is part of the St Louis metro area anyway), but I don't see any new construction happening beyond that. IMO, I think rebuilding I-55 around Springfield (which is still 4 lanes) should be a higher priority than US 67.
This is one of the weird factors of highway planning and Illinois is not alone. i have seen it in all of the sections and threads in AARoads.
Logistics, manufacturing, and other smaller industry require for the most part, proximity to a 4 lane highway. Not necessarily an interstate grade, but some form of freeway that is accommodating for trucks.
These counties or regional interests band together to try and get employment up in their areas, seek out these consultants/lobbyists/snake oil salesmen whose job is to get their location on the map for these firms to consider.
When failures occur due to no 4 lane freeway, these interests rattle their political representatives and tell them they need a 4 lane highway or no employer will come to their town.
For many, many years, western Illinois has complained about a distinct lack of investment in these type of employers. So Illinois comes up with this US-67 and CKC plan to try and invest in the area.
This issue comes up a lot, and it is difficult to gauge the success of some of these highway plans based on the desire to bring economic value to a particular area.
This is so true. In this case, I truly do not understand the point of I-172/IL-336. It is the classic definition of a pork barrel project. All the money wasted there could have upgraded US 20 which was/is more needed.
Quote from: I-39 on January 03, 2021, 07:58:45 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 02, 2021, 11:49:55 PM
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 01, 2021, 06:45:45 PM
West central Illinois has seen population decline in the last 10-15 years, not to mention the closure of a couple of manufacturing industries in Jacksonville between 2004-2010. The case could be made 20 years ago for completely 4 laning US 67 in Illinois, but less so now. US 67 is supposed to be widened soon for several miles through New Deli to Jerseyville (which is part of the St Louis metro area anyway), but I don't see any new construction happening beyond that. IMO, I think rebuilding I-55 around Springfield (which is still 4 lanes) should be a higher priority than US 67.
This is one of the weird factors of highway planning and Illinois is not alone. i have seen it in all of the sections and threads in AARoads.
Logistics, manufacturing, and other smaller industry require for the most part, proximity to a 4 lane highway. Not necessarily an interstate grade, but some form of freeway that is accommodating for trucks.
These counties or regional interests band together to try and get employment up in their areas, seek out these consultants/lobbyists/snake oil salesmen whose job is to get their location on the map for these firms to consider.
When failures occur due to no 4 lane freeway, these interests rattle their political representatives and tell them they need a 4 lane highway or no employer will come to their town.
For many, many years, western Illinois has complained about a distinct lack of investment in these type of employers. So Illinois comes up with this US-67 and CKC plan to try and invest in the area.
This issue comes up a lot, and it is difficult to gauge the success of some of these highway plans based on the desire to bring economic value to a particular area.
This is so true. In this case, I truly do not understand the point of I-172/IL-336. It is the classic definition of a pork barrel project. All the money wasted there could have upgraded US 20 which was/is more needed.
Most of that US 36 Traffic across Missouri continues on I 72 to Springfield, not 336. 6 laneing I 55 would probably be the better solution for the St Louis bypassing traffic using US 36, which isn't very heavy, but is an easy, fast drive across the state. I guess with the sky high property taxes the Galena area is no longer a retirement draw, back in the 80s we had a teacher who was talking about retiring there. It is a nice quaint picturesque area that with better roads would probably draw a better tourist traffic.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on January 04, 2021, 08:44:46 AM
Quote from: I-39 on January 03, 2021, 07:58:45 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 02, 2021, 11:49:55 PM
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 01, 2021, 06:45:45 PM
West central Illinois has seen population decline in the last 10-15 years, not to mention the closure of a couple of manufacturing industries in Jacksonville between 2004-2010. The case could be made 20 years ago for completely 4 laning US 67 in Illinois, but less so now. US 67 is supposed to be widened soon for several miles through New Deli to Jerseyville (which is part of the St Louis metro area anyway), but I don't see any new construction happening beyond that. IMO, I think rebuilding I-55 around Springfield (which is still 4 lanes) should be a higher priority than US 67.
This is one of the weird factors of highway planning and Illinois is not alone. i have seen it in all of the sections and threads in AARoads.
Logistics, manufacturing, and other smaller industry require for the most part, proximity to a 4 lane highway. Not necessarily an interstate grade, but some form of freeway that is accommodating for trucks.
These counties or regional interests band together to try and get employment up in their areas, seek out these consultants/lobbyists/snake oil salesmen whose job is to get their location on the map for these firms to consider.
When failures occur due to no 4 lane freeway, these interests rattle their political representatives and tell them they need a 4 lane highway or no employer will come to their town.
For many, many years, western Illinois has complained about a distinct lack of investment in these type of employers. So Illinois comes up with this US-67 and CKC plan to try and invest in the area.
This issue comes up a lot, and it is difficult to gauge the success of some of these highway plans based on the desire to bring economic value to a particular area.
This is so true. In this case, I truly do not understand the point of I-172/IL-336. It is the classic definition of a pork barrel project. All the money wasted there could have upgraded US 20 which was/is more needed.
Most of that US 36 Traffic across Missouri continues on I 72 to Springfield, not 336. 6 laneing I 55 would probably be the better solution for the St Louis bypassing traffic using US 36, which isn't very heavy, but is an easy, fast drive across the state. I guess with the sky high property taxes the Galena area is no longer a retirement draw, back in the 80s we had a teacher who was talking about retiring there. It is a nice quaint picturesque area that with better roads would probably draw a better tourist traffic.
Yes, rebuilding the I-55/72 combo should have been a priority as well. And yes, a four lane highway would help with Galena tourism.
Quote from: I-39 on January 04, 2021, 09:18:21 AM
Quote from: captkirk_4 on January 04, 2021, 08:44:46 AM
Quote from: I-39 on January 03, 2021, 07:58:45 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 02, 2021, 11:49:55 PM
Quote from: Lyon Wonder on January 01, 2021, 06:45:45 PM
West central Illinois has seen population decline in the last 10-15 years, not to mention the closure of a couple of manufacturing industries in Jacksonville between 2004-2010. The case could be made 20 years ago for completely 4 laning US 67 in Illinois, but less so now. US 67 is supposed to be widened soon for several miles through New Deli to Jerseyville (which is part of the St Louis metro area anyway), but I don't see any new construction happening beyond that. IMO, I think rebuilding I-55 around Springfield (which is still 4 lanes) should be a higher priority than US 67.
This is one of the weird factors of highway planning and Illinois is not alone. i have seen it in all of the sections and threads in AARoads.
Logistics, manufacturing, and other smaller industry require for the most part, proximity to a 4 lane highway. Not necessarily an interstate grade, but some form of freeway that is accommodating for trucks.
These counties or regional interests band together to try and get employment up in their areas, seek out these consultants/lobbyists/snake oil salesmen whose job is to get their location on the map for these firms to consider.
When failures occur due to no 4 lane freeway, these interests rattle their political representatives and tell them they need a 4 lane highway or no employer will come to their town.
For many, many years, western Illinois has complained about a distinct lack of investment in these type of employers. So Illinois comes up with this US-67 and CKC plan to try and invest in the area.
This issue comes up a lot, and it is difficult to gauge the success of some of these highway plans based on the desire to bring economic value to a particular area.
This is so true. In this case, I truly do not understand the point of I-172/IL-336. It is the classic definition of a pork barrel project. All the money wasted there could have upgraded US 20 which was/is more needed.
Most of that US 36 Traffic across Missouri continues on I 72 to Springfield, not 336. 6 laneing I 55 would probably be the better solution for the St Louis bypassing traffic using US 36, which isn't very heavy, but is an easy, fast drive across the state. I guess with the sky high property taxes the Galena area is no longer a retirement draw, back in the 80s we had a teacher who was talking about retiring there. It is a nice quaint picturesque area that with better roads would probably draw a better tourist traffic.
Yes, rebuilding the I-55/72 combo should have been a priority as well. And yes, a four lane highway would help with Galena tourism.
As for the 55/72 combo around Springfield, it needed it 25 years ago. I remember when they rebuilt the bridges in the early 80's they were built with 3 lanes. All for naught as they will no doubt be demolished in a reconstruct. Most people don't know, but that 55/72 combo was built on top of 2 old coal strip mines. The Railsplitter Southbound rest stop south of the Sherman exit used to be a mining town called "Peabody" (for Peabody Coal). And the other mine is now the cloverleaf with IL-29. There was also a smaller one at Ridgely Road. Most of these mines were played out by the end of WW2.
I agree that Illinois property taxes have caused a lot of problems except for teachers and public sector unions. Illinois essentially took a "pay day loan" against future property tax revenue and it is sucking out the general budget. Fortunately that amendment to separate road taxes from general revenue will be huge in the next 25 years, but they have a lot of catching up to do.
Years ago the plan was to connect US-20 with Iowa south of Dubuque. Then back up to east of Peosta. Even with Iowa DOT finishing the SW Arterial (US-52) this past year, people doubt that will ever happen still. IDOT still owns the land in Whisky Hollow between Dunn and Sandy Ridge down to the Mississippi River. This would essentially allow US-20 truck traffic to avoid the Julien Dubuque Bridge & downtown completely. I think it was laid out way back in the 1950's when a US-20 Freeway was still on the books. I will have to go find that old plan again.
Quote from: edwaleni on January 04, 2021, 11:35:08 AMYears ago the plan was to connect US-20 with Iowa south of Dubuque. Then back up to east of Peosta. Even with Iowa DOT finishing the SW Arterial (US-52) this past year, people doubt that will ever happen still. IDOT still owns the land in Whisky Hollow between Dunn and Sandy Ridge down to the Mississippi River. This would essentially allow US-20 truck traffic to avoid the Julien Dubuque Bridge & downtown completely. I think it was laid out way back in the 1950's when a US-20 Freeway was still on the books. I will have to go find that old plan again.
Very interesting. Yes, that would make the most logical sense. It would be difficult to upgrade the Julian Dubuque bridge to freeway standards. Hindsight is 20/20, but perhaps they should have focused on fully upgrading US 20 to interstate standards (eastern I-82?) from Rockford to I-35 instead of building I-88 from Aurora to the Quad Cities. It would have made for a better I-80 reliever.
Quote from: I-39 on January 04, 2021, 11:53:05 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 04, 2021, 11:35:08 AMYears ago the plan was to connect US-20 with Iowa south of Dubuque. Then back up to east of Peosta. Even with Iowa DOT finishing the SW Arterial (US-52) this past year, people doubt that will ever happen still. IDOT still owns the land in Whisky Hollow between Dunn and Sandy Ridge down to the Mississippi River. This would essentially allow US-20 truck traffic to avoid the Julien Dubuque Bridge & downtown completely. I think it was laid out way back in the 1950's when a US-20 Freeway was still on the books. I will have to go find that old plan again.
Very interesting. Yes, that would make the most logical sense. It would be difficult to upgrade the Julian Dubuque bridge to freeway standards. Hindsight is 20/20, but perhaps they should have focused on fully upgrading US 20 to interstate standards (eastern I-82?) from Rockford to I-35 instead of building I-88 from Aurora to the Quad Cities. It would have made for a better I-80 reliever.
I-88 (formerly IL-5) was for the most part a political animal. When the original plan for a West Suburban Expressway out of Chicago was developed prior to WW2, they envisioned it connecting with a future US-30 expressway to Moline.
ISTHA was given the ability to build the planned West Suburban Expressway and US-30 Expressway using their own ROW, but it too ran into political troubles at both ends.
When the East-West Tollway Extension was being planned, the politics from DeKalb and NIU were significant. That is why it takes a northern jog before coming back down to Rock Falls and eventually ending at what else? US-30! This is where IDOT had planned the west end of the original US-30 Expressway to Moline in 1941.
ISTHA didn't want that northern jog at all but were forced to accept it. It became an albatross for years as the road from DeKalb to Rock Falls had very little traffic for many, many years. Once the Legislature changed the Tollway charter to allow it to become a indefinite entity, they rebuilt the west end using a bond refinancing tool, which they weren't allowed to do before.
The east end of I-88 was originally designed to meet I-294 in Hinsdale! The Mayor of Oakbrook got involved and it got pushed north to meet with the then I-90 (Eisenhower) now I-290. But then Cook County got involved because Mayor Daley the First thought the road would be used to allow Chicago workers to live outside the city limits, something he was very against. That is why the east end narrowed down to only 1 lane and later became part of the Hillside Strangler. A political design decision from the early 1950's didnt get resolved until Governor Ryan took office some 50 years later.
So there is logic and metrics in highway planning and then there is politics. And in Illinois, if it involves money, then it involves politics. This is why this regional road routing is so unusual.
Quote from: edwaleni on January 04, 2021, 01:27:22 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 04, 2021, 11:53:05 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 04, 2021, 11:35:08 AMYears ago the plan was to connect US-20 with Iowa south of Dubuque. Then back up to east of Peosta. Even with Iowa DOT finishing the SW Arterial (US-52) this past year, people doubt that will ever happen still. IDOT still owns the land in Whisky Hollow between Dunn and Sandy Ridge down to the Mississippi River. This would essentially allow US-20 truck traffic to avoid the Julien Dubuque Bridge & downtown completely. I think it was laid out way back in the 1950's when a US-20 Freeway was still on the books. I will have to go find that old plan again.
Very interesting. Yes, that would make the most logical sense. It would be difficult to upgrade the Julian Dubuque bridge to freeway standards. Hindsight is 20/20, but perhaps they should have focused on fully upgrading US 20 to interstate standards (eastern I-82?) from Rockford to I-35 instead of building I-88 from Aurora to the Quad Cities. It would have made for a better I-80 reliever.
I-88 (formerly IL-5) was for the most part a political animal. When the original plan for a West Suburban Expressway out of Chicago was developed prior to WW2, they envisioned it connecting with a future US-30 expressway to Moline.
ISTHA was given the ability to build the planned West Suburban Expressway and US-30 Expressway using their own ROW, but it too ran into political troubles at both ends.
When the East-West Tollway Extension was being planned, the politics from DeKalb and NIU were significant. That is why it takes a northern jog before coming back down to Rock Falls and eventually ending at what else? US-30! This is where IDOT had planned the west end of the original US-30 Expressway to Moline in 1941.
ISTHA didn't want that northern jog at all but were forced to accept it. It became an albatross for years as the road from DeKalb to Rock Falls had very little traffic for many, many years. Once the Legislature changed the Tollway charter to allow it to become a indefinite entity, they rebuilt the west end using a bond refinancing tool, which they weren't allowed to do before.
The east end of I-88 was originally designed to meet I-294 in Hinsdale! The Mayor of Oakbrook got involved and it got pushed north to meet with the then I-90 (Eisenhower) now I-290. But then Cook County got involved because Mayor Daley the First thought the road would be used to allow Chicago workers to live outside the city limits, something he was very against. That is why the east end narrowed down to only 1 lane and later became part of the Hillside Strangler. A political design decision from the early 1950's didnt get resolved until Governor Ryan took office some 50 years later.
So there is logic and metrics in highway planning and then there is politics. And in Illinois, if it involves money, then it involves politics. This is why this regional road routing is so unusual.
So in other words, the IL-5/I-88 corridor is one big political joke.
Spot on about the last point. That is also why the freeway/tollway system in the Chicagoland area is inadequate to begin with, politics shut down much needed freeways such as the IL-53 extension and Fox Valley Freeway.
The tollway route were out together in The mid fifties and the east West was on it.
I don't know if any 50s plan unless it was the initial tollway one which was once on this site but I can't seem to find.
The main blueprint was the supplemental freeway system. The original corridor ideas first appeared in December 1966.
I would sure love to see the 1953 toll plan.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JMPzyHlZ1zvkmV3lTcJ06us4sddr1VLO/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JMPzyHlZ1zvkmV3lTcJ06us4sddr1VLO/view)
Interesting tidbit from this 1976 supplemental freeway report. They recommended even back then FAP 401 (US 20) be made an expressway grade highway and not a complete freeway. Wonder if it would have been built had they stuck to this.
Also interesting to note how most of corridor 67 was recommend as an improved two lane, and I-39 between Rochelle and Normal was recommended as a four lane expressway. Even back then, they didn't think 67 warranted four lanes.
I recall that in the 1980s or so that IDOT was seriously considering a US 20 freeway routing that included tunneling through a ridge near Galena.
Mike
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 01:48:17 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JMPzyHlZ1zvkmV3lTcJ06us4sddr1VLO/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JMPzyHlZ1zvkmV3lTcJ06us4sddr1VLO/view)
Interesting tidbit from this 1976 supplemental freeway report. They recommended even back then FAP 401 (US 20) be made an expressway grade highway and not a complete freeway. Wonder if it would have been built had they stuck to this.
Also interesting to note how most of corridor 67 was recommend as an improved two lane, and I-39 between Rochelle and Normal was recommended as a four lane expressway. Even back then, they didn't think 67 warranted four lanes.
The Chastain study of FAP 412 from Oglesby to Normal did have a 4-lane expressway option, and nearly got built that way until Gov. Thompson intervened, with the planned Diamond-Star auto plant in Normal being one of the deciding factors.
And the one that turned out almost exactly as planned here was US 51 from Bloomington to Sandoval...minus a few miles of 4-laning from south of Assumption to IL 16 yet to be completed.
Quote from: Rick Powell on January 05, 2021, 03:21:01 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 01:48:17 PM
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JMPzyHlZ1zvkmV3lTcJ06us4sddr1VLO/view (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JMPzyHlZ1zvkmV3lTcJ06us4sddr1VLO/view)
Interesting tidbit from this 1976 supplemental freeway report. They recommended even back then FAP 401 (US 20) be made an expressway grade highway and not a complete freeway. Wonder if it would have been built had they stuck to this.
Also interesting to note how most of corridor 67 was recommend as an improved two lane, and I-39 between Rochelle and Normal was recommended as a four lane expressway. Even back then, they didn't think 67 warranted four lanes.
The Chastain study of FAP 412 from Oglesby to Normal did have a 4-lane expressway option, and nearly got built that way until Gov. Thompson intervened, with the planned Diamond-Star auto plant in Normal being one of the deciding factors.
And the one that turned out almost exactly as planned here was US 51 from Bloomington to Sandoval...minus a few miles of 4-laning from south of Assumption to IL 16 yet to be completed.
But this plan had the I-88 to I-80 section as an expressway as well. Plus, wasn't the "expressway" option between Oglesby and Normal going to include interchanges at major junctions anyway?
I still think IDOT erred and should have built US 51 from Bloomington and Decatur as an interstate.
Anyway, it's a travesty US 20 is still not four-laned decades later.
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 03:24:45 PM
But this plan had the I-88 to I-80 section as an expressway as well. Plus, wasn't the "expressway" option between Oglesby and Normal going to include interchanges at major junctions anyway?
Anyway, it's a travesty US 20 is still not four-laned decades later.
I-88 to I-80: back in the early 70s I was on a crew that did the soil borings for many of the bridges in La Salle County north of I-80. I-39 got built pretty much in line where we drilled as a freeway. Our preliminary work was before the 1976 report came out, and there had to have been plan prep going on for the Mendota area in the later 70s since the section north of US 34 was built and opened up in 1984. So, I am guessing IDOT willfully ignored the findings of the report for I-39 between I-88/I-80 for whatever reason.
Oglesby-Normal: I can't recall out of memory which junctions would have been at-grade and which ones would have had full interchanges in the expressway versions. There were many sub-alignments that were looked at. Probably US 24 was a full interchange due to its proximity to the railroad. I doubt places like Tonica would have warranted a full interchange in the expressway version, but not sure.
Quote from: Rick Powell on January 05, 2021, 03:21:01 PM
The Chastain study of FAP 412 from Oglesby to Normal did have a 4-lane expressway option, and nearly got built that way until Gov. Thompson intervened, with the planned Diamond-Star auto plant in Normal being one of the deciding factors.
And the one that turned out almost exactly as planned here was US 51 from Bloomington to Sandoval...minus a few miles of 4-laning from south of Assumption to IL 16 yet to be completed.
I remember the Governor Thompson intervention. It's why US 50 from O"Fallon to Carlye was never finished and has these never used bridges.
I don't think US-51 will ever reach Pana or Vandalia in a 4 lane form. The Pana newspaper said the feedback was nearly 100% negative at the public hearings.
The 4 lane will probably some day get extended to IL-16 and a controlled intersection placed so it will end safely, but no farther.
As for the Vandalia part, I wasn't at the public hearings but followed the proceedings and design alternatives pretty closely. The citizens weren't against the idea of making US-51 4 lane, they just couldn't agree on what the best option was.
They wanted the best of all worlds. No bypass of the city, no real estate condemnations either. The last alternative I saw pitched was this ridiculous re-routing of US-51 on I-70 to the west side of town and then creating a bypass south of the city, cross the Kaskaskia River and join the current ROW.
Everyone and their mom knows the best routing was the Kaskaskia River route east of town, but the city fathers don't want anyone being able to "drive by" town without stopping. Even though several thousand trucks do that daily on I-70.
But now its a dead deal.
When someone in Greenville, Illinois told me it was a bad deal, I said look at Effingham Illinois. That used to be a train stop town with a flashing red for US-40 and US-45. 60 years after 2 interstates were built its a thriving crossroads where both roads bypass town.
Vandalia and US-51 would have made a great central Illinois spine line for logistics routing from the south. Now it will just remain a exit for gas and a bathroom at Hardee's.
I asked someone at headquarters about that report in the nineties.yes they ignored it.
51 was cancelled in the Federal Register last year it's over. Pana is under the old EIS. The magazine they would not fight a bypass but didn't want it. So looks like IDOT just dropped it all. As Edwaleni said.
Quote from: Rick Powell on January 05, 2021, 05:35:32 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 03:24:45 PM
But this plan had the I-88 to I-80 section as an expressway as well. Plus, wasn't the "expressway" option between Oglesby and Normal going to include interchanges at major junctions anyway?
Anyway, it's a travesty US 20 is still not four-laned decades later.
I-88 to I-80: back in the early 70s I was on a crew that did the soil borings for many of the bridges in La Salle County north of I-80. I-39 got built pretty much in line where we drilled as a freeway. Our preliminary work was before the 1976 report came out, and there had to have been plan prep going on for the Mendota area in the later 70s since the section north of US 34 was built and opened up in 1984. So, I am guessing IDOT willfully ignored the findings of the report for I-39 between I-88/I-80 for whatever reason.
Oglesby-Normal: I can't recall out of memory which junctions would have been at-grade and which ones would have had full interchanges in the expressway versions. There were many sub-alignments that were looked at. Probably US 24 was a full interchange due to its proximity to the railroad. I doubt places like Tonica would have warranted a full interchange in the expressway version, but not sure.
Wasn't there still an active railroad on that ROW at the time? Or was that south of Rockford? I remember many parts of 51/39 were built on former railroad ROW.
Quote from: Rick Powell on January 05, 2021, 05:35:32 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 03:24:45 PM
But this plan had the I-88 to I-80 section as an expressway as well. Plus, wasn't the "expressway" option between Oglesby and Normal going to include interchanges at major junctions anyway?
Anyway, it's a travesty US 20 is still not four-laned decades later.
I-88 to I-80: back in the early 70s I was on a crew that did the soil borings for many of the bridges in La Salle County north of I-80. I-39 got built pretty much in line where we drilled as a freeway. Our preliminary work was before the 1976 report came out, and there had to have been plan prep going on for the Mendota area in the later 70s since the section north of US 34 was built and opened up in 1984. So, I am guessing IDOT willfully ignored the findings of the report for I-39 between I-88/I-80 for whatever reason.
Oglesby-Normal: I can't recall out of memory which junctions would have been at-grade and which ones would have had full interchanges in the expressway versions. There were many sub-alignments that were looked at. Probably US 24 was a full interchange due to its proximity to the railroad. I doubt places like Tonica would have warranted a full interchange in the expressway version, but not sure.
This report talks about some of the alignments, perhaps it will jog your memory.
https://books.google.com/books?id=_JU1AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=_JU1AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false)
Looks like interchanges were going to be placed at almost every junction that ended up getting one on I-39. My guess is had the expressway gone through, there would have eventually been a push to make it a freeway as there would've been a lot of accidents.
Quote from: 3467 on January 05, 2021, 05:47:26 PM
51 was cancelled in the Federal Register last year it's over. Pana is under the old EIS. The magazine they would not fight a bypass but didn't want it. So looks like IDOT just dropped it all. As Edwaleni said.
It never was needed south of Decatur to begin with. I'm surprised it made it as far as it did.
Quote from: edwaleni on January 05, 2021, 05:49:56 PM
Wasn't there still an active railroad on that ROW at the time? Or was that south of Rockford? I remember many parts of 51/39 were built on former railroad ROW.
There was an active north-south rail line from Mendota to Decatur paralleling US 51 until the mid-80s (the old Illinois Central "Gruber Line", the first land-grant railroad in the US and the longest in the world when it was built, stretching from Galena to Cairo with a branch from Centralia to the then-growing city of Chicago. Everything north of Centralia and south of Freeport was removed except for little bits here and there. I was following a crew that was removing the old crossings on state highways in 1987. If the RR had been abandoned 10 years earlier, alignments using the old roadbed might have been considered. I-39 does use the old US 51 in a few places, at Hudson Road north of Normal being one.
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 05:56:08 PM
Looks like interchanges were going to be placed at almost every junction that ended up getting one on I-39. My guess is had the expressway gone through, there would have eventually been a push to make it a freeway as there would've been a lot of accidents.
Yep, the expressway alternative E-85 had planned interchanges at every location where they were eventually built as a freeway, except US 51 south of Oglesby. I'm sure there would have been some additional crashes with the at-grade crossings, although most of the cross roads not at an interchange are pretty lightly travelled now. Other than omitting about 13 extra overhead bridges, the expressway version didn't really save that much construction from what I see. I remember a few local roads getting a re-paving job to offset the road closures, but not a great expense in the grand scheme of things.
I think it got the Interstate designation before South of Oglesby was to be a freeway.
Also the original routing was something . In the December 66 plan it ran Rockford to Dixon South to Peoria and down 121 to Decatur.. They had a freeway along 24 too.
That particular routing took it by a steel plant and was the Kerner curve and led to the famed Interstate 180.
Back to US 20.
So now that the EIS has expired, if they were to scale back the previous freeway plans and make it closer to say, what IL-336 is, would they have to redo the entire EIS from scratch or could they just simply update the existing one?
Now that the legislature passed the gas tax increase with indexing and with the transportation lockbox amendment in place, theoretically, a four lane US 20 is more feasible now.
I would think and Rick Powell really knows they would all have to start from scratch.
The 336 is upended by US 24. Why wouldn't 24 and some improvements in Illinois 9 be enough? They are.
20 Purpose and need projected much higher traffic. .
I wonder if 67 would too with a floodplain issue. Those have become a real issue
Like I said Rick Powell could really tell us.
Right now I think the few miles of 34 near Monmouth and 67 from Jerseyville to the 4 lane and possibly 127 south of Pickneyville are the only ones that might still be valid.
Quote from: 3467 on January 05, 2021, 07:52:11 PM
I would think and Rick Powell really knows they would all have to start from scratch.
The 336 is upended by US 24. Why wouldn't 24 and some improvements in Illinois 9 be enough? They are.
20 Purpose and need projected much higher traffic. .
I wonder if 67 would too with a floodplain issue. Those have become a real issue
Like I said Rick Powell could really tell us.
Right now I think the few miles of 34 near Monmouth and 67 from Jerseyville to the 4 lane and possibly 127 south of Pickneyville are the only ones that might still be valid.
I was using the style of highway 336 is as an example of what they should do on US 20, a four lane at grade divided highway with an interchange at any intersection projected to need a stop light.
I do not believe 336 or 29 should be built any further.
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 08:01:23 PM
I was using the style of highway 336 is as an example of what they should do on US 20, a four lane at grade divided highway with an interchange at any intersection projected to need a stop light.
I do not believe 336 or 29 should be built any further.
Illinois State Route 336 should be decommissioned, since its independent/non-multiplexed segment between Macomb and Peoria is basically cancelled
The rest of the route from I-172 to Macomb is multiplexed with IL 110/CKC, and we all know Illinois isn't decommissioning 110
Agree on 336 number.
Quote from: ilpt4u on January 05, 2021, 09:58:12 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 08:01:23 PM
I was using the style of highway 336 is as an example of what they should do on US 20, a four lane at grade divided highway with an interchange at any intersection projected to need a stop light.
I do not believe 336 or 29 should be built any further.
Illinois State Route 336 should be decommissioned, since its independent/non-multiplexed segment between Macomb and Peoria is basically cancelled
The rest of the route from I-172 to Macomb is multiplexed with IL 110/CKC, and we all know Illinois isn't decommissioning 110
IDOT still has the corridor protected from Peoria to the west side of Canton. US-67 is protected on the east side of Macomb. When they release the protection, then I will know its kaput.
As for US-20:
The IDOT Office of Planning and Programming classifies US Route 20 as a Major Arterial Highway within the rural State highway system. In general, this means the route connects large towns or cities, "long-distance trip" traffic generators, and integrates interstate and intercounty services, while providing a high degree of mobility at high operating speeds and direct routing for long trips.
The proposed project is needed to complete the missing four-lane section on US Route 20 between Illinois Route 84 northwest of Galena and the Freeport Bypass. Upon completion of this project and the Mississippi Bridge at Dubuque, US Route 20 would have continuous four-lane capacity through northwestern Illinois and northern Iowa from Rockford to Waterloo.Seems to indicate that IDOT is expecting at some future time a new bridge over the Mississippi.
Record of Decision.
https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Galena-Bypass/files/US%2020%20Rod.pdf (https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Galena-Bypass/files/US%2020%20Rod.pdf)
Quote from: edwaleni on January 05, 2021, 11:21:07 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on January 05, 2021, 09:58:12 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 08:01:23 PM
I was using the style of highway 336 is as an example of what they should do on US 20, a four lane at grade divided highway with an interchange at any intersection projected to need a stop light.
I do not believe 336 or 29 should be built any further.
Illinois State Route 336 should be decommissioned, since its independent/non-multiplexed segment between Macomb and Peoria is basically cancelled
The rest of the route from I-172 to Macomb is multiplexed with IL 110/CKC, and we all know Illinois isn't decommissioning 110
IDOT still has the corridor protected from Peoria to the west side of Canton. US-67 is protected on the east side of Macomb. When they release the protection, then I will know its kaput.
As for US-20:
The IDOT Office of Planning and Programming classifies US Route 20 as a Major Arterial Highway within the rural State highway system. In general, this means the route connects large towns or cities, "long-distance trip" traffic generators, and integrates interstate and intercounty services, while providing a high degree of mobility at high operating speeds and direct routing for long trips.
The proposed project is needed to complete the missing four-lane section on US Route 20 between Illinois Route 84 northwest of Galena and the Freeport Bypass. Upon completion of this project and the Mississippi Bridge at Dubuque, US Route 20 would have continuous four-lane capacity through northwestern Illinois and northern Iowa from Rockford to Waterloo.
Seems to indicate that IDOT is expecting at some future time a new bridge over the Mississippi.
Record of Decision.
https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Galena-Bypass/files/US%2020%20Rod.pdf (https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Galena-Bypass/files/US%2020%20Rod.pdf)
Maybe, but there hasn't been any move on this project in quite a while. Also, there are no indications anywhere about a new bridge. The existing bridge will have to be replaced at some point, so when the time comes, simply replace it with a four lane bridge similar to the US 151 bridge, except modernized.
Quote from: I-39 on January 06, 2021, 08:51:26 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 05, 2021, 11:21:07 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on January 05, 2021, 09:58:12 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 08:01:23 PM
I was using the style of highway 336 is as an example of what they should do on US 20, a four lane at grade divided highway with an interchange at any intersection projected to need a stop light.
I do not believe 336 or 29 should be built any further.
Illinois State Route 336 should be decommissioned, since its independent/non-multiplexed segment between Macomb and Peoria is basically cancelled
The rest of the route from I-172 to Macomb is multiplexed with IL 110/CKC, and we all know Illinois isn't decommissioning 110
IDOT still has the corridor protected from Peoria to the west side of Canton. US-67 is protected on the east side of Macomb. When they release the protection, then I will know its kaput.
As for US-20:
The IDOT Office of Planning and Programming classifies US Route 20 as a Major Arterial Highway within the rural State highway system. In general, this means the route connects large towns or cities, "long-distance trip" traffic generators, and integrates interstate and intercounty services, while providing a high degree of mobility at high operating speeds and direct routing for long trips.
The proposed project is needed to complete the missing four-lane section on US Route 20 between Illinois Route 84 northwest of Galena and the Freeport Bypass. Upon completion of this project and the Mississippi Bridge at Dubuque, US Route 20 would have continuous four-lane capacity through northwestern Illinois and northern Iowa from Rockford to Waterloo.
Seems to indicate that IDOT is expecting at some future time a new bridge over the Mississippi.
Record of Decision.
https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Galena-Bypass/files/US%2020%20Rod.pdf (https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Galena-Bypass/files/US%2020%20Rod.pdf)
Maybe, but there hasn't been any move on this project in quite a while. Also, there are no indications anywhere about a new bridge. The existing bridge will have to be replaced at some point, so when the time comes, simply replace it with a four lane bridge similar to the US 151 bridge, except modernized.
This is one of the discussions over in the Iowa threads. IDOT has land protected for a future bridge near Whisky Hollow in the Illinois side. I always thought the future US-20 Expressway was crossing south of Dubuque to line up with a future Dubuque US-20 Bypass on the Iowa side. When the SW Arterial (US-52) was approved on the Iowa side the planned termination at US-52 will be in alignment across the Mississippi from Whisky Hollow on the Illinois side. I can't imagine they would spend all the money for a 4 lane Julien Dubuque bridge replacement when they can't/won't upgrade US-20 through the town center. In other words why raise capacity for a bridge that crosses into several traffic lights in the city center? Doesn't make sense.
Also the size of those bridges/exits IowaDOT built for that arterial are way more significant than what a simple bypass would contain. It looks like it was being designed for something that would be more significant in the future. Just saying.
Quote from: edwaleni on January 06, 2021, 09:47:24 AM
Quote from: I-39 on January 06, 2021, 08:51:26 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 05, 2021, 11:21:07 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on January 05, 2021, 09:58:12 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 05, 2021, 08:01:23 PM
I was using the style of highway 336 is as an example of what they should do on US 20, a four lane at grade divided highway with an interchange at any intersection projected to need a stop light.
I do not believe 336 or 29 should be built any further.
Illinois State Route 336 should be decommissioned, since its independent/non-multiplexed segment between Macomb and Peoria is basically cancelled
The rest of the route from I-172 to Macomb is multiplexed with IL 110/CKC, and we all know Illinois isn't decommissioning 110
IDOT still has the corridor protected from Peoria to the west side of Canton. US-67 is protected on the east side of Macomb. When they release the protection, then I will know its kaput.
As for US-20:
The IDOT Office of Planning and Programming classifies US Route 20 as a Major Arterial Highway within the rural State highway system. In general, this means the route connects large towns or cities, "long-distance trip" traffic generators, and integrates interstate and intercounty services, while providing a high degree of mobility at high operating speeds and direct routing for long trips.
The proposed project is needed to complete the missing four-lane section on US Route 20 between Illinois Route 84 northwest of Galena and the Freeport Bypass. Upon completion of this project and the Mississippi Bridge at Dubuque, US Route 20 would have continuous four-lane capacity through northwestern Illinois and northern Iowa from Rockford to Waterloo.
Seems to indicate that IDOT is expecting at some future time a new bridge over the Mississippi.
Record of Decision.
https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Galena-Bypass/files/US%2020%20Rod.pdf (https://idot.illinois.gov/Assets/uploads/files/IDOT-Projects/District-2/US-20-Galena-Bypass/files/US%2020%20Rod.pdf)
Maybe, but there hasn't been any move on this project in quite a while. Also, there are no indications anywhere about a new bridge. The existing bridge will have to be replaced at some point, so when the time comes, simply replace it with a four lane bridge similar to the US 151 bridge, except modernized.
This is one of the discussions over in the Iowa threads. IDOT has land protected for a future bridge near Whisky Hollow in the Illinois side. I always thought the future US-20 Expressway was crossing south of Dubuque to line up with a future Dubuque US-20 Bypass on the Iowa side. When the SW Arterial (US-52) was approved on the Iowa side the planned termination at US-52 will be in alignment across the Mississippi from Whisky Hollow on the Illinois side. I can't imagine they would spend all the money for a 4 lane Julien Dubuque bridge replacement when they can't/won't upgrade US-20 through the town center. In other words why raise capacity for a bridge that crosses into several traffic lights in the city center? Doesn't make sense.
Also the size of those bridges/exits IowaDOT built for that arterial are way more significant than what a simple bypass would contain. It looks like it was being designed for something that would be more significant in the future. Just saying.
That is a good point, but again, why did they curve the arterial NW rather than connecting it straight west to meet US 20 at Swiss Valley Road? That just doesn't make sense.
IDOT is going to need to give US 20 some attention in the coming years.
There was never anything about a new bridge in any study . Oh btw I have the Feas. Study and that was an expressway. When the district engineer pushed freeway in the EIS it just backfired.
Push for more passing lanes it's the most we can hope for
Also where did you find what's under corridor protection?
Quote from: edwaleni on January 06, 2021, 09:47:24 AM
In other words why raise capacity for a bridge that crosses into several traffic lights in the city center? Doesn't make sense.
Because most of the traffic is going into Dubuque maybe?
Quote from: 3467 on January 05, 2021, 07:52:11 PM
I would think and Rick Powell really knows they would all have to start from scratch.
The 336 is upended by US 24. Why wouldn't 24 and some improvements in Illinois 9 be enough? They are.
20 Purpose and need projected much higher traffic. .
I wonder if 67 would too with a floodplain issue. Those have become a real issue
Like I said Rick Powell could really tell us.
Right now I think the few miles of 34 near Monmouth and 67 from Jerseyville to the 4 lane and possibly 127 south of Pickneyville are the only ones that might still be valid.
I don't know as much as you think, LOL! But basically the amount of re-evaluation required by the feds boils down to three things:
1) how much has changed in the external environment since the original approval. Both built and natural. Elements like population/employment, wetlands and special waste tend to shift over time, and protected species are added and occasionally removed.
2) how much the planned improvement has changed (if it has been re-designed in any way) which would alter the way the project impacts the environment.
3) how the permitting regulations have changed. This mostly hinges on whether the previous planned mitigation is enough, or more or different is needed.
Some projects can get by with a cursory technical re-evaluation while others rise to the level of a Supplemental EIS. If both the nature of the project and the surrounding environment have changed enough, might be better to start from scratch.
Quote from: Rick Powell on January 06, 2021, 09:30:14 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 05, 2021, 07:52:11 PM
I would think and Rick Powell really knows they would all have to start from scratch.
The 336 is upended by US 24. Why wouldn't 24 and some improvements in Illinois 9 be enough? They are.
20 Purpose and need projected much higher traffic. .
I wonder if 67 would too with a floodplain issue. Those have become a real issue
Like I said Rick Powell could really tell us.
Right now I think the few miles of 34 near Monmouth and 67 from Jerseyville to the 4 lane and possibly 127 south of Pickneyville are the only ones that might still be valid.
I don't know as much as you think, LOL! But basically the amount of re-evaluation required by the feds boils down to three things:
1) how much has changed in the external environment since the original approval. Both built and natural. Elements like population/employment, wetlands and special waste tend to shift over time, and protected species are added and occasionally removed.
2) how much the planned improvement has changed (if it has been re-designed in any way) which would alter the way the project impacts the environment.
3) how the permitting regulations have changed. This mostly hinges on whether the previous planned mitigation is enough, or more or different is needed.
Some projects can get by with a cursory technical re-evaluation while others rise to the level of a Supplemental EIS. If both the nature of the project and the surrounding environment have changed enough, might be better to start from scratch.
In the case of US 20, I don't think too much has changed that would require a whole scale change. Maybe if they scale it back to an at-grade expressway they'll need to change more throughly.
From what I read of the U.S. 30 project they had to do an SEIS because of floodplain rule changes same with 34. Neither stopped project but sort of did because of huge cost increase.
I really think they would have to start from scratch.
Quote from: I-39 on January 06, 2021, 09:51:20 PM
Quote from: Rick Powell on January 06, 2021, 09:30:14 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 05, 2021, 07:52:11 PM
I would think and Rick Powell really knows they would all have to start from scratch.
The 336 is upended by US 24. Why wouldn't 24 and some improvements in Illinois 9 be enough? They are.
20 Purpose and need projected much higher traffic. .
I wonder if 67 would too with a floodplain issue. Those have become a real issue
Like I said Rick Powell could really tell us.
Right now I think the few miles of 34 near Monmouth and 67 from Jerseyville to the 4 lane and possibly 127 south of Pickneyville are the only ones that might still be valid.
I don't know as much as you think, LOL! But basically the amount of re-evaluation required by the feds boils down to three things:
1) how much has changed in the external environment since the original approval. Both built and natural. Elements like population/employment, wetlands and special waste tend to shift over time, and protected species are added and occasionally removed.
2) how much the planned improvement has changed (if it has been re-designed in any way) which would alter the way the project impacts the environment.
3) how the permitting regulations have changed. This mostly hinges on whether the previous planned mitigation is enough, or more or different is needed.
Some projects can get by with a cursory technical re-evaluation while others rise to the level of a Supplemental EIS. If both the nature of the project and the surrounding environment have changed enough, might be better to start from scratch.
In the case of US 20, I don't think too much has changed that would require a whole scale change. Maybe if they scale it back to an at-grade expressway they'll need to change more throughly.
All it takes is one member of the Illinois Congressional Delegation to tag it to the next spending bill. The last Covid spending bill had more than the expressway cost for US-20 going to foreign countries for "social behavior examinations" and other frivolous expenditures.
The republicans got rid of the earmarks and the democrats never went back so it's not going to happen.
There are Build Grants. I think they are still called that. Check out a Better 54 they tried for a 3 lane route 54.
Those don't require IDOT but I think you need a town or county to sign on.
Quote from: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
There are Build Grants. I think they are still called that. Check out a Better 54 they tried for a 3 lane route 54.
Those don't require IDOT but I think you need a town or county to sign on.
There is a grant provision in the COVID Relief Act of 2020
Surface Transportation Block Grant Program (STBGP) funds are available until Sept. 30, 2024.But it is only to pay employees and contractors to maintain roads and only for cities of less than 200,000.
As for the 2021 Omnibus Spending Bill.
Provides $49.1 billion for the Federal Highway Administration, $166 million below 2020 levels, most
of which ($46.4 billion) is sub-allocated to states and local governments as part of the federal-aid
highway program and is consistent with the one-year extension of the FAST Act at FY 2020 funding
levels. $2 billion is set aside for discretionary Highway Infrastructure Programs, $166 million below FY
2020.
It would be the last one in the omnibus? My suggestion is apply for passing lanes.
Quote from: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 02:32:37 PM
It would be the last one in the omnibus? My suggestion is apply for passing lanes.
No, go for a four lane expressway, but do it from east to west (easiest to hardest). Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and then Elizabeth to Galena. Should have done it like this from the get go.
I said passing lanes these grants are like 10 or 20 million . That would. Just pay for more studies. A better 54 doesn't have it's old application up anymore . It was for 20 million and 20 miles of passing lane.They still didn't get it.
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 02:32:37 PM
It would be the last one in the omnibus? My suggestion is apply for passing lanes.
No, go for a four lane expressway, but do it from east to west (easiest to hardest). Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and then Elizabeth to Galena. Should have done it like this from the get go.
It wouldn't surprise me if traffic increased dramatically if US 20 was four lanes west to Elizabeth. There was a huge traffic jump on US 51 south of Oglesby once the Abe Lincoln Bridge opened on I-39. I used to drive I-39/US 51 frequently when I first moved from Green Bay to St Louis in the late 80's. I only encountered a few trucks when I had to drive through Peru, but once I-39 was extended south of the Illinois River it felt like traffic almost doubled between the river and Bloomington even though parts were still two lane US 51 until the early 90's.
Quote from: skluth on January 11, 2021, 07:11:48 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 02:32:37 PM
It would be the last one in the omnibus? My suggestion is apply for passing lanes.
No, go for a four lane expressway, but do it from east to west (easiest to hardest). Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and then Elizabeth to Galena. Should have done it like this from the get go.
It wouldn't surprise me if traffic increased dramatically if US 20 was four lanes west to Elizabeth. There was a huge traffic jump on US 51 south of Oglesby once the Abe Lincoln Bridge opened on I-39. I used to drive I-39/US 51 frequently when I first moved from Green Bay to St Louis in the late 80's. I only encountered a few trucks when I had to drive through Peru, but once I-39 was extended south of the Illinois River it felt like traffic almost doubled between the river and Bloomington even though parts were still two lane US 51 until the early 90's.
Absolutely. I don't care what people say, easily the traffic would get to 5 figure ADT if they completed the four lane. Long distance truckers would use it as an alternative to I-80. Just as I-39 was, there would be a lot of induced demand. I believe traffic counts on US 51 we're similar prior to the construction of I-39.
Shame IowaDOT put a nice Interstate/near interstate grade facility in from I-35 to near Dubuque and IDOT can't get their act together and finish it. Yet, they managed to waste a ton of money on IL-336......
US 20 between Rockford and I-35 should have become an eastern I-82 IMO.
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 11, 2021, 07:11:48 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 02:32:37 PM
It would be the last one in the omnibus? My suggestion is apply for passing lanes.
No, go for a four lane expressway, but do it from east to west (easiest to hardest). Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and then Elizabeth to Galena. Should have done it like this from the get go.
It wouldn't surprise me if traffic increased dramatically if US 20 was four lanes west to Elizabeth. There was a huge traffic jump on US 51 south of Oglesby once the Abe Lincoln Bridge opened on I-39. I used to drive I-39/US 51 frequently when I first moved from Green Bay to St Louis in the late 80's. I only encountered a few trucks when I had to drive through Peru, but once I-39 was extended south of the Illinois River it felt like traffic almost doubled between the river and Bloomington even though parts were still two lane US 51 until the early 90's.
Absolutely. I don't care what people say, easily the traffic would get to 5 figure ADT if they completed the four lane. Long distance truckers would use it as an alternative to I-80. Just as I-39 was, there would be a lot of induced demand. I believe traffic counts on US 51 we're similar prior to the construction of I-39.
Shame IowaDOT put a nice Interstate/near interstate grade facility in from I-35 to near Dubuque and IDOT can't get their act together and finish it. Yet, they managed to waste a ton of money on IL-336......
US 20 between Rockford and I-35 should have become an eastern I-82 IMO.
Actually it is 4 lane all the way to Sioux City now. The last segment was finished at Correctionville in 2019. Not Interstate standards west of I-35, but 4 lane none the less. The only 2 lane segment from Sioux City to Rockford is you know where.
Nebraska DOT is currently expanding the 4 lane west of Sioux City and in 2020 are as far as Jackson. I don't think they are going any further west however. Jackson was a pinch point as trucks came through town. I think that was finished in 2020.
Quote from: edwaleni on January 12, 2021, 08:51:02 AM
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 11, 2021, 07:11:48 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 02:32:37 PM
It would be the last one in the omnibus? My suggestion is apply for passing lanes.
No, go for a four lane expressway, but do it from east to west (easiest to hardest). Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and then Elizabeth to Galena. Should have done it like this from the get go.
It wouldn't surprise me if traffic increased dramatically if US 20 was four lanes west to Elizabeth. There was a huge traffic jump on US 51 south of Oglesby once the Abe Lincoln Bridge opened on I-39. I used to drive I-39/US 51 frequently when I first moved from Green Bay to St Louis in the late 80's. I only encountered a few trucks when I had to drive through Peru, but once I-39 was extended south of the Illinois River it felt like traffic almost doubled between the river and Bloomington even though parts were still two lane US 51 until the early 90's.
Absolutely. I don't care what people say, easily the traffic would get to 5 figure ADT if they completed the four lane. Long distance truckers would use it as an alternative to I-80. Just as I-39 was, there would be a lot of induced demand. I believe traffic counts on US 51 we're similar prior to the construction of I-39.
Shame IowaDOT put a nice Interstate/near interstate grade facility in from I-35 to near Dubuque and IDOT can't get their act together and finish it. Yet, they managed to waste a ton of money on IL-336......
US 20 between Rockford and I-35 should have become an eastern I-82 IMO.
Actually it is 4 lane all the way to Sioux City now. The last segment was finished at Correctionville in 2019. Not Interstate standards west of I-35, but 4 lane none the less. The only 2 lane segment from Sioux City to Rockford is you know where.
Nebraska DOT is currently expanding the 4 lane west of Sioux City and in 2020 are as far as Jackson. I don't think they are going any further west however. Jackson was a pinch point as trucks came through town. I think that was finished in 2020.
It is freeway west from I-35 to IA 17, then expressway west of there (most of which could easily be converted to freeway).
I said to I-35 because I don't think a freeway is necessary west of there. In fact, some of the stretches of US 20 west of Fort Dodge were barely needed. It isn't as busy as the eastern section between Dubuque and I-35.
Quote from: I-39 on January 12, 2021, 09:30:55 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 12, 2021, 08:51:02 AM
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 11, 2021, 07:11:48 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 02:32:37 PM
It would be the last one in the omnibus? My suggestion is apply for passing lanes.
No, go for a four lane expressway, but do it from east to west (easiest to hardest). Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and then Elizabeth to Galena. Should have done it like this from the get go.
It wouldn't surprise me if traffic increased dramatically if US 20 was four lanes west to Elizabeth. There was a huge traffic jump on US 51 south of Oglesby once the Abe Lincoln Bridge opened on I-39. I used to drive I-39/US 51 frequently when I first moved from Green Bay to St Louis in the late 80's. I only encountered a few trucks when I had to drive through Peru, but once I-39 was extended south of the Illinois River it felt like traffic almost doubled between the river and Bloomington even though parts were still two lane US 51 until the early 90's.
Absolutely. I don't care what people say, easily the traffic would get to 5 figure ADT if they completed the four lane. Long distance truckers would use it as an alternative to I-80. Just as I-39 was, there would be a lot of induced demand. I believe traffic counts on US 51 we're similar prior to the construction of I-39.
Shame IowaDOT put a nice Interstate/near interstate grade facility in from I-35 to near Dubuque and IDOT can't get their act together and finish it. Yet, they managed to waste a ton of money on IL-336......
US 20 between Rockford and I-35 should have become an eastern I-82 IMO.
Actually it is 4 lane all the way to Sioux City now. The last segment was finished at Correctionville in 2019. Not Interstate standards west of I-35, but 4 lane none the less. The only 2 lane segment from Sioux City to Rockford is you know where.
Nebraska DOT is currently expanding the 4 lane west of Sioux City and in 2020 are as far as Jackson. I don't think they are going any further west however. Jackson was a pinch point as trucks came through town. I think that was finished in 2020.
It is freeway west from I-35 to IA 17, then expressway west of there (most of which could easily be converted to freeway).
I said to I-35 because I don't think a freeway is necessary west of there. In fact, some of the stretches of US 20 west of Fort Dodge were barely needed. It isn't as busy as the eastern section between Dubuque and I-35.
With US-218 and US-18 upgraded to freeway standards north out of Waterloo to Mason City to I-35, I checked some time distance from a common point (Rockford).
Rockford-Twin Cities via Eau Claire - 331 miles
Rockford-Twin Cities via Rochester - 357 miles
Rockford-Twin Cities via Dubuque/Waterloo - 424 miles
Average Speeds:
Rockford-Twin Cities via Eau Claire - 66mph
Rockford-Twin Cities via Rochester - 64mph
Rockford-Twin Cities via Dubuque/Waterloo - 60.5mph
The mileage is no good, and the speed got dragged down on the Freeport to Dubuque segment with an average of 48mph.
So the only town in the west that benefits is really Sioux City. The towns that benefit in the east are only Rockford & Chicago.
Eastbound traffic can divert at Dubuque on US-151 to get to Milwaukee faster
Any eastbound traffic going south of Rockford is better using I-80
Any westbound traffic coming or going northwest is better using 90-94 in any combination
Quote from: edwaleni on January 12, 2021, 08:51:02 AM
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 11, 2021, 07:11:48 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 11, 2021, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 02:32:37 PM
It would be the last one in the omnibus? My suggestion is apply for passing lanes.
No, go for a four lane expressway, but do it from east to west (easiest to hardest). Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and then Elizabeth to Galena. Should have done it like this from the get go.
It wouldn't surprise me if traffic increased dramatically if US 20 was four lanes west to Elizabeth. There was a huge traffic jump on US 51 south of Oglesby once the Abe Lincoln Bridge opened on I-39. I used to drive I-39/US 51 frequently when I first moved from Green Bay to St Louis in the late 80's. I only encountered a few trucks when I had to drive through Peru, but once I-39 was extended south of the Illinois River it felt like traffic almost doubled between the river and Bloomington even though parts were still two lane US 51 until the early 90's.
Absolutely. I don't care what people say, easily the traffic would get to 5 figure ADT if they completed the four lane. Long distance truckers would use it as an alternative to I-80. Just as I-39 was, there would be a lot of induced demand. I believe traffic counts on US 51 we're similar prior to the construction of I-39.
Shame IowaDOT put a nice Interstate/near interstate grade facility in from I-35 to near Dubuque and IDOT can't get their act together and finish it. Yet, they managed to waste a ton of money on IL-336......
US 20 between Rockford and I-35 should have become an eastern I-82 IMO.
Actually it is 4 lane all the way to Sioux City now. The last segment was finished at Correctionville in 2019. Not Interstate standards west of I-35, but 4 lane none the less. The only 2 lane segment from Sioux City to Rockford is you know where.
Nebraska DOT is currently expanding the 4 lane west of Sioux City and in 2020 are as far as Jackson. I don't think they are going any further west however. Jackson was a pinch point as trucks came through town. I think that was finished in 2020.
Problem is if it's not controlled access with a 70mph speed limit truckers will avoid it unless it cuts significant time off the journey. This isn't Smokey and the Bandit anymore, these trucking companies have electronic snitch devices in the trucks monitoring their drivers speed vs the GPS listed limits to where they are, also regulators capping them out leading to the 5 minute passes that block the left lanes on so many Interstates. They will stick with I-80 where they can go 70.
A lot of the big corporations, yes. O/O drivers, though...
Does anyone have any inside info (not what we have on the website) about what the status is on any part of the Freeport to Galena four lane? Is IDOT even trying to pursue it anymore? Has there been any talk of maybe scaling it back to an expressway a la US 67?
I have been trying to find out
Other unknown is Illinois 29
336 home replaced with 24
34 and 67 some construction
127 another study
50 Lebanon bypass the rest cancelled
51 cancelled in federal register
30 cancelled.
That's all
Also like to know 20 and if I am wrong in many others.
Quote from: 3467 on January 15, 2021, 05:18:37 PM
Other unknown is Illinois 29
I think District 4 got a federal decision a few years ago on it, but no money to build, and the eastern Peoria ring road would be a higher priority if the money could be found.
I know 336 because someone in Canton told me. The State Senator told them 336 costs were skyrocketing. I wonder if it had to do with floodplain....but IDOT could do 24 now. While they would like 336 too they realized it's over.
I asked about 29 and the reaction was what's 29?
It's really less a supplemental freeway route than part of the 180 story.
Quote from: 3467 on January 16, 2021, 12:54:35 PM
I know 336 because someone in Canton told me. The State Senator told them 336 costs were skyrocketing. I wonder if it had to do with floodplain....but IDOT could do 24 now. While they would like 336 too they realized it's over.
I asked about 29 and the reaction was what's 29?
It's really less a supplemental free
Actually when the US-24 decision was made as far as Banner IL, the question was asked if IL-336 was dead and the Spoon River Development District president said "No, it wasn't one or the other, we are still pushing for IL-336 for the future"
So I would put IL-336 in the same category as US-50 in southeastern Illinois. Everyone in the area wants it, but the state just can't justify it.
As for the Glacier Shadow Pass, all the studies and engineering is complete. It just can't get funding.
A plan for a 6.5 mile bypass around Galena has advanced to the second phase of IDOT's three-phase highway planning process, but there's little if any construction money available for new projects. As IDOT says about the bypass: "Additional funding is also needed before construction of the proposed bypass can begin. As such, a construction timeline is not available at this time." An eight-county study by Blackhawk Hills Regional Council, headquartered in Rock Falls, is examining how freight moves through northwest Illinois and eastern Iowa. Illinois counties in the study are Jo Daviess, Stephenson, Carroll and Whiteside. Iowa counties are Clinton, Delaware, Dubuque and Jackson.
Preliminary figures show that from 2010 to 2015, there were 175 crashes involving trucks, costing $8.7 million on U.S. 20 between Freeport and Dubuque.During the same period, there were 1,575 non-truck crashes on U.S. 20 from Freeport to Dubuque.
The analysis indicates that a 30 percent reduction in non-truck crashes would save $11.5 million a year.Only the Galena Bypass was funded for land acquisition.
1. What's the point of IL-29? I would've thought any freeway/expressway through this area would have been put to bed when I-39 was built. After all, I-180 barely sees any traffic.
2. IL-336 is not needed, not even and especially the already built section from Quincy to Macomb. Why haven't they ended this yet?
3. The engineering has only been done for the Galena bypass portion of US 20 between Freeport and Galena. I'm actually genuinely shocked the bypass hasn't been built yet, between the two capital bills passed in the last 12 years.
The bypass was 20 million a mile and Galena wanted through town improvements.
336 is basically done.
29 was part of FHWA CYA for giving IllInois the money for 180 to the steel plant.
It was not inn the original supplemental freeway system. There was a wavy 39 designed to get to the steel plant and followed the route of the Kerner curve. It was all about a deal with a steel plant.
The Galena story was one by Chuck Sweeny. But after he died so did any media on 20 and so probably 20.
Quote from: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 01:40:03 PM
1. What's the point of IL-29? I would've thought any freeway/expressway through this area would have been put to bed when I-39 was built. After all, I-180 barely sees any traffic.
2. IL-336 is not needed, not even and especially the already built section from Quincy to Macomb. Why haven't they ended this yet?
3. The engineering has only been done for the Galena bypass portion of US 20 between Freeport and Galena. I'm actually genuinely shocked the bypass hasn't been built yet, between the two capital bills passed in the last 12 years.
IDOT said that I-180 was built to satisfy a political issue with a now shuttered steel works north of Hennepin. At one time there was an old narrow span supporting the former IL-26 that was demolished after 1-180 was built. It doesn't pass any current measure of justification for a modern interstate highway today. In fact I-180 ends at an exit called "Steel Drive" which itself is now closed to keep people off the property. People would say, "why did they build a steel plant right there?". 2 major drivers were access to high quality power (Hennepin Power Plant) nearby and access to water (Illinois River) and rail capacity (NYC/Conrail now NS) to the east coast.
After I-180 was built many Peoria interests wanted it brought down all the way using IL-29. After Gov. Thompson got several reps to rally around the Mitsubishi (now Rivian) plant in Normal, they agreed at the time to drop any political blockade of US-51/I-39 and in effect stopped any purpose of I-180 extensions to Peoria. Periodically Chillicothe, Illinois politicos bring up the issue of extending IL-29 as a freeway north of town using a former sand pit/quarry for ROW and rejoin the current IL-29 around Henry Creek. Studies have been done, but it hasn't been prioritized. You will never hear anything about I-180 from the Peoria contingent anymore.
As for IL-336, the stub west of Peoria needs to have a more organized termination with a east west highway as today it ends at essentially a country road. In the current design, it was supposed to cross over IL-116 near Hanna City. I would say finish that part, so that traffic flows naturally into the current stub in I-474 and then leave it alone for the next 30 years until the traffic counts catch up. Most people don't know it, but IDOT owns a large degree of land east of the I-474 exit for the same stub. I never saw any plans to extend it further east, but as it stands it would cut through the north part of Rocky Glen Park. I assume it was supposed to divert eventual traffic off of IL-8 & Farmington Road somewhere near Swords Road. There are 2 subdivisions on each side with dead end streets with a fence that says property of IDOT.
A topic for another thread no doubt, I-474 has no other exits for east west traffic. You either go to the airport south, or you go up to I-74. One of the beefs of Farmington when they lost their last railroad (UP/CNW/MStL) was that they lost their access to global markets. So the rail was pulled but the ROW was railbanked. the IL-336 design report showed that they had to maintain a railroad overpass for the new highway in the event the rails were put back down.
One could write a book on all of the backstory to all of these highways Illinois has talked about over the years.
Quote from: edwaleni on January 16, 2021, 10:19:43 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 01:40:03 PM
1. What's the point of IL-29? I would've thought any freeway/expressway through this area would have been put to bed when I-39 was built. After all, I-180 barely sees any traffic.
2. IL-336 is not needed, not even and especially the already built section from Quincy to Macomb. Why haven't they ended this yet?
3. The engineering has only been done for the Galena bypass portion of US 20 between Freeport and Galena. I'm actually genuinely shocked the bypass hasn't been built yet, between the two capital bills passed in the last 12 years.
IDOT said that I-180 was built to satisfy a political issue with a now shuttered steel works north of Hennepin. At one time there was an old narrow span supporting the former IL-26 that was demolished after 1-180 was built. It doesn't pass any current measure of justification for a modern interstate highway today. In fact I-180 ends at an exit called "Steel Drive" which itself is now closed to keep people off the property. People would say, "why did they build a steel plant right there?". 2 major drivers were access to high quality power (Hennepin Power Plant) nearby and access to water (Illinois River) and rail capacity (NYC/Conrail now NS) to the east coast.
After I-180 was built many Peoria interests wanted it brought down all the way using IL-29. After Gov. Thompson got several reps to rally around the Mitsubishi (now Rivian) plant in Normal, they agreed at the time to drop any political blockade of US-51/I-39 and in effect stopped any purpose of I-180 extensions to Peoria. Periodically Chillicothe, Illinois politicos bring up the issue of extending IL-29 as a freeway north of town using a former sand pit/quarry for ROW and rejoin the current IL-29 around Henry Creek. Studies have been done, but it hasn't been prioritized. You will never hear anything about I-180 from the Peoria contingent anymore.
As for IL-336, the stub west of Peoria needs to have a more organized termination with a east west highway as today it ends at essentially a country road. In the current design, it was supposed to cross over IL-116 near Hanna City. I would say finish that part, so that traffic flows naturally into the current stub in I-474 and then leave it alone for the next 30 years until the traffic counts catch up. Most people don't know it, but IDOT owns a large degree of land east of the I-474 exit for the same stub. I never saw any plans to extend it further east, but as it stands it would cut through the north part of Rocky Glen Park. I assume it was supposed to divert eventual traffic off of IL-8 & Farmington Road somewhere near Swords Road. There are 2 subdivisions on each side with dead end streets with a fence that says property of IDOT.
A topic for another thread no doubt, I-474 has no other exits for east west traffic. You either go to the airport south, or you go up to I-74. One of the beefs of Farmington when they lost their last railroad (UP/CNW/MStL) was that they lost their access to global markets. So the rail was pulled but the ROW was railbanked. the IL-336 design report showed that they had to maintain a railroad overpass for the new highway in the event the rails were put back down.
One could write a book on all of the backstory to all of these highways Illinois has talked about over the years.
Amen to your last point. There is a lot of fascinating history of the Illinois Interstate/freeway system.
I knew about why I-180 was put in place, I just don't get why there is still a push to four lane IL-29. I would've thought I-39 would have permanently put that to bed. And IL-336 was never needed, It's so much better to take I-155 > I-55 to get to I-72 rather than IL-336 > I-172 > I-72.
Quote from: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 10:57:26 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on January 16, 2021, 10:19:43 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 16, 2021, 01:40:03 PM
1. What's the point of IL-29? I would've thought any freeway/expressway through this area would have been put to bed when I-39 was built. After all, I-180 barely sees any traffic.
2. IL-336 is not needed, not even and especially the already built section from Quincy to Macomb. Why haven't they ended this yet?
3. The engineering has only been done for the Galena bypass portion of US 20 between Freeport and Galena. I'm actually genuinely shocked the bypass hasn't been built yet, between the two capital bills passed in the last 12 years.
IDOT said that I-180 was built to satisfy a political issue with a now shuttered steel works north of Hennepin. At one time there was an old narrow span supporting the former IL-26 that was demolished after 1-180 was built. It doesn't pass any current measure of justification for a modern interstate highway today. In fact I-180 ends at an exit called "Steel Drive" which itself is now closed to keep people off the property. People would say, "why did they build a steel plant right there?". 2 major drivers were access to high quality power (Hennepin Power Plant) nearby and access to water (Illinois River) and rail capacity (NYC/Conrail now NS) to the east coast.
After I-180 was built many Peoria interests wanted it brought down all the way using IL-29. After Gov. Thompson got several reps to rally around the Mitsubishi (now Rivian) plant in Normal, they agreed at the time to drop any political blockade of US-51/I-39 and in effect stopped any purpose of I-180 extensions to Peoria. Periodically Chillicothe, Illinois politicos bring up the issue of extending IL-29 as a freeway north of town using a former sand pit/quarry for ROW and rejoin the current IL-29 around Henry Creek. Studies have been done, but it hasn't been prioritized. You will never hear anything about I-180 from the Peoria contingent anymore.
As for IL-336, the stub west of Peoria needs to have a more organized termination with a east west highway as today it ends at essentially a country road. In the current design, it was supposed to cross over IL-116 near Hanna City. I would say finish that part, so that traffic flows naturally into the current stub in I-474 and then leave it alone for the next 30 years until the traffic counts catch up. Most people don't know it, but IDOT owns a large degree of land east of the I-474 exit for the same stub. I never saw any plans to extend it further east, but as it stands it would cut through the north part of Rocky Glen Park. I assume it was supposed to divert eventual traffic off of IL-8 & Farmington Road somewhere near Swords Road. There are 2 subdivisions on each side with dead end streets with a fence that says property of IDOT.
A topic for another thread no doubt, I-474 has no other exits for east west traffic. You either go to the airport south, or you go up to I-74. One of the beefs of Farmington when they lost their last railroad (UP/CNW/MStL) was that they lost their access to global markets. So the rail was pulled but the ROW was railbanked. the IL-336 design report showed that they had to maintain a railroad overpass for the new highway in the event the rails were put back down.
One could write a book on all of the backstory to all of these highways Illinois has talked about over the years.
Amen to your last point. There is a lot of fascinating history of the Illinois Interstate/freeway system.
I knew about why I-180 was put in place, I just don't get why there is still a push to four lane IL-29. I would've thought I-39 would have permanently put that to bed. And IL-336 was never needed, It's so much better to take I-155 > I-55 to get to I-72 rather than IL-336 > I-172 > I-72.
Peoria doesn't care anymore.
It's Chillicothe that cares. They are river locked, To reach I-39 (or anything east of the river) they have to either drive south (20 miles) to the US-150 War Memorial Bridge in Peoria or all the way up to Lacon (11 miles) or Henry (16 miles) to use bridges built in 1939 and 1934 respectively. By that point they might as well drive all the way up to I-80 depending where they are headed. What they should be crowing for is a basic 2 lane span over the Illinois River. Something like what IDOT is building at Meredosia. Connect it with IL-89 at Washburn and be done with it. Varna, Washburn, Minonk, Toluca, Magnolia, Low Point, Cazenovia....that is old strip mine territory now all agricultural. Toluca is essentially Little Italy. All the descendants of the strip mine workers stayed and run the town the same way.
You was to read
Questionable Basis for Approving Certain Auxiliary Route Segments of the Interstate Highway System. GAO July 31 1970.
Side note the first Supplemental Freeway route of 39 followed the proposed 55 re route.
It was out in Dec of 65. It also has a freeway along 24 not 29.
Instead the Washington bypass was built.
As far as the Peoria Chicago freeway. 6 of 11 corridors including 29 were longer than 74 55
The shortest was a 24 116 route that saved 8.7 miles The other 4 saved less.
Also I think 29 goes through a lot of floodplain and that probably would raise costs out of control. See recent discussion of Interstate 57 approved in Mid South.
We saw in in Illinois with 34.
Quote from: 3467 on January 17, 2021, 01:56:24 PM
What they should be crowing for is a basic 2 lane span over the Illinois River. Something like what IDOT is building at Meredosia.
The Peoria East Bypass would provide that northern crossing. There are still obstacles to funding, designing and constructing it, but it is still somewhat more an active pursuit than IL 29 at this time. After years of study, a Draft EIS has not been issued yet, but there has been some progress as stated at the IDOT project website.
http://www.easternbypass.com/
Quote from: Rick Powell on January 17, 2021, 04:03:50 PM
Quote from: 3467 on January 17, 2021, 01:56:24 PM
What they should be crowing for is a basic 2 lane span over the Illinois River. Something like what IDOT is building at Meredosia.
The Peoria East Bypass would provide that northern crossing. There are still obstacles to funding, designing and constructing it, but it is still somewhat more an active pursuit than IL 29 at this time. After years of study, a Draft EIS has not been issued yet, but there has been some progress as stated at the IDOT project website.
http://www.easternbypass.com/
Thanks for sharing this. I thought this never got off the ground. Kind of like the Eastern St Louis beltway (IL-4) when the entire corridor got dumped.
If not by road, then by rail?
Per Trains:
Consulting firm chosen for Chicago-Dubuque rail feasibility study:
Chicago-based engineering firm Quandel Consultants has been selected to conduct a feasibility study for Chicago-Dubuque, Iowa, rail passenger service. The Dubuque Telegraph Herald reports the firm is negotiating a contract with the Dubuque Metropolitan Area Transportation Study committee for the 13-month project to evaluate routes, ridership, stations, infrastructure, service speeds and frequencies, costs, and revenue potential for the proposed service. Resumption of service to Dubuque, which ended in 1981, is dependent on the current efforts to revive Chicago-Rockford service [see "Digest: Effort to restart Chicago-Rockford passenger service takes step forward," Trains News Wire, Sept. 25, 2020].
Story also in Dubuque newspapers:
https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_f238fe44-9fae-57f0-8220-77fda7fb8c00.html (https://www.telegraphherald.com/news/tri-state/article_f238fe44-9fae-57f0-8220-77fda7fb8c00.html)
Not many people are aware that perennially broke Illinois is funding to start a Amtrak/Metra style service from Chicago to Rockford.
If Wisconsin isn't broke (I don't know if it is or not), Wisconsin can pay fully for Portage (existing Amtrak)-Madison-Janesville-Beloit-Harvard (end of current commuter rail) with a spur to Rockford. It will help both states, so it might be worthwhile even if Wisconsin pays for it all. Of course, this goes nowhere near Dubuque.
Quote from: 1 on January 18, 2021, 12:19:53 PM
If Wisconsin isn't broke (I don't know if it is or not), Wisconsin can pay fully for Portage (existing Amtrak)-Madison-Janesville-Beloit-Harvard (end of current commuter rail) with a spur to Rockford. It will help both states, so it might be worthwhile even if Wisconsin pays for it all. Of course, this goes nowhere near Dubuque.
Wasn't there some kind of demonstration Amtrak service from Janesville-Rockford-Chicago in the 90's? Like they tested it out to see if it was popular enough to get implement? (Which it was not, as evidenced by the lack of such service today.)
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 21, 2021, 04:22:31 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 18, 2021, 12:19:53 PM
If Wisconsin isn't broke (I don't know if it is or not), Wisconsin can pay fully for Portage (existing Amtrak)-Madison-Janesville-Beloit-Harvard (end of current commuter rail) with a spur to Rockford. It will help both states, so it might be worthwhile even if Wisconsin pays for it all. Of course, this goes nowhere near Dubuque.
Wasn't there some kind of demonstration Amtrak service from Janesville-Rockford-Chicago in the 90's? Like they tested it out to see if it was popular enough to get implement? (Which it was not, as evidenced by the lack of such service today.)
Lake Country Limited
04-APR-2000 – 23-SEP-2001
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trainweb.org%2Fusarail%2Fjanesjpeg.jpg&hash=00101fdd121c034d72bd1cac682e167b2b0570de)
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 04:29:57 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.trainweb.org%2Fusarail%2Fjanesjpeg.jpg&hash=00101fdd121c034d72bd1cac682e167b2b0570de)
Apparently they aren't entirely clear which state Janesville is in? (Look at the disclaimer on the bottom.)
^ Where was the stop in Lake Geneva? Closest rail lines I see today are in Walworth or New Munster.
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 21, 2021, 10:10:28 PM
^ Where was the stop in Lake Geneva? Closest rail lines I see today are in Walworth or New Munster.
here (https://goo.gl/maps/CJhoHsnk5Sojwz2i6)
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 21, 2021, 10:10:28 PM
^ Where was the stop in Lake Geneva? Closest rail lines I see today are in Walworth or New Munster.
here (https://goo.gl/maps/CJhoHsnk5Sojwz2i6)
CNW actually had 2 stations for Lake Geneva originally. In the town proper on the east end and then another after going around Lake Como where it ended at the west reach of the actual Lake Geneva. It was cut back to Ringwood.
As for Dubuque, they will calculate what a fare will be (probably around $100 each way to Chicago) and it will stop the analysis in its tracks. No knock on Dubuque, but no one will spend $200 per person for a round trip when the gas alone will only cost $40 round trip for a family of 4.
If they get enough daily traffic in and out of Rockford, perhaps it can subsidize the Dubuque/Galena service on weekends when most people would consider the trip.
But for me the cost of the subsidy over 25 years would get pretty darn close, if not exceed, the cost of simply building the darn highway. And trucks can't use Amtrak.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on January 21, 2021, 04:22:31 PM
Wasn't there some kind of demonstration Amtrak service from Janesville-Rockford-Chicago in the 90's? Like they tested it out to see if it was popular enough to get implement? (Which it was not, as evidenced by the lack of such service today.)
Judging by the business that Van Galder bus lines got (pre-COVID) on its Madison -> Chicago service (multiple trips per day stopping in Janesville, Beloit, and Rockford en-route to O'Hare and downtown Chicago), there's a solid argument that the ridership could be there IF the folks implementing it had their act together.
Of course, both Illinois and Wisconsin dumped multiple billions of dollars into I-90 between Madison and Chicago in the last 15 years, so the highway congestion that might have made the bus trip unreliable before is less of a problem now.
Since I'm off on this side-tangent, note that there's a Metra line that goes to Harvard, IL. That same rail line reaches Janesville, and extends into downtown Madison.
Extending the Metra line to Janesville would be very straightforward - the rail line is there and shouldn't take much (if any) effort to accommodate passenger rail. From Janesville, it can head into Madison via Evansville and Oregon (which would require the track to be rebuilt or have heavy maintenance work performed), or through Milton, Edgerton, and Stoughton (which would run more slowly due to sharp curves and such).
The reasons passenger rail to Madison hasn't happened yet are more political than because there's not a viable option to make it happen.
But the Metra Northwest line to Harvard doesn't go to O'Hare - it goes downtown. So the Van Galder ridership numbers, versus what a Metra extension would carry, isn't really a great comparison because they are serving customers with different goals in mind.
Metra is commuter rail. By the time it gets to Harvard, it is pretty sparse. Van Galder is for people flying out of Chicago who don't want to park there.
Metra can barely keep up with what it has. It's rolling stock is incredibly dated and expansions that are more needed than this (i.e, Plano, Dekalb, etc) are years off from happening, if ever. Plus, the whole board is corrupt.
How many times do we have to go through this charade before people realize passenger rail service is not the way to go?
Quote from: I-39 on January 23, 2021, 11:47:49 AM
Metra can barely keep up with what it has. It's rolling stock is incredibly dated and expansions that are more needed than this (i.e, Plano, Dekalb, etc) are years off from happening, if ever. Plus, the whole board is corrupt.
How many times do we have to go through this charade before people realize passenger rail service is not the way to go?
Rail isn't bad as a commuter mode of transportation. And people from Janesville aren't commuting downtown.
Quote from: I-39 on January 23, 2021, 11:47:49 AM
Metra can barely keep up with what it has. It's rolling stock is incredibly dated and expansions that are more needed than this (i.e, Plano, Dekalb, etc) are years off from happening, if ever. Plus, the whole board is corrupt.
How many times do we have to go through this charade before people realize passenger rail service is not the way to go?
Passenger rail can be quite good. I've traveled in trains over much of Western Europe. Unfortunately, there are several reasons it only works in a few locations in the US from lack of political will to corrupt boards.
Quote from: I-39 on January 23, 2021, 11:47:49 AM
How many times do we have to go through this charade before people realize passenger rail service is not the way to go?
I'll be starting rail commuting once the office reopens as a Metra station is right behind my new residence.
The office is reopening?
I think that's going to be the big question on transportation planning .
How many go back and how often.
About half the remaining labor force can remote work.
There is a website that tracks current office vacancy. It's still like 70 percent. Higher in Chicago.
Quote from: I-39 on January 23, 2021, 11:47:49 AM
Metra can barely keep up with what it has. It's rolling stock is incredibly dated and expansions that are more needed than this (i.e, Plano, Dekalb, etc) are years off from happening, if ever. Plus, the whole board is corrupt.
How many times do we have to go through this charade before people realize passenger rail service is not the way to go?
What good is a train to Galena when YOU DON'T HAVE USE OF YOUR CAR WHEN YOU GET THERE AND CAN'T REALLY DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN WALK AROUND A SMALL AREA NEAR THE STATION!!! If I lived in the Chicago Suburbs and wanted to spend Saturday Afternoon in the Driftless Area Hills around Galena and Dubuque why on earth would I want to spend two hours going downtown, waiting for a train, then probably taking longer to get out there than if I just got in the car and drove? What, because of a two lane section between Freeport and Galena? Wow, I'll really have a fun time not being able to get in my car and drive around to the various attractions once I get there or drive to any restaurants for a nice lunch? Not having a car absolutely sucks, I even only consider flying if it is the west coast with a 6 day drive round trip. I absolutely hate going to a relative's house and then being stranded without my car. Nope, there is no "demand" for "high speed rail" between Chicago and Saint Louis, etc. like they pitch using the lying statistics from air travel that completely ignores the fact those people hoping on planes from Saint Louis to Chicago are transferring to other flights at O'hare to places like Hawaii and London. Nobody wants to start their big Hawaiian Vacation by taking Amtrack to Chicago, then struggling on the subway to O'hare when they can catch a jet at Lambert straight to the terminal already behind all the security checks. These are the same hipster crackpots who'd also have us commuting around in 10 degree snowstorms on bicycles. They just hate cars, thats all.
Quote from: 3467 on January 24, 2021, 12:24:43 PM
The office is reopening?
I think that's going to be the big question on transportation planning .
How many go back and how often.
About half the remaining labor force can remote work.
There is a website that tracks current office vacancy. It's still like 70 percent. Higher in Chicago.
That will be the big question, working remote took massive leaps due to Covid last year. Least for me I'll def need to be going into the office least 3 of the 5 days to get certain things done once a somewhat "all clear" is given to go back, plus I started a day before the IL shutdown so I've yet to actually see the full office or the amenities it has.
But even as I think about it, I've been able to do my job for the most part at home. Gonna be interesting to see how that develops over the course of the year.
Quote from: skluth on January 23, 2021, 04:49:41 PMPassenger rail can be quite good. I've traveled in trains over much of Western Europe. Unfortunately, there are several reasons it only works in a few locations in the US from lack of political will to corrupt boards.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on January 24, 2021, 01:59:09 PMWhat good is a train to Galena when YOU DON'T HAVE USE OF YOUR CAR WHEN YOU GET THERE AND CAN'T REALLY DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN WALK AROUND A SMALL AREA NEAR THE STATION!!! If I lived in the Chicago Suburbs and wanted to spend Saturday Afternoon in the Driftless Area Hills around Galena and Dubuque why on earth would I want to spend two hours going downtown, waiting for a train, then probably taking longer to get out there than if I just got in the car and drove? What, because of a two lane section between Freeport and Galena? Wow, I'll really have a fun time not being able to get in my car and drive around to the various attractions once I get there or drive to any restaurants for a nice lunch? Not having a car absolutely sucks, I even only consider flying if it is the west coast with a 6 day drive round trip. I absolutely hate going to a relative's house and then being stranded without my car. Nope, there is no "demand" for "high speed rail" between Chicago and Saint Louis, etc. like they pitch using the lying statistics from air travel that completely ignores the fact those people hoping on planes from Saint Louis to Chicago are transferring to other flights at O'hare to places like Hawaii and London. Nobody wants to start their big Hawaiian Vacation by taking Amtrack to Chicago, then struggling on the subway to O'hare when they can catch a jet at Lambert straight to the terminal already behind all the security checks. These are the same hipster crackpots who'd also have us commuting around in 10 degree snowstorms on bicycles. They just hate cars, thats all.
I'm not opposed to trains, they are great in commuter environments (i.e, Metra) but not for long distance travel. What I was referring to above is these useless long distance (Amtrak) studies that go nowhere, for the reasons captkirk_4 stated. This train idea to Dubuque is incredibly stupid and it's just time to freaking build a four lane expressway along US 20 between Freeport and Galena already. It's a complete joke it hasn't happened.
Yes ET21. It seems to have saved a lot of companies money.
Also it looks like downtown is just empty.
That creepy abandoned feel might hit big centers and the remaining offices may be more scattered. We really need a thread. Regional might be good because it may vary a lot.
Quote from: I-39 on January 24, 2021, 02:59:35 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 23, 2021, 04:49:41 PMPassenger rail can be quite good. I've traveled in trains over much of Western Europe. Unfortunately, there are several reasons it only works in a few locations in the US from lack of political will to corrupt boards.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on January 24, 2021, 01:59:09 PMWhat good is a train to Galena when YOU DON'T HAVE USE OF YOUR CAR WHEN YOU GET THERE AND CAN'T REALLY DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN WALK AROUND A SMALL AREA NEAR THE STATION!!! If I lived in the Chicago Suburbs and wanted to spend Saturday Afternoon in the Driftless Area Hills around Galena and Dubuque why on earth would I want to spend two hours going downtown, waiting for a train, then probably taking longer to get out there than if I just got in the car and drove? What, because of a two lane section between Freeport and Galena? Wow, I'll really have a fun time not being able to get in my car and drive around to the various attractions once I get there or drive to any restaurants for a nice lunch? Not having a car absolutely sucks, I even only consider flying if it is the west coast with a 6 day drive round trip. I absolutely hate going to a relative's house and then being stranded without my car. Nope, there is no "demand" for "high speed rail" between Chicago and Saint Louis, etc. like they pitch using the lying statistics from air travel that completely ignores the fact those people hoping on planes from Saint Louis to Chicago are transferring to other flights at O'hare to places like Hawaii and London. Nobody wants to start their big Hawaiian Vacation by taking Amtrack to Chicago, then struggling on the subway to O'hare when they can catch a jet at Lambert straight to the terminal already behind all the security checks. These are the same hipster crackpots who'd also have us commuting around in 10 degree snowstorms on bicycles. They just hate cars, thats all.
I'm not opposed to trains, they are great in commuter environments (i.e, Metra) but not for long distance travel. What I was referring to above is these useless long distance (Amtrak) studies that go nowhere, for the reasons captkirk_4 stated. This train idea to Dubuque is incredibly stupid and it's just time to freaking build a four lane expressway along US 20 between Freeport and Galena already. It's a complete joke it hasn't happened.
I actually watched a guys sleeper Amtrack trip from Chicago to Los Angeles on Youtube and thought it looked fun, as an adventure in itself. But it is more expensive than air travel, and I wouldn't really enjoy it until the covid paranoia is gone and I can relax with a good meal in the restaurant car, go to the view car, etc. However if I really needed to get to LA I'd take the airlines. My friend flies between LA and Detroit on Spirit and it's under 200 bucks. Amtrack is 900 one way in a "roomette" the smaller sleeper option, the full bedroom is 1900.
I've only had an Amtrak compartment on two occasions.
The first occasion is when I traveled with my one- or two-year-old daughter from Chicago to Saint Louis, along with her two godparents. Coach was sold out on the way down, so I had to book a couple of two-person compartments. When we boarded the train, the conductor told us one of the compartments was under renovation, and so he put my daughter and me up in a conductor's cabin instead. Not wanting to be separated from my friends for the trip, the I had all four of us in the single two-person compartment and left the conductor's cabin vacant. Cramped, but not bad for a bunch of college-aged people.
The second occasion was when my dad and I went from Chicago to Charlottesville (VA) and shared a sleeper on the way out there. We traveled coach on the way back. It was nice to have beds on the way out, but I kept waking up at every station stop and sometimes in between.
Coach is roomy enough on long-distance Amtrak trains that it's fairly easy to sleep even in coach–even if you can't stretch out all the way. When my daughter was really little, though, the floor in between coach seats on the California Zephyr actually ended up being her bed more often than not.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on January 25, 2021, 06:23:05 PM
Quote from: I-39 on January 24, 2021, 02:59:35 PM
Quote from: skluth on January 23, 2021, 04:49:41 PMPassenger rail can be quite good. I've traveled in trains over much of Western Europe. Unfortunately, there are several reasons it only works in a few locations in the US from lack of political will to corrupt boards.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on January 24, 2021, 01:59:09 PMWhat good is a train to Galena when YOU DON'T HAVE USE OF YOUR CAR WHEN YOU GET THERE AND CAN'T REALLY DO ANYTHING OTHER THAN WALK AROUND A SMALL AREA NEAR THE STATION!!! If I lived in the Chicago Suburbs and wanted to spend Saturday Afternoon in the Driftless Area Hills around Galena and Dubuque why on earth would I want to spend two hours going downtown, waiting for a train, then probably taking longer to get out there than if I just got in the car and drove? What, because of a two lane section between Freeport and Galena? Wow, I'll really have a fun time not being able to get in my car and drive around to the various attractions once I get there or drive to any restaurants for a nice lunch? Not having a car absolutely sucks, I even only consider flying if it is the west coast with a 6 day drive round trip. I absolutely hate going to a relative's house and then being stranded without my car. Nope, there is no "demand" for "high speed rail" between Chicago and Saint Louis, etc. like they pitch using the lying statistics from air travel that completely ignores the fact those people hoping on planes from Saint Louis to Chicago are transferring to other flights at O'hare to places like Hawaii and London. Nobody wants to start their big Hawaiian Vacation by taking Amtrack to Chicago, then struggling on the subway to O'hare when they can catch a jet at Lambert straight to the terminal already behind all the security checks. These are the same hipster crackpots who'd also have us commuting around in 10 degree snowstorms on bicycles. They just hate cars, thats all.
I'm not opposed to trains, they are great in commuter environments (i.e, Metra) but not for long distance travel. What I was referring to above is these useless long distance (Amtrak) studies that go nowhere, for the reasons captkirk_4 stated. This train idea to Dubuque is incredibly stupid and it's just time to freaking build a four lane expressway along US 20 between Freeport and Galena already. It's a complete joke it hasn't happened.
I actually watched a guys sleeper Amtrack trip from Chicago to Los Angeles on Youtube and thought it looked fun, as an adventure in itself. But it is more expensive than air travel, and I wouldn't really enjoy it until the covid paranoia is gone and I can relax with a good meal in the restaurant car, go to the view car, etc. However if I really needed to get to LA I'd take the airlines. My friend flies between LA and Detroit on Spirit and it's under 200 bucks. Amtrack is 900 one way in a "roomette" the smaller sleeper option, the full bedroom is 1900.
Commuter rail works with the right conditions. Longer train travel is best for places where you otherwise take short plane hops. My most recent experience in Europe was Fall 2019. The first was just a mundane train trip through Portugal, but the second was on a high-speed rail from Madrid to Malaga. It's a 5 hour drive, but it's only three hours by train. There were 3-4 intermediate stops, but much more comfy and relaxed than a 1.5 hour flight plus two hour pre-arrival. The train was about 80% full. I showed up 30 minutes early, so it was about the same time as flying with less fear of delays.
I noticed several business types in coach. (I traveled first class because it was maybe €20 more (And about 20% more than coach. It was my first high-speed train so I wanted to really enjoy it. But I'd have still been far more comfy there than on a plane.) I could see similar trips being used for business in many US corridors. DC-NY-BOS is the most obvious as Acela has already demonstrated. SF-LA-SD-PHX, Portland-Vancouver BC, Milwaukee-Pitt, Florida, and Texas are all places which would benefit. Acela is also popular for leisure. I have friends that take it for trips between DC and NY (at least pre-Covid). I'd happily take a train from the Coachella Valley to LA for a day or weekend trip if I didn't have to worry about waiting two days if I missed mine; there were about 10 daily between Madrid and Malaga. High-speed rail could easily supplant short hop flights in a lot places and significantly reduce jet CO2 emissions (4% of CO2 pollution yearly), especially if linked to major airports like LAX and ORD. I don't see any rail replacing flying longer distances like between any of NY-CHI-ATL-TX-CAL.
None of these apply to Galena. Madison-Rockford-Chicago by train makes sense, even at standard speeds (80 mph or so). I know there are several daily trips between Milwaukee and Chicago. I took the train on weekends to Chicago when I lived in St Louis and was stationed for school at Chanute in Rantoul. (I always stayed downtown and the trains were mostly full.) But again, those corridors make sense. There's not enough in downtown Galena for most US travelers. It's not Vegas or Orlando, or a place between destinations like Palm Springs between LA and Phoenix. I agree a train to Galena is a waste of money and an expressway to Galena (and on to Dubuque) makes far more sense.
Quote from: kphoger on January 25, 2021, 07:10:20 PM
Coach is roomy enough on long-distance Amtrak trains that it's fairly easy to sleep even in coach–even if you can't stretch out all the way. When my daughter was really little, though, the floor in between coach seats on the California Zephyr actually ended up being her bed more often than not.
We had the same experience on the SW Chief from Newton, KS to Los Angeles. My wife and I slept in our coach seats and our girls played and slept on the floor more than in their seats.
IDOT has posted a new Featured Project. Illinois 97 in Sangamon county. While I may go into its details in Southern Illinois Notes it is relevant to US 20.
It was first started as an EA and got a FONSI. That was 1997. But they had to review and update in 2017. They did keep corridor protection.
Like Rick Powell has said this would have to be done for US 20. I think the previous freeway focus and Purpose and need present a much bigger problem for this project.
Quote from: 3467 on February 14, 2021, 01:14:44 PM
IDOT has posted a new Featured Project. Illinois 97 in Sangamon county. While I may go into its details in Southern Illinois Notes it is relevant to US 20.
It was first started as an EA and got a FONSI. That was 1997. But they had to review and update in 2017. They did keep corridor protection.
Like Rick Powell has said this would have to be done for US 20. I think the previous freeway focus and Purpose and need present a much bigger problem for this project.
IL-97 in Sangamon County exists to get people up to Lincoln's New Salem and back. I don't see any parallels with US-20 at all.
It has to do with the amount of Environmental Review needed. This one Illinois 97 is nothing and still needed 4 years of additional work. What would reviving US 20 take?
Quote from: 3467 on February 15, 2021, 04:48:03 PM
It has to do with the amount of Environmental Review needed. This one Illinois 97 is nothing and still needed 4 years of additional work. What would reviving US 20 take?
It's probably best just to start over at this point. Even if they really wanted to, the project as originally envisioned is simply not possible anymore with the limited funds.
I suggest revamping the project as a new four lane expressway (free flowing, i.e, no stoplights) utilizing the existing alignment where possible (i.e, east of Stockton). I think that could be done somewhat cheaper.
Yes that was my point 39. I went back and read the ROD. Things have changed
Wasn't IDOT looking into drilling a tunnel through one of those ridges as an option for freewayizing US 20 in the Galena, IL area a few decades ago?
Mike
I heard that too.. Also considering the expressways being built are running from 10 to 15 million a mile I can't even imagine a freeway. They estimated Galena Bypass at 20 million a mile in 2006.
With an expressway option the current route through Galena could be kept. I know a third lane was planned in Galena but the town even vetoed that.
Quote from: mgk920 on February 15, 2021, 05:30:14 PM
Wasn't IDOT looking into drilling a tunnel through one of those ridges as an option for freewayizing US 20 in the Galena, IL area a few decades ago?
Mike
The Galena Bypass is all bridges. No tunnels required.
As for the Glacier Shadow Pass highway, 2 tunnels were part of the alternates proposed as well as a 1500 foot span over Long Hollow.
Long Hollow is west of Elizabeth and is a long drawn valley formed from Long Hollow Creek. If you look at Google Maps, US 20 has a lookout called "Long Hollow Scenic Overlook".
The alternative that uses Irish Hollow west of Elizabeth will require tunnels. This is not surprising because the old abandoned Winston Tunnel for the Chicago & Great Western railroad is not far off Irish Hollow.
The road would work its way north up the hollow, but need a tunnel to join up with the Galena Bypass east of Horseshoe Mound. The 2 tunnels would be south of Smallpox Creek near Irish Hollow Road.
Expensive and goes through a scenic area. I would guess a freeway in this area would garner a lot of push back.
It got a lot of pushback. The freeway watch committed former to stop it. . IDOT Dist kept refusing to consider an expressway despite an earlier feas. Study that recommended it.
Quote from: 3467 on February 15, 2021, 08:33:33 PM
With an expressway option the current route through Galena could be kept. I know a third lane was planned in Galena but the town even vetoed that.
No, there would still need to be a bypass of some sort to achieve a four lane divided expressway.
To be clear, there would still have to be some portions of a hypothetical US 20 expressway on a new alignment, but if possible, the existing alignment should be used.
Here is a terrain view of the challenge of US-20.
The existing ROW used a typical approach of its era. A "get high" and stay high until you don't need to.
From the bottom right, it works its way out of Long Hollow and rides the top of the ridge between Long Hollow and Irish Hollow.
IDOT then made a cut at the summit (center of the pix) and rode Glen Hollow down to cross Smallpox Creek and then worked back up to Horseshoe Mound (top left corner)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50950361947_46d81360a9_b.jpg)
The Irish Hollow Route would come up at the bottom center of the pix and would tunnel at the summit between South Irish Hollow and North Irish Hollow.
In the bottom left you can see Winston Tunnel, the abandoned C&GW rail tunnel. They used the Irish Hollow route in 1906 to reach the Mississippi Valley asap.
The climb out of Long Hollow to reach 850' at the summit is a long one. Relatively speaking 850' is not a huge summit, but comparatively in Illinois, it is a long 4-5% grade.
Yes . Once again what would a new alignment cost now?
Several expressways use through town routes. 67 through Good Hope.
Avenue of Saints Hannibal and Waterloo. I could go on.
I think this is dead. Best hope more passing lanes.
Is that abandoned rail tunnel still intact?
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 01:51:40 PM
Is that abandoned rail tunnel still intact?
Yes.
But the county has put up metal bars on each end due to a large amount of water seepage inside. They are worried about a collapse.
Quote from: 3467 on February 16, 2021, 12:12:17 PM
Yes . Once again what would a new alignment cost now?
Several expressways use through town routes. 67 through Good Hope.
Avenue of Saints Hannibal and Waterloo. I could go on.
I think this is dead. Best hope more passing lanes.
67 is not a four lane expressway through Good Hope.
A new alignment on the Elizabeth to Galena/IL-84 section wouldn't be as much if it were done as an at grade expressway. But I would go from east to west in building it (i.e, Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and Elizabeth to Galena/IL-84). The Freeport to Stockton section is fairly low hanging fruit considering the terrain.
Quote from: I-39 on February 16, 2021, 06:47:43 PM
Quote from: 3467 on February 16, 2021, 12:12:17 PM
Yes . Once again what would a new alignment cost now?
Several expressways use through town routes. 67 through Good Hope.
Avenue of Saints Hannibal and Waterloo. I could go on.
I think this is dead. Best hope more passing lanes.
67 is not a four lane expressway through Good Hope.
A new alignment on the Elizabeth to Galena/IL-84 section wouldn't be as much if it were done as an at grade expressway. But I would go from east to west in building it (i.e, Freeport to Stockton, Stockton to Elizabeth and Elizabeth to Galena/IL-84). The Freeport to Stockton section is fairly low hanging fruit considering the terrain.
I agree with you. Instead of trying to swallow the entire nut, add by sections west of Freeport as far as Elizabeth. Build east by finishing the Galena Bypass to Horseshoe Mound. All the variations of the alternatives focus on Elizabeth to Horseshoe Mound. Decide that later.
No it's 3 lanes but the rest is 4 . Expressways have through town sections .
Galena Bypass would be incredibly expensive . Stockton Freeport probably the current 10 to 15.
I could make a case for doing that and extending the existing passing lanes to Galena.
We had same thought at same time.
It's a little creative for IDOT at present even though it's what the did from Rockford to Freeport in the sixties.
What am I saying they are basically doing the same thing on 34.
They are making it 3 lane West of Stockton so the could add 15 miles of expressway to Freeport. Then they could add I think about 5 miles of passing lanes.
Quote from: edwaleni on February 16, 2021, 03:48:19 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 16, 2021, 01:51:40 PM
Is that abandoned rail tunnel still intact?
Yes.
But the county has put up metal bars on each end due to a large amount of water seepage inside. They are worried about a collapse.
Cool man! I hope it's full of bats. :-D
Love the ominous dripping cave sounds.
Have to lol about the ghost story too. There's sometimes fog by the tunnel? OooOOoooOOhhhh. That must be super creepy for people who don't know how fog works.
Put some warm, moist air in front of a giant hole in the ground with ~50 degree air coming out of it and whaddya get? That's right, condensation!
It may. Lots of old caves and tunnels are hated off to protect bat roosting areas from white nose syndrome.
Here is why the gates were put up. Kids in 2002 messing around inside near a collapse. Railroad historians said it was a difficult tunnel to maintain due to the seepage.
People used to go up there in winter time because these massive ice stalagmites/stalactites would form.
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EQuHJHGaWkM/WgF-60tVlLI/AAAAAAAA3Ps/8XleX2B5l5kj5QrMIxdjRmd01gbAiEuhACLcBGAs/s1600/2.jpg)
Wow, the tunnel made into this century before it was gated off? Fascinating. I guess no one told the lawyers before then. :-D
Love the old railroad ties still in place.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 22, 2021, 01:52:29 PM
Wow, the tunnel made into this century before it was gated off? Fascinating. I guess no one told the lawyers before then. :-D
Love the old railroad ties still in place.
It was actually gated off shortly after the property reverted back. The west portal is owned by the State of Illinois and is a park. The east portal returned to the private property owner and it didn't take long for sightseers to trespass.
So the fences were put up. The "collapse" you see in the picture is not actually the tunnel itself, its the airshaft from above.
With the equipment removed, rainwater worked its way into the shaft and weakened the surrounding clay near the top. As the clay washed out, the shale weakened and eventually the whole thing came down.