What state posts the worst control cities? The best?

Started by Roadgeekteen, April 13, 2021, 10:56:56 AM

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SkyPesos

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Is Rolla used as a primary control city or a secondary control city?  I mean, Illinois uses Cairo (pop. 2000) on some signs like this.
Primary, between some point in Springfield and MO 141 west of St Louis. East of MO 141, it uses Tulsa WB. Other small towns are used as secondaries, like St Clair for WB 44 on the eastern MO 100 interchange.


kphoger

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 02:39:37 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Is Rolla used as a primary control city or a secondary control city?  I mean, Illinois uses Cairo (pop. 2000) on some signs like this.

Primary, between some point in Springfield and MO 141 west of St Louis. East of MO 141, it uses Tulsa WB. Other small towns are used as secondaries, like St Clair for WB 44 on the eastern MO 100 interchange.

I've never really been clear on the matter, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.  (Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask a lot of questions.)  How can you tell the difference between a primary and a secondary control city?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

SkyPesos

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 02:52:33 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 02:39:37 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 01:08:52 PM
Is Rolla used as a primary control city or a secondary control city?  I mean, Illinois uses Cairo (pop. 2000) on some signs like this.

Primary, between some point in Springfield and MO 141 west of St Louis. East of MO 141, it uses Tulsa WB. Other small towns are used as secondaries, like St Clair for WB 44 on the eastern MO 100 interchange.

I've never really been clear on the matter, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.  (Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask a lot of questions.)  How can you tell the difference between a primary and a secondary control city?
I normally go by the one used at major (normally freeway-freeway interchanges) as the primary, and the others as the secondary. Though I'm new to this split too, as Ohio doesn't really sign secondary control cities, and I didn't pay attention to the control cities when I lived in Missouri.

As I mentioned above, I-70 WB in St Charles County also have a tertiary control city: Wentzville. This is the general pattern I see with which one gets used on I-70 WB between I-64 and the Missouri River:

Freeway interchanges (I-64, MO 370): Primary - Kansas City
Lettered and numbered non-freeway state routes: Secondary - Columbia
Numberless roads: Tertiary - Wentzville

webny99

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 02:52:33 PM
I've never really been clear on the matter, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.  (Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask a lot of questions.)  How can you tell the difference between a primary and a secondary control city?

The primary control city is the bottom line on the pull-through signs and post-interchange mileage signs. Anything else is secondary.

kphoger

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:07:05 PM
I normally go by the one used at major (normally freeway-freeway interchanges) as the primary, and the others as the secondary.

In that case, then...  what "major interchanges" are there between Saint Louis and Rolla, other than MO-141?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

SkyPesos

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:21:46 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:07:05 PM
I normally go by the one used at major (normally freeway-freeway interchanges) as the primary, and the others as the secondary.

In that case, then...  what "major interchanges" are there between Saint Louis and Rolla, other than MO-141?
All I think? Besides the MO 100 example, I see Rolla signed as the WB 44 control city between those two points consistently.

I'm new to this too, and explaining based off my observations. Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.

kphoger

#81
Quote from: webny99 on April 16, 2021, 03:21:13 PM

Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 02:52:33 PM
I've never really been clear on the matter, so forgive me if this is a stupid question.  (Remember, kids, there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask a lot of questions.)  How can you tell the difference between a primary and a secondary control city?

The primary control city is the bottom line on the pull-through signs and post-interchange mileage signs. Anything else is secondary.

In that case, it appears to happen ...

Update:  between Sullivan (Springfield 145) and Leasburg (Rolla 26).
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Or it's just a case of only the secondary control city being used through that stretch.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

I believe the signs for I-44 from US-65 in Springfield use St Louis rather than Rolla. Every other interchange in Springfield uses Rolla, though.
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webny99

IMO, Rolla is a quintessential secondary control city. It's more likely to be a waypoint than a destination, and it works well as the middle line on the post-interchange distance signs.

Like this, for example:

Cuba         XX
Rolla         XX
Springfield XX


Or, in the other direction:

St. Robert XX
Rolla         XX
St. Louis   XX

Revive 755

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:27:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 03:21:46 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 16, 2021, 03:07:05 PM
I normally go by the one used at major (normally freeway-freeway interchanges) as the primary, and the others as the secondary.

In that case, then...  what "major interchanges" are there between Saint Louis and Rolla, other than MO-141?
All I think? Besides the MO 100 example, I see Rolla signed as the WB 44 control city between those two points consistently.

I was going to say the interchange with US 50, but that one uses St. Clair for WB I-44

There is (was?) a lot of variation of control cities on I-44 with a number of tertiary control cities.

* The Stanton interchange uses Sullivan and St. Clair

* The western Sullivan interchange has St. Clair for EB and Cuba for WB

* The interchange at Bourbon has Sullivan and Cuba

achilles765

In my experiences Mississippi has some of the worst. I mean McComb? Brookhaven? Grenada? Laurel?

I think we do them pretty well here in Texas but then again we have a lot of big, major cities. Only California can compare. I mean we have Beaumont, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Austin, Laredo, Corpus Christi, Lubbock, Amarillo, Dallas, Fort Worth.
I love freeways and roads in any state but Texas will always be first in my heart

Scott5114

Quote from: achilles765 on April 17, 2021, 01:31:39 PM
In my experiences Mississippi has some of the worst. I mean McComb? Brookhaven? Grenada? Laurel?

I think we do them pretty well here in Texas but then again we have a lot of big, major cities. Only California can compare. I mean we have Beaumont, Houston, San Antonio, El Paso, Austin, Laredo, Corpus Christi, Lubbock, Amarillo, Dallas, Fort Worth.

Waco... Denton...
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sprjus4

I-35 between San Antonio and Dallas-Fort Worth should only use these cities:

San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth.

Not Waco.

ran4sh

Waco is large enough to have its own media market. I would say that Waco should be used southbound, but could be skipped going northbound (use Dallas/Fort Worth from Austin)

I agree that Denton shouldn't be a control city, but too many people, especially non-roadgeeks, have this weird idea that a route should actually reach a control city in order for that city to be posted. Which probably influenced the selection of Denton due to it being the end of I-35E and I-35W.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

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sprjus4

Quote from: ran4sh on April 17, 2021, 08:22:40 PM
Waco is large enough to have its own media market. I would say that Waco should be used southbound, but could be skipped going northbound (use Dallas/Fort Worth from Austin)
Not disagreeing, but the majority of through traffic on I-35 is destined to Austin or San Antonio, not Waco.

Northbound, it should be Austin, then Dallas, and vice versa Austin then San Antonio.

Scott5114

Quote from: ran4sh on April 17, 2021, 08:22:40 PM
I agree that Denton shouldn't be a control city, but too many people, especially non-roadgeeks, have this weird idea that a route should actually reach a control city in order for that city to be posted. Which probably influenced the selection of Denton due to it being the end of I-35E and I-35W.

Then shouldn't the southbound I-35W/E control city be Hillsboro, not Waco?

Signing Waco wouldn't be that much different than signing Norman between OKC and Dallas, and I think most people would agree that would be suboptimal.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

thspfc

Quote from: ran4sh on April 17, 2021, 08:22:40 PM
Waco is large enough to have its own media market. I would say that Waco should be used southbound, but could be skipped going northbound (use Dallas/Fort Worth from Austin)
San Antonio is 10 times bigger. That's all I have to say.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.

Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

Revive 755

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.

To me Gary would work since it has the interchanges with I-65 on both the Borman and Toll Road.

But if not Gary maybe Michigan City instead.  :spin:

ftballfan

Quote from: cabiness42 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.

Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.
Quite a few potential control cities would make some sense along at least part of 80/94 (such as Indianapolis, Detroit, South Bend, Toledo, or even Grand Rapids), but none fit perfectly.

Flint1979

There's a spot somewhere on the south side of Chicago that has the first mention of Detroit for I-94. Chicago is obviously mentioned in Detroit. I-75 being the first interchange that has Chicago signage.

I mentioned it before but I still can't figure out why INDOT wouldn't use South Bend instead of Toledo east of South Bend Toledo is fine.

Flint1979

Quote from: ftballfan on April 17, 2021, 10:59:29 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 17, 2021, 10:07:30 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 13, 2021, 10:56:45 PM
* Use Gary, IN instead of Indiana if wanting a closer destination, otherwise use South Bend or Toledo for I-80 and I-90.

Here's the problem with EB I-80/94 and I-90 in the Chicago area. The routes intersect and cross each other at Lake Station, so some of the EB traffic is going to follow 94 toward Detroit and the rest will follow 80/90 toward South Bend. Using either one as a control city disregards the traffic that will be heading toward the other. And that's not even taking into consideration traffic that's going to head south on 65.

Using a local destination like Gary doesn't work because there is no one predominant local destination.

Indiana really is about the best descriptor here.
Quite a few potential control cities would make some sense along at least part of 80/94 (such as Indianapolis, Detroit, South Bend, Toledo, or even Grand Rapids), but none fit perfectly.
I can't remember off the top of my head but isn't Holland used before Grand Rapids when you're going northbound on I-196? I'm thinking it should mention both cities.

achilles765

Quote from: sprjus4 on April 17, 2021, 03:42:46 PM
I-35 between San Antonio and Dallas-Fort Worth should only use these cities:

San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Fort Worth.

Not Waco.

I think the reasoning behind Waco is that it is very close to where IH 35 splits into IH 35E and IH 35W..  And Denton is where they rejoin.  That's the reason for those if I had to guess.  Plus Waco is also where IH 35 meets SH 6, an incredibly important corridor.   
I love freeways and roads in any state but Texas will always be first in my heart

roadman65

Who thought of Milford on I-84 in PA?

This one is worse than Waco in Texas. Milford is a small borough and no major crossroads there. Port Jervis in NY or Newburgh should be used.  It do t even have regional significance either.
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