PA Turnpike News

[PHLBOS]

On the eastern end, they built a 1 way AET toll approximately where there was formally a 2 way toll plaza. Clearly they weren't worried about people avoiding the toll, and the issues with 2 way AET tolling were significant enough to simply go one way only.

That so-called 2-way toll plaza was actually the eastern end of the PA Turnpike's toll-ticket system.  Such was relocated west of the newly-opened I-95 connection.

The reason why that AET gantry is 1-way (PA-bound) is due to the surrounding tolled Delaware River crossings (run by different agencies) being 1-way.

[CapeCodder]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

[Mr_Northside]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

If we're looking decades into the future, I'd give it a firm "can't totally rule it out"

[PAHighways]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

At one point, a state senator put forth legislation to build one there and Breezewood:  https://www.facebook.com/pahighways/photos/a.10150507369662352/10155669878737352/?type=3&theater.

[Hot Rod Hootenanny]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

Not in your lifetime.

[CapeCodder]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

[jeffandnicole]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

PA doesn't care about things like that.

[Rothman]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

PA doesn't care about things like that.

Also, they've allowed some serious development right at the overpass.  Building a direct interchange is getting more and more difficult.

[Beltway]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

PA doesn't care about things like that.

Also, they've allowed some serious development right at the overpass.  Building a direct interchange is getting more and more difficult.

[Rothman]

Yeah, I remember that idea.  Given the number of years it will be before PA even considers doing something there, I wouldn't be surprised if another distribution center pops up near there.

[Beltway]

Yeah, I remember that idea.  Given the number of years it will be before PA even considers doing something there, I wouldn't be surprised if another distribution center pops up near there.

Advance right-of-way acquisition ...

[Rothman]

PennDOT would have to be motivated to do so, and they are not.

[Alps]

#FarmLivesMatter

[Beltway]

http://capital-beltway.com/CarlislePA.jpg

#FarmLivesMatter

The cows, pigs, chickens, crops, horses and shooting ranges.

[vdeane]

It would probably be easier to build a new trumpet on the Turnpike pointing the opposite way, with a folded diamond interchange with US 11, and ending at another trumpet on I-81 north of Claremont Road.

[Beltway]

It would probably be easier to build a new trumpet on the Turnpike pointing the opposite way, with a folded diamond interchange with US 11, and ending at another trumpet on I-81 north of Claremont Road.

I considered that, and had 3 different schemes.  The one above was just one, but was the one that could work well and avoid making PCT move their interchange.

[mrsman]

It would probably be easier to build a new trumpet on the Turnpike pointing the opposite way, with a folded diamond interchange with US 11, and ending at another trumpet on I-81 north of Claremont Road.

I considered that, and had 3 different schemes.  The one above was just one, but was the one that could work well and avoid making PCT move their interchange.

I wonder to what extent the move toward AET may have on the ability of connecting more highways to the turnpike directly.  Certainly if toll booths do not need to be constructed, the interchanges can be a lot cheaper.  It will also allow for more direct interchanges, rather than the more common double-trumpets that toll roads tend to have.

Of course, I am not on top of whether the PA Turnpike is moving toward AET, even though many toll facilities in the Northeast are in the process of converting.

[briantroutman]

I wonder to what extent the move toward AET may have on the ability of connecting more highways to the turnpike directly.  Certainly if toll booths do not need to be constructed, the interchanges can be a lot cheaper.  It will also allow for more direct interchanges, rather than the more common double-trumpets that toll roads tend to have.

Of course, I am not on top of whether the PA Turnpike is moving toward AET, even though many toll facilities in the Northeast are in the process of converting.

Yes, the PTC plans to complete the transition to all-electronic tolling in late 2022. Rather than doing an instantaneous conversion, the Commission has been slowly chipping away at the closed ticket system as well as building E-ZPass-only interchanges within it. Recent and upcoming major interchange projects (I-95, Scranton Beltway) have been planned around using high-speed cashless tolling, and I think it's a foregone conclusion that any future connections at Carlisle, Breezewood, or elsewhere will be as well.

[Beltway]

Yes, the PTC plans to complete the transition to all-electronic tolling in late 2022. Rather than doing an instantaneous conversion, the Commission has been slowly chipping away at the closed ticket system as well as building E-ZPass-only interchanges within it. Recent and upcoming major interchange projects (I-95, Scranton Beltway) have been planned around using high-speed cashless tolling, and I think it's a foregone conclusion that any future connections at Carlisle, Breezewood, or elsewhere will be as well.

Carlisle has a major group of industrial businesses in the southeast quadrant of where the Turnpike crosses I-81.  That would be a major obstacle to building a conventional freeway-to-freeway interchange.  Therefore a scheme like mine above might be worth building soon because that might be the best they can do there; and providing a direct connection is far better than what they have today.

[briantroutman]

Of course any new connections would take into account the cost of ROW acquisition, the impact to the community, etc. But I don't think that any future interchanges built by the PTC would include traditional toll plazas. That said, a double trumpet or other design that brings all directions of traffic to a single point may be the most advantageous design anyway.

Since I-81 is a diagonal route, it occurred to me that only four of the eight connections are probably high priorities (E to N, N to E, W to S, S to W). So my initial thought would be that the PTC could solve the majority of the problem at less cost by building just those four ramps at the crossing–essentially half a stack–and have the other (arguably less logical) connections use the existing Carlisle interchange to connect via US 11. But as observed, the warehouse in the SE quadrant would challenge one of the necessary ramps (N to E), and by the time all of the weave issues with the existing Carlisle/Middlesex ramps were resolved with braids, the result would probably be a very expensive (yet still incomplete) interchange. So I abandoned that idea.

I think Scott's and Valerie's suggestion of a pair of three-way interchanges has merit. I played around with the concept for a little while and came up with the sketch below. The greatest ROW impact is to the auto salvage yard north of the Turnpike. But the Ahold headquarters building (just northeast of the connector on US 11) would remain untouched, the commercial businesses on US 11 would be largely unaffected, and only a few homes would need to be taken.

On the Turnpike exits in both directions, off-ramps would split into I-81 and US 11 lanes. The existing trumpet at US 11 is retained in this sketch to provide access to/from the Turnpike westbound, but it could be replaced with an at-grade intersection. Access to/from the eastbound Turnpike is provided via a pair of at-grade intersections on either side of the connector. This sketch also includes an on-ramp to I-81 southbound via the connector–the idea being that I-81 southbound travelers could resume a journey after stopping along the US 11 commercial strip without having to backtrack northward–but this could be deleted.

[rickmastfan67]

That probably could work.  Also, then PennDOT could 'downgrade' the US-11 interchange on I-81 to either a SPUI or a simple diamond as the 3-part cloverleaf there would be overpowered, and free back up some land for new businesses.

[Beltway]

That probably could work.  Also, then PennDOT could 'downgrade' the US-11 interchange on I-81 to either a SPUI or a simple diamond as the 3-part cloverleaf there would be overpowered, and free back up some land for new businesses.

All the local traffic could be directed to the US-11/I-81 interchange, with no direct connections between the Turnpike and US-11, but I figured that PTC may refuse to go along with that.

That scheme of Brian's was one of the general ideas that I had as to where to connect the two highways.

[rickmastfan67]

That probably could work.  Also, then PennDOT could 'downgrade' the US-11 interchange on I-81 to either a SPUI or a simple diamond as the 3-part cloverleaf there would be overpowered, and free back up some land for new businesses.

All the local traffic could be directed to the US-11/I-81 interchange, with no direct connections between the Turnpike and US-11, but I figured that PTC may refuse to go along with that.

That scheme of Brian's was one of the general ideas that I had as to where to connect the two highways.

That's why I mentioned the option of a possible SPUI to replace the current US-11/I-81 interchange as well.  Can't hurt to remove a weave area, plus you aren't adding any extra traffic lights that way, since there's already one for the I-81 SB offramp due to no loop for the I-81 SB -> US-11 NB movement.  Just shift it to under I-81, plus would give some more space between it & the light that's almost right beside the current one @ Country Club Rd.

[PHLBOS]

I played around with On the Turnpike exits in both directions, off-ramps would split into I-81 and US 11 lanes. The existing trumpet at US 11 is retained in this sketch to provide access to/from the Turnpike westbound, but it could be replaced with an at-grade intersection.

Disagree regarding using an at-grade intersection at US 11 en lieu of the existing trumpet interchange at this location.  The Carlisle Fairgrounds down the road has many events (mostly car shows) throughout the year and US 11 from the grounds to the Turnpike interchange does become a parking lot towards the beginning and ending of those events.  One less traffic signal or the need to make a left turn, which forces traffic in the opposite direction to stop, the better IMHO.

BTW, your above-sketch looks like the best possible solution for that area; especially once the PTC goes fully-AET.

[VTGoose]

Will there ever be a direct interchange with I-81?

Not in your lifetime.

You'd think they would because 81 is a pretty important route.

PA doesn't care about things like that.

Also, they've allowed some serious development right at the overpass.  Building a direct interchange is getting more and more difficult.

Lots of interesting concepts to connect the two highways, but the key is right here -- all the businesses around those two interchanges generate tax revenue (and profits) and the various localities will not give that up lightly.