Largest Cities Without an Interstate Connection

[Beltway]

It is not "$20-$30", stop posting propaganda.

For the stretch between Stafford and I-495, it is at least $20 most of the time.
Already refuted many times.

My experience on I-95, ranging $13 (rounded) to $27 and an average of $18, mostly in and around peak hours.  Twice $0 because the GP lanes were free flowing, that would bring that average down.

Entry Date and Time   Plaza Facility   Toll Paid
3/29/2019 7:56:12 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -12.30
4/1/2019 3:50:11 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -25.15
4/12/2019 8:25:02 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -14.90
4/23/2019 9:12:33 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -23.85
4/23/2019 7:01:53 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -14.65
5/2/2019 7:23:04 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -15.60
5/2/2019 9:22:00 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -18.85
5/14/2019 4:38:14 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -27.50
5/14/2019 9:02:51 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -22.80
5/28/2019 8:57:00 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -23.05
5/28/2019 7:20:12 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -13.80
6/6/2019 7:17:48 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -15.70
6/11/2019 9:07:12 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -18.90
6/21/2019 8:14:08 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -16.50

In 2018, purely long distance trips --
3/23/2018 8:42:35 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -14.75
5/2/2018 2:23:20 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -9.95
6/22/2018 8:42:09 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -14.30
6/25/2018 2:54:08 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -14.50
9/21/2018 8:17:49 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -14.75
9/24/2018 2:58:25 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -15.25
10/23/2018 10:41:04 AM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -8.10
10/24/2018 3:41:38 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -20.80
11/22/2018 1:17:50 PM   95 EXPRESS LANES   -9.25

[hotdogPi]

You can't take a simple average here. 3 PM to 5 PM is more expensive than the entire morning.

[RoadMaster09]

This route is also the fastest (unless Richmond, DC, and Baltimore have virtually no traffic).

Even at midnight, I-64 to I-95 is 35 minutes slower.

I plan on trying it eventually though, just to see what I'm "missing out" on by taking US-13, US-113, and DE-1.

Richmond isn't a big issue on traffic though, thanks to I-295. Baltimore isn't too much an issue - it's mostly the mess that is I-95 through Northern Virginia and Southern Maryland, though mostly Northern Virginia.

And I'm not going to pay $37 for a HO/T trip (this was the toll the other day between Stafford and I-495).

The only thing about US-13 and US-113 that gets annoying is the continuous 55 mph speed limit, but other than that, still better considering there's no good interstate alternative, and it's traffic-free. Once on DE-1 though, back up to 65 mph and cruising at interstate speeds.

If the I-64 and I-95 routing was closer in and only 5-10 minutes slower, and a bypass existed around DC / Baltimore, I'd probably use that despite the additional mileage / time. But 35 minutes - 2 hours slower isn't worth it on an average trip - unless I purposely wanted to go that way for a specific reason.

If at least Virginia would raise the rural stretches of US-13 to 60 mph, and maybe Maryland with US-113 and US-13, it would be slightly better.

I'd argue for 65 mph on the rural sections of those highways. Also, the DE-1 tollway should be 70 mph easily (probably the only highway in Delaware where such is warranted).

[Beltway]

You can't take a simple average here. 3 PM to 5 PM is more expensive than the entire morning.

This isn't meant to be scientific, I am merely showing the activity of one long-distance traveler, the tolls paid, and stating that these prices are worth it for me.

Another person would have different experiences.

I entered this discussion when someone posted "$37" as somehow being what I-95 HOT lanes would cost for someone traveling between Norfolk and Philadelphia.  GARBAGE!

[sprjus4]

I entered this discussion when someone posted "$37" as somehow being what I-95 HOT lanes would cost for someone traveling between Norfolk and Philadelphia.  GARBAGE!

During afternoon peak hours, $20 - $30 is the average toll, and yesterday it was $37 for the entire duration. A day that a lot of long-distance trips would be happening, before July 4th - a day a lot of long-distance traffic would be presented the opportunity to pay that much to bypass the traffic.

My scenario would have been 100% factual for yesterday, and maybe over exaggerated for another afternoon rush hour, but not by much.

Sorry to ruin your love-affair with Transurban, VDOT, and HO/T lanes.

[sprjus4]

GARBAGE!

You're way too defensive about these projects, like someone whose interests are being directly affected in a negative way by opposition to such projects.  Maybe you need to step back from your computer and take a break.

[AlexandriaVA]

HOT lanes are an efficient way to guarantee free-flowing conditions in major metropolitan areas, and should be pursued by all of the major metropolitan areas in the US on congested corridors.

[sprjus4]

My experience on I-95, ranging $13 (rounded) to $27 and an average of $18, mostly in and around peak hours.  Twice $0 because the GP lanes were free flowing, that would bring that average down.

<snip>

Did some math and calculated the average toll per hourly period. This assumes all of the toll trips you posted where from the entire duration from I-495 to the southern end in Stafford and not cut short anywhere.

• Avg Toll 7-8 am - $12.30
• Avg Toll 8-9 am - $16.38
• Avg Toll 9-10 am - $21.46
• Avg Toll 10-11 am - $8.10
• Avg Toll 11-12 am - N/A
• Avg Toll 12-1 pm - N/A
• Avg Toll 1-2 pm - $9.25
• Avg Toll 2-3 pm - $13.23
• Avg Toll 3-4 pm - $22.98
• Avg Toll 4-5 pm - $22.80
• Avg Toll 5-6 pm - N/A
• Avg Toll 6-7 pm - N/A
• Avg Toll 7-8 pm - $15.75

All you did was prove my point. Tolls are $20 - $30 during peak hours.

It'd be nice if Transurban provided a historic toll calculator like VDOT does for the I-64 HO/T lanes. I can go back to any date and time and see what the toll was for then.

HOT lanes are an efficient way to guarantee free-flowing conditions in major metropolitan areas, and should be pursued by all of the major metropolitan areas in the US on congested corridors.

A) Not with tax-payer dollars which is what's happening in Hampton Roads - private funds only should be used - agree with that aspect of the I-95 / I-495 HO/T lanes.
B) The needs of the general purpose lanes should not be ignored as well. I-95 still needs a general purpose expansion to 4-lanes each way.
C) No compensation should be given to Transurban if general purpose projects are put forward, like GP lane widening - this is something VDOT and legislators in Richmond agreed to which further hinders any GP lane widening.

I'll support HO/T lanes to an extent. The concept is okay if done properly and in a method like I indicated above. They should act as a private toll road in the median that don't interfere or hinder any GP projects, which is what these are doing. VDOT has already shot down a local request from SmartScale to widen I-95 to 8 GP lanes due to the fact that compensation would be required to Transurban.

And for the record, HO/T lanes should only be used if the corridor in question is 6-8 lanes. Don't put HO/T lanes on a rural 4-lane freeway design in a major metropolitan area and call that a solution when a GP expansion to 6-8 lanes first could solve the issues equally. This is what's happening on the HRBT and I-64 High Rise corridor in Hampton Roads.

[Beltway]

My experience on I-95, ranging $13 (rounded) to $27 and an average of $18, mostly in and around peak hours.  Twice $0 because the GP lanes were free flowing, that would bring that average down.

Did some math and calculated the average toll per hourly period. This assumes all of the toll trips you posted where from the entire duration from I-495 to the southern end in Stafford and not cut short anywhere.
[....]
All you did was prove my point. Tolls are $20 - $30 during peak hours.

You keep moving the goal posts.  Three different quotes from previous statements of yours:

This route is also the fastest (unless Richmond, DC, and Baltimore have virtually no traffic).

And I'm not going to pay $37 for a HO/T trip

The $14 toll on the CBBT is far more worth it than $20-$30 on the HO/T lanes.

For the stretch between Stafford and I-495, it is at least $20 most of the time.

None of them (including in their context) mention "peak hours", and only the last restricts it to anything less than 24/7/365.

The point being that for one long distance traveler over a year and a half my tolls have not averaged nearly what you claim.

The vast majority of hours in a 24 hour day are not "peak hours", and you shouldn't suggest that a traveler will pay peak period tolls whenever they travel.

Of course I could also suggest that a shark shouldn't eat chum, but I don't think that would have much influence.

[webny99]

Phoenix and New York are the largest in the country actually, unless you back track. The gap is north of Phoenix.

There are plenty of all-interstate routes.
If the fastest route isn't all-interstate, what are the major cities that flank the non-freeway segment?
In this case, the gap is between Phoenix and Holbrook, and the next major city in that direction is Albuquerque. So Phoenix > Albuquerque would be the nominee for the thread. You don't just skip over major cities, much less 3/4 of the country. This has been a recurring issue in this thread; I don't get what's so complicated about the concept of looking specifically at the area where the missing freeway is.

[sprjus4]

Usually traffic conditions this afternoon.

[Beltway]

Usually traffic conditions this afternoon.

You aren't forced to take them at a Friday afternoon peak. 
Heavy commuter local traffic SB, and lots of inter-state traffic heading SB out of Washington area for the weekend.

My last trip --
Monday, July 8
95 NB  VA-610 to I-495  $14.90  enter 8:49 am
95 SB  I-495 to VA-610   $6.90   enter 8:40 pm

[tolbs17]

Fresno, CA and Greenville, NC have no interstate connection.

[kphoger]

I was recently surprised to see that driving from Buffalo to NYC means you either (a) drive 40+ miles of two-lane US-20-Alt in order to reach I-390, or else (b) drive 25 miles out of the way through Syracuse.

[webny99]

I was recently surprised to see that driving from Buffalo to NYC means you either (a) drive 40+ miles of two-lane US-20-Alt in order to reach I-390, or else (b) drive 25 miles out of the way through Syracuse.

You can also use NY 63 to cut the corner.
Trucks are banned from US 20A in Warsaw, so Thruway Exit 48A (NY 77) to US 20 to NY 63 to to NY 36 to I-390 Exit 6 is a very popular truck route.

But yeah, with all my grumblings and fictional proposals, I'm glad to see it being noticed! Buffalo to Washington is one worse, but that's not something a single state can fix..

[vdeane]

I was recently surprised to see that driving from Buffalo to NYC means you either (a) drive 40+ miles of two-lane US-20-Alt in order to reach I-390, or else (b) drive 25 miles out of the way through Syracuse.

When I ran the directions, the Syracuse one was the transit routing.  Interestingly, taking US 20A is only 4 minutes shorter than going through Syracuse (which is itself 5 minutes shorter than NY 63).

Fun fact: the removal of I-81 in Syracuse will make that route 10 minutes longer.

[tolbs17]

I was recently surprised to see that driving from Buffalo to NYC means you either (a) drive 40+ miles of two-lane US-20-Alt in order to reach I-390, or else (b) drive 25 miles out of the way through Syracuse.

Fun fact: the removal of I-81 in Syracuse will make that route 10 minutes longer.

Should it be demolished or have a new tunnel go under it to have more development? Freeways that are too close to downtown is terrible.

[webny99]

Fun fact: the removal of I-81 in Syracuse will make that route 10 minutes longer.

This might sound like an absurd thing to say, but I could see removal of the viaduct significantly increasing traffic on I-390 and I-86, thus improving the struggling economies of the Southern Tier.

Should it be demolished or have a new tunnel go under it to have more development? Freeways that are too close to downtown is terrible.

What's wrong with a new viaduct, and what's so terrible about freeways close to downtown? That's where the highest concentration of commuters work, after all.

[Rothman]

Fun fact: the removal of I-81 in Syracuse will make that route 10 minutes longer.

This might sound like an absurd thing to say, but I could see removal of the viaduct significantly increasing traffic on I-390 and I-86, thus improving the struggling economies of the Southern Tier.

Yeah, that's pretty absurd.  I don't see much economic benefit or even traffic diverting to such an extreme just because a small segment of I-81 in Syracuse doesn't exist any longer to that extreme.

Keep in mind I-86 was already supposed to help out the Southern Tier.  That alleged benefit (even if you go with a smaller number than the few billion the exaggerated official study claimed) hasn't been realized as of yet.

(personal opinion emphasized)

[bing101]

Bakersfield to Fresno does not have an interstate connection but it's via CA-99. The I-7/I-9 discussions have been around for sometime though.

[thspfc]

Bakersfield to Fresno does not have an interstate connection but it's via CA-99. The I-7/I-9 discussions have been around for sometime though.

CA-99 seems like a similar situation to I-41, where a direct connection between two larger cities (Milwaukee to Green Bay for I-41 and Sacramento to LA for CA-99) ended up bypassing smaller cities, and then a freeway connecting those smaller cities was later considered for an Interstate. I'm in favor of I-7 for the corridor.

[AlexandriaVA]

Who cares if Buffalo-DC has an inefficient routing? There's no demand for an improved routing that way, for that long of a stretch. Last I checked, there's not much of anything in central NY State, northern PA, etc. Lots of money for little gain.

[vdeane]

Fun fact: the removal of I-81 in Syracuse will make that route 10 minutes longer.

This might sound like an absurd thing to say, but I could see removal of the viaduct significantly increasing traffic on I-390 and I-86, thus improving the struggling economies of the Southern Tier.

Yeah, that's pretty absurd.  I don't see much economic benefit or even traffic diverting to such an extreme just because a small segment of I-81 in Syracuse doesn't exist any longer to that extreme.

Keep in mind I-86 was already supposed to help out the Southern Tier.  That alleged benefit (even if you go with a smaller number than the few billion the exaggerated official study claimed) hasn't been realized as of yet.

(personal opinion emphasized)

Is it extreme?  As of right now, going from Rochester/Buffalo to Binghamton and south via Syracuse is 12 minutes shorter than taking I-390.  Once I-81 is gone, that shortens to 2-3 minutes.  Add to that the lower traffic levels and not having to pay a toll, and I can see some people switching, especially if I-481 starts feeling tight.

[webny99]

Who cares if Buffalo-DC has an inefficient routing? There's no demand for an improved routing that way, for that long of a stretch. Last I checked, there's not much of anything in central NY State, northern PA, etc. Lots of money for little gain.

Umm.. a few things.
-CSVT wouldn't be happening if there was no long-distance demand in the region.
-It's not just Buffalo. Around 1/3 of Canada's total population must pass through Buffalo to get to the East Coast, thus they are affected as well.
-Just because there are no major population centers, doesn't mean there's "nothing". There are plenty of tourist attractions, including but not limited to Kinzua Bridge, the Allegany's, Letchworth, the Finger Lakes. There is certainly more demand for Buffalo>DC than there is for most rural western interstates, and there is plenty of demand with more localized start and endpoints as well.

[webny99]

Fun fact: the removal of I-81 in Syracuse will make that route 10 minutes longer.

This might sound like an absurd thing to say, but I could see removal of the viaduct significantly increasing traffic on I-390 and I-86, thus improving the struggling economies of the Southern Tier.

Yeah, that's pretty absurd.  I don't see much economic benefit or even traffic diverting to such an extreme just because a small segment of I-81 in Syracuse doesn't exist any longer to that extreme.
Keep in mind I-86 was already supposed to help out the Southern Tier.  That alleged benefit (even if you go with a smaller number than the few billion the exaggerated official study claimed) hasn't been realized as of yet.
(personal opinion emphasized)

Is it extreme?  As of right now, going from Rochester/Buffalo to Binghamton and south via Syracuse is 12 minutes shorter than taking I-390.  Once I-81 is gone, that shortens to 2-3 minutes.  Add to that the lower traffic levels and not having to pay a toll, and I can see some people switching, especially if I-481 starts feeling tight.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts. Especially for Buffalo, there is already a lot of mileage savings by taking US 20A to I-390, so it will become a no-brainer, while becoming close to a true toss-up for Rochester (instead of Thruway to I-81 being the obvious choice).

It will not surprise me at all if the alternate routes to Binghamton start seeing significantly more traffic once I-81 is gone. All traffic from WNY heading to destinations roughly between New Haven, CT, and Wilmington, DE, must pass through Binghamton, and I-390 to I-86 is likely to become the easiest and most cost effective way to get there, while encountering the least truck traffic and urban-area related slowdowns. That's a large number of trips that are going to be affected. My suspicion is that navigation apps are also going to start recommending the I-390 to I-86 route, even from Rochester.