Iowa says US-20 is too dangerous in Illinois

Started by edwaleni, November 30, 2020, 04:58:53 PM

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I-39

Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher.  Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits.  Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage.  The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.

This article is from just under 3 years ago.

https://www.journalstandard.com/news/20180203/safety-upgrades-sought-for-us-20-west-of-freeport

Notice this quote

The danger involved in moving goods along U.S. 20 on the two-lane, hilly and curving segment, causes companies to send their trucks over longer routes to avoid U.S. 20, adding costs that businesses would like to avoid. The study talked to 96 businesses and determined that while U.S. 20 is the shortest route to Chicagoland and Rochelle, companies routinely have their trucks avoid the road, taking longer, indirect routes instead.

Not using U.S. 20 adds 59 minutes and 83 miles to a trip to the Rochelle intermodal hub; not using U.S. 20 to Chicago adds 26 minutes and 57 miles to a trip.


The same thing happened with US 51 in the 1980s. The old US 51 didn't break 10,000+ VPD, but when I-39 opened, it allowed for traffic to grow.

Yes, US 20 would hit 5 digits with a modern four lane road. Again, they went overboard with a full freeway, but a free flowing (i.e, no stoplights) four lane divided highway would be sufficient here.


edwaleni

Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher.  Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits.  Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage.  The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.

Today, I would agree with this. Anyone moving a OTR truck from the east to say the Twin Cities will use 80 to reach I-380 in Iowa City to make the turn north.  Or they would take the ISTHA I-294 around Chicago to reach the 90-94 combo.

The benefit of a US-20 upgrade would be both in capacity and in route resiliency. I think there would be an argument if either is needed at this time.

From this perspective its more than just Illinois, Iowa would have a large amount of work to do. The recent opening of the SW Arterial is a good start but traffic still has to traverse downtown and the Julien Dubuque. Years ago they had planned for the US-20 Bypass south of Dubuque proper and shelved it.

My "beef' is that the route is unsafe between Freeport and Dubuque. Head on crashes with trucks crossing over the centerline are the most common.

I would gladly promote a Macomb Bypass approach where IDOT acquires the land for a 4 lane ROW, but only builds 2 lanes with the proper geometries, widths and shoulders to support safer traffic.

If/when that time comes that traffic justfies the expansion, they have it.

3467

That was the Galena bypass idea 2 lanes like Macomb.
I read that report on trucks and their data didn't convince me. Rochelle is on 88 . Why would trucks be taking 20?
The road needs passing lanes and safety improvements.
BTW the East West Tollway  was to go to QC and have a spur to Clinton. It's on Page 5 of Illinois Tollway notes

I-39

Quote from: 3467 on December 02, 2020, 01:33:46 PM
That was the Galena bypass idea 2 lanes like Macomb.
I read that report on trucks and their data didn't convince me. Rochelle is on 88 . Why would trucks be taking 20?
The road needs passing lanes and safety improvements.
BTW the East West Tollway  was to go to QC and have a spur to Clinton. It's on Page 5 of Illinois Tollway notes

US 20 is probably less traveled in NW Iowa and yet, it was recently completed to four lanes. It is ridiculous US 20 is four lanes for virtually the entire length from Rockford to Sioux City except for the 47 mile segment between Freeport and Galena.

I agree that two lanes on a new 4 lane ROW would be sufficient to start.

edwaleni

Quote from: 3467 on December 02, 2020, 01:33:46 PM
That was the Galena bypass idea 2 lanes like Macomb.
I read that report on trucks and their data didn't convince me. Rochelle is on 88 . Why would trucks be taking 20?
The road needs passing lanes and safety improvements.
BTW the East West Tollway  was to go to QC and have a spur to Clinton. It's on Page 5 of Illinois Tollway notes

The traffic to Rochelle via US-20 was to get certain NE Iowa products to the UP Global yard there. However, UP just shut down that yard down to flat local switching.

NE Iowa does not have a large amount of choice for small/medium industrial transloads, especially ones that are going east of Chicago. So they truck it over to Rochelle to get it classified and routed.

With the yard shut down, they will probably go the other way as UP announced they are going to set up a regular service from Sioux City to North Platte.

So a reversal of truck traffic (if they stick with UP) or they will try to find a deal with BNSF in Dubuque. I would like to think they would have done that already, but weren't getting reasonable pricing.

As for the "spur" to Clinton Illinois it was FAP-402, and to complete the gap from ISTHA and the QC it was FAP-403. These routes were passed in Congress as part of the supplemental highway plan in 1974. That is why ISTHA stopped at Rock Falls when it was extended in 1975.

FAP-403 was funded and finished in 1979. FAP-402 was dropped due to the oil crisis.


3467

One minor correction You meant the state legislature. Walker killed them by ignoring them . Thompson came in and remained them principle arterial (supplemental freeway) was out in the annual report sometimes. We have an old thread on that and I have dug up some new history I need to post..
I checked the latest traffic and truck counts . I don't see where the massive extra traffic would come from. Iowa studied the 80 corridor and concluded they really couldn't divert much traffic off of it.
Though the rural areas control the legislature so who knows what it may decide. The opposite is true in Illinois. Relations are not good between the states. Or Missouri. They are between WI IN and MI. But there don't seem to be any highway issues except with Iowa.

froggie

Quote from: I-39 on December 02, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher.  Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits.  Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage.  The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.

This article is from just under 3 years ago.

https://www.journalstandard.com/news/20180203/safety-upgrades-sought-for-us-20-west-of-freeport

Notice this quote

The danger involved in moving goods along U.S. 20 on the two-lane, hilly and curving segment, causes companies to send their trucks over longer routes to avoid U.S. 20, adding costs that businesses would like to avoid. The study talked to 96 businesses and determined that while U.S. 20 is the shortest route to Chicagoland and Rochelle, companies routinely have their trucks avoid the road, taking longer, indirect routes instead.

Not using U.S. 20 adds 59 minutes and 83 miles to a trip to the Rochelle intermodal hub; not using U.S. 20 to Chicago adds 26 minutes and 57 miles to a trip.


The same thing happened with US 51 in the 1980s. The old US 51 didn't break 10,000+ VPD, but when I-39 opened, it allowed for traffic to grow.

Yes, US 20 would hit 5 digits with a modern four lane road. Again, they went overboard with a full freeway, but a free flowing (i.e, no stoplights) four lane divided highway would be sufficient here.

Again, there is not a lot of volume coming to/from that region that would be trying to access Rochelle or Chicago.  Not enough to where it would push US 20's volume above 10K even if all those trucks used US 20.

3467

There is about a 500 truck bump after 280 but I can't see that being a lot of diverted traffic. Take a look at the Iowa Truck volume map . I sure don't find the diverted trucks.

I-39

So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?

SSOWorld

Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT. 

As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.

*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

I-39

Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT. 

As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.

*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.

Ok, politics aside, that doesn't really answer the question. From a traffic standpoint, what makes US 151 different that it needed four lanes?

BTW, I'd argue Doyle eliminating the gas tax index was worse.

3467

You can't take the politics out .The advocate for the freeway was one engineer.
Chuck Sweeney was a journalistic advocate for an expressway freeway or some improv and I say was because he died a couple of years ago.
SSO described it. IDIOT won't do anything without pressure and Galena didn't even want much of an upgrade through town.


Revive 755

Looking at some of the freight flow maps from FHWA's website, I could see a combination of an improved US 20, the Avenue of the Saints, and I-35 pulling some trucks from I-94 and I-39/I-90 in Wisconsin.

froggie

Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?

For starters, 151 had and has quite a bit more traffic than 20.  Even 10-15 years ago, 151's quietest section between Dubuque and Dodgeville had more traffic than 20's busiest section between Galena and Freeport.  2007 volumes on 151 show nothing lower than 8K.

3467

Nice maps wish they did them for cars like Froggies maps.

hbelkins

Quote from: I-39 on December 05, 2020, 09:44:03 AM
Quote from: SSOWorld on December 05, 2020, 06:59:18 AM
Quote from: I-39 on December 04, 2020, 09:25:42 PM
So let me ask this, if US 20 truly doesn't need four lanes at all between Freeport and Galena, even as a simple four lane expressway, why did US 151 need four lanes between Dodgeville and Dubuque? What makes it different?
Pre-2010 WisDOT* vs IDiOT. 

As in the first one goes balls to the wall, while the latter does not do jack shit.

*Before the budget was cut by Chicken Walker.

Ok, politics aside, that doesn't really answer the question. From a traffic standpoint, what makes US 151 different that it needed four lanes?

BTW, I'd argue Doyle eliminating the gas tax index was worse.

Different states have different priorities. Look at Kentucky and Virginia where US 460 is concerned. Completing Corridor Q is a much higher priority for us than for them. Or West Virginia and Virginia where Corridor H is concerned.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

3467

Oh yes the Midwestern states have a history of fighting and cooperating then Bach to fighting.

JREwing78

I'm going to hazard a guess that the AADT numbers don't really factor in Galena-bound traffic on weekends. Even as is, with 15-20% of that volume as truck freight, those numbers certainly warrant upgrades to the existing highway. Portions of US-20 west of Freeport are almost absurdly narrow (9 or 10 ft travel lanes with NO shoulder).

If IDOT merely purchased 300' wide ROW and built a modern 2-lane highway (with appropriate climbing/passing lanes), that would solve a lot of problems. Widening and modernizing the existing road would probably consume similar amounts of money up front and not be able to be upgraded to a 4-lane highway (likely why IDOT hasn't done it).

3467

4 miles of what you suggest are in the current plan. It's been in there. Just before the freeway idea the rapid addition of passing lanes ended.. I know that they were planning near continuous passing lanes for 67 29 and 20 but then they went from best to worst among DOTs.

froggie

Quote from: Revive 755 on December 05, 2020, 12:55:45 PM
Looking at some of the freight flow maps from FHWA's website, I could see a combination of an improved US 20, the Avenue of the Saints, and I-35 pulling some trucks from I-94 and I-39/I-90 in Wisconsin.

From I-39/90, yes.  But I doubt it would pull trucks off 94.  An improved US 20 (plus AoS and I-35) is more or less the same distance as I-90 between Rockford and Albert Lea.  But it would be a route almost 90 miles longer to the Twin Cities.  As it is, trucks to the Twin Cities can take I-90/US 52 to avoid I-94 on a route that is "only" 25 miles longer than I-94.

kphoger

Quote from: JREwing78 on December 06, 2020, 01:34:32 PM
I'm going to hazard a guess that the AADT numbers don't really factor in Galena-bound traffic on weekends.

Huh?  How do figure that managed to happen?  They just didn't count half the traffic on certain days of the week?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

hbelkins

Quote from: kphoger on December 09, 2020, 01:08:01 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on December 06, 2020, 01:34:32 PM
I'm going to hazard a guess that the AADT numbers don't really factor in Galena-bound traffic on weekends.

Huh?  How do figure that managed to happen?  They just didn't count half the traffic on certain days of the week?

Probably depends on how many days they leave the counters out. Kentucky has very few permanent traffic count stations, especially on non-interstates. They place portable pneumatic counting devices on the roads at designated points to determine traffic counts.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

3467

Illinois has too Hbelkins. There was a post from New York In the Northeast group on 70s freeway plans that NY actually inflates its figures.
I have driven and counted cars to tell you that on AADT Illinois is telling the truth and Chicago arterial have been in sharp decline and downstate flat. It's why there are only a couple of live 4 lane projects downstate
If remotes work continues it will be hard to justify any more than maintenance on roads and transit.

captkirk_4

Quote from: edwaleni on December 02, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher.  Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits.  Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage.  The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.

Today, I would agree with this. Anyone moving a OTR truck from the east to say the Twin Cities will use 80 to reach I-380 in Iowa City to make the turn north.  Or they would take the ISTHA I-294 around Chicago to reach the 90-94 combo.

The benefit of a US-20 upgrade would be both in capacity and in route resiliency. I think there would be an argument if either is needed at this time.

From this perspective its more than just Illinois, Iowa would have a large amount of work to do. The recent opening of the SW Arterial is a good start but traffic still has to traverse downtown and the Julien Dubuque. Years ago they had planned for the US-20 Bypass south of Dubuque proper and shelved it.

My "beef' is that the route is unsafe between Freeport and Dubuque. Head on crashes with trucks crossing over the centerline are the most common.

I would gladly promote a Macomb Bypass approach where IDOT acquires the land for a 4 lane ROW, but only builds 2 lanes with the proper geometries, widths and shoulders to support safer traffic.

If/when that time comes that traffic justfies the expansion, they have it.

The route seems more an alternative from Chicago to hooking up with I-90 in South Dakota than to I-80. I don't see a huge need for relief on I-90 across southern MN and WI except maybe when a snowstorm is affecting those areas but leaving 20 to the south untouched? Still, when I was a kid we took a field trip in school to Galena and Dubuque and that portion from Freeport to Galena was very slow and old. The route could use a general four lane upgrade with bypasses and at grade crossings with the right of way preserved for a possible full fledged interstate if for some reason traffic picked up to warranty it, or a particular crossing became to dangerous to leave as is. At a minimum first step some two lane bypasses of the towns along the route would be a start. (I remember they took us to this ultimate "old people" restaurant in Dubuque called "Now Serving Smorgastable" and besides us kids everyone else was gray haired retired folks eating some crappy buffet.)

I-39

Quote from: captkirk_4 on December 11, 2020, 09:05:55 AM
Quote from: edwaleni on December 02, 2020, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 02, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I'm not convinced they'd be that much higher.  Certainly nothing that would push the volumes to 5-digits.  Long range truckers aren't going to shift THAT far north just to avoid I-80...that's a lot of extra time and mileage.  The delays on I-80 aren't so bad that it'd be worth the extra time and expense.

Today, I would agree with this. Anyone moving a OTR truck from the east to say the Twin Cities will use 80 to reach I-380 in Iowa City to make the turn north.  Or they would take the ISTHA I-294 around Chicago to reach the 90-94 combo.

The benefit of a US-20 upgrade would be both in capacity and in route resiliency. I think there would be an argument if either is needed at this time.

From this perspective its more than just Illinois, Iowa would have a large amount of work to do. The recent opening of the SW Arterial is a good start but traffic still has to traverse downtown and the Julien Dubuque. Years ago they had planned for the US-20 Bypass south of Dubuque proper and shelved it.

My "beef' is that the route is unsafe between Freeport and Dubuque. Head on crashes with trucks crossing over the centerline are the most common.

I would gladly promote a Macomb Bypass approach where IDOT acquires the land for a 4 lane ROW, but only builds 2 lanes with the proper geometries, widths and shoulders to support safer traffic.

If/when that time comes that traffic justfies the expansion, they have it.

The route seems more an alternative from Chicago to hooking up with I-90 in South Dakota than to I-80. I don't see a huge need for relief on I-90 across southern MN and WI except maybe when a snowstorm is affecting those areas but leaving 20 to the south untouched? Still, when I was a kid we took a field trip in school to Galena and Dubuque and that portion from Freeport to Galena was very slow and old. The route could use a general four lane upgrade with bypasses and at grade crossings with the right of way preserved for a possible full fledged interstate if for some reason traffic picked up to warranty it, or a particular crossing became to dangerous to leave as is. At a minimum first step some two lane bypasses of the towns along the route would be a start. (I remember they took us to this ultimate "old people" restaurant in Dubuque called "Now Serving Smorgastable" and besides us kids everyone else was gray haired retired folks eating some crappy buffet.)

Pretty much the entirety of the road between Galena and Stockton needs to be on a new alignment. I like the idea of simply acquiring four lane ROW and simply building a two lane road that could be widened in the future if need be.



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