Unpopular Anything Road-Related Opinions

[jeffandnicole]

One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in.   

People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile.  Agreed.  And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.

Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways.  WI-35 should be WI-1. 

Agreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.

I suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.

Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).

...as long as it doesn't require you to relocate...

Personally, I wouldn't mind if a government project required me to relocate, so long as staying in the same town or whatever is an option. Moving is disruptive, but it's not a permanent disruption. I'd prefer just taking the L and moving, as opposed to trying to fight it and having the uncertainty of how that is going to end up going hanging over my head (and then possibly having to move anyway).

I can see how it might bother someone whose grandpappy's pappy's grandpappy's dog's uncle's babysitter twice removed's uncle's grandpappy's cousin's cat's coworker's niece's nephew's brother's aunt's grandpappy has been on the land for 163 centuries might get perturbed about it, but that's never been me.

Heh.  That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY.  You get compensated, but not relocated locally.

Within the 295/76/42 interchange project here in NJ, they had to buy up an apartment building or 2, but relocated the apartment building within the confines of the existing development.  It was an unusual example of buying and relocating in NJ, due to unusual circumstances.

But usually, the State offers up money for a property; property owner can negotiate as they wish, and that's that.  The State doesn't care if you move down the road, across town, or out of the state; their part of the deal is done.

[Scott5114]

I know. What I'm saying is I don't mind having to move if they pay out enough that I can afford (and can readily find) a place within a reasonable distance of where I lived before. (What would be a problem is if they lowballed me to where that wasn't possible. But most media stories about landowners opposing public works projects that I've seen over the last 40 years or so are people complaining about how they've owned this land for X number of years and they don't want to give it up, or some form of NIMBY shit. So I assume that means that most people are happy with the amount being offered by the DOT and have some other reason they don't want to take the deal.)

[SEWIGuy]

My experience with people I know who have been relocated is that "if they pay enough" is the problem. There is only one buyer, and sure they are required to give you appraised value, but I think the appraisal industry is filled with nonsense anyway. Their customer (government, bank) wants them to hit a number - and if you don't hit it, the customer will go down the street to find someone who will.

[Rothman]

One for this site, I think there is a limit to how wide a highway can be, especially in urban areas. Don't like city traffic? Take a bus/subway, or stay in.   

People really do need to learn that there is more than one mode of passenger transportation besides the automobile.  Agreed.  And reality provides its own constraints to the width of a ROW regardless of how any of us feels about it.

Unpopular opinion from me: Wisconsin should have single-digit state highways.  WI-35 should be WI-1. 

Agreed. I know this is a pro-road forum but it's annoying how pissy some people on this forum get at the idea of some people being against an urban highway (or widening of an urban highway) or wanting an alternative to driving.

I suspect many of the overtly pro-freeway people here had the luxury of their neighborhood not being displaced by one.

Or the opposite. Some of us are pro-freeway because we want a freeway built to our city/urban area when currently such a freeway option does not exist (accessing the Interstate system requires 20+ miles of travel on non-freeways).

...as long as it doesn't require you to relocate...

Personally, I wouldn't mind if a government project required me to relocate, so long as staying in the same town or whatever is an option. Moving is disruptive, but it's not a permanent disruption. I'd prefer just taking the L and moving, as opposed to trying to fight it and having the uncertainty of how that is going to end up going hanging over my head (and then possibly having to move anyway).

I can see how it might bother someone whose grandpappy's pappy's grandpappy's dog's uncle's babysitter twice removed's uncle's grandpappy's cousin's cat's coworker's niece's nephew's brother's aunt's grandpappy has been on the land for 163 centuries might get perturbed about it, but that's never been me.

Heh.  That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY.  You get compensated, but not relocated locally.

Within the 295/76/42 interchange project here in NJ, they had to buy up an apartment building or 2, but relocated the apartment building within the confines of the existing development.  It was an unusual example of buying and relocating in NJ, due to unusual circumstances.

But usually, the State offers up money for a property; property owner can negotiate as they wish, and that's that.  The State doesn't care if you move down the road, across town, or out of the state; their part of the deal is done.

That's why I specified "residential."  Businesses can be relocated under eminent domain.

Probably stems from the Econ 101 principle that labor is mobile...

[Rothman]

I know. What I'm saying is I don't mind having to move if they pay out enough that I can afford (and can readily find) a place within a reasonable distance of where I lived before. (What would be a problem is if they lowballed me to where that wasn't possible. But most media stories about landowners opposing public works projects that I've seen over the last 40 years or so are people complaining about how they've owned this land for X number of years and they don't want to give it up, or some form of NIMBY shit. So I assume that means that most people are happy with the amount being offered by the DOT and have some other reason they don't want to take the deal.)

What you're saying is that you'll mind, given how this process usually goes.

[J N Winkler]

There is also the cold hard fact that certain negative impacts are not directly compensable.  For example, if you own a business and the new freeway leads to lower turnover due to poorer visibility and more circuitous routes to access your premises, that is not grounds for compensation.  If the added traffic leads to an increased noise level within your home that is still under the prescribed cutoffs for mitigations like noise walls, you are not going to get anything for it directly.  A fair degree (though certainly not all) of NIMBY behavior is really about pulling procedural levers to incentivize the highway agency to offer a more favorable deal in terms of compensation or mitigation.  From the agency's point of view, the difference between that and the initial offer is functionally a nuisance settlement.

[freebrickproductions]

RE: "federal highways", personally I think a useful term as a catch-all for US Routes and Interstates would be "federally-designated highways", as I think one person in the thread discussed earlier proposed.

[SEWIGuy]

But U.S. highways aren't "federally designated."

[hbelkins]

Heh.  That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY.  You get compensated, but not relocated locally.

Kentucky offers compensation for the property as well as relocation assistance.

[Rothman]

Heh.  That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY.  You get compensated, but not relocated locally.

Kentucky offers compensation for the property as well as relocation assistance.

I don't know what this article says, but I'd love to know given your statement:

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/columnists/gerth/2021/08/26/eminent-domain-kentucky-transportation-cabinet-takes-peoples-land/5471242001/

[vdeane]

RE: "federal highways", personally I think a useful term as a catch-all for US Routes and Interstates would be "federally-designated highways", as I think one person in the thread discussed earlier proposed.

AASHTO isn't part of the federal government, though.  So with the exception of many of the more recent interstates (and I think one US route somewhere - 377, maybe?), those aren't even federally designated.  FHWA does have to sign off with the interstates, but that's mainly to approve it becoming a part of the interstate system, not the number.

[kkt]

While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go"  and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.

I don't think not KNOWING the law is the problem.  They probably observe that every light signal the other side backs up with people who turn right or left into it, leaving no room for people going straight during their green.

[vdeane]

While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go"  and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.

I don't think not KNOWING the law is the problem.  They probably observe that every light signal the other side backs up with people who turn right or left into it, leaving no room for people going straight during their green.

Do they?  I've observed this behavior even with intersections where the overwhelming majority of traffic is going straight through.

[RobbieL2415]

While we're on the topic of traffic lights: It surprises me how few American drivers know that if the other side is backed up and you can't clear the intersection, you have to stop and wait, even on a green light. So many people just block the intersection because "green means go"  and they'd rather worsen a traffic jam and possibly cause gridlock than follow the law.

I don't think not KNOWING the law is the problem.  They probably observe that every light signal the other side backs up with people who turn right or left into it, leaving no room for people going straight during their green.

Do they?  I've observed this behavior even with intersections where the overwhelming majority of traffic is going straight through.

That isn't the law in my state, unless the intersection is checkerboard-striped and signed with the approriate "Do NOT Block Intersection" signage.

Without those two things, there arguably isn't a legal mechanism to cite someone for blocking the intersection in CT.

[hbelkins]

Heh.  That's not how residential eminent domain works in NY.  You get compensated, but not relocated locally.

Kentucky offers compensation for the property as well as relocation assistance.

I don't know what this article says, but I'd love to know given your statement:

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/opinion/columnists/gerth/2021/08/26/eminent-domain-kentucky-transportation-cabinet-takes-peoples-land/5471242001/

It's paywalled for me as well, but Joe Gerth isn't exactly a credible source of information.

[kphoger]

I'm more concerned with the term "federal highway" catching on from the other thread...

These people need to be forced to listen to a song about a little green shrub until they agree to stop using that term.

In preparing to teach my son how to drive, I was looking through the official Kansas driving handbook.  Under the list of state speed limits I found this nugget:

SPEED LIMITS (K.S.A. 8-1558)

Where no special hazards exist, the law sets maximum speeds for normal driving conditions.
Unless otherwise posted the maximum speeds are:

  • In Towns or Cities:
    Thirty (30) miles per hour in any urban district

  • On Roads and Highways Outside of Towns:
    Seventy-five (75) miles per hour on any separated, multilane highway as designated and
      posted by the Secretary of Transportation
    Sixty-five (65) miles per hour on any State or Federal Highway
    Fifty-five (55) miles per hour on any County or Township road

In case anyone is wondering:  no, the actual statute referenced does not use the phrase "Federal Highway".  Instead, the wording in that part is "all other highways".

[Scott5114]

How do you tell whether the Secretary of Transportation posted the speed limit, or if some guy in an orange vest did it?

[kphoger]

How do you tell whether the Secretary of Transportation posted the speed limit, or if some guy in an orange vest did it?

You know, I once had an encounter with a police officer in Illinois whose car said "Secretary of State" on it.  I should have called the officer an imposter and refused to get in the car.

(But then again, he was my ride home:  I was hitchhiking home from work, he stopped and tried to tell me it was against the law, he locked his keys in the car during our interaction, so he called a relative to run his spare set of keys, and then he gave me a ride home.)

[J N Winkler]

How do you tell whether the Secretary of Transportation posted the speed limit, or if some guy in an orange vest did it?

Good question.  I suspect speed limits are minuted in some fashion, though they do not appear to be gazetted in the Kansas Register.  The KDOT secretary also has an unilateral power to designate state highways that was inherited from the old State Highway Commission, and this is exercised through resolutions that are now available online through the Rural Resolutions database.

[kphoger]

How do you tell whether the Secretary of Transportation posted the speed limit, or if some guy in an orange vest did it?

Good question.  I suspect speed limits are minuted in some fashion, though they do not appear to be gazetted in the Kansas Register.

But does Calvin Reed actually drive around and post them?  (And if so, does he wear an orange vest while doing so?)

[J N Winkler]

But does Calvin Reed actually drive around and post them?  (And if so, does he wear an orange vest while doing so?)

If he is actually doing that, he should also be wearing a hard hat as well as a fluorescent orange vest!

Seriously, though, I suspect all he does is sign his name to papers the deputy secretary of transportation--the senior permanent employee at KDOT and, I think, the institutional successor to the state highway engineer--passes to him.

[kphoger]

Odd/Even numbering doesn't matter.

In both GSV shots shown below, the perspective is facing northbound.

New Madrid County, Missouri.
Northbound SSR-B at its northern terminus at MO-153.
Without cheating by looking at a map, tell me which way to turn for northbound MO-153.


Atascosa County, Texas.
Northbound FM-1333 at its junction with TX-173.
Without cheating by looking at a map, tell me which way to turn for northbound TX-173.

[formulanone]

Odd/Even numbering doesn't matter.

Atascosa County, Texas.
Northbound FM-1333 at its junction with TX-173.
Without cheating by looking at a map, tell me which way to turn for northbound TX-173.

I think 99% of the routes in Texas are either diagonals or zig-zags, and numbering order is pointless.

[kphoger]

numbering order is pointless

I agree with that statement in general.  Everywhere.

[Max Rockatansky]

numbering order is pointless

I agree with that statement in general.  Everywhere.

Numbering perfectionism has driven me into league with numbering chaos.  Chaos is infinitely more fun/interesting than order.