Is there a way to turn off notifications/unsubscribe from threads? There's a couple I posted in a while ago but haven't posted/read them since mainly due to relevancy. Was curious if there was a function
Unsubscribing can be done, but since I'm not subscribed to any, I don't know how.
Removing it from Recent Unread Topics cannot be done unless you delete all your posts in that thread.
Quote from: 1 on October 15, 2018, 09:29:50 AMRemoving it from Recent Unread Topics cannot be done unless you delete all your posts in that thread.
Does deleting all of one's own posts actually work?
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 15, 2018, 12:10:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 15, 2018, 09:29:50 AMRemoving it from Recent Unread Topics cannot be done unless you delete all your posts in that thread.
Does deleting all of one's own posts actually work?
Yes. I've done it when I only had to delete one. If you have several posts, it still works if you delete all of them, but it causes more discontinuities in the flow of conversation.
Thanks for this--it is good to know this approach has been tested. My own solution, if I ever decide I absolutely need to unsubscribe from threads that are no longer of interest to me, will probably be to write a wget wrapper script that pulls "Unread replies," strips out links to threads that are on an unsubscribe list, and loads the modified HTML file in the browser. (While it would be nice to have this functionality built directly into the UI, I am increasingly coming to the view that anything that requires the moderators or board administrators to take action amounts to ceding control. This also applies to moderating actions, which I feel have been a bit too heavy-handed and capricious as of late.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 15, 2018, 01:31:05 PM
Thanks for this--it is good to know this approach has been tested. My own solution, if I ever decide I absolutely need to unsubscribe from threads that are no longer of interest to me, will probably be to write a wget wrapper script that pulls "Unread replies," strips out links to threads that are on an unsubscribe list, and loads the modified HTML file in the browser. (While it would be nice to have this functionality built directly into the UI, I am increasingly coming to the view that anything that requires the moderators or board administrators to take action amounts to ceding control. This also applies to moderating actions, which I feel have been a bit too heavy-handed and capricious as of late.)
I readily admit to skimming some of the boards, and not reading some of them, but what prompts your comment on moderation? Other than trying to steer the NY limousine thread back on track after it got temporarily derailed by a discussion of hotel owners' nationality, I haven't noticed anything.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 16, 2018, 03:53:39 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 15, 2018, 01:31:05 PM
Thanks for this--it is good to know this approach has been tested. My own solution, if I ever decide I absolutely need to unsubscribe from threads that are no longer of interest to me, will probably be to write a wget wrapper script that pulls "Unread replies," strips out links to threads that are on an unsubscribe list, and loads the modified HTML file in the browser. (While it would be nice to have this functionality built directly into the UI, I am increasingly coming to the view that anything that requires the moderators or board administrators to take action amounts to ceding control. This also applies to moderating actions, which I feel have been a bit too heavy-handed and capricious as of late.)
I readily admit to skimming some of the boards, and not reading some of them, but what prompts your comment on moderation? Other than trying to steer the NY limousine thread back on track after it got temporarily derailed by a discussion of hotel owners' nationality, I haven't noticed anything.
Dare I say it? ... It looks like US71 is no longer a moderator, but I'm not sure if the two things are related.
Quote from: 1 on October 15, 2018, 12:33:05 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 15, 2018, 12:10:32 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 15, 2018, 09:29:50 AMRemoving it from Recent Unread Topics cannot be done unless you delete all your posts in that thread.
Does deleting all of one's own posts actually work?
Yes. I've done it when I only had to delete one. If you have several posts, it still works if you delete all of them, but it causes more discontinuities in the flow of conversation.
I did that once, but when I see New Replies to my posts in thread I'm no longer interested in, I mark them as all read.
I come from an online background posting in forums that sometimes have interesting digressions that make it worth continuing to read a thread over multiple pages, but a lot of threads here seems to be a question by the OP (I learned the lingo here!) followed by answers by various other members.
To name an example, because it is current today. There's the "how many states have you been to thread." It'd be more interesting to me if there were more comments about how mobile we are as forum members and people in general. I think webny99 mention something like that in this, or a previous similar thread (maybe it was a thread asking people how many places they've lived,) but I don't think that convo went anywhere.
I've been to quite a few states, but a lot of that was in my Army days. I think military and academics travel more often than most people. Uncle Sam likes to transfer people around an grad students often wind up going to schools in 3 or more states; getting the BA at one school and their other degrees elsewhere.
Deleting all posts has not worked for me. I tried doing that in several of the 1-2-3 threads, and the North Carolina thread (no offence NC), but they still show up in the new reply section. I'd rather they only appeared in the unread posts section.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 16, 2018, 03:53:39 PMI readily admit to skimming some of the boards, and not reading some of them, but what prompts your comment on moderation? Other than trying to steer the NY limousine thread back on track after it got temporarily derailed by a discussion of hotel owners' nationality, I haven't noticed anything.
I have a similar reading pattern and my feeling is based more on things I have noticed over the past few months than on any one specific incident. I have come to feel that the moderators are too lock-happy, too ready to deal with problematic posts by hiding or deleting them in a way that amounts to rewriting history, and not responsive to sincerely expressed concerns about squelched discussion.
To cite a few examples:
* Schoharie limo crash thread--a temporary lock to cool down discussion was the right call, but deleting the derogatory comments about South Asian motel owners looked like an attempt to cover up misbehavior by a moderator.
* CONELRAD thread--locked, notwithstanding ongoing policy-oriented discussion over whether the public interest was best served by labeling the top-level alert a "Presidential" alert in times when the sitting President is widely disliked by a large share of the electorate.
* Forum stats thread (the last one)--there was moderator involvement and I laid out a case for unhiding the forum stats page and reopening discussion of forum stats, for the purposes of analysis rather than as an implicit scoring mechanism. I felt some of the moderators participating might be coming around to my view, but as soon as Webny99 jumped in and began making some of the same arguments I did, I could see attitudes harden almost in real time.
In the past I have suggested that over time, the forum should transition to democratic governance mechanisms, including open election of moderators. While this has never been explicitly ruled out, the answer has invariably been "He who has the gold makes the rules," i.e., it is up to Alex as forum owner. I think failure to make progress on governance has led to the forum continuing to be run by a comfortable clique, where certain new members are brought in fairly early and experience rapid progression in responsibility, while others--including long-time members with relevant skills and experience--are left out. I have come to think this has led to individuals being tapped to serve as moderators even when they didn't really want to but also didn't feel comfortable saying No.
Edit:
Quote from: jon daly on October 16, 2018, 06:44:25 PMI come from an online background posting in forums that sometimes have interesting digressions that make it worth continuing to read a thread over multiple pages, but a lot of threads here seems to be a question by the OP (I learned the lingo here!) followed by answers by various other members.
To name an example, because it is current today. There's the "how many states have you been to thread." It'd be more interesting to me if there were more comments about how mobile we are as forum members and people in general. I think webny99 mention something like that in this, or a previous similar thread (maybe it was a thread asking people how many places they've lived,) but I don't think that convo went anywhere.
In this community this problem goes back all the way to MTR days. There has always been a certain share of threads that have been about round-robin show-and-tell with no real analysis or content offered to show why the activities of B, C, D, E, . . . should be of interest to A, or why A's should be of interest to B, C, D, E and so on. These can very rapidly degenerate into point-scoring or one-upmanship. I try to limit my participation in such threads because I find I later regret it when they keep coming up in "Unread replies."
Quote from: jon daly on October 16, 2018, 06:44:25 PMI've been to quite a few states, but a lot of that was in my Army days. I think military and academics travel more often than most people. Uncle Sam likes to transfer people around an grad students often wind up going to schools in 3 or more states; getting the BA at one school and their other degrees elsewhere.
Ability to travel is also a function of status markers like income and leisure. This is one reason I try to be restrained in what I post about my own travels, not just here but also on Facebook, generally by giving myself permission to describe only specific trips that are weekend trips, plausibly fit within the two-week vacation window most Americans typically get, or reflect expanded opportunities to travel in connection with graduate school. I try to steer between the opposite extremes of poor-mouthing and making an open display of privilege.
Quote
* Schoharie limo crash thread--a temporary lock to cool down discussion was the right call, but deleting the derogatory comments about South Asian motel owners looked like an attempt to cover up misbehavior by a moderator.
US 71 is no longer a moderator. Until a few months ago, I thought he was the best moderator. He should still have the ability to warn/ban (note: I have classified information).
Except for one partisan moderator (not naming who), I feel like the mods have been doing fine.
----
I was considering running for Fictional Highways moderator, but I don't think I need the job. It would just be extra work, and I would be afraid of making mistakes.
I imagine many of the post hidings/deletions are so people coming across the thread later don't misinterpret those posts as an example of acceptable conduct.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 11:45:54 AM
* CONELRAD thread--locked, notwithstanding ongoing policy-oriented discussion over whether the public interest was best served by labeling the top-level alert a "Presidential" alert in times when the sitting President is widely disliked by a large share of the electorate.
That was probably it, actually. No politics unless it's road-related, and CONELRAD isn't road-related (incidentally, I didn't know it was called that until the thread here - I just through it was the "presidential alert").
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 11:45:54 AM
Quote from: jon daly on October 16, 2018, 06:44:25 PMI come from an online background posting in forums that sometimes have interesting digressions that make it worth continuing to read a thread over multiple pages, but a lot of threads here seems to be a question by the OP (I learned the lingo here!) followed by answers by various other members.
To name an example, because it is current today. There's the "how many states have you been to thread." It'd be more interesting to me if there were more comments about how mobile we are as forum members and people in general. I think webny99 mention something like that in this, or a previous similar thread (maybe it was a thread asking people how many places they've lived,) but I don't think that convo went anywhere.
In this community this problem goes back all the way to MTR days. There has always been a certain share of threads that have been about round-robin show-and-tell with no real analysis or content offered to show why the activities of B, C, D, E, . . . should be of interest to A, or why A's should be of interest to B, C, D, E and so on. These can very rapidly degenerate into point-scoring or one-upmanship. I try to limit my participation in such threads because I find I later regret it when they keep coming up in "Unread replies."
I've been known to follow those threads early, sometimes post an example or two, and then stop reading them if it becomes clear that they won't evolve into an interesting discussion (as they sometimes do but usually don't, or they might have snippets here or there).
Note: This subtopic should probably be split into its own thread or merged with an existing one about moderation.Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 11:45:54 AM
I have come to feel that the moderators are too lock-happy, too ready to deal with problematic posts by hiding or deleting them in a way that amounts to rewriting history, and not responsive to sincerely expressed concerns about squelched discussion.
I greatly favor temp-locking or perma-locking a thread over hiding or deleting posts/threads. IMHO, it can be useful to have historical record of what can happen on these boards. For example, if a thread gets dangerously close to the tipping point, then someone might want to link to an old locked thread and warn other members not to cross that same line again. Unless a post is potentially damaging to someone (incriminating), then I believe it should be left up for everyone to see. But I've got no problem in general with locking threads, nor with moderator
editing of individual posts to remove certain offensive bits–so long as the post is annotated to indicate what was done.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 11:45:54 AM
In the past I have suggested that over time, the forum should transition to democratic governance mechanisms, including open election of moderators. While this has never been explicitly ruled out, the answer has invariably been "He who has the gold makes the rules," i.e., it is up to Alex as forum owner. I think failure to make progress on governance has led to the forum continuing to be run by a comfortable clique...
I enjoy the stability of a non-elected board of moderators. If Alex has too much singular control, then maybe something like a triumvirate would be better. But I honestly don't think most members have any idea what computer skills, people skills, organizational skills, etc. different users have to either qualify or disqualify them from a position of leadership.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 11:45:54 AM
Ability to travel is also a function of status markers like income and leisure. This is one reason I try to be restrained in what I post about my own travels, not just here but also on Facebook, generally by giving myself permission to describe only specific trips that are weekend trips, plausibly fit within the two-week vacation window most Americans typically get, or reflect expanded opportunities to travel in connection with graduate school. I try to steer between the opposite extremes of poor-mouthing and making an open display of privilege.
It's also prudent not to post anywhere online that your house will be unoccupied for the next nine days. Best not to post pictures or commentaries until you get back home again.
Quote from: vdeane on October 17, 2018, 12:53:23 PM
(incidentally, I didn't know it was called that until the thread here - I just through it was the "presidential alert").
It isn't. CONELRAD ended in the 1960s. The OP, in fact, stated "There will be a CONELRAD-
type test"–not that it was actually CONELRAD.
Also, if the CONELRAD thread was locked, then it appears to have been subsequently unlocked. I have the option to reply.
Quote from: vdeane on October 17, 2018, 12:53:23 PMI imagine many of the post hidings/deletions are so people coming across the thread later don't misinterpret those posts as an example of acceptable conduct.
While I understand that rationale, I think the underlying purpose is better served by leaving the posts in place with a clear signal that they attract sanction, such as a purple-text post indicating the thread is being locked temporarily or permanently and providing an explanation that tactfully but clearly delineates the unacceptable conduct. Simply making the offending text disappear is too reminiscent of the vanishing commissar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Yezhov).
Quote from: 1 on October 17, 2018, 12:03:08 PMUS 71 is no longer a moderator. Until a few months ago, I thought he was the best moderator. He should still have the ability to warn/ban (note: I have classified information).
It is always good to respect personnel confidentiality, and the best way to keep a secret is to avoid putting oneself in a position where it is known that one has access to it.
All of us have lives apart from the forum, and I have had experience with cases where moderators or others with management responsibilities had to resign as a result of the emotional overhead of dealing with family events such as divorce, the death of a treasured relative, etc. Generally they came back later and did a much better job.
Quote from: 1 on October 17, 2018, 12:03:08 PMI was considering running for Fictional Highways moderator, but I don't think I need the job. It would just be extra work, and I would be afraid of making mistakes.
My understanding is that on this forum, one does not "run" for moderator positions as such. One is simply tapped to serve and one's chances of being so chosen go down if one expresses any interest in the position.
If moderators were chosen through an open process and had to run for election at regular intervals, I would be interested in serving and would mount a candidacy if, during the election cycle in question, I felt I had the capacity to serve if elected. I do have experience serving as an elected moderator on another roads-related forum and I have found that even-handedness, empathy, and a preference for trying minimum interventions first are key qualities in a successful moderator. But yes, serving as a moderator consumes time, and in my experience the bulk of the time is spent coordinating response to threads that "go hot" rather than the actual mechanics of carrying out police action when it is required.
As regards US 71's case, I do not think I give away anything that was not said in public if I mention that it is my understanding he did not seek appointment as a moderator and agreed to become one only when another abruptly resigned.
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2018, 01:19:42 PMI greatly favor temp-locking or perma-locking a thread over hiding or deleting posts/threads. IMHO, it can be useful to have historical record of what can happen on these boards. For example, if a thread gets dangerously close to the tipping point, then someone might want to link to an old locked thread and warn other members not to cross that same line again. Unless a post is potentially damaging to someone (incriminating), then I believe it should be left up for everyone to see. But I've got no problem in general with locking threads, nor with moderator editing of individual posts to remove certain offensive bits–so long as the post is annotated to indicate what was done.
Yes--this is a nice succinct summary of my own views about moderation. On the board I managed, we had a hiding area and we normally moved threads or individual posts there only if they contained admissions of criminal conduct (e.g., "What's the fuss with cocaine? I like a pinch of the white stuff up my nose every now and then") or could create legal liability for the forum (generally in connection with copyright issues). We did find post editing was problematic because people tend to have a strong emotional response to words being put in their mouths, so to speak, as we have seen here with the controversies over post merges.
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2018, 01:19:42 PMI enjoy the stability of a non-elected board of moderators. If Alex has too much singular control, then maybe something like a triumvirate would be better. But I honestly don't think most members have any idea what computer skills, people skills, organizational skills, etc. different users have to either qualify or disqualify them from a position of leadership.
In practice, turnover is about the same with annually elected moderators. You have people serving multiple consecutive terms, others serving one term and coming back years later to serve another, etc. What you do tend to have less of is people sticking around when they don't really want to, because the end of each election cycle furnishes a convenient opportunity to call it a day.
For technical skillsets, there is a fairly deep gap between the skills required to be a successful moderator and the skills needed to mind the "boiler room"--keep the forum online, follow a structured upgrade path, evaluate and implement any proposed mods, and avoid data loss. On the forum I managed, we dealt with this by annually electing not just moderators, but also a figurehead with reserve powers to appoint programmers to keep the site running. Programmers agreed to serve on an informal understanding that they would stay in role until replaced (across multiple annual terms if necessary) and that the figurehead would seek to maintain a bench of possible replacements, not just to allow programmers to "retire" but also to split transiently heavier loads among multiple programmers.
As for communicating the skill and time requirements to prospective candidates, retiring incumbents often did this as part of the elections process. Another part was canvassing, where each candidate supplied a manifesto giving basic particulars such as screen name, real-world name, length of time on the forum, and a paragraph or two stating his or her proposed approach if elected; then members would ask the candidates questions on a canvassing board that was normally kept hidden but exposed in the run-up to each election.
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2018, 01:19:42 PMAlso, if the CONELRAD thread was locked, then it appears to have been subsequently unlocked. I have the option to reply.
So do I (just checked). I don't recall that the locking was accompanied by a purple-text explanation.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 11:45:54 AM
* Forum stats thread (the last one)--there was moderator involvement and I laid out a case for unhiding the forum stats page and reopening discussion of forum stats, for the purposes of analysis rather than as an implicit scoring mechanism. I felt some of the moderators participating might be coming around to my view, but as soon as Webny99 jumped in and began making some of the same arguments I did, I could see attitudes harden almost in real time.
I have nothing to add to this, other than:
(a) to apologize for my involvement,
(b) to note that this is well-put and I fully agree, and
(c) to thank you for being free to share your (well-founded) beliefs, regardless of what the powers that be may think.
BTW, not long after I mentioned the states thread kphoger made a wry quip about Ice Road Truck in Nunavut in that thread that cracked me up. Sometimes it pays to keep following threads.
Quote from: 1 on October 17, 2018, 12:03:08 PM
Quote
* Schoharie limo crash thread--a temporary lock to cool down discussion was the right call, but deleting the derogatory comments about South Asian motel owners looked like an attempt to cover up misbehavior by a moderator.
US 71 is no longer a moderator. Until a few months ago, I thought he was the best moderator. He should still have the ability to warn/ban (note: I have classified information).
Except for one partisan moderator (not naming who), I feel like the mods have been doing fine.
----
I was considering running for Fictional Highways moderator, but I don't think I need the job. It would just be extra work, and I would be afraid of making mistakes.
As a former admin and someone who seems to always have various nonstandard moderator labels attached (like right now I show up as Global Mod but I'm not), I would be interested in what you think and why. US 71 was definitely the most active moderator in terms of closing threads and deleting offensive material. I try to manage the worst offenses either in terms of misquoting, broken links, or actual offensive content, but my philosophy has evolved to minimizing the impact on removing material only to where arguments are pointlessly going back and forth off-topic.
Quote from: Alps on October 17, 2018, 06:23:27 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 17, 2018, 12:03:08 PM
Quote
* Schoharie limo crash thread--a temporary lock to cool down discussion was the right call, but deleting the derogatory comments about South Asian motel owners looked like an attempt to cover up misbehavior by a moderator.
US 71 is no longer a moderator. Until a few months ago, I thought he was the best moderator. He should still have the ability to warn/ban (note: I have classified information).
Except for one partisan moderator (not naming who), I feel like the mods have been doing fine.
----
I was considering running for Fictional Highways moderator, but I don't think I need the job. It would just be extra work, and I would be afraid of making mistakes.
As a former admin and someone who seems to always have various nonstandard moderator labels attached (like right now I show up as Global Mod but I'm not), I would be interested in what you think and why. US 71 was definitely the most active moderator in terms of closing threads and deleting offensive material. I try to manage the worst offenses either in terms of misquoting, broken links, or actual offensive content, but my philosophy has evolved to minimizing the impact on removing material only to where arguments are pointlessly going back and forth off-topic.
US 71 was definitely an active moderator, and I don't think he should have lost his powers. He was usually the fastest one to catch Marf socks, and I don't remember him locking any threads prematurely. This "scandal" will probably be forgotten in a few weeks; it happens to everyone several times per year, and the "scandal" had nothing to do with use of moderator powers (SSOWorld was the one that used them, and he handled it perfectly).
SSOWorld is similar to US 71, but not quite as active. I prefer SSOWorld's approach of temporary locks, rather than US 71's approach of permanent locks.
You, rickmastfan67, and Scott5114 seem to fix quotes and move threads to the correct location much more often than locking threads or warning/banning, although rickmastfan67 was involved in the webny99/Marf incident.
Some of the moderators aren't active much. This isn't a problem, as there is no harm in someone remaining an admin if they're mostly inactive, while abuse of moderator power (which has only happened here with V'Ger, before my time) is much worse. I will say, however, that un1, who has not logged in since 2013, still claims he is a regional moderator (Canada and Off Topic) in his signature. That line should probably be removed, as it could cause confusion.
The recent 1-week tempban of NE2 worked well; he seems to have changed character for the better.
I was actually very active in the Marf incident - I was given more power to be reactive and deal with clones and registration for awhile.
QuoteThe recent 1-week tempban of NE2 worked well; he seems to have changed character for the better.
(https://i.imgur.com/mLNIjMj_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium)
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 11:45:54 AM
Quote from: jon daly on October 16, 2018, 06:44:25 PMI've been to quite a few states, but a lot of that was in my Army days. I think military and academics travel more often than most people. Uncle Sam likes to transfer people around an grad students often wind up going to schools in 3 or more states; getting the BA at one school and their other degrees elsewhere.
Ability to travel is also a function of status markers like income and leisure. This is one reason I try to be restrained in what I post about my own travels, not just here but also on Facebook, generally by giving myself permission to describe only specific trips that are weekend trips, plausibly fit within the two-week vacation window most Americans typically get, or reflect expanded opportunities to travel in connection with graduate school. I try to steer between the opposite extremes of poor-mouthing and making an open display of privilege.
That's true, but I think I misspoke. I was thinking more along the lines of relocation; especially for the
hoi polloi or slightly above. I think someone figured out most of the denizens at a baseball board I used to frequent lived within 20 miles of where they grew up and a lot of those guys were upper middle class and seemed to have a lot of free time at work to gab all day online. I met a lot of them in person at SABR (Society for American Baseball Research) Conventions back when I was single. FWIW, most of those were in states that I already visited, but I did go to Toronto, Ontario for one; thus netting my second Canadian Province.
Quote from: 1 on October 17, 2018, 07:12:39 PM
I don't remember [US71] locking any threads prematurely.
Generally speaking, I agree, although I'm still just a little bitter about this one (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10705.800), and I know plenty of others agree.
I've noticed that one person in particular has been a moderator in the past, was not for awhile and appears to be one again. Of course, this is the same person who threatened to kick me off this forum for a post on my own personal Facebook page, which he did not see because he is not a Facebook friend anymore and it's a rare instance when I post something viewable to the public. In fact, most my posts aren't even visible to all of my friends; I try to make use of the friends list feature as much as I can so those easily triggered may not see my political posts, non-roadgeeks aren't bothered by my pictures of sign goofs, etc.
Also, I will note that US 71 and I have had a whole lot of battles over the years on politics and current issues. However, I can't think of any instances where that may have factored into his moderation decisions where my content is concerned. I don't really have any issues with how he may have treated me.
I have, in the past, volunteered to be a moderator. I would still be willing to serve. I'm pretty sure I'm toxic, though. :bigass:
Ironically, I'm now attached to this thread, even though I don't give a damn about the moderation discussion.
As long as I'm locked in, I don't have any qualms about the current moderation. Although I agree with Mr Winkler about post deletion. Keeping old posts up, as an example of what's not allowed, is probably a superior option than deleting history.
I didn't see the posts in question, but I have seen deleted posts and keeping the thread open about as often as I have seen a permanent lock. I don't think I've seen a temp lock before.
Quote from: Takumi on October 18, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
I didn't see the posts in question, but I have seen deleted posts and keeping the thread open about as often as I have seen a permanent lock. I don't think I've seen a temp lock before.
As I assume you know, the thread in Off Topic about the fatal crash in Schoharie County was temp-locked. It's easy to forget now that it's back on the rails; not so much if it was still locked.
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2018, 08:09:02 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 18, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
I didn't see the posts in question, but I have seen deleted posts and keeping the thread open about as often as I have seen a permanent lock. I don't think I've seen a temp lock before.
As I assume you know, the thread in Off Topic about the fatal crash in Schoharie County was temp-locked. It's easy to forget now that it's back on the rails; not so much if it was still locked.
I've only read Abe's posts in there [the thread didn't interest me, but if I find a poster interesting, I sometimes go to their profile to see if they said anything of interest that I may've missed. (You'd think that adding someone as a buddy would make this process more user friendly, but it doesn't.)]
But I did notice that the CONELRAD thread was temporarily locked.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 15, 2018, 01:31:05 PM
While it would be nice to have this functionality built directly into the UI, I am increasingly coming to the view that anything that requires the moderators or board administrators to take action amounts to ceding control.
Our reluctance to implement new features like this is less to do with a desire to exercise control, or a management disagreement–I agree with you that the forum software has some puzzling omissions–and more with the technical inability to provide them. I don't think any of us know PHP well enough to be comfortable writing extensions for the forum from scratch. Even if we did, doing so creates a new maintenance liability (code has to remain compatible with the forum whenever new upstream updates are released, checked for security vulnerabilities, etc). The forum software is open source, so theoretically the code could be provided to the Simple Machines project to maintain, but that entails getting familiar with key personnel in that project, getting the code to pass whatever review process they have, etc.
Whenever you see a forum feature suggested and you see it quickly implemented, it means that either that was a feature available in the forum software, easily enabled by clicking a checkbox in the admin panel, or an out-of-the-box extension existed that was not too hard to install.
Quote from: 1 on October 17, 2018, 07:12:39 PM
You, rickmastfan67, and Scott5114 seem to fix quotes and move threads to the correct location much more often than locking threads or warning/banning, although rickmastfan67 was involved in the webny99/Marf incident.
In my case, it's because I work a second-shift job and thus my "shift" here generally occurs during third-shift hours. (Note the timestamp on this post; it's 02:30 as I write this.) Since the forum is usually pretty dead when I'm posting, there usually aren't many behavioral problems that need to be addressed in real time, so I tend to execute more janitorial duties that I run across during my everyday reading of the forum. I do weigh in on moderator discussions when they take place, and I am often the one to enact a decision that has been made by the consensus of the mods.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 02:01:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 17, 2018, 12:53:23 PMI imagine many of the post hidings/deletions are so people coming across the thread later don't misinterpret those posts as an example of acceptable conduct.
While I understand that rationale, I think the underlying purpose is better served by leaving the posts in place with a clear signal that they attract sanction, such as a purple-text post indicating the thread is being locked temporarily or permanently and providing an explanation that tactfully but clearly delineates the unacceptable conduct. Simply making the offending text disappear is too reminiscent of the vanishing commissar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Yezhov).
While I understand the concern of just vanishing text down the memory hole, the post removals are done both to facilitate a "don't feed the trolls" approach, as Valerie summarizes, and also as a form of content curation to improve signal-to-noise ratio. What is left behind theoretically should be more pleasant to read through without the removed posts present.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 02:01:22 PMMy understanding is that on this forum, one does not "run" for moderator positions as such. One is simply tapped to serve and one's chances of being so chosen go down if one expresses any interest in the position.
It's even more ad hoc than that. We do not really have a set number of moderator slots that we expect to be filled at any given point in time. Instead, it fluctuates based on the needs of the moment. Moderators are chosen through informal consensus, both as to the creation of a slot ("You guys think we need a mod for the fictional highways section?" "Nah, not really") and as to filling it ("We need a new mod, how about X?" "I don't think X would make a good mod for this reason, how about Y?" "Yeah, sure, Y would work"). We don't disqualify people only because they've expressed they want to be a mod, as far as I've seen.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2018, 03:39:24 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 17, 2018, 02:01:22 PMMy understanding is that on this forum, one does not "run" for moderator positions as such. One is simply tapped to serve and one's chances of being so chosen go down if one expresses any interest in the position.
It's even more ad hoc than that. We do not really have a set number of moderator slots that we expect to be filled at any given point in time. Instead, it fluctuates based on the needs of the moment. Moderators are chosen through informal consensus, both as to the creation of a slot ("You guys think we need a mod for the fictional highways section?" "Nah, not really") and as to filling it ("We need a new mod, how about X?" "I don't think X would make a good mod for this reason, how about Y?" "Yeah, sure, Y would work"). We don't disqualify people only because they've expressed they want to be a mod, as far as I've seen.
Mod A: "H.B. has said he wouldn't mind being a moderator. How about him for Ohio Valley? That's his home area."
Mods B, C, D and E: "Not only no, but hell no. He causes more heartburn than he's worth and he frequently complains about our decisions."
Mod A: "OK, scratch that. Next?"
I can imagine that conversation having happened several times when bringing on a new mod is discussed. :bigass:
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2018, 03:39:24 AMQuote from: J N Winkler on October 15, 2018, 01:31:05 PM
While it would be nice to have this functionality built directly into the UI, I am increasingly coming to the view that anything that requires the moderators or board administrators to take action amounts to ceding control.
Our reluctance to implement new features like this is less to do with a desire to exercise control, or a management disagreement–I agree with you that the forum software has some puzzling omissions–and more with the technical inability to provide them. I don't think any of us know PHP well enough to be comfortable writing extensions for the forum from scratch. Even if we did, doing so creates a new maintenance liability (code has to remain compatible with the forum whenever new upstream updates are released, checked for security vulnerabilities, etc). The forum software is open source, so theoretically the code could be provided to the Simple Machines project to maintain, but that entails getting familiar with key personnel in that project, getting the code to pass whatever review process they have, etc.
Whenever you see a forum feature suggested and you see it quickly implemented, it means that either that was a feature available in the forum software, easily enabled by clicking a checkbox in the admin panel, or an out-of-the-box extension existed that was not too hard to install.
I am familiar with all of these issues from my own involvement in running SABRE. My reference to "ceding control" was in relation to the alternative, usually but not always available, of the user writing a
wget wrapper script to implement the desired functionality for himself or herself on his or her terminal, rather than leaving the initiative in the hands of management. It takes time and know-how to code one's own workarounds--and for that matter,
wget doesn't always work; often it is necessary to use
curl for some server transactions that should work with
wget but mysteriously fail--but often this is the only option when the administrators are unable or unwilling to make the desired change.
In my own case, I have not yet written any
wget wrapper scripts for this forum, but I have for my public library account. Our local public library uses a fairly vanilla implementation of the commercially available Polaris integrated library system, with the same issues associated with expanding functionality through bolt-on mods that are encountered with all of the major Web forum software packages. We have low per-capita funding and a historically tight budget, so we have to be careful when we commit technical resource.
Some other public libraries automatically renew their customers' unreturned books on the days they fall due, unless there are pending holds for other customers; we don't. The Cincinnati Public Library has a "Hot Authors" program where customers can sign up for automatic holds on new books written by one or more of 40 popular authors; we don't. Both of these are extensions of existing functionality that conceptually can be implemented by adding a mod to an ILS. (I think recent versions of Polaris may have auto-renewal baked in, but probably not "Hot Authors" because Cincinnati is piloting this program nationally and introduced it just a couple of years ago.)
The current version of my library script runs at 5 AM each day, checks for books that fall due that day, attempts to renew them, and generates an alert if any cannot be renewed, so that I have the entirety of the library's opening hours for that day to return them. It also tells me if I have any holds on the shelf and if so, how much longer I have to pick them up (our library is unforgiving about late hold pickup and assesses a fine of IIRC $1.25 for each hold that is not picked up within a week). I have not done it yet, but it would be conceptually simple for me to implement my own version of "Hot Authors" with a module that searches the catalogue automatically for each author and generates an alert when there is a change in search result count, and I would not necessarily be limited to ~40 popular authors like the users of Cincinnati's built-in functionality.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2018, 03:39:24 AMWhile I understand the concern of just vanishing text down the memory hole, the post removals are done both to facilitate a "don't feed the trolls" approach, as Valerie summarizes, and also as a form of content curation to improve signal-to-noise ratio. What is left behind theoretically should be more pleasant to read through without the removed posts present.
There are other ways to contain trolls. Removing text that is considered to be problematic often gets in the way of justice being seen to be done and can feed a perception that insiders look after each other by covering up open displays of racial prejudice (or whatever). (FWIW, I did see the posts in question before they were removed, and although I feel the phrasing was unfortunate, I regard them as statements of personal truth rather than as racism.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2018, 11:50:06 AM
personal truth
{insert political or religious comment here}
[/troll]
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2018, 11:50:06 AM(FWIW, I did see the posts in question before they were removed, and although I feel the phrasing was unfortunate, I regard them as statements of personal truth rather than as racism.)
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2018, 11:50:06 AM
personal truth
{insert political or religious comment here}
[/troll]
If this is in reference to David's comment about Asian hotel owners, the response by whomever it was, and then his "some, I assume, are good people," then it's painfully obvious that someone involved in the discussion does not know anything about his political beliefs. I can't see him quoting Donald Trump in defense of his own statement. And given his experience in the hotel business -- way back in the MTR days, he was giving me advice on lodging in the Bentonville/Fayetteville area because he had worked for a lodging establishment in the vicinity -- I'd defer to his personal experiences and advice over a whole lot of people simply because he has a background in it.
Quote from: Takumi on October 18, 2018, 06:01:23 PM
I didn't see the posts in question, but I have seen deleted posts and keeping the thread open about as often as I have seen a permanent lock. I don't think I've seen a temp lock before.
As I stated in a comment that was later deleted, I expected better than the remarks made by US 71 that were later deleted and, presumably, led to the removal of his mod powers (I had the same theory). Mods and admins should lead by example, and US 71 was not. I also see no need to summarize those comments here.
I suspect the temp lock was put in place while a decision was made about US 71's future - I've never heard of such a thing, either, just open threads and perma-locked threads.
Quote from: jon daly on October 18, 2018, 09:09:14 PMBut I did notice that the CONELRAD thread was temporarily locked.
Hindsight being 20/20, I probably shouldn't have taken it off topic. Mostly I wanted to troll H. Belkins and, well, it worked.
I screwed up once, fanning the flames about the US Civil War in the thread about the South. I didn't intend to, but mistakes sometimes happen.
What's odd is that abe and hb are like oil and water, but I consider them to be two of my more favorite posters.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 19, 2018, 03:59:26 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2018, 11:50:06 AM(FWIW, I did see the posts in question before they were removed, and although I feel the phrasing was unfortunate, I regard them as statements of personal truth rather than as racism.)
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2018, 11:50:06 AM
personal truth
{insert political or religious comment here}
[/troll]
If this is in reference to David's comment about Asian hotel owners, the response by whomever it was, and then his "some, I assume, are good people," then it's painfully obvious that someone involved in the discussion does not know anything about his political beliefs. I can't see him quoting Donald Trump in defense of his own statement. And given his experience in the hotel business -- way back in the MTR days, he was giving me advice on lodging in the Bentonville/Fayetteville area because he had worked for a lodging establishment in the vicinity -- I'd defer to his personal experiences and advice over a whole lot of people simply because he has a background in it.
Oh, sorry. No, I never even
saw the whole Asian thing on here. I just don't happen to believe in such a thing as "personal truth." But that would either be a religious or a political discussion, so I'd rather not troll in that way.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 04:52:04 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 19, 2018, 03:59:26 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2018, 11:50:06 AM(FWIW, I did see the posts in question before they were removed, and although I feel the phrasing was unfortunate, I regard them as statements of personal truth rather than as racism.)
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2018, 11:50:06 AM
personal truth
{insert political or religious comment here}
[/troll]
If this is in reference to David's comment about Asian hotel owners, the response by whomever it was, and then his "some, I assume, are good people," then it's painfully obvious that someone involved in the discussion does not know anything about his political beliefs. I can't see him quoting Donald Trump in defense of his own statement. And given his experience in the hotel business -- way back in the MTR days, he was giving me advice on lodging in the Bentonville/Fayetteville area because he had worked for a lodging establishment in the vicinity -- I'd defer to his personal experiences and advice over a whole lot of people simply because he has a background in it.
Oh, sorry. No, I never even saw the whole Asian thing on here. I just don't happen to believe in such a thing as "personal truth." But that would either be a religious or a political discussion, so I'd rather not troll in that way.
I believe in personal truths. I just believe that the plural of anecdote isn't data, and the plural of personal truths isn't data, either.
The backdrop to what David was saying is that South Asians have become very well represented in the budget motel sector in this country, to the extent that an estimated 40% of properties are in Indian-American ownership. This is a well-documented phenomenon (1 (https://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012/06/11/why-indian-americans-dominate-the-u-s-motel-industry/), 2 (https://commercialobserver.com/2016/11/powerful-patels-a-look-into-the-quiet-community-of-indian-u-s-hotel-owners/), 3 (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/motel-ownership-offers-indian-americans-gateway-american-dream-180949873/), 4 (https://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/04/magazine/a-patel-motel-cartel.html)). As an economic historian, I find it fascinating from a sociological and social-history perspective the more I look into it.
I normally travel solo and book lodging online with price as the primary criterion. I am usually not aware of any particulars of an establishment's ownership before I show up to check in, nor do I typically make any effort to research it. In the past I have also generally preferred to travel solo and have favored cheap motels, though in the absence of lodging search engines, price discovery was a more cumbersome process that resulted in a great deal of satisficing. I travelled fairly extensively from 2000-2005 and generally found that motel front-desk personnel were Caucasian; South Asians were very much in the minority. After a hiatus, I travelled widely again in 2016-2017 and found that front-desk personnel were usually South Asian. It is difficult to avoid the impression that the budget sector has been almost completely vacated by all other ethnicities in the last decade or so, though it is possible my experience reflects sampling bias from actually having to drive up to the motel and check price and vacancy during the earlier period.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2018, 06:57:49 PM
After a hiatus, I travelled widely again in 2016-2017 and found that front-desk personnel were usually South Asian. It is difficult to avoid the impression that the budget sector has been almost completely vacated by all other ethnicities in the last decade or so, though it is possible my experience reflects sampling bias from actually having to drive up to the motel and check price and vacancy during the earlier period.
Speaking from experience as an employee at a Marriott in Tacoma between 2014 and 2018, the vast majority of the front-desk staff, and a sizeable amount behind the scenes, were Filipino (not just South Asian). Hell, three of the nine [steadily employed] valets were Filipino. I understand my area has a large number of Filipinos, but they are undoubtedly over-represented in terms of the hotel's racial makeup. I was personally one of only (at most) four valets who were white, of 11 total. That was reduced to two before I left, but has increased back to two since.
Part of me thinks this was because the main hiring manager was himself Filipino, but he can only hire who applies. So, evidently, a lot of Filipinos were applying. For the record, hotel ownership was Caucasian.
FFS, "David" didn't merely state that a significant number of hotels and motels are owned and/or operated by South Asians, he stated that the ones that are are managed horribly and unclean. Good luck spinning that one, guys.
I still think he shouldn't have been desysopped. It wasn't an abuse of moderation powers, and in a normal situation (meaning this thread didn't exist to talk about the deleted content), it would simply have been forgotten in a few weeks. Everyone makes occasional blunders.
Keep in mind that I was one of the members to call him out on what he said, and I still don't think it's that important in the scope of the entire forum.
This has gone OT to the point that we are discussing other members. That's enough.