Vermont

[froggie]

I wonder what the accident rate is along the Super 2, and whether or not a median divider has ever been suggested/proposed, even if its just pylons.

Not that high, from the digging I just partook.  VTrans has a crash query mapper so I took a look at 2023 data.  There were only two reported crashes along the entire Super-2 section in 2023...both south of the Arlington exit.  Doing a 3-year check (2021-2023) bumps that to a total of 5.

US 7 would benefit from corridor upgrades throughout, including alternating passing lanes, smoothing and straightening curves to assist with sight lines, but this would destroy the natural beauty that you experience in that state. I think it's fine as is.

From a purely traffic perspective, 7 may warrant 4 lanes from Vergennes north...that gets into 5-digit AADT territory.  Otherwise, there isn't any lengthy widening that would be warranted.

[froggie]

https://www.waterburyroundabout.org/news-archive/74j06edxiexvizmo02n0vkbcl3fnag?fbclid=IwAR0zOpxCCEghgM1Dch4bcljkib-PW9B6rajo23y80XPsNoTf4Z9sCxOWWCw_aem_AUpBv5ajdJ47SWa6UOJuwSd-o3B2mMesWVAKjcpXodd-65NQJbdp5u2NSXkW3komE0z3hCJacaytLkFjskJOj5ge

This does not surprise me in the least.  I wouldn't be surprised if other towns limit access or close local roads (especially dirt roads in the middle of mud season) for the Eclipse just so that Eclipse traffic doesn't cause them to disintegrate.

[SectorZ]

https://www.waterburyroundabout.org/news-archive/74j06edxiexvizmo02n0vkbcl3fnag?fbclid=IwAR0zOpxCCEghgM1Dch4bcljkib-PW9B6rajo23y80XPsNoTf4Z9sCxOWWCw_aem_AUpBv5ajdJ47SWa6UOJuwSd-o3B2mMesWVAKjcpXodd-65NQJbdp5u2NSXkW3komE0z3hCJacaytLkFjskJOj5ge

This does not surprise me in the least.  I wouldn't be surprised if other towns limit access or close local roads (especially dirt roads in the middle of mud season) for the Eclipse just so that Eclipse traffic doesn't cause them to disintegrate.

I wonder what the roads are going to be like if the 4/3-4/5 storm pans out up there. The possibility of two feet of snow along portions of the total eclipse route are possible.

[froggie]

They'll be a soggy mess...as they'll just start to melt and thaw out Sunday into Monday.

[noelbotevera]

I was returning from viewing the eclipse in Quebec earlier this week, and while driving across Vermont on US 4, there's a random freeway section between the NY state line and Rutland. At the time I drove it (8 PM on a Tuesday), it was practically empty. Based on what I saw on the ground, New York clearly has no plans to extend it -- I'm sure it'd be nice for NYC to Vermont vacationers, as a quick way from I-87 -- while Vermont also has no plans to extend it considering there's a shopping mall in the way.

In my opinion, I think it'd be nice for it to fully bypass Rutland, but I'm not sure how because there's also a state forest a couple miles behind the shopping mall. I'm unfamiliar with any canceled freeway proposals in Vermont (minus I-189), so I'm clearly missing something. My best guess is that this freeway was supposed to cross the Green Mountains, but all the ski resorts are in that region -- so this would have probably tied into I-91 on the other end of the state for the sake of connectivity.

[Rothman]

I was returning from viewing the eclipse in Quebec earlier this week, and while driving across Vermont on US 4, there's a random freeway section between the NY state line and Rutland. At the time I drove it (8 PM on a Tuesday), it was practically empty. Based on what I saw on the ground, New York clearly has no plans to extend it -- I'm sure it'd be nice for NYC to Vermont vacationers, as a quick way from I-87 -- while Vermont also has no plans to extend it considering there's a shopping mall in the way.

In my opinion, I think it'd be nice for it to fully bypass Rutland, but I'm not sure how because there's also a state forest a couple miles behind the shopping mall. I'm unfamiliar with any canceled freeway proposals in Vermont (minus I-189), so I'm clearly missing something. My best guess is that this freeway was supposed to cross the Green Mountains, but all the ski resorts are in that region -- so this would have probably tied into I-91 on the other end of the state for the sake of connectivity.

Yeah, that's sat there for decades.  I'd even wonder if VT considers that stretch a mistake.

[roadman65]

Wasn't the US 4 freeway to be part of the never built I-98 that was proposed but later scrapped for whatever reason?

[Rothman]

Wasn't the US 4 freeway to be part of the never built I-98 that was proposed but later scrapped for whatever reason?

No.

[roadman65]

https://maps.app.goo.gl/yBTpQZwqSPow2QMq7
Well being the mall has lost two anchor tenants maybe VTrans should continue the freeway further east at least to bypass Rutland anyway.

[vdeane]

IIRC there were two I-92 proposals.  One along VT/NH 9/NH 101, and another along the US 4 corridor.  Either way, VT in the 60s did hope that NY would build something connecting it to I-87, but NY refused (which IMO is unfortunate given the congestion on the NY 149/US 4 corridor, especially around Fort Ann and "million dollar mile", AKA the US 9 overlap near exit 20).

I looked up the AADT, and it appears to be comparable to I-93 or the northern bits of I-91.  Traffic has never seemed particularly sparse when I've used it, but then I usually do on Sunday, so in the morning I'm not expecting any traffic, and in the afternoon, everyone is returning home.

It's amazing how isolated Vermont is from anywhere that isn't Massachusetts (and by extension, Connecticut and Rhode Island), New Hampshire, or Canada.

[Rothman]

Ah, I-92.  I-98's current proposal is much further north.

[roadman65]

Ah, I-92.  I-98's current proposal is much further north.

I thought about I-92 after. I remember hearing one of them was proposed but never came to fruition.

[webny99]

I was returning from viewing the eclipse in Quebec earlier this week, and while driving across Vermont on US 4, there's a random freeway section between the NY state line and Rutland. At the time I drove it (8 PM on a Tuesday), it was practically empty. Based on what I saw on the ground, New York clearly has no plans to extend it -- I'm sure it'd be nice for NYC to Vermont vacationers, as a quick way from I-87 -- while Vermont also has no plans to extend it considering there's a shopping mall in the way.

In my opinion, I think it'd be nice for it to fully bypass Rutland, but I'm not sure how because there's also a state forest a couple miles behind the shopping mall. I'm unfamiliar with any canceled freeway proposals in Vermont (minus I-189), so I'm clearly missing something. My best guess is that this freeway was supposed to cross the Green Mountains, but all the ski resorts are in that region -- so this would have probably tied into I-91 on the other end of the state for the sake of connectivity.

Yeah, that's sat there for decades.  I'd even wonder if VT considers that stretch a mistake.

I think NY not extending it to meet I-87 at Queensbury is a bigger mistake. Yes, the VT stretch is lightly traveled, but it's a treat to drive since freeways are such a rarity in eastern VT, and it would be busier if it connected to I-87.

[froggie]

Some context:

- The main push for "I-92" was in the early 1970s.  Initial construction of the US 4 freeway predates that by a number of years, with the first section (Castleton to West Rutland) having opened ca. 1969.  That said, VTrans and NYS did request Interstate mileage along both the US 4 and NY 7/VT 9 corridors as part of the 1968 mileage addition.

- A Rutland bypass for US 4 (and, in most cases, US 7 as well) has been studied at least 3 times to my knowledge...ca. 1967, during the 1980s (various study updates between 1984 and 1989), and 1997 (getting as far as a DEIS issued in December, 1997).  While the 1967 transportation plan envisioned a bypass on the south and east sides of Rutland (which led to the current US 4 bypass segment between West Rutland and US 7), the more recent studies looked at corridors on the north/west sides in addition to the south/east sides.

- Diamond Run Mall, the shopping mall in question, closed in 2019.  There's been talk, as recently as January, that the owner wants to redevelop the property.  But it's not just the mall that blocks a continuation of the bypass to the east side of Rutland...there's either suburban home development or (as webny99 noted) the Rutland City Forest in the way.  VTrans concluded in its 1997 study that there was no way to avoid Section 4(f) impacts for an east-side bypass.  Not unless one wants to (literally) plow through dozens of homes.

- To the best of my knowledge (and research), no detailed location studies were ever done east of the Rutland bypass.  Some local bypass and system alternative locations were studied in a 1989 US 4 corridor study, but those were all envisioned as 2-lane or 4-lane at-grade, not a freeway.  Two major impediments east of the Green Mountain spine are topography and Conservancy land.  Even the early 1970s major east-west study mentioned this, and suggested that a freeway facility wouldn't necessarily follow US 4 to Quechee but instead may have to turn northeast around Killington and meet I-89 near Bethel or Royalton.

[The Ghostbuster]

How often is the at-grade rail crossing used just west of the US 4 freeway's eastern terminus (I've never seen a rail crossing with traffic signals before)? Although I have seen at-grade rail crossings on freeways before, would it have been too expensive (and practically unnecessary due to the road's terminus just to the east) to grade-separate that rail crossing like the one near the freeway's western terminus?

[shadyjay]

Given its on the mainline of the Vermont Railway from Rutland to North Bennington, I'm pretty sure its used around 4-5 days a week, at least.  Not sure what current traffic loads are like on the "southern division"... it's been up and down for years.  There's also been talk of rerouting Amtrak's Ethan Allen Express (that currently runs from NYC to Burlington via Albany and Rutland) into southwest VT, hitting up North Bennington and Manchester along the way.  Tracks would need a lot of work, however, to bring them up to Amtrak standards. 

The crossing most likely has traffic signals on the masts to get motorists attention a little better.  I don't believe there's any gates at the crossing.  If there were, I'd bet there'd be quite a few replacements. 

I wonder if, had the freeway been extended to the east of US 7, if it would have crossed over US 7, therefore been elevated enough in order to bridge over the tracks.  I wouldn't hold the fact that the mall sits where a Route 4 freeway would go as a deal-breaker, given the current state of malls nationwide, and theroretically you could possibly sneak in a US 4 bypass, coming back in to the existing ROW somewhere around/east of the Home Depot on the NE side of town, but I doubt its even on VAOT's radar (and good luck getting it through ACT 250 and whatnot).  Look how long it took to get the Champlain Parkway to start construction.  And then there's the rest of the Bennington Bypass.  How Bennington even warrants such a bypass is beyond me.  Honestly, Rutland's not that bad to get through. 

Actually, the end of the US 4 freeway is almost due west of where US 4 takes a bend as it enters Killington from the east, at the Bridgewater line.  Due to the mountains, US 4 heads north before turning back west and making the climb over Sherburne Pass to get down to Rutland.   Wonder if there was a tunnel planned once upon a time.  Hard to imagine, but also hard to imagine the Green Mountain Parkway, which was to follow the ridgeline of the Greens. 

[froggie]

A few things in response to shadyjay's post:

- The existing US 4 rail crossing does not have gates.  Given that the rail tracks there are only used 3-4 times a week (latest figures I could find online), it likely doesn't meet Hazard Index warrants form gates.

- A grabt was awarded this winter for planning for a NYC-Burlington passenger train that would serve the Bennington area and Manchester, as shadyjay indicated.  But this would not ne a relocation of the Ethan Allen Express...it would be an ADDITIONAL train on top of what currently exists.  And shadyjay's right sbout track conditions.  South of Rutland to the state line is currently Class 2 track.  It would have to be brought up to Class 3 at a minimum in order to effectively run passenger trains.

- The only tunnels I'm aware of that VTrans ever considered along US 4 were for a potential Woodstock bypass, from the same 1989 corridor study I referenced upthread.  They were eliminated early on for a predictable reason:  cost.

[shadyjay]

- A grabt was awarded this winter for planning for a NYC-Burlington passenger train that would serve the Bennington area and Manchester, as shadyjay indicated.  But this would not ne a relocation of the Ethan Allen Express...it would be an ADDITIONAL train on top of what currently exists.  And shadyjay's right sbout track conditions.  South of Rutland to the state line is currently Class 2 track.  It would have to be brought up to Class 3 at a minimum in order to effectively run passenger trains.

Well then, if its a second train, then even better!  Question remains what route will they choose to get from Albany over to Hoosick Jct/N Bennington... unfortunately the direct route north to Troy is I believe severed.  It will be kind of a roundabout route but once it gets to VT, its pretty much a straight shot north.  And with no backup move required.  And it should be named the "Green Mountain Flyer" as that name is available for use again. 

A tunnel along US 4 for bypassing Woodstock?  Wow... I can hear the NIMBYs crying from here!