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[Avalanchez71]

So isn't US 412 already four lanes across this path anyway?  What is the necessity of slapping an interstate sign up and closing off access to property? 

[sprjus4]

So isn't US 412 already four lanes across this path anyway?  What is the necessity of slapping an interstate sign up and closing off access to property?

A lot of the route is already built to freeway standards, the remainder is still non-limited-access divided, then the route still goes through the towns of Siloam Springs and Tontitown / Springdale. Those towns need to be bypassed at a minimum, then at that point it's a matter of simply closing the gaps between the freeways to provide a consistent design section, and then simply establishing an interstate highway designation.

It's a logical corridor connecting the two cities, IMO, and many would agree, can't expect much from an anti-roads person though, so I mean 

[Avalanchez71]

So isn't US 412 already four lanes across this path anyway?  What is the necessity of slapping an interstate sign up and closing off access to property?

A lot of the route is already built to freeway standards, the remainder is still non-limited-access divided, then the route still goes through the towns of Siloam Springs and Tontitown / Springdale. Those towns need to be bypassed at a minimum, then at that point it's a matter of simply closing the gaps between the freeways to provide a consistent design section, and then simply establishing an interstate highway designation.

It's a logical corridor connecting the two cities, IMO, and many would agree, can't expect much from an anti-roads person though, so I mean 

Well they did have build something in NWA.  That was a surprise growth area.  Now you have folks that know the limitations and the growth factors.  You have to get off the big road at some time.  I know some folks want a fully-controlled access highway to their door but really the access is already now built in.

[edwaleni]

The recent AADT studies on US-412 don't seem to justify upgrades to interstate standards between Ash Flat and Mountain Home. AADT is around 4000.

But that didn't stop ArDOT from upgrading the Walnut Ridge to Paragould ROW to a 4 lane freeway 2 years ago. It had similar usage.

The only issues is where the ROW goes through city centers. So perhaps bypasses are in order, not a wholesale upgrade.

http://www.ahtd.state.ar.us/public_meetings/2018/012313/AADT.pdf

If anything US-412 needs some safety upgrades east of Mountain Home. The geometry and sight lines are terrible in many places and represents very old highway engineering.

[Scott5114]

It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.

I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.

Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything? 

Oklahoma hasn't added a new interstate designation to a road since 1982, as far as I know. (I-235 was completed and signed after that, but it was in the Green Book so I'm not counting it.) Most new freeway corridors have carried state route numbers (SH-152, SH-74) or been unnumbered turnpikes.

So y'all should hush and let us have this one.

[mvak36]

It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.

I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.

Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything? 

Oklahoma hasn't added a new interstate designation to a road since 1982, as far as I know. (I-235 was completed and signed after that, but it was in the Green Book so I'm not counting it.) Most new freeway corridors have carried state route numbers (SH-152, SH-74) or been unnumbered turnpikes.

So y'all should hush and let us have this one.

I'm okay with it. I think they should keep going and get an interstate number for the Creek, Muskogee, and Kickapoo Turnpikes  .

[I-55]

It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.

I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.

Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything?

Most non-interstate freeways are named toll roads in OK, and there aren't many non-interstate freeways in AR. The main difference between NC and AR is that NC goes 3di crazy (I-840, I-785, I-587, I-274, I-295, I/NC-540) whereas AR is mostly building new 2dis (I-57, I-49, I-69, and potentially the Tulsa-NWA route)

[bugo]

Who cares? That didn't stop I-135 from being designated over US-81.

Technically, I-35W was designated over US 81. I-135 replaced I-35W. I-35W wasn't changed to I-135 until 1976.

[bwana39]

Guys... You are missing the trees because you see the forest.

One word explains why this is progressing and why it will happen if every other road project in Oklahoma and Arkansas grinds to a halt.


WALMART

[MikieTimT]

Guys... You are missing the trees because you see the forest.

One word explains why this is progressing and why it will happen if every other road project in Oklahoma and Arkansas grinds to a halt.


WALMART

And I'll give you 2 more.  Tyson and J.B. Hunt.  Like it or not, Fortune 500 companies have some pull with the jobs and tax revenue they provide.  Lots of trucks are run by those 3 companies as well.  Not to mention, there aren't many over half million people metros this close to each other in the eastern half of the U.S. that aren't connected by an Interstate or freeway of some sort.  I just wish they would have bypassed Siloam Springs back when they 6-laned it.  Would have been a cheaper and easier job then than it will be when it comes to pass.  Another reason why this will likely occur is that NWA has become a Top 90 MSA now with the continued rapid growth, which has recently just exploded in the last few months.  In fact, it just passed LR as the largest in Arkansas.  Knew it was coming, but it's finally come to pass.  LR may be the capital and very well represented with Interstates (and continued attention from ARDOT), but NWA will start to get more federal attention given its size and growth rate. 

[bwana39]

Guys... You are missing the trees because you see the forest.

One word explains why this is progressing and why it will happen if every other road project in Oklahoma and Arkansas grinds to a halt.


WALMART

And I'll give you 2 more.  Tyson and J.B. Hunt.  Like it or not, Fortune 500 companies have some pull with the jobs and tax revenue they provide.  Lots of trucks are run by those 3 companies as well.  Not to mention, there aren't many over half million people metros this close to each other in the eastern half of the U.S. that aren't connected by an Interstate or freeway of some sort.  I just wish they would have bypassed Siloam Springs back when they 6-laned it.  Would have been a cheaper and easier job then than it will be when it comes to pass.  Another reason why this will likely occur is that NWA has become a Top 90 MSA now with the continued rapid growth, which has recently just exploded in the last few months.  In fact, it just passed LR as the largest in Arkansas.  Knew it was coming, but it's finally come to pass.  LR may be the capital and very well represented with Interstates (and continued attention from ARDOT), but NWA will start to get more federal attention given its size and growth rate.

Yes, I generally don't list JB Hunt and I mention Tyson and University of Arkansas. U of A is not a part of the Oklahoma equation.

As to the seeming need, all you need to do is look at Austin and see that it is not always that easy. Austin to Houston. Austin to I-10, etc. I heard someone say (not entirely as a joke) that the only reason Austin had I-35 is because it lies between Waco and San Antonio.

[Avalanchez71]

There is no love lost for Austin in Texas.

[edwaleni]

I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.

Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions.  Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.

I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.

Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.

A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.

[MikieTimT]

I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.

Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions.  Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.

I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.

Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.

A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.

If anyone came from the east, they would likely be coming I-40/I-49 currently as US-412 east of Harrison is not a particularly great truck route until it merges with US-63.  There are a great number of distribution centers in NWA for Wal-Mart, not just one.  And Tyson as well as several other poultry/meat processing companies produce a great deal of product in Springdale/Benton County.  Bentonville is growing into a mountain biking mecca, to the point that folks are coming for weeks on end from states out west that most people think of more regularly as mountain biking destinations.  I'm working on a house there right now to AirBnB out as it no longer makes financial sense as a long term rental.  Things are rapidly transforming away from the tired old stereotypes of what most people think of when Arkansas comes up in conversation, and the growth isn't going to slow down.  Nothing but cranes, red dirt, and building/home frames as far as the eye can see.  Most of that stuff comes in by truck, so regardless of whether things are destined or sourced by Wal-Mart or the meat processing industry, there's more trucks up here than you'd think, and more congestion to boot.  This proposal isn't the pork that you think it is.  It's overdue.  Now, other segments of US-412, there are certainly some arguments to be made due to AADT.  But AR-612/US-412 west of Lowell/Springdale certainly has the density.

[BigOkie]

Arkansas Senators John Boozman and Tom Cotton plus Senator Jim Inhoffe of Oklahoma are proposing an upgrade
US 412 as an interstate Highway from I-35 to I-49.

I don't see why it's needed. Looks to me they are wasting time and effort .

I don't.  Given that I travel from Tulsa to Bentonville no fewer than four times a year the section between West Siloam Springs and Springdale/I-49 is hell if you hit it at the wrong time of day.  Siloam Springs itself can grind to a halt.  Not so bad once you get east of Tontitown but then Springdale is its own mess.  They're already building a 412 northern bypass in Springdale to alleviate that and it could be built to interstate standards.  Much of it is already completed as AR-612.

[andy3175]

It could be interstate quality road but keeps it as US 412.

I didn't realize US 412 was in Michigan or Ohio.

Do OK and AR fall into the NC pattern of "Interstate-izing" everything? 

Oklahoma hasn't added a new interstate designation to a road since 1982, as far as I know. (I-235 was completed and signed after that, but it was in the Green Book so I'm not counting it.) Most new freeway corridors have carried state route numbers (SH-152, SH-74) or been unnumbered turnpikes.

So y'all should hush and let us have this one.

Another example of a proposed Interstate in Oklahoma was considered in 1991, when Section 1074 of ISTEA included a future Interstate corridor along US 69 north of the Texas-Oklahoma state line: "upon the request of the Oklahoma State highway agency, the Secretary shall designate the portion of United States Route 69 from the Oklahoma–Texas State line to Checotah in the State of Oklahoma as a part of the Interstate System." Since this upgrade hasn't happened in 30 years, I'm not sure there's haste in Oklahoma to add more Interstate highways.

SM-G975U

[edwaleni]

I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.

Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions.  Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.

I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.

Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.

A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.

If anyone came from the east, they would likely be coming I-40/I-49 currently as US-412 east of Harrison is not a particularly great truck route until it merges with US-63.  There are a great number of distribution centers in NWA for Wal-Mart, not just one.  And Tyson as well as several other poultry/meat processing companies produce a great deal of product in Springdale/Benton County.  Bentonville is growing into a mountain biking mecca, to the point that folks are coming for weeks on end from states out west that most people think of more regularly as mountain biking destinations.  I'm working on a house there right now to AirBnB out as it no longer makes financial sense as a long term rental.  Things are rapidly transforming away from the tired old stereotypes of what most people think of when Arkansas comes up in conversation, and the growth isn't going to slow down.  Nothing but cranes, red dirt, and building/home frames as far as the eye can see.  Most of that stuff comes in by truck, so regardless of whether things are destined or sourced by Wal-Mart or the meat processing industry, there's more trucks up here than you'd think, and more congestion to boot.  This proposal isn't the pork that you think it is.  It's overdue.  Now, other segments of US-412, there are certainly some arguments to be made due to AADT.  But AR-612/US-412 west of Lowell/Springdale certainly has the density.

Thanks for the update.  I think a lot of people can't fathom or understand what actually comes and goes out of NWA besides the Big 3.

I don't dispute the traffic on US-412 around Siloam Springs, I was there 2 years ago (recommend Barnett's Dairyette) and yes, it gets bad. Upgrades, yes. Interstate? That is what I am struggling with.

[bwana39]

  https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29408.msg2619225#msg2619225
seeking interstate upgrade of US 412
« on: May 26, 2021, 08:24:16 PM »
since there's plans for a I-42 already in the books, what are the options for an east west route between Springdale and Tulsa between I-40 and 44?  Much of it is already turnpike in OK

It could be an IH-X44, IH-X49, or as a stretch an IH-X57.  As a real stretch, it could be a continuation of IH-555.  The X-49 and X-44 are viable. The others fall into the built all the way across Arkansas realm.
There is not a good 2DI for this one.  The sacrosanct IH-50 or a IH-3X. Either of those is outside their grid. If I-50 progressed past Tulsa, it could be grid compliant.

Even if  it were brought to IH standards, it would probably  remain the misplaced IH-412.

[bwana39]

I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.

Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions.  Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.

I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.

Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.

A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.

Me thinks you underestimate the size of the Walmart distribution operation and ancillaries around Bentonville. That said I agree there is more than just them in that area. To add another of several, FedEx Freight is based in nearby Harrison.

Hershey didn't buy Mars.  There was a proposed sale of Hershey to Nestle that failed to be completed several years ago.

In the US, Nestle no longer markets candy.

Mars and Hershey are less conjoined since the 00's as Mars quit buying their bulk chocolate from Hershey. 

Not sure exactly what his job change was over, but.....  Perhaps he was a Nestle Rep and took a job with either Hershey or Mars.  Perhaps he worked for a rep firm that traded alliances????

[MikieTimT]

I would say Walmart too as a driver for this except, it's just the HQ and a distribution center.

Walmart doesn't *make* anything there except decisions.  Most of the reps that resell through Walmart, live there or grudgingly fly in every week/month.

I knew the Hershey's rep for Walmart who used to be the Mars rep until Hershey's bought them out.

Walmart was constantly nagging him to move to NWA so they could make "faster decisions" and he kept telling them I can make the same decisions by cell phone or email just as fast. He finally retired.

A large HQ and a SEC size public university can justify an upgrade in the area. But i don't see droves of trucks, buses, commuters coming from the east just to deal with Walmart, Tyson or JB Hunt.

If anyone came from the east, they would likely be coming I-40/I-49 currently as US-412 east of Harrison is not a particularly great truck route until it merges with US-63.  There are a great number of distribution centers in NWA for Wal-Mart, not just one.  And Tyson as well as several other poultry/meat processing companies produce a great deal of product in Springdale/Benton County.  Bentonville is growing into a mountain biking mecca, to the point that folks are coming for weeks on end from states out west that most people think of more regularly as mountain biking destinations.  I'm working on a house there right now to AirBnB out as it no longer makes financial sense as a long term rental.  Things are rapidly transforming away from the tired old stereotypes of what most people think of when Arkansas comes up in conversation, and the growth isn't going to slow down.  Nothing but cranes, red dirt, and building/home frames as far as the eye can see.  Most of that stuff comes in by truck, so regardless of whether things are destined or sourced by Wal-Mart or the meat processing industry, there's more trucks up here than you'd think, and more congestion to boot.  This proposal isn't the pork that you think it is.  It's overdue.  Now, other segments of US-412, there are certainly some arguments to be made due to AADT.  But AR-612/US-412 west of Lowell/Springdale certainly has the density.

Thanks for the update.  I think a lot of people can't fathom or understand what actually comes and goes out of NWA besides the Big 3.

I don't dispute the traffic on US-412 around Siloam Springs, I was there 2 years ago (recommend Barnett's Dairyette) and yes, it gets bad. Upgrades, yes. Interstate? That is what I am struggling with.

You're certainly welcome.  Things are changing so fast in Benton County right now that even if you came every 6 months, you'd be shocked at the progress.

I get that at this point that other than the segments between Lowell and the OK border, and the portion around Tulsa are the only ones that appear to have the AATD to justify an Interstate designation.  I personally don't care whether it's 2DI or 3DI, but at least in AR, rural Interstate segments have a 10 MPH greater speed limit, which mostly has the effect of making for shorter travel times until congestion builds too much.  The AR-612 segment that is the US-412 Springdale Northern Bypass that's already open is constructed to Interstate standards, and the other 2 upcoming segments will be as well.  US-412 west of the end of the bypass is just 4 lane 65MPH with at-grade crossings for 15 miles.  Old AR-68 can serve somewhat as access for most property along there, but there likely would need to be a couple of exits between ends of the old highway for any conversion to limited access.  And then there's the whole bypassing of Siloam Springs to contend with.  They'd better get a move-on with any property acquisition there as my sister-in-law lives north of Siloam Springs, so I drive the area regularly, and there's several subdivisions in the works between her and town, so it's going to get expensive before too long.

[Bobby5280]

I don't dispute the traffic on US-412 around Siloam Springs, I was there 2 years ago (recommend Barnett's Dairyette) and yes, it gets bad. Upgrades, yes. Interstate? That is what I am struggling with.

Whether the corridor would carry an Interstate designation or not anything less than an Interstate quality super highway between I-44 in Tulsa and I-49 in Springdale is just silly. The NWA region may lack a single nationally recognizable giant-sized city, but the cluster of small cities all add up to something that feels like a giant metro anyway, including LOTS of traffic. It's similar to the big cluster of Rio Grande Valley cities in the far South end of Texas, but with a higher average income level.

Pieces of this possible future Interstate corridor have already been falling into place. The first segment of the Springdale Bypass (AR-612) is open. So the connection to I-49 is done. Now they have to extend the freeway West to US-412. This Interstate corridor legislation might help spur progress.

A new bypass around Siloam Springs is the biggest, most difficult to build, missing link on this corridor. And a freeway bypass around Siloam Springs is 100% justified. I've driven the existing road a few times. The traffic gets pretty ridiculous. How to resolve the connection thru or around Dripping Springs to the Cherokee Turnpike is another hurdle, but not as bad is Siloam Springs.

US-412 West of the Cherokee Turnpike to I-44 is a 27 mile long stretch, but one that would be simple to upgrade to Interstate standards compared to a Siloam Springs bypass project. The upgrade would be as easy as the US-71/I-49 conversion project in Western Missouri. Just eliminate the at-grade intersections with a few more diamond exits or just bridges over the highway. Looking closely at the satellite view of US-412 in that area it's easy to see where ROW is already reserved for some future freeway exits (S4115 Rd, S4140 Rd, S4160 Rd, S4170 Rd, S4240 Rd).

[sprjus4]

US-412 between Tulsa and the Cherokee Turnpike is built on a limited access right of way, meaning there's no private driveways, only crossroads. Additionally, a few of the major intersections are either already grade-separated interchanges or have right of way for future interchanges.

This should be easiest, not already freeway standard, segment to upgrade. Comparable to US-60 in Missouri for the I-57 corridor.

[sprjus4]

  https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29408.msg2619225#msg2619225
seeking interstate upgrade of US 412
« on: May 26, 2021, 08:24:16 PM »
since there's plans for a I-42 already in the books, what are the options for an east west route between Springdale and Tulsa between I-40 and 44?  Much of it is already turnpike in OK

It could be an IH-X44, IH-X49, or as a stretch an IH-X57.  As a real stretch, it could be a continuation of IH-555.  The X-49 and X-44 are viable. The others fall into the built all the way across Arkansas realm.
There is not a good 2DI for this one.  The sacrosanct IH-50 or a IH-3X. Either of those is outside their grid. If I-50 progressed past Tulsa, it could be grid compliant.

Even if  it were brought to IH standards, it would probably  remain the misplaced IH-412.

I-x57 or I-555 are simply never going to happen. I doubt there will be anything resembling an interstate highway built east of Springdale. I-x44 or I-x49 could work in theory, but for the whole corridor between I-35 and I-49, that's 190 miles. It would be the longest 3di in existence, taking I-476's place. Not saying it's not possible, but more likely given it's connecting two states, two interstate highways, and that length, it'll be an I-4x.

[The Ghostbuster]

If this Interstate proposal does go through (which I'm not entirely sure that it should), maybe they should focus on upgrading and designating the Interstate 35-to-Interstate 244 first, and then focus on upgrading the Interstate 44-to-Interstate 49 segment subsequently. Also, if it goes through, I'd number the corridor Interstate 46.

[Avalanchez71]

Some folks just don't want their property taken up as freely as all these proposals I see around here.