How do you define the Midwest?

[thspfc]

ND, SD, NE, KS, IA, MO, MN, WI, IL, IN, MI, OH. The former six are Great Plains and the latter six are Great Lakes.

Of those, the only states I feel "should" be broken up are MO and OH - southeast MO seems more southern and southeast OH seems more Appalachian. But both those states are majority Midwestern, so for the sake of simplicity, I consider them Midwestern.

Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3

Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?

[flan]

In elementary school social studies in Grand Forks, ND, we were taught that North Dakota is a part of the Midwest. I didn't hear about the Plains states being a separate region until well after moving to the Twin Cities, and I still don't think the Plains states are really worthy of being a separate region.

[thspfc]

To me, the biggest surprise is Ohio and Michigan both at less than 90%.

The below point is one reason why I'm not particularly surprised by Ohio and Michigan, though I see it as a confluence of several factors:

RE: Ohio, Michigan, and the slightly lower numbers in WI/IL than their western neighbors, makes me wonder if some feel the Great Lakes is a stronger unique subregion than I would have thought.

They are also the two easternmost states that could be considered "Midwest", so some residents may see their state as too far east to be part of the Midwest.

Michigan specifically is comprised of two peninsulas geographically isolated from the rest of the Midwest and surrounded by three Great Lakes, so it makes sense that the Great Lakes are a much stronger part of the state's identity than the Midwest. And while farming does occur in Michigan, it's not as fertile as other parts of the Midwest nor part of the traditional "Corn Belt", so farming is more specialized in areas such as fruit and dairy, and the state's economy is less agriculture-dependent than other Midwestern states overall. Northern Michigan also frankly doesn't feel Midwestern at all. It has much more in common with parts of Ontario and northern New York than it does with Illinois or Iowa - it's no coincidence that I've compared I-75 north of Flint to I-81 north of Syracuse.

But northern MI is most similar to northern WI and MN. Ontario is more hilly and rocky (and also on a completely different level of "wilderness" than the upper Midwest is).

Never been to upstate NY, but I've confused Michigan, and even Wisconsin, for New York and vice versa on Geoguessr. So I agree there, but I still think MI has more in common with fellow Midwestern states than anywhere else. My guess as to why they don't identify as 100% Midwestern is Yoopers who get a superiority complex from the fact that they haven't been to a city of more than 50,000 people in a decade.

[vdeane]

The four western ones surprise me.  ID doesn't make a lick of sense, but then again, little does in ID (still, having lived there, I didn't hear anyone say they were from the Midwest).  MT, CO and WY are just weird.

I think it's interesting that they surveyed ID but not NY.  Have they never heard of Buffalo?  NYC is not all of NY.

[webny99]

The four western ones surprise me.  ID doesn't make a lick of sense, but then again, little does in ID (still, having lived there, I didn't hear anyone say they were from the Midwest).  MT, CO and WY are just weird.

I think it's interesting that they surveyed ID but not NY.  Have they never heard of Buffalo?  NYC is not all of NY.

I agree, but if their formula was "percentage of state's population that would laugh at this question < 50%", then NY would be out. Anyone north/west of I-88 would totally understand why NY would be included, but the rest of the state wouldn't, and that's unfortunately the large majority of the state's population. They also probably wanted to exclude states that touch either coast because of the nature of the term Midwest.

[epzik8]

The Pennsylvanians who consider themselves Midwestern probably live near Pittsburgh (or anywhere in SWPA) or in Lancaster County.

[index]

My personal definition:

[JayhawkCO]

My personal definition:

I'm down with most of this. I think the yellow region is maybe missing a few counties in Montana, and I think the Core would absorb a little bit more of the "Midwestern and Western", but I largely agree with your map. Well done.

[Scott5114]

Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3

Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?

There is a decent amount of commonality between Tulsa and NWA, but I would say if you put straight undiluted Arkansas in the equation you'd end up with something that was a bit too Southern to be Oklahoma as a whole. Granted, this differs depending on where in the state you are—a friend of mine grew up in Stigler and she did all of her big-city stuff in Fort Smith, so that  part of the state would naturally have more Arkansas influence than the rest.

Put another way, Oklahoma is Southern in the "eats too much fried food" and "college football is a way of life" ways, but not really Southern in the "southern belle" and "NASCAR" and "weird Southern social structure" way, if that makes sense.

[Flint1979]

We indeed consider Michigan to be in the Midwest. Michigan and Wisconsin are a lot alike and Minnesota is as well, those states are definitely in the Midwest.

[webny99]

...
Michigan specifically is comprised of two peninsulas geographically isolated from the rest of the Midwest and surrounded by three Great Lakes, so it makes sense that the Great Lakes are a much stronger part of the state's identity than the Midwest. And while farming does occur in Michigan, it's not as fertile as other parts of the Midwest nor part of the traditional "Corn Belt", so farming is more specialized in areas such as fruit and dairy, and the state's economy is less agriculture-dependent than other Midwestern states overall. Northern Michigan also frankly doesn't feel Midwestern at all. It has much more in common with parts of Ontario and northern New York than it does with Illinois or Iowa - it's no coincidence that I've compared I-75 north of Flint to I-81 north of Syracuse.

But northern MI is most similar to northern WI and MN. Ontario is more hilly and rocky (and also on a completely different level of "wilderness" than the upper Midwest is).

Yes, but the parts of northern WI and MN that are similar to northern MI aren't as dominant in their respective states. Also Milwaukee and the Twin Cities are more "midwestern" than Detroit, both geographically and culturally.

The comparison to Ontario is also nuanced. Yes, there are parts of Ontario that are on a different level of "wilderness" - especially inland north of Sudbury along the ON 11 corridor, but there are also parts that are quite comparable - notably between Toronto and Ottawa, and north of Toronto along the Georgian Bay.

Never been to upstate NY, but I've confused Michigan, and even Wisconsin, for New York and vice versa on Geoguessr. So I agree there, but I still think MI has more in common with fellow Midwestern states than anywhere else. My guess as to why they don't identify as 100% Midwestern is Yoopers who get a superiority complex from the fact that they haven't been to a city of more than 50,000 people in a decade.

The UP is no doubt a big factor, as it is the most remote and least-Midwestern part of the state, but the state's geography (two peninsulas surrounded by lakes that somewhat isolate it from the rest of the Midwest) make it somewhat distinct - it is the Great Lakes state, after all. I think of it as somewhat similar to how Buffalo prefers to be labeled "Western NY" rather than the generic "Upstate NY" because Western NY invokes their local pride and is more specific to them. Even though most people around the country see Western NY as a sub-region of Upstate NY, many locals see it as its own separate region, and I can see that same dynamic going on with the Great Lakes and the Midwest.

[webny99]

Oklahoma surprises me, I consider it too far south to be "midwest".

Meanwhile, I, having lived in a neighboring state most of my life and having lived less than an hour from the Oklahoma state line for the last 15 years, have been surprised how many people in Oklahoma don't consider it to be part of the Midwest.

I can't explain why, but I also tend to lump Oklahoma with Texas rather than as part of the Midwest. Maybe because that's what the Census Bureau does. Including Oklahoma in the Midwest also raises the question of what to do with the panhandles. Should Oklahoma's be lumped with Texas, in the South/southwest? Or should Texas' be lumped with Oklahoma, in the Midwest?

Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3

Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?

There is a decent amount of commonality between Tulsa and NWA, but I would say if you put straight undiluted Arkansas in the equation you'd end up with something that was a bit too Southern to be Oklahoma as a whole. Granted, this differs depending on where in the state you are—a friend of mine grew up in Stigler and she did all of her big-city stuff in Fort Smith, so that  part of the state would naturally have more Arkansas influence than the rest.

I like the idea of using Missouri instead of Arkansas to dilute the South part of the equation. Missouri is also a bit southern in some respects, but Arkansas is too close to a Deep South superlative.

[US 89]

Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3

Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?

There is a decent amount of commonality between Tulsa and NWA, but I would say if you put straight undiluted Arkansas in the equation you'd end up with something that was a bit too Southern to be Oklahoma as a whole. Granted, this differs depending on where in the state you are—a friend of mine grew up in Stigler and she did all of her big-city stuff in Fort Smith, so that  part of the state would naturally have more Arkansas influence than the rest.

Put another way, Oklahoma is Southern in the "eats too much fried food" and "college football is a way of life" ways, but not really Southern in the "southern belle" and "NASCAR" and "weird Southern social structure" way, if that makes sense.

College football is a huge part of life in the Midwest too. Ever hear of the Big Ten?

I will say that driving west on I-40, there was a definite cultural shift that I observed driving west across Arkansas and Oklahoma. Memphis and Little Rock are solidly southern, but there was definitely something different about Fort Smith when I drove through that felt more...western, I guess? Oklahoma City is basically 40% Midwest, 40% Texas, and 20% West. As you go west on 40, the Midwest contribution goes down and the West and Texas contributions goes up.

[MikieTimT]

Oklahoma = (What Texas is + what Kansas is + what Missouri is) / 3

Having not been to Oklahoma, hearing it described this way is clever and aligns with what I thought. Though I'm a bit surpised it's more similar to Missouri than Arkansas, considering the length of their respective borders?

There is a decent amount of commonality between Tulsa and NWA, but I would say if you put straight undiluted Arkansas in the equation you'd end up with something that was a bit too Southern to be Oklahoma as a whole. Granted, this differs depending on where in the state you are—a friend of mine grew up in Stigler and she did all of her big-city stuff in Fort Smith, so that  part of the state would naturally have more Arkansas influence than the rest.

Put another way, Oklahoma is Southern in the "eats too much fried food" and "college football is a way of life" ways, but not really Southern in the "southern belle" and "NASCAR" and "weird Southern social structure" way, if that makes sense.

College football is a huge part of life in the Midwest too. Ever hear of the Big Ten?

I will say that driving west on I-40, there was a definite cultural shift that I observed driving west across Arkansas and Oklahoma. Memphis and Little Rock are solidly southern, but there was definitely something different about Fort Smith when I drove through that felt more...western, I guess? Oklahoma City is basically 40% Midwest, 40% Texas, and 20% West. As you go west on 40, the Midwest contribution goes down and the West and Texas contributions goes up.

Arkansas, like myself, is tough to throw into a single bucket.  It was a western frontier (Ft. Smith, Siloam Springs, Texarkana) for long enough to have had those rougher influences when the state was new and the agricultural part of the state was the "civilized" part.  The mountainous parts were islands that resisted outside influence much longer than the western frontier border lasted.  If you had to split Arkansas into 2 regions only, US-67 would be the dividing transitional line, naturally due to terrain, but also culture.  Everything north and west of US-67 was undeveloped wasteland back when agriculture was almost the entire economy of the state.  When automation occurred in the agricultural sector, and the advent of rural electrification happened along with it all of the early to mid twentieth century dam building by the US Army Corps of Engineers for flood control and hydropower, the northwestern half of the state started coming into its own economically, and the southeastern half automated away their need for black and poor white labor, depressing that part of the state economically except for the landowners who tended to have giant tracts nearly from the start of statehood.  Much of the state east and south of US-67 is owned by corporations, either agricultural or timber.  Geography very much determined when portions of the state developed, and who immigrated into it to develop it.

NWA contains relatively few natives, but before the Corps lakes like Table Rock and especially Beaver Lake, it couldn't support a very large population due to a lack of water as it's tougher drilling water wells into rock than it is sand or soil, and the river valley along the White River are very much too steep and boxed in to support a large population until you get to Batesville.  That late stage development of the area means that the mobility brought on by service jobs dependant on Internet access benefit the movement of people who have the means to do so, which means that NWA has a lot more immigrants from other states or nations than just about the rest of the state combined, which means that the rest of Arkansas almost doesn't claim NWA except as Razorback fans, and I would say that NWA doesn't claim the rest of Arkansas, reciprocally.  I've lived in western Arkansas my whole life but traveled pretty much the entire nation except New England.  Don't really see many other places that hold a draw for me in comparison.  But Arkansas south and east of US-67 has almost nothing in common with this part of the state other than showing up just as commonly in the Arkansas State Police YouTube channels running from the ASP and getting PIT'd out and arrested.

NWA feels almost midwestern in comparison with Tulsa and KC influencing it more than Little Rock.  Probably why Little Rock keeps 80% of ARDOT funds to itself and it's taking way too long to finish portions of I-49.

[kphoger]

Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.

And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".

A native will tell you Arkansas is definitively southern.

Arkansas ... is tough to throw into a single bucket ... NWA feels almost midwestern in comparison with Tulsa and KC influencing it more than Little Rock.

Are you an Arkansas native? 

[JayhawkCO]

Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.

And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".

And St. Louis is obviously "Gateway to the West".

I don't think everything west of those cities is THE West.

[GaryV]

The Wolverines are the "Champions of the West". At least they were back in 1898 when the song was written.

[minneha]

The concept of what "feels" Midwestern is an interesting one. What are some of the defining cultural characteristics of areas that feel Midwestern?

[kphoger]

The concept of what "feels" Midwestern is an interesting one. What are some of the defining cultural characteristics of areas that feel Midwestern?

Some things for me...  Mostly flat terrain dominated by quarter-section farming, historical settlement by those of central and northern European descent, anti-slavery or slavery-neutral history, dominance of the casserole.  I don't know, really, I've never tried to itemize these things before.

[webny99]

Meanwhile, Cincinnati, and much of southern Ohio, for that matter - hello, Hocking Hills - feels more southern than midwestern and could pass for Kentucky or West Virginia but is worlds away from the Great Plains.

And yet Cincinnati is the "queen city of the west".

Was... almost 200 years ago.

[webny99]

The concept of what "feels" Midwestern is an interesting one. What are some of the defining cultural characteristics of areas that feel Midwestern?

Some things for me...  Mostly flat terrain dominated by quarter-section farming, historical settlement by those of central and northern European descent, anti-slavery or slavery-neutral history, dominance of the casserole.  I don't know, really, I've never tried to itemize these things before.

When you put it like that, 85% and 78% for Michigan and Ohio respectively seems too high.





I also realized that in this very thread, back in 2018, I had two takes that turned out to be home runs, at least according to the poll we've been discussing:

In fact, if I had to pick one single state that is without question, undeniably, part of the Midwest, it would be Iowa. It's very agricultural, and it's a perfect geographic fit ...

96.7% of Iowans said they live in the Midwest, the greatest percentage of any state.

And I'd include the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas before I'd include Ohio, so there's that.

Between 91% and 94% of respondents in the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas said they live in the Midwest, while only 78.2% of Ohioans said they live in the Midwest.

[kphoger]

When you put it like that, 85% and 78% for Michigan and Ohio respectively seems too high.

Not surprising, considering my personal history.  I've never been to Ohio (other than through the very southern parts on Amtrak), and the only two nights I've spent in Michigan were during the same hitchhiking trip.  Meanwhile, I've lived my whole life in Illinois and Kansas.

Honestly, I'm curious to know if y'all consider the UP to be part of the Midwest.  Or is it just the Mitten?

[JayhawkCO]

My definition of the Midwest:

Relatively flat topography
Neutral American accent with a trend towards elongated vowels
Agriculture dominates rural areas
As kphoger said, culinary traditions include things like casserole, jello/fruit salad, ranch/French dressing, puppy chow
Lack of diversity (largely Caucasian) in rural areas
Small towns with lots of brick buildings on the main street
General friendliness and willingness to talk to anyone at anytime about any topic
Delayed goodbyes when leaving events
The use of the word "Ope"
Higher incidence of Pop vs. Soda


I'm sure I could come up with more.

[kphoger]

Delayed goodbyes when leaving events

This ritual begins by one party slapping his thighs and exclaiming, "Welp! ..."  Standing up from the couch at that point may promptly ensue—but not necessarily—though sitting back down again is still likely.

[Scott5114]

The phrase "Guess I'd better get out of your hair" usually figures into the conversation, too.