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How do you define the Midwest?

Started by hotdogPi, August 17, 2018, 07:12:42 AM

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jon daly

Quote from: SP Cook on September 26, 2018, 09:25:11 AM
NCAA - The use of "regional" by the NCAA is very dated.  As pointed out, they used to assign teams according to actual geography.  This was because the $$ were in the live gate, and if Kentucky won the SEC and got sent to Louisville, or Indy, or Knoxville or Nashville and so on they sold a lot of tickets. 

Now they have turned the whole thing into an over-analyzed try to make everybody equal thing which sends teams all over.   Because the money is in the TV and one arena is the same as the next, all are just studios, really. 

Outside of games involving local or local ish teams the easiest ticket in live sports to get is the first round NCAA, particularly the day sessions.

Yeah. When I was heavily into college hoops and followed UConn, they'd wind up in whatever region. college basketball reference surely has the data, but I'd be willing to guess that the "de-regionalization" of the tournament happened after the Bird-Magic tournament turned the NCAA into a Big Time thing.*

* But I'm not sure if that's when March Madness started or if its a myth.


kphoger

#101
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 01:42:17 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2018, 07:07:47 PM
I've lived in Illinois and Kansas my whole life, grew up in the northwestern corner of Kansas.  It never occurred to me that I was not living in the Midwest.  To me, the Great Plains is a subsection of the Midwest.

To me, the Midwest extends from the Front Range to Ohio, and from the Canadian border to whatever point begins the Mid-south.  My thinking might be more agricultural in nature than anything:  the Midwest is the part of the country between the East and the West with extensive large-scale farming.

Doesn't that mean you would consider places like Denver to be part of the Midwest? I'm pretty sure anybody in Colorado would consider themselves Western.

No, Denver is part of the Front Range, and it is therefore part of the western boundary.  Between the KS/CO state line and Denver, the geography becomes a little more western and the ranch-to-farm ratio increases, so that boundary is a little fuzzy.  However, the plains do extend basically right up to Denver's doorstep, with large-scale farming on rectilinear plots right next door to DIA.  I have distinct memories of looking out the window at DIA and seeing combines and cattle.

ETA:   Anton (CO), for example, bears more resemblance to Strawn (IL) than you might think.




Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
And I'd include the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas before I'd include Ohio, so there's that.

When I first heard Cincinnati referred to as the "Queen City of the West," I thought it must be a joke.  Then I started thinking about how long ago that moniker must have been applied, and it made more sense.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Eth

Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on September 26, 2018, 01:42:17 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 25, 2018, 09:38:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 23, 2018, 08:29:58 PM
That might be why I have a hard time thinking of the Great Plains as part of the Midwest.  I tend to think of the Midwest as being in the eastern part of the country.
Expanding this, I tend to think of the Midwest as "the northeastern part of the country that isn't actually part of the Northeast".  The Mississippi River, to me, is a Very Important Boundary (as is the Ohio River).
I would very much consider Minnesota and Iowa part of the Midwest, despite being west of the Mississippi.

Yeah, Minnesota and Iowa are very much part of the Midwest. In fact, if I had to pick one single state that is without question, undeniably, part of the Midwest, it would be Iowa. It's very agricultural, and it's a perfect geographic fit, being too far north to have cultural ties to the south, and situated distinctly west of East and east of West.

I was thinking the same thing. That said, I like the idea of major rivers as boundaries. I might go with the Missouri River as the western boundary instead of the Mississippi.

Or, to echo a sentiment from further upthread, any state that had a Big Ten school prior to the 1990s.

hbelkins

The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

webny99

Quote from: 1 on September 26, 2018, 08:47:12 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 08:39:41 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2018, 08:48:03 PM
Plenty of posts from the IL/IN area stating KC should be part of the Midwest, but the rest of Kansas shouldn't.
Yikes. If anything, I would have that reversed. Anything with ties to Missouri is very distinctly un-Midwestern, being a much better fit with the Mid-South/south in general.
Meanwhile, I agree that Kansas, and to a lesser extent Oklahoma, are very much a part of the Midwest. Excluding some of the most centrally-located and flattest states in the nation from one's definition of Midwest seems a bit foolish - aren't flat and central the geographic qualifiers?
It's impossible to include Oklahoma but exclude Missouri.

Not impossible; it just creates a Midwest region with a rather interesting shape. Missouri (and Southern IL for that matter) end up looking like a peninsula of the South jutting into the Midwest, which I think has merit.
Oklahoma, at least IMO, has more Midwestern characteristics than Missouri, although the further north you go in Missouri, the more Midwestern it gets. Anything south of I-44, in particular, has more in common with the South.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.

Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.

kphoger

Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.

Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.

And the meth-head rednecks.

(halfway serious)
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

webny99

Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
And the meth-head rednecks.
(halfway serious)

Only halfway serious, because the real Midwest has some of those too :-D

kphoger

Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 02:44:41 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
Quote from: webny99 on September 26, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.
Don't forget the accent. And the terrain.
And the meth-head rednecks.
(halfway serious)

Only halfway serious, because the real Midwest has some of those too :-D

But still serious because of the sheer number of drug addicts I've known from the Ozarks.  A former co-worker of mine used to live in Springfield, and he noticed it too.  He had taken to calling Springfield "Meth Town USA".  The ones I've known (and am related to) are from the Branson area.

On the redneck side of it...  southern Missouri has that in spades.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

TheHighwayMan3561

Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

jakeroot

I think meth is a serious problem across the country, not at all exclusive to any one part of the country. I've known a remarkable number of people here in the Pacific Northwest who have done meth, or were addicted.

tchafe1978

So much debate about trivial matters. Anyway, I've always considered the Midwest to be Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa, and Minnesota. The Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, and Oklahoma have always been the Plains States. Missouri is kind of on an island by itself, not really Midwest, or South, or Plains.

kphoger

In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south.  The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

SSOWorld

Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 04:38:02 PM
In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south.  The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

webny99

#113
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 04:38:02 PM
In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south.  The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.

Agreed. North of I-70 has more in common with the Midwest, while South of I-44 is basically an extension of the South.
In between I-70 and I-44 is a bit of a gray zone - figuratively, not literally - but if I had to pick one as the hard line, I'd gravitate towards I-44.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 26, 2018, 03:50:36 PM
Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

TXtoNJ

Quote from: webny99 on September 27, 2018, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 26, 2018, 04:38:02 PM
In my mind, Missouri is divided between the Midwest and the Mid-south.  The southern part of the state really does resemble Arkansas.

Agreed. North of I-70 has more in common with the Midwest, while South of I-44 is basically an extension of the South.
In between I-70 and I-44 is a bit of a gray zone - figuratively, not literally - but if I had to pick one as the hard line, I'd gravitate towards I-44.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 26, 2018, 03:50:36 PM
Some parts of Oklahoma may seem economically midwestern, but culturally I have seen nothing but South.

Now we get into the question of Southwest, as in Texas, or Deep South, as in Arkansas. Oklahoma shares a border with both.

Having lived in both TX and OK, I can tell you - Oklahoma depends on which part of the state you're in. The Southeast is called "Little Dixie" and is very much like East Texas and Northern Louisiana in character. The rest of Eastern Oklahoma is called "Green Country" and functions as an extension of the Ozarks.

The center of the state is most like North Texas, unless you're north of a line running from about Elk City diagonally through Bartlesville and Miami, where the subtropical climate ends and it becomes more continental like Kansas.

The west of the state is the most like the Southwest, but it is nevertheless mostly Plains in character. Everywhere north and west of Woodward is High Plains, particularly in the Panhandle.

kphoger

I also struggle with where to draw the line between Fargo, ND (obviously the Midwest) and Glacier National Park, MT (obviously not).
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Brandon

Quote from: kphoger on September 27, 2018, 10:03:11 AM
I also struggle with where to draw the line between Fargo, ND (obviously the Midwest) and Glacier National Park, MT (obviously not).

100th Meridian works just fine, IMHO.

Quote from: hbelkins on September 26, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
The university's presence in the Southeastern Conference notwithstanding, to me there is nothing "southern" about Missouri.

Missouri, to an Upper Midwesterner's point of view is very much southern south of US-50.  North of US-50, it might was well be southern Iowa.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

hbelkins

Quote from: jakeroot on September 26, 2018, 04:28:05 PM
I think meth is a serious problem across the country, not at all exclusive to any one part of the country. I've known a remarkable number of people here in the Pacific Northwest who have done meth, or were addicted.

Meth actually made its way to the Appalachian Mountains by way of the Midwest. I attended a seminar about 15 years ago where the spread of meth from west to east was discussed. It was popular in the agricultural states of the Midwest because of the easy availability of anhydrous ammonia, one of the main ingredients. Meth makers were stealing the anhydrous ammonia used for fertilizer.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

ce929wax

In regards to Missouri, my dealings have been south of I-44.  I consider St. Louis to be the Midwest, but consider places like Springfield to be the south.  I also consider the bootheel to be the south because I saw many cotton farms along I-55.  The only kind of "midwestern" quality the bootheel had was where you would begin to see Amoco stations on I-55 when they existed.  However, Amoco was also in the South (at least the southeast), so there is that.

As for Oklahoma, my experience has been that Eastern Oklahoma has a lot of the same qualities as Arkansas and Western Oklahoma has a lot of the same qualities as Texas and even New Mexico in the panhandle.  I would consider Eastern Oklahoma to be the south and Western Oklahoma to be the southwest.

kphoger

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

hotdogPi

I would like to see more detailed info for Wyoming: "I'm in Cheyenne, how different is that from western Nebraska" vs. "I don't know what the Midwest is".
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Big John

Oklahoma surprises me, I consider it too far south to be "midwest".

kphoger

Quote from: Big John on October 19, 2023, 12:32:31 PM
Oklahoma surprises me, I consider it too far south to be "midwest".

Meanwhile, I, having lived in a neighboring state most of my life and having lived less than an hour from the Oklahoma state line for the last 15 years, have been surprised how many people in Oklahoma don't consider it to be part of the Midwest.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

JayhawkCO

I saw this the other day and almost posted it. I don't know where the 42% of Coloradoans who say it's the Midwest are. Sure, the eastern plains I could get behind, but that sure as hell isn't 42% of the population.

kphoger

Quote from: JayhawkCO on October 19, 2023, 01:05:52 PM
I don't know where the 42% of Coloradoans who say it's the Midwest are. Sure, the eastern plains I could get behind, but that sure as hell isn't 42% of the population.

According to the site, "mostly on the Eastern slope and closer to the Midwest".

Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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