My proposal for MLS revamp:
MLS will have 32 teams divided to 2 conferences of 16. Below it will be MLS 2, a 22-team league playing 42 games. It will have 8-team playoffs. There is promotion and relagation between these two leagues.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 12, 2022, 03:41:21 AM
My proposal for MLS revamp:
MLS will have 32 teams divided to 2 conferences of 16. Below it will be MLS 2, a 22-team league playing 42 games. It will have 8-team playoffs. There is promotion and relagation between these two leagues.
32 teams with 2 conferences is the likely outcome of the next few rounds of expansion.
An MLS-owned second division would be met with protests from USL, who could lobby USSF against the idea. Pro/rel ain't happening so long as investor-operators have tight control of the league's structure. It's also not palatable to fans, and with the thinner margins in American soccer it makes zero sense.
An actual MLS proposal:
bring back the dribbling PKs.
Quote from: Bruce on December 12, 2022, 04:39:38 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 12, 2022, 03:41:21 AM
My proposal for MLS revamp:
MLS will have 32 teams divided to 2 conferences of 16. Below it will be MLS 2, a 22-team league playing 42 games. It will have 8-team playoffs. There is promotion and relagation between these two leagues.
32 teams with 2 conferences is the likely outcome of the next few rounds of expansion.
An MLS-owned second division would be met with protests from USL, who could lobby USSF against the idea. Pro/rel ain't happening so long as investor-operators have tight control of the league's structure. It's also not palatable to fans, and with the thinner margins in American soccer it makes zero sense.
An actual MLS proposal: bring back the dribbling PKs.
Lower leagues could have pro/rel, e.g. between USL Championship and USL 1, as well as USL 1 and USL 2.
Relegation and promotion, while it makes a ton of sense, will never work in the US. Owners buy into franchises with the understanding that they will get TV money from the league they're buying into, not a second tier league.
Relegation is often brought up, both about soccer and about other sports. It has no application to North America. In Europe, national leagues represent neighborhoods or communities, not entire metro areas as in the USA. Do you want to explain to Fox that the league won't have a team in New York this coming year, but will have one in Boise?
Further, vis soccer in the USA, remember that the MLS is not real competition. Like the old CART auto racing series, it is a controlled competition/exhibition. The league owns all the teams and all the players work for the league. There is an "owner" of each team, but that is just for the media, that person really just owns a share of the whole league. While they are trying to win to some degree, it is not the same as 30 different owners, each trying to out do the others.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 12, 2022, 01:18:48 PM
Further, vis soccer in the USA, remember that the MLS is not real competition. Like the old CART auto racing series, it is a controlled competition/exhibition. The league owns all the teams and all the players work for the league. There is an "owner" of each team, but that is just for the media, that person really just owns a share of the whole league. While they are trying to win to some degree, it is not the same as 30 different owners, each trying to out do the others.
This is an absurd take. It's barely different from the models used by other top North American leagues, so are they mere exhibitions as well?
The league's front office doesn't control personnel decisions (only approving certain ones that might be disputed between teams), but does have players sign with them to allow for the standard American inter-team trades to operate in the normally open soccer market. The league has to move heaven and earth to oppose major decisions by owners (such as Precourt's attempt to move Columbus to Austin or Chivas USA's implosion), and it's very much treated as a last resort option.
It is not really a "take" at all, it is just facts.
The Cowboys belong to Jerry Jones, the Yankees to Steinbrenner's kids, the Mavericks to Cuban, etc. The players work for the teams. Each is an independent business trying to win. They share services, such as joint media deals, paying the referees, etc.
The soccer teams belong to the league, the players work for the league. Totally different. A controlled competition/exhibition.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 08:50:07 AM
It is not really a "take" at all, it is just facts.
The Cowboys belong to Jerry Jones, the Yankees to Steinbrenner's kids, the Mavericks to Cuban, etc. The players work for the teams. Each is an independent business trying to win. They share services, such as joint media deals, paying the referees, etc.
The soccer teams belong to the league, the players work for the league. Totally different. A controlled competition/exhibition.
A few years ago, you claimed that the NBA was as rigged as WWE. You appear to have changed your mind now.
Come back in a few years when you've changed your beliefs about MLS.
Quote from: SP Cook on December 13, 2022, 08:50:07 AM
It is not really a "take" at all, it is just facts.
The Cowboys belong to Jerry Jones, the Yankees to Steinbrenner's kids, the Mavericks to Cuban, etc. The players work for the teams. Each is an independent business trying to win. They share services, such as joint media deals, paying the referees, etc.
The soccer teams belong to the league, the players work for the league. Totally different. A controlled competition/exhibition.
If you don't believe two employees of the same company can compete against each other without the higher-ups "controlling" it, you must have been unemployed your entire life.
Blitz: The League (which came after the video game franchise lost its NFL license) showed players how a promotion/relegation system would work in American sports. Although now that I think about it, the closest thing we have is the market classifications of large, medium and small, but all the teams are still part of their respective leagues, and that's the way it will always be.
MLS is nothing like the European leagues, so that's a "hell no" to the idea.
Quote from: Bruce on December 12, 2022, 04:39:38 AM
An actual MLS proposal: bring back the dribbling PKs.
I could get behind that.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EECYoDoXkAEVeoc?format=jpg)
I would like to see a MLS-USL merger for sure because there are a lot of USL sides that are quite successful. That would be 65 teams total with one odd bottom feeder out.
I'd go with 2 divisions to start out, both under the MLS umbrella. At that point a Premier and Championship division could be formed with 32 teams each. (In accordance with US style, they could split into Eastern and Western conferences and maybe divisions thereafter - I'm not a stickler for single table.)
But any pro-rel moves in US soccer would have to be baby steps. A full-blown U.S. pyramid, mixing in the amateur teams, already exists but needs years to settle in to the possibility of winning promotion to and competing at a top level. That may not be possible, as England's pyramid has provided 130 years of prima facie evidence. But once in a while it happens. That's the magic of it.
Quote from: Road Hog on December 19, 2022, 02:51:23 AM
I would like to see a MLS-USL merger for sure because there are a lot of USL sides that are quite successful. That would be 65 teams total with one odd bottom feeder out.
I'd go with 2 divisions to start out, both under the MLS umbrella. At that point a Premier and Championship division could be formed with 32 teams each. (In accordance with US style, they could split into Eastern and Western conferences and maybe divisions thereafter - I'm not a stickler for single table.)
But any pro-rel moves in US soccer would have to be baby steps. A full-blown U.S. pyramid, mixing in the amateur teams, already exists but needs years to settle in to the possibility of winning promotion to and competing at a top level. That may not be possible, as England's pyramid has provided 130 years of prima facie evidence. But once in a while it happens. That's the magic of it.
"A lot of USL sides" is quite the overstatement. Only 5 teams drew more than 7,000 on average in 2022, which is about half of the worst non-Miami MLS team (Colorado). They aren't sustainable, they don't have the facilities required of a first-division team as laid out in the USSF standards, and whether they'd be able to afford the transfers needed to be competitive in MLS is yet to be seen.
If we were to have a pro/rel system, I'd rather have an aggregate table that doesn't immediately punish one bad season; only consistently shit teams should be booted down to the lower division (and hopefully not named in direct emulation of the English clusterfuck like USL did). While this kind of system can be abused (see Argentina), it's probably more fair.
A decent prototype would be a massive expansion of the U.S. Open Cup, which is currently the best way to see lower league teams take on MLS teams (and most often losing to their reserves). Have some MLS teams start a round earlier, bring in more teams within the regional brackets, and promote it on every avenue possible. Sadly, it seems that streaming rights for the tournament were awarded to HBO Max, which is an illogical place for live sports.
IMO, the most entertaining aspect of the US Open Cup is when a bad team wins it and earns a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League. A few years back, DC United won a grand total of three games in their entire MLS schedule, but they somehow won the US Open Cup that year (I remember well when they brought it to a Caps game and they then had the suite directly behind our seats). They lost in the Champions League quarterfinals the following year. A few years after that, they trailed against a beer league team from Baltimore before coming back to win.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 19, 2022, 07:40:58 AM
IMO, the most entertaining aspect of the US Open Cup is when a bad team wins it and earns a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League. A few years back, DC United won a grand total of three games in their entire MLS schedule, but they somehow won the US Open Cup that year (I remember well when they brought it to a Caps game and they then had the suite directly behind our seats). They lost in the Champions League quarterfinals the following year. A few years after that, they trailed against a beer league team from Baltimore before coming back to win.
US Open Cup should be renamed as it is not related to tennis tournament with same name. And soccer in US and Canada should be similar level as in Europe: every town, village and suburb should have own soccer club.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 19, 2022, 11:05:10 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 19, 2022, 07:40:58 AM
IMO, the most entertaining aspect of the US Open Cup is when a bad team wins it and earns a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League. A few years back, DC United won a grand total of three games in their entire MLS schedule, but they somehow won the US Open Cup that year (I remember well when they brought it to a Caps game and they then had the suite directly behind our seats). They lost in the Champions League quarterfinals the following year. A few years after that, they trailed against a beer league team from Baltimore before coming back to win.
US Open Cup should be renamed as it is not related to tennis tournament with same name. And soccer in US and Canada should be similar level as in Europe: every town, village and suburb should have own soccer club.
Who cares? There's also a golf tournament named the "U.S. Open" (the difference from the tennis is that golf uses those two periods in the name). It's not at all confusing to anybody other than, perhaps, trolling members on road fora.
Regarding Europe, who gives a rat's arse what Europe does? The United States and Canada are not Europe.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 19, 2022, 11:05:10 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 19, 2022, 07:40:58 AM
IMO, the most entertaining aspect of the US Open Cup is when a bad team wins it and earns a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League. A few years back, DC United won a grand total of three games in their entire MLS schedule, but they somehow won the US Open Cup that year (I remember well when they brought it to a Caps game and they then had the suite directly behind our seats). They lost in the Champions League quarterfinals the following year. A few years after that, they trailed against a beer league team from Baltimore before coming back to win.
US Open Cup should be renamed as it is not related to tennis tournament with same name. And soccer in US and Canada should be similar level as in Europe: every town, village and suburb should have own soccer club.
Tuktoyaktuk in the Northwest Territories could definitely use its own team, right after it gets its own interstate.
Quote from: SectorZ on December 19, 2022, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 19, 2022, 11:05:10 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 19, 2022, 07:40:58 AM
IMO, the most entertaining aspect of the US Open Cup is when a bad team wins it and earns a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League. A few years back, DC United won a grand total of three games in their entire MLS schedule, but they somehow won the US Open Cup that year (I remember well when they brought it to a Caps game and they then had the suite directly behind our seats). They lost in the Champions League quarterfinals the following year. A few years after that, they trailed against a beer league team from Baltimore before coming back to win.
US Open Cup should be renamed as it is not related to tennis tournament with same name. And soccer in US and Canada should be similar level as in Europe: every town, village and suburb should have own soccer club.
Tuktoyaktuk in the Northwest Territories could definitely use its own team, right after it gets its own interstate.
Well, it should have. And Utgiagvik, Inuvik, Iqaluit and Rankin Inlet.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 19, 2022, 11:05:10 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 19, 2022, 07:40:58 AM
IMO, the most entertaining aspect of the US Open Cup is when a bad team wins it and earns a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League. A few years back, DC United won a grand total of three games in their entire MLS schedule, but they somehow won the US Open Cup that year (I remember well when they brought it to a Caps game and they then had the suite directly behind our seats). They lost in the Champions League quarterfinals the following year. A few years after that, they trailed against a beer league team from Baltimore before coming back to win.
US Open Cup should be renamed as it is not related to tennis tournament with same name. And soccer in US and Canada should be similar level as in Europe: every town, village and suburb should have own soccer club.
The name is fine. It could be referred to as the Hunt Cup (since it was officially renamed for Lamar Hunt), but it's a non-issue.
The US and Canada are just too big to support the level of team density seen in Europe or South America. Travel costs are a huge reason why many lower level leagues are small or go bankrupt. There's few USL teams in the Northwest because we're so isolated, for example, while California is able to load up due to their close proximity between cities.
There should be many local soccer leagues. There should be 52 state soccer federations, one for each 50 state, plus two for California and Texas. Some states would run in summer (like MLS) and some in winter. There would be as many as 24 teams (with 46 games) in largest leagues. There would be promotion and relegation between all levels and leagues. It would be a tradition to play in Easter, Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 09:39:23 AM
There should be 52 state soccer federations, one for each 50 state, plus two for California and Texas.
54. Add DC and Puerto Rico, both of which have more people than the smallest state, and by a significant margin for Puerto Rico.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 09:39:23 AM
There should be many local soccer leagues. There should be 52 state soccer federations, one for each 50 state, plus two for California and Texas.
Maybe you should research a little before you spout off. There are at least 55 state soccer orgs now. OH, PA, NY, TX and CA are divided. I don't remember if DC has it's own soccer association.
Quote from: GaryV on February 26, 2023, 01:26:19 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 09:39:23 AM
There should be many local soccer leagues. There should be 52 state soccer federations, one for each 50 state, plus two for California and Texas.
Maybe you should research a little before you spout off. There are at least 55 state soccer orgs now. OH, PA, NY, TX and CA are divided. I don't remember if DC has it's own soccer association.
And IMHO, some local teams would likely do very well in a promotion and relegation system. Detroit City is one of them.
Mike
MLS proposal: sign Lionel Messi. Single best thing the league can do for its popularity.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 09:39:23 AM
There should be many local soccer leagues. There should be 52 state soccer federations, one for each 50 state, plus two for California and Texas. Some states would run in summer (like MLS) and some in winter. There would be as many as 24 teams (with 46 games) in largest leagues. There would be promotion and relegation between all levels and leagues. It would be a tradition to play in Easter, Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day.
Traditions like Thanksgiving Football have dated back from the early 1900s. No way you can start a new tradition that quickly. You seem to be suggesting that the US have Europe style soccer system. Those system are like hundreds of years old, a bit too late for that here.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 09:39:23 AM
There should be many local soccer leagues. There should be 52 state soccer federations, one for each 50 state, plus two for California and Texas. Some states would run in summer (like MLS) and some in winter. There would be as many as 24 teams (with 46 games) in largest leagues. There would be promotion and relegation between all levels and leagues. It would be a tradition to play in Easter, Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day.
So we'd copy the Brazil model, which is currently the source of many complaints about player fatigue due to an insane number of games per season? And with the roster depth that MLS doesn't have? You're off your rocker.
While pro/rel is still not on the table for anyone with financial sense, playing on certain holidays already happens. MLS regularly schedules Independence Day games (with the Rapids hosting their fireworks-after-game thing) and just moved El Trafico at the Rose Bowl to that day after having to postpone it from Saturday. There was also a Black Friday match in the playoffs that drew huge TV ratings (in part because it was on Fox proper), so that's also an option for a good MLS Cup or Conference Final.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 19, 2022, 11:05:10 AM
every town, village and suburb should have own soccer club.
Do you think 90-year-old Elsie Eiler of Monowi, Nebraska, is up for running an entire soccer team by herself?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Population_sign%2C_Monowi%2C_Nebraska%2C_USA.jpg)
(Her husband, the other guy on this sign, is ineligible to play on account of being dead.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 27, 2023, 05:25:55 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on December 19, 2022, 11:05:10 AM
every town, village and suburb should have own soccer club.
Do you think 90-year-old Elsie Eiler of Monowi, Nebraska, is up for running an entire soccer team by herself?
-image cut-
(Her husband, the other guy on this sign, is ineligible to play on account of being dead.)
You know my sister?
Quote from: Bruce on February 27, 2023, 02:49:53 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 09:39:23 AM
There should be many local soccer leagues. There should be 52 state soccer federations, one for each 50 state, plus two for California and Texas. Some states would run in summer (like MLS) and some in winter. There would be as many as 24 teams (with 46 games) in largest leagues. There would be promotion and relegation between all levels and leagues. It would be a tradition to play in Easter, Memorial Day, Independence Day and Labor Day.
So we'd copy the Brazil model, which is currently the source of many complaints about player fatigue due to an insane number of games per season? And with the roster depth that MLS doesn't have? You're off your rocker.
While pro/rel is still not on the table for anyone with financial sense, playing on certain holidays already happens. MLS regularly schedules Independence Day games (with the Rapids hosting their fireworks-after-game thing) and just moved El Trafico at the Rose Bowl to that day after having to postpone it from Saturday. There was also a Black Friday match in the playoffs that drew huge TV ratings (in part because it was on Fox proper), so that's also an option for a good MLS Cup or Conference Final.
The 46 games is good, English Championship plays so many games. And There should be promotion tournament to ULS League Two.