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Interstate 49 Texas (5 miles)

Started by Guysdrive780, November 27, 2014, 03:37:39 PM

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US71

Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2021, 05:04:01 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 08, 2021, 11:40:57 AM
Quote from: dariusb on May 07, 2021, 11:28:36 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but something tells me that the section of I-49 between Ft. Smith and Texarkana will be tolled. Seems like most of the interstates/freeways are doing that these days.

Right now, Arkansas has a constitutional amendment against tolls. So the likelihood of that is slim to none.

Most of the new freeways in Texas indeed are tolled. Arkansas is not Texas!
True, but Arkansas also doesn't have blinders on. They see the money NTTA is raising, and a gas tax hike is an abomination before Saint Grover.

A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.

WTF?  Arkansas would have to rewrite highway law to build a toll road (which they tried to do in Bella Vista, but failed).
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast


sprjus4

Quote from: US71 on May 09, 2021, 09:15:30 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2021, 05:04:01 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 08, 2021, 11:40:57 AM
Quote from: dariusb on May 07, 2021, 11:28:36 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but something tells me that the section of I-49 between Ft. Smith and Texarkana will be tolled. Seems like most of the interstates/freeways are doing that these days.

Right now, Arkansas has a constitutional amendment against tolls. So the likelihood of that is slim to none.

Most of the new freeways in Texas indeed are tolled. Arkansas is not Texas!
True, but Arkansas also doesn't have blinders on. They see the money NTTA is raising, and a gas tax hike is an abomination before Saint Grover.

A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.

WTF?  Arkansas would have to rewrite highway law to build a toll road (which they tried to do in Bella Vista, but failed).
For a long distance toll road segment like Texarkana to Fort Smith, they might do so. An "Arkansas Turnpike" or something like that would be built.

MaxConcrete

Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2021, 05:04:01 PM
A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.

I doubt that tolls would be sufficient to pay for the cost of construction between Texarkana and Fort Smith. In fact, don't think tolls would pay for half the cost, probably not even 25% of the cost.

Is there a cost estimate for that section? I'm thinking a minimum of $3 billion, and probably more considering the rough terrain. Has there been a toll feasibility study?

And I don't think you can compare Arkansas to the NTTA. North Texas has 7.7 million people and a job base with a high percentage of high paying jobs. Arkansas has 3 million people with mostly lower-paying jobs, except for Northwest Arkansas and the higher-paying jobs in that area.

Also consider that the Harris County Toll Road Authority has a total bond principal liability of $2.04 billion and has a total obligation of $3.162 billion including interest out to 2050. In 2019 they had $854 million in revenue, although 2020 will be much lower of course. I would expect an I-49 as a toll road to incur at least $3 billion in debt but have only a few tens of millions a year in revenue. It's just not going to work.

www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

US71

In 2017, it was estimated that completing I-49 to Texarkana would cost $2 Billion.  I am sure it is more than that now.

https://www.4029tv.com/article/ask-kelly-when-will-i-49-between-fort-smith-and-texarkana-be-complete/8775346#
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

Road Hog

Quote from: US71 on May 09, 2021, 09:15:30 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2021, 05:04:01 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 08, 2021, 11:40:57 AM
Quote from: dariusb on May 07, 2021, 11:28:36 PM
Maybe I'm wrong but something tells me that the section of I-49 between Ft. Smith and Texarkana will be tolled. Seems like most of the interstates/freeways are doing that these days.

Right now, Arkansas has a constitutional amendment against tolls. So the likelihood of that is slim to none.

Most of the new freeways in Texas indeed are tolled. Arkansas is not Texas!
True, but Arkansas also doesn't have blinders on. They see the money NTTA is raising, and a gas tax hike is an abomination before Saint Grover.

A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.

WTF?  Arkansas would have to rewrite highway law to build a toll road (which they tried to do in Bella Vista, but failed).
That's what I'm saying. The law will change – not this year (it's too late in the legislature) but very soon.

Road Hog

Quote from: MaxConcrete on May 09, 2021, 10:48:16 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2021, 05:04:01 PM
A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.

I doubt that tolls would be sufficient to pay for the cost of construction between Texarkana and Fort Smith. In fact, don't think tolls would pay for half the cost, probably not even 25% of the cost.

Is there a cost estimate for that section? I'm thinking a minimum of $3 billion, and probably more considering the rough terrain. Has there been a toll feasibility study?

And I don't think you can compare Arkansas to the NTTA. North Texas has 7.7 million people and a job base with a high percentage of high paying jobs. Arkansas has 3 million people with mostly lower-paying jobs, except for Northwest Arkansas and the higher-paying jobs in that area.

Also consider that the Harris County Toll Road Authority has a total bond principal liability of $2.04 billion and has a total obligation of $3.162 billion including interest out to 2050. In 2019 they had $854 million in revenue, although 2020 will be much lower of course. I would expect an I-49 as a toll road to incur at least $3 billion in debt but have only a few tens of millions a year in revenue. It's just not going to work.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that a toll will pay the whole freight for I-49, but it could be the carrot that gets it started. Tens of millions a year becomes hundreds of millions over a decade and multiple hundreds of millions over 2 decades. If they keep it Oklahoma-level low, I could go for it.

abqtraveler

Quote from: Road Hog on May 10, 2021, 01:14:20 AM
Quote from: MaxConcrete on May 09, 2021, 10:48:16 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2021, 05:04:01 PM
A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.

I doubt that tolls would be sufficient to pay for the cost of construction between Texarkana and Fort Smith. In fact, don't think tolls would pay for half the cost, probably not even 25% of the cost.

Is there a cost estimate for that section? I'm thinking a minimum of $3 billion, and probably more considering the rough terrain. Has there been a toll feasibility study?

And I don't think you can compare Arkansas to the NTTA. North Texas has 7.7 million people and a job base with a high percentage of high paying jobs. Arkansas has 3 million people with mostly lower-paying jobs, except for Northwest Arkansas and the higher-paying jobs in that area.

Also consider that the Harris County Toll Road Authority has a total bond principal liability of $2.04 billion and has a total obligation of $3.162 billion including interest out to 2050. In 2019 they had $854 million in revenue, although 2020 will be much lower of course. I would expect an I-49 as a toll road to incur at least $3 billion in debt but have only a few tens of millions a year in revenue. It's just not going to work.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that a toll will pay the whole freight for I-49, but it could be the carrot that gets it started. Tens of millions a year becomes hundreds of millions over a decade and multiple hundreds of millions over 2 decades. If they keep it Oklahoma-level low, I could go for it.

Point in fact, ArDOT considered tolling a new bridge for I-49 across the Arkansas River near Fort Smith, and their study determined that tolls would cover less than half of the projected construction cost. Tolls make sense if they're placed on routes that carry enough traffic to generate the revenue needed to cover both construction and upkeep. I don't think I-49 will generate the traffic necessary to make tolling alone a viable funding option, but tolls in combination with other funding sources may work to pay for I-49.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

MikieTimT

Quote from: abqtraveler on May 10, 2021, 09:36:26 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 10, 2021, 01:14:20 AM
Quote from: MaxConcrete on May 09, 2021, 10:48:16 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2021, 05:04:01 PM
A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.

I doubt that tolls would be sufficient to pay for the cost of construction between Texarkana and Fort Smith. In fact, don't think tolls would pay for half the cost, probably not even 25% of the cost.

Is there a cost estimate for that section? I'm thinking a minimum of $3 billion, and probably more considering the rough terrain. Has there been a toll feasibility study?

And I don't think you can compare Arkansas to the NTTA. North Texas has 7.7 million people and a job base with a high percentage of high paying jobs. Arkansas has 3 million people with mostly lower-paying jobs, except for Northwest Arkansas and the higher-paying jobs in that area.

Also consider that the Harris County Toll Road Authority has a total bond principal liability of $2.04 billion and has a total obligation of $3.162 billion including interest out to 2050. In 2019 they had $854 million in revenue, although 2020 will be much lower of course. I would expect an I-49 as a toll road to incur at least $3 billion in debt but have only a few tens of millions a year in revenue. It's just not going to work.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that a toll will pay the whole freight for I-49, but it could be the carrot that gets it started. Tens of millions a year becomes hundreds of millions over a decade and multiple hundreds of millions over 2 decades. If they keep it Oklahoma-level low, I could go for it.

Point in fact, ArDOT considered tolling a new bridge for I-49 across the Arkansas River near Fort Smith, and their study determined that tolls would cover less than half of the projected construction cost. Tolls make sense if they're placed on routes that carry enough traffic to generate the revenue needed to cover both construction and upkeep. I don't think I-49 will generate the traffic necessary to make tolling alone a viable funding option, but tolls in combination with other funding sources may work to pay for I-49.

Tolls only make sense when they'd make more money than it costs to setup the infrastructure to administer them.  Simply not going to happen in this state unless there's the ability to amortize that administrative overhead across several routes, not just one that's already Corridor #1 according to Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991.  I'd be shocked if there isn't some funding that comes about with upcoming infrastructure bills from the feds.  Tolls are DOA here, we just tax ourselves with fractional cents in sales tax for road funding increases.

bwana39

Quote from: MikieTimT on May 10, 2021, 03:29:18 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on May 10, 2021, 09:36:26 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 10, 2021, 01:14:20 AM
Quote from: MaxConcrete on May 09, 2021, 10:48:16 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on May 08, 2021, 05:04:01 PM
A toll is a fee and not a tax. Bada boom, bada bing. Get your toll tags ready, Arkies. Not this year because they're too busy owning the libs.

I doubt that tolls would be sufficient to pay for the cost of construction between Texarkana and Fort Smith. In fact, don't think tolls would pay for half the cost, probably not even 25% of the cost.

Is there a cost estimate for that section? I'm thinking a minimum of $3 billion, and probably more considering the rough terrain. Has there been a toll feasibility study?

And I don't think you can compare Arkansas to the NTTA. North Texas has 7.7 million people and a job base with a high percentage of high paying jobs. Arkansas has 3 million people with mostly lower-paying jobs, except for Northwest Arkansas and the higher-paying jobs in that area.

Also consider that the Harris County Toll Road Authority has a total bond principal liability of $2.04 billion and has a total obligation of $3.162 billion including interest out to 2050. In 2019 they had $854 million in revenue, although 2020 will be much lower of course. I would expect an I-49 as a toll road to incur at least $3 billion in debt but have only a few tens of millions a year in revenue. It's just not going to work.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that a toll will pay the whole freight for I-49, but it could be the carrot that gets it started. Tens of millions a year becomes hundreds of millions over a decade and multiple hundreds of millions over 2 decades. If they keep it Oklahoma-level low, I could go for it.

Point in fact, ArDOT considered tolling a new bridge for I-49 across the Arkansas River near Fort Smith, and their study determined that tolls would cover less than half of the projected construction cost. Tolls make sense if they're placed on routes that carry enough traffic to generate the revenue needed to cover both construction and upkeep. I don't think I-49 will generate the traffic necessary to make tolling alone a viable funding option, but tolls in combination with other funding sources may work to pay for I-49.

Tolls only make sense when they'd make more money than it costs to setup the infrastructure to administer them.  Simply not going to happen in this state unless there's the ability to amortize that administrative overhead across several routes, not just one that's already Corridor #1 according to Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991.  I'd be shocked if there isn't some funding that comes about with upcoming infrastructure bills from the feds.  Tolls are DOA here, we just tax ourselves with fractional cents in sales tax for road funding increases.

Tolls are a tricky thing for states like Arkansas and Mississippi. First is the traffic volume high enough to actually support the bonds the tolls would need to pay off? If the tolls cannot 100% pay for the road before it requires major maintenance, it is not a good fit. Secondly, those 80 -20 and 90-10 federal monies generally cannot be used for building and maintaining tollways.  The idea of paying for 100% using tolls or 20% using existing taxes is not nearly as  simple as it seems. Texas has lots of tolls because the urban areas where the tollways are have high utilization.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

US71

Quote from: bwana39 on May 10, 2021, 04:53:35 PM

Tolls are a tricky thing for states like Arkansas and Mississippi. First is the traffic volume high enough to actually support the bonds the tolls would need to pay off? If the tolls cannot 100% pay for the road before it requires major maintenance, it is not a good fit. Secondly, those 80 -20 and 90-10 federal monies generally cannot be used for building and maintaining tollways.  The idea of paying for 100% using tolls or 20% using existing taxes is not nearly as  simple as it seems. Texas has lots of tolls because the urban areas where the tollways are have high utilization.

Arkansas used to have toll bridges but that was back in the 1940''s or 50's (?).  XNA (Northwest Arkansas National Airport) proposed a private toll road to connect to the 412 Bypass, but has since decided to let ARDOT build access (no tolls)
Like Alice I Try To Believe Three Impossible Things Before Breakfast

The Ghostbuster

I doubt we'll be seeing any toll roads in Arkansas. Both Interstates 49 and 69 in Arkansas will likely be built little-by-little, piece-by-piece, segment-by-segment, over the next several decades.

dariusb

I have a question, has there ever been a highway that started out as a toll road and later became free after the money that was spent on construction was recouped?
It's a new day for a new beginning.

sprjus4

Quote from: dariusb on May 11, 2021, 11:06:27 AM
I have a question, has there ever been a highway that started out as a toll road and later became free after the money that was spent on construction was recouped?
Richmond-Petersburg Turnpike (I-95 and the northern part of I-85) between Richmond and Petersburg
Norfolk-Virginia Beach Expressway (I-264, former VA-44) between I-64 in Norfolk and Virginia Beach Oceanfront
The Downtown and Midtown Tunnels in Norfolk-Portsmouth were tolled, removed in the 90s, then became tolled again in 2014.

bwana39

Quote from: dariusb on May 11, 2021, 11:06:27 AM
I have a question, has there ever been a highway that started out as a toll road and later became free after the money that was spent on construction was recouped?

Dallas Fort Worth Turnpike in Dallas I-30 between the two cities.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

triplemultiplex

And all of the Kentucky Parkways.  And I-95 in Connecticut; that used to be tolled between the NY state line and like Bridgeport or something.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

Rick Powell

Quote from: dariusb on May 11, 2021, 11:06:27 AM
I have a question, has there ever been a highway that started out as a toll road and later became free after the money that was spent on construction was recouped?

And then there's the "good intentions" that never were fulfilled.

https://abc7chicago.com/archive/8327185/

I think the last toll facility in IL to have tolls removed was the Bauer Bridge in Machesney Park, not quite 10 years ago.

https://www.rrstar.com/article/20120515/NEWS/305159907

sprjus4

^ The Dulles Toll Road is this. Tolls extended to who knows when to finance the construction of the Silver Line extension.

The Chesapeake Expressway (VA-168) was supposed to be stripped of its tolls by 2032 or sooner, and the facility has already collected more revenue than it cost to construct. However, toll rates just recently increased (up to $9 on peak weekends for 6 miles of freeway to bypass a rural 2 lane road! - people don't seem to mind paying it though as the road is quite busy during those times) and tolling will continue through at least 2051 to help repay bonds on the more recently constructed Dominion Blvd (US-17) Veterans Bridge which is also tolled.

zzcarp

Quote from: dariusb on May 11, 2021, 11:06:27 AM
I have a question, has there ever been a highway that started out as a toll road and later became free after the money that was spent on construction was recouped?

The Denver-Boulder Turnpike was toll from 1952 to 1967 when it was made free (and US 36 extended over it after it became free). With the mid-2010s reconstruction, there's now a high-occupancy/toll lane the entire length of the corridor, making it a toll road that became a free road that is now a hybrid.
So many miles and so many roads

abqtraveler

Quote from: triplemultiplex on May 11, 2021, 02:48:44 PM
And all of the Kentucky Parkways.  And I-95 in Connecticut; that used to be tolled between the NY state line and like Bridgeport or something.
The Connecticut Turnpike was tolled from the NY line at Greenwich to the RI line east of Killingly, although it was easy for motorists familiar with the local roads to bypass the toll plazas since the Turnpike was never a "closed" ticket system and didn't use ramp tolls to ensure everyone who entered and exited the Turnpike paid the toll. As a result, the only sections on the Connecticut Turnpike that were truly tolled were between the interchanges immediately before and and after each of the eight mainline toll plazas. Tolls were removed in 1985 after the Turnpike's construction bonds were paid off.
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

kphoger

Then there's the Camino Colombia Toll Road in Texas, which had its tolls removed even though "the money that was spent on construction" was never recouped.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

abqtraveler

Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:39:39 PM
Then there's the Camino Colombia Toll Road in Texas, which had its tolls removed even though "the money that was spent on construction" was never recouped.
Wasn't that because the private company that built the Camino Colombia went belly-up, and TxDOT had to take it over afterward?
2-d Interstates traveled:  4, 5, 8, 10, 15, 20, 24, 25, 27, 29, 35, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 49, 55, 57, 64, 65, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, 76(E), 77, 78, 81, 83, 84(W), 85, 87(N), 89, 90, 91, 93, 94, 95

2-d Interstates Clinched:  12, 22, 30, 37, 44, 59, 80, 84(E), 86(E), 238, H1, H2, H3, H201

jmacswimmer

Quote from: dariusb on May 11, 2021, 11:06:27 AM
I have a question, has there ever been a highway that started out as a toll road and later became free after the money that was spent on construction was recouped?

The US 278 Cross Island Parkway on Hilton Head Island will join this club at 11:59 PM on June 30th.
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

kphoger

Quote from: abqtraveler on May 12, 2021, 01:09:01 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:39:39 PM
Then there's the Camino Colombia Toll Road in Texas, which had its tolls removed even though "the money that was spent on construction" was never recouped.

Wasn't that because the private company that built the Camino Colombia went belly-up, and TxDOT had to take it over afterward?

Yes.  But the tolls weren't removed until 13½ years after TxDOT took it over.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

codyg1985

Quote from: dariusb on May 11, 2021, 11:06:27 AM
I have a question, has there ever been a highway that started out as a toll road and later became free after the money that was spent on construction was recouped?

GA 400 in Atlanta is one of those.
Cody Goodman
Huntsville, AL, United States

Road Hog

Quote from: US71 on May 10, 2021, 06:00:06 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on May 10, 2021, 04:53:35 PM

Tolls are a tricky thing for states like Arkansas and Mississippi. First is the traffic volume high enough to actually support the bonds the tolls would need to pay off? If the tolls cannot 100% pay for the road before it requires major maintenance, it is not a good fit. Secondly, those 80 -20 and 90-10 federal monies generally cannot be used for building and maintaining tollways.  The idea of paying for 100% using tolls or 20% using existing taxes is not nearly as  simple as it seems. Texas has lots of tolls because the urban areas where the tollways are have high utilization.

Arkansas used to have toll bridges but that was back in the 1940''s or 50's (?).  XNA (Northwest Arkansas National Airport) proposed a private toll road to connect to the 412 Bypass, but has since decided to let ARDOT build access (no tolls)
Arkansas had several private toll ferries into the 1990s, the Peel Ferry among them. I guess the constitutional dodge was they were allowed to operate as long as there wasn't a free bridge alternative. Duh.

Although a 2017 adjustment to the law implies state-owned toll bridges, which peaked my interest a little:
https://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/2017/title-27/subtitle-6/chapter-87/subchapter-4/section-27-87-403/



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