Speed enforcement and tolerance

[kphoger]

What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?

It's simple math. More lane changes = higher chance of cutting someone off or a collision.

Ostensibly, yes. But intentionally changing lanes either rarely, or never, will likely increase the need for those around you to change lanes in response to your desire to not change lanes.

Not if everyone just uses the correct lane for their speed ...

What does this even mean?  What lane is "the correct lane" for driving 63 mph on a 60 mph highway?  Well, obviously, that depends on the speed of all the other vehicles around you.  One minute, you might be "slower traffic", and three minutes later you might be "faster traffic".

You just answered your own question. If traffic is moving faster and you're going slower, you keep right, and vice versa with keeping left. Sometimes the "correct" lane for your speed changes, especially at the beginnings and ends of speed zones.

Then how does that contradict what |jakeroot| said?  If (a) you're using the correct lane for your speed and (b) the correct lane for your speed changes, then (c) you aren't "intentionally changing lane either rarely, or never".

[jmacswimmer]

The insidious aspect of DC's cameras isn't the tolerance, it's the placement.  There are speed cameras on expressways.  I-395 through Downtown has a speed limit of 40, with camera enforcement. 

Here's a pic of that sign. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8824535,-77.0165684,3a,75y,261.34h,78.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sROLo1fWGfD_91fjSIFViQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The curious thing is that that specific stretch of I-395 (west of I-695) doesn't currently have a speed camera (and the prevailing speed of traffic when I've driven thru there suggests that everyone knows this).  There are, however, speed cameras north of I-695 somewhere in the 3rd Street Tunnel.

(And notice how the "photo enforced" signs are rather small and somewhat easy to miss - compare to the massive signs MDOT SHA uses entering work zones.)

Also, I completely agree with your sentiment on the real motivation behind those cameras - from the "Interstates without a welcome sign after crossing a state line" thread:

They actually do have one, but unfortunately don't use it on the interstates.

Wow - in all the times I've driven thru there on DC 295, I've never once noticed that sign  (maybe because I'm closely watching my speedometer due to DC's revenue generators speed cameras...)

[interstatefan990]

What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?

It's simple math. More lane changes = higher chance of cutting someone off or a collision.

Ostensibly, yes. But intentionally changing lanes either rarely, or never, will likely increase the need for those around you to change lanes in response to your desire to not change lanes.

Not if everyone just uses the correct lane for their speed ...

What does this even mean?  What lane is "the correct lane" for driving 63 mph on a 60 mph highway?  Well, obviously, that depends on the speed of all the other vehicles around you.  One minute, you might be "slower traffic", and three minutes later you might be "faster traffic".

You just answered your own question. If traffic is moving faster and you're going slower, you keep right, and vice versa with keeping left. Sometimes the "correct" lane for your speed changes, especially at the beginnings and ends of speed zones.

Then how does that contradict what |jakeroot| said?  If (a) you're using the correct lane for your speed and (b) the correct lane for your speed changes, then (c) you aren't "intentionally changing lane either rarely, or never".

Uhh...

there should only be an occasional need for a lane change

Never said never.

[kphoger]

I guess it's the hair-splitting between "occasionally" and "rarely", then.  Eh, OK.  Maybe our language just has too many synonyms with slightly different connotations.   

[webny99]

  Maybe  Our language just has too many synonyms with slightly different connotations. 

FTFY...

[kphoger]

On Sunday evening at around 9:30 PM, I drove this ten-mile stretch of uninterrupted six-lane freeway.  Traffic was so light that, even though I was driving approximately 8 mph over the speed limit the whole time, I only passed five vehicles.  And do you know what?  I never once moved out of the right lane, the entire time.  All five of those vehicles were in the middle lane for no good reason.

(One driver even moved into the center lane while I was still a ways behind them, then moved back into the right lane a couple of miles later to exit.  But they were from out of state, so they might have thought this sign meant "exit only".   )

[1995hoo]

On Sunday evening at around 9:30 PM, I drove this ten-mile stretch of uninterrupted six-lane freeway.  Traffic was so light that, even though I was driving approximately 8 mph over the speed limit the whole time, I only passed five vehicles.  And do you know what?  I never once moved out of the right lane, the entire time.  All five of those vehicles were in the middle lane for no good reason.

(One driver even moved into the center lane while I was still a ways behind them, then moved back into the right lane a couple of miles later to exit.  But they were from out of state, so they might have thought this sign meant "exit only".   )

What sort of headlights does your car have, or are you driving a vehicle that is higher off the ground? I ask because I've seen people change lanes inexplicably ahead of me and I've wondered whether they didn't like my headlights, although that has become far less frequent as HIDs and LED headlights have become more common. Back in 2004 when I first got my current primary car, oncoming people would high-beam me at night periodically, which led to a Crocodile Dundee response from me–"Those aren't high-beams. [pull stalk] THOSE are high-beams." Based on that, I've wondered if a person who changes lanes from in front of me for no apparent reason maybe dislikes my headlights. I've sometimes changed lanes when an SUV or jacked-up pickup's headlights are annoying me in the rearview mirror.

[Scott5114]

Sometimes at night I'll drive unusually slow/change lanes/etc. if the car behind me has headlights that resemble that of a cop car, or I catch a glimpse in the mirror of what could be a light bar (but usually turns out to be a luggage rack). I wish that cop cars were mandated to identify themselves at night somehow so I wouldn't have to be so paranoid about it, like maybe always having one of the blue lights on the bar on steady or something like that.

[kphoger]

No, I drive a 2006 Pathfinder with normal headlights.  The timing and suddenness of the lane changes really made me think they were just confused out-of-towners.  I was probably a tenth of a mile behind them when they shifted left.

Anyway, that only eliminates one.

[Big John]

Then there is more obnoxious speed enforcement programs such as aerial enforcement: https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/state-patrol-plans-aerial-speed-enforcement-for-brown-county/

[Flint1979]

Michigan State Police had multiple speed traps in the 75 mph zone on I-75 yesterday. I was doing 85 and they didn't mess with me.

[jakeroot]

Then there is more obnoxious speed enforcement programs such as aerial enforcement: https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/state-patrol-plans-aerial-speed-enforcement-for-brown-county/

Washington State Patrol was quite infamous for doing this in Marysville and Olympia for years, maybe even decades. But lately, they seem to use the strategy only infrequently at best. At least if Twitter references to it are any indication (I'm not out there spotting the planes or tracking them online).

[kphoger]

What a waste of tax money.  How much fuel is used flying those planes?

[jakeroot]

What a waste of tax money.  How much fuel is used flying those planes?

I think the planes use about 12-15 gallons/hour of...whatever fuel small planes use.

I don't think it's a giant waste. Washington State Patrol uses the planes for a ton of things, not necessarily unlike what other agencies might use helicopters for:

Aerial services provide assistance to troopers, agency staff, and local jurisdictions by providing:

• Statewide day and night aerial traffic enforcement
• Traffic congestion management
• Identification of locations where serious injury or fatality collisions are likely to occur
• Vehicle pursuit management
• Tactical advantage to ground-based troopers providing additional safety
• Support for Emergency Preparedness/Homeland Security
• All-hazards emergency service air operations
• Other law enforcement missions including: Stolen vehicle recoveries, fraud tax and evasion, wildland fire management, natural disaster assistance, spill response, search and rescue, and much more

https://www.wsp.wa.gov/driver/enforcement/

[sprjus4]

The others might be semi-reasonable, but there's no need to do it for continuing typical speed enforcement.

[jakeroot]

The others might be semi-reasonable, but there's no need to do it for continuing typical speed enforcement.

I think it's too expensive for use in continual enforcement anyway. Aerial enforcement is performed on key days only, if I recall correctly.

[Scott5114]

I think the planes use about 12-15 gallons/hour of...whatever fuel small planes use.

Aviation gas, aka avgas. It's a little hard to figure how it compares to auto gas, since airplanes have a mixture control that allows them to adjust the ratio of air and gas going into the engine in real time, but it looks like it's probably most comparable to 100 octane. Here is a site listing avgas prices at whatever airport you like. The airport my dad gets his from is currently at $3.75/gal; for comparison the lowest car gas price in Norman is $2.52/gal at Walmart.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

I've never felt Minnesota has much tolerance. You might get 6-7 over and then they're pulling people.

I've noticed enforcement here tends to be all or nothing, though. You'll either drive across the state seeing maybe one trooper, or if you're unlucky every single trooper, deputy, and local cop is out running radar on a given day.

[GeekJedi]

Rosendale WI is a notorious speed trap.  WisDOT now recommends taking I-41 to US 151 instead of WI 26 from Oshkosh to Waupun to bypass Rosendale.

The actual reason isn't to bypass Rosendale because of the "speed trap". It's because 151 to 41 is expressway, while 26 is a two lane country road without many opportunities to pass, making it a dangerous stretch of road when congested.

In my experience in WI (and I drive around the state a LOT!) the tolerance seems to be up to 9 over on the highways, and about 5 over in town. I typically set my cruise to 8 over on the freeways, and 5 over in town and have never gotten a ticket, even in high enforcement areas.

In fact, there was an article in the Milwaukee JS on the Rosendale speed trap and there weren't any tickets issued for 1-8MPH over in the time researched.

[Flint1979]

Michigan gives you about 6-7 over and then they come after ya. On freeways you can generally do about 10 over and be fine but anything more they'll come after ya. A Michigan State Trooper told me once that driving 80 mph in a 70 zone they aren't going to bother you but if you are doing 85 they'll nail ya. So my best advice is to keep it at 80.

I've passed an Ohio State Highway Patrol cruiser before at 80 mph in a 70 mph zone on I-75 and didn't get messed with.

[sprjus4]

Passed a cop on MD-100 at 75 mph in a 55 mph... didn't bat an eye. The flow was mostly going that speed.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

Michigan gives you about 6-7 over and then they come after ya. On freeways you can generally do about 10 over and be fine but anything more they'll come after ya. A Michigan State Trooper told me once that driving 80 mph in a 70 zone they aren't going to bother you but if you are doing 85 they'll nail ya. So my best advice is to keep it at 80.

I've passed an Ohio State Highway Patrol cruiser before at 80 mph in a 70 mph zone on I-75 and didn't get messed with.

Brandon once told us of a saying in Michigan regarding going over, "nine you're fine, ten you're mine".

[Flint1979]

Michigan gives you about 6-7 over and then they come after ya. On freeways you can generally do about 10 over and be fine but anything more they'll come after ya. A Michigan State Trooper told me once that driving 80 mph in a 70 zone they aren't going to bother you but if you are doing 85 they'll nail ya. So my best advice is to keep it at 80.

I've passed an Ohio State Highway Patrol cruiser before at 80 mph in a 70 mph zone on I-75 and didn't get messed with.

Brandon once told us of a saying in Michigan regarding going over, "nine you're fine, ten you're mine".

Yeah it was 8 over your fine 10 over your mine. You can do 10 over and be okay though.

[Flint1979]

For state highways and really any 55 zone you can do up to 62 before they're going to mess with you. Even doing 65 is fine in some places.

By me we have M-58 which is a 5-mile state highway in Saginaw between I-675 and M-47. Saginaw city cops won't do anything to you for speeding unless you're going extremely fast and standing out. Saginaw Township cops however will nail you for doing any more than seven over. Saginaw County Sheriff's Department and Michigan State Police generally don't pull people over for speeding unless it's on the freeway or you're going extremely fast and standing out.