North Carolina

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Lots of delays coming for future highway projects in North Carolina.

REVISIONS TO THE 2020-2029 STIP (9/3/2020)

[LM117]

Lots of delays coming for future highway projects in North Carolina.

REVISIONS TO THE 2020-2029 STIP (9/3/2020)

[sprjus4]

Lots of delays coming for future highway projects in North Carolina.

REVISIONS TO THE 2020-2029 STIP (9/3/2020)

Some notable delays unfortunately.

- Two of the US-70 Kinston Bypass segments that were previously funded now will not be funded for construction until after 2029 (construction unfunded)
- US-158 widening east of Elizabeth City will not begin until 2028
- Mid-Currituck Bridge will now not begin until 2022
- US-13 / NC-11 widening / freeway from Ahoskie to Winton will now not begin until 2029
- US-70 between the James City upgrade and Havelock Bypass will now not begin until 2023
- US-17 Hampstead Bypass will now not begin until 2023 and 2026 (phases)
- An interchange along US-17 and one along US-258 / NC-24 in Jacksonville will now not begin until 2029
- Projects to extend I-795 to I-40 will now not begin until after 2029 (construction unfunded)
- I-87 widening between US-64 Bus and US-264 split will now not begin until after 2029 (construction unfunded)
- US-1 freeway upgrade north of Raleigh will now not begin until 2025, 2027, and after 2029 (construction unfunded) (phases)
- Managed freeways and ramp metering in the Raleigh area will now not begin until after 2029 (construction unfunded)
- I-95 widening south of Fayetteville will now not begin until 2023
- Last segment of I-295 in Fayetteville will now not begin until 2023
- Last segment of I-785 north of Greensboro will now not begin until 2029
- US-74 / I-74 upgrade between Rockingham and Laurinburg will now not begin until after 2029 (construction unfunded)
- Western Winston-Salem Beltway will now not begin until 2028 - 2029 (phases)
- I-74 Winston-Salem Beltway between I-74 and I-40 will now not begin until 2023
- Segments of US-74 Shelby Bypass will now not begin until 2024
- I-40 / I-240 / I-26 interchange upgrade will now not begin until after 2029 (construction unfunded)

Some good news... The last leg of NC-540 between I-40 and I-87 has been accelerated from 2029 to 2026, among some other smaller projects.

[wdcrft63]

Lots of delays coming for future highway projects in North Carolina.

REVISIONS TO THE 2020-2029 STIP (9/3/2020)

Some good news... The last leg of NC-540 between I-40 and I-87 has been accelerated from 2029 to 2026, among some other smaller projects.

That's a toll project. Here's a question: is there anything else in that list that could be accelerated by making it a toll project? The US 1 upgrade north of Raleigh comes to mind.

[sprjus4]

Lots of delays coming for future highway projects in North Carolina.

REVISIONS TO THE 2020-2029 STIP (9/3/2020)

Some good news... The last leg of NC-540 between I-40 and I-87 has been accelerated from 2029 to 2026, among some other smaller projects.

That's a toll project. Here's a question: is there anything else in that list that could be accelerated by making it a toll project? The US 1 upgrade north of Raleigh comes to mind.

That would require tolling existing general purpose lanes which I imagine they're trying to stay away from, unless they built it full Texas style with continuous 2 - 3 lane frontage roads in each direction with slip ramps. I don't think the current plan calls for that. A number of projects in the Austin and Dallas area have done that to existing roads, shoving a toll road in the middle and keeping the frontage roads the free option that was there before.

[orulz]

I think all the freeways in the Triangle should become managed facilities. Low/no tolls when uncongested; modest tolls to reduce congestion.

[goobnav]

I think all the freeways in the Triangle should become managed facilities. Low/no tolls when uncongested; modest tolls to reduce congestion.

Ah, no, as a Triangle resident for 25+ years.  The tolls for "rush" hour will cause more traffic on the side roads and just shift the congestion.  The tolls now are ridiculous and truly unwarranted. 

Bad money management from the current and previous State Administrations have caused essential projects to be placed on the "back burner" for "pet" projects and electoral advantageous projects.  Example, Charlotte's loop completed with no tolls, electoral advantageous, Greensboro's loop no tolls, "pet" project.  The Triangle has the traffic loads equal if not greater than the Triad, if any tolls, I-840 should be tolled either with FHWA exception or downgrade it to a NC Highway so it can be tolled.  540 should not be tolled at all but, the State got it's way and now a revenue stream it will not let go of until it is forced to relinquish.

[sprjus4]

Putting "modest tolls"  on existing, free freeways during rush hour does not account for the system capacity. While it might create free-flow on the interstate, it would only further congest existing arterial roads.

At least in the case of NC-540, it was a new facility, not an existing. Because traditional funding was lacking, billions of dollars in bonds were taken out to pay for it, and tolls repay those. Now granted, despite this being the case, now both Winston-Salem, Fayetteville, and Greensboro are getting similar billion dollars beltways, toll free. So the question now is, where did the revenue come to pay for those, but not Raleigh?

[Strider]

I think all the freeways in the Triangle should become managed facilities. Low/no tolls when uncongested; modest tolls to reduce congestion.

Ah, no, as a Triangle resident for 25+ years.  The tolls for "rush" hour will cause more traffic on the side roads and just shift the congestion.  The tolls now are ridiculous and truly unwarranted. 

Bad money management from the current and previous State Administrations have caused essential projects to be placed on the "back burner" for "pet" projects and electoral advantageous projects.  Example, Charlotte's loop completed with no tolls, electoral advantageous, Greensboro's loop no tolls, "pet" project.  The Triangle has the traffic loads equal if not greater than the Triad, if any tolls, I-840 should be tolled either with FHWA exception or downgrade it to a NC Highway so it can be tolled.  540 should not be tolled at all but, the State got it's way and now a revenue stream it will not let go of until it is forced to relinquish.

Sorry, I disagree. I-840 in Greensboro has been in the plans since forever. It is never planned to be tolled whether it is built right now or in 20 years. That is why it is not tolled, besides it is almost finished. No reason to toll it. To call it a "pet" project is silly. The same goes for Charlotte's I-485 (even now that they are working on toll express lanes). I-540 was not supposed to be tolled at all.. too bad the same couldn't be said for the rest of the Loop. Blame Raleigh for wanting to toll their loop to speed up progress AND... the growth in the Triangle area.

[goobnav]

I think all the freeways in the Triangle should become managed facilities. Low/no tolls when uncongested; modest tolls to reduce congestion.

Ah, no, as a Triangle resident for 25+ years.  The tolls for "rush" hour will cause more traffic on the side roads and just shift the congestion.  The tolls now are ridiculous and truly unwarranted. 

Bad money management from the current and previous State Administrations have caused essential projects to be placed on the "back burner" for "pet" projects and electoral advantageous projects.  Example, Charlotte's loop completed with no tolls, electoral advantageous, Greensboro's loop no tolls, "pet" project.  The Triangle has the traffic loads equal if not greater than the Triad, if any tolls, I-840 should be tolled either with FHWA exception or downgrade it to a NC Highway so it can be tolled.  540 should not be tolled at all but, the State got it's way and now a revenue stream it will not let go of until it is forced to relinquish.

Sorry, I disagree. I-840 in Greensboro has been in the plans since forever. It is never planned to be tolled whether it is built right now or in 20 years. That is why it is not tolled, besides it is almost finished. No reason to toll it. To call it a "pet" project is silly. The same goes for Charlotte's I-485 (even now that they are working on toll express lanes). I-540 was not supposed to be tolled at all.. too bad the same couldn't be said for the rest of the Loop. Blame Raleigh for wanting to toll their loop to speed up progress AND... the growth in the Triangle area.

The growth in the Triangle is greater than in the Triad, Triangle is 2+ million, the Triad is 1.6 million.  That constitutes the "pet" project title, especially that it'll be finished prior to the last parts of 540, tolled or not, being started. 

Per Wikipedia, 840 didn't appear as a proposed Interstate in the early 2000's, referencing for 540 per Wikipedia started as early as 1976. 

I do blame Raleigh, i.e. the State Government, for mismanagement of the prioritization of projects not based on population growth but, who will give us what, 840/73 was built for the still not fully operational FedEx hub at PTI, which was approved in the late '90's, thanks to Cary it wasn't going to be here.  This is the nature of politics in NC, not surprising.

Wiki for 840:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_840_(North_Carolina)

Wiki for 540:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_540_and_North_Carolina_Highway_540

[sprjus4]

^

Raleigh has a beltway, I-440. Greensboro does not.

[wdcrft63]

^

Raleigh has a beltway, I-440. Greensboro does not.

That's true, and a lot of money was spent upgrading I-440. The last part of that, on the southwest side of the city, is still underway. That's one of two priority projects in Raleigh; the other is upgrading I-40 on the southeastern approach to the city. So the city hasn't been ignored.

[sprjus4]

I imagine the overhaul of the I-440 / I-40 / US-1 interchange will be next, along with 8 lane widening of I-40 between I-87 and I-440 / US-1 where it isn't already. It seems the 6 lane widening of I-87 out to the US-264 split in Zebulon is getting pushed off further and further despite it being a continually growing need. The US-1 freeway north of Raleigh has been delayed again, but is still on track for construction this decade.

Any information regarding the widening the last 4 lane gap of I-40 between US-501 and I-85 to 6 lanes?

[goobnav]

I imagine the overhaul of the I-440 / I-40 / US-1 interchange will be next, along with 8 lane widening of I-40 between I-87 and I-440 / US-1 where it isn't already. It seems the 6 lane widening of I-87 out to the US-264 split in Zebulon is getting pushed off further and further despite it being a continually growing need. The US-1 freeway north of Raleigh has been delayed again, but is still on track for construction this decade.

Any information regarding the widening the last 4 lane gap of I-40 between US-501 and I-85 to 6 lanes?

Last I heard was next year but, that was prior COVID. 

440 is getting and upgrade it needed 20 years ago.  Greensboro lost is traffic bottleneck in "Death Valley", just drove it this week at rush hour in a torrential downpour and only tapped the brakes twice, prior to the 85 bypass that would have been 2 hours in traffic.  The Triangle in a torrential downpour and rush hour, still areas crawling, even with a Beltline and we are still growing.  But alas, still have tolls for what was to be free to give to other areas. 

Disagree all you want but reality is still reality.  Plus, the magic bullet the political shills bet on for public transportation and, also another reason our road dollars went elsewhere, died a quick death due to lack of interest and NIMBY's.  So, not changing my mind.

[Strider]

I think all the freeways in the Triangle should become managed facilities. Low/no tolls when uncongested; modest tolls to reduce congestion.

Ah, no, as a Triangle resident for 25+ years.  The tolls for "rush" hour will cause more traffic on the side roads and just shift the congestion.  The tolls now are ridiculous and truly unwarranted. 

Bad money management from the current and previous State Administrations have caused essential projects to be placed on the "back burner" for "pet" projects and electoral advantageous projects.  Example, Charlotte's loop completed with no tolls, electoral advantageous, Greensboro's loop no tolls, "pet" project.  The Triangle has the traffic loads equal if not greater than the Triad, if any tolls, I-840 should be tolled either with FHWA exception or downgrade it to a NC Highway so it can be tolled.  540 should not be tolled at all but, the State got it's way and now a revenue stream it will not let go of until it is forced to relinquish.

Sorry, I disagree. I-840 in Greensboro has been in the plans since forever. It is never planned to be tolled whether it is built right now or in 20 years. That is why it is not tolled, besides it is almost finished. No reason to toll it. To call it a "pet" project is silly. The same goes for Charlotte's I-485 (even now that they are working on toll express lanes). I-540 was not supposed to be tolled at all.. too bad the same couldn't be said for the rest of the Loop. Blame Raleigh for wanting to toll their loop to speed up progress AND... the growth in the Triangle area.

The growth in the Triangle is greater than in the Triad, Triangle is 2+ million, the Triad is 1.6 million.  That constitutes the "pet" project title, especially that it'll be finished prior to the last parts of 540, tolled or not, being started. 

Per Wikipedia, 840 didn't appear as a proposed Interstate in the early 2000's, referencing for 540 per Wikipedia started as early as 1976. 

I do blame Raleigh, i.e. the State Government, for mismanagement of the prioritization of projects not based on population growth but, who will give us what, 840/73 was built for the still not fully operational FedEx hub at PTI, which was approved in the late '90's, thanks to Cary it wasn't going to be here.  This is the nature of politics in NC, not surprising.

Wiki for 840:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_840_(North_Carolina)

Wiki for 540:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_540_and_North_Carolina_Highway_540

Don't believe what the Wikipedia said. The beltway for Greensboro has been in the plans since June 1967 though local transportation agenda under the name "Painter Blvd." Funding was the issue for years before it finally come in function.

I-840 designation doesn't show up until 2000's, so basically the beltway has been in the plans since mid 1960's. And I live in Greensboro. Get your facts right next time. Thank you for joining the conversation. Moving on.

[sprjus4]

^

Actually since 1947 as a parkway, by 1967 it was enhanced to a freeway loop.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

At least the I-40 widening between I-85 and US 15/501 (I-3306) in Orange County got moved up to 2021. I hate that it will be another five years before the widening starts on I-85 from NC 273 to US 321 (I-5719), and seven years until the I-85/I-485 improvements (I-6016) will start. That section has turned into a complete cluster.

The Rutherfordton bypass was delayed a couple of years, but will still start before the rest of the Shelby bypass. 

What I'm curious about with some of these delays is what it means for the prioritization process and "committed" projects. Let's take a small, $7 million project in Polk County for example. I-4729B has already gone through preliminary engineering, and probably final design. Right-of-way acquisition was this year, and construction was scheduled to start in 2021. First it was delayed until 2024, but was still a committed and "deliverable" project in the first five years of the STIP. Now it's been delayed another five years until 2029/post-year, placing it in the "developmental program." If I recall correctly, projects in the developmental program are subject to reprioritization.

How is it beneficial to anyone to have a project go through the environmental and engineering process and acquire right-of-way, only to delay a project a decade and potentially have it removed from the STIP? How much re-work, new work, etc. (i.e., MONEY) will be required to prepare this project again a decade from now? Why can't the NCDOT deliver committed projects before adding new projects to the STIP? You'd think there'd be some sort of grandfathering and committal to clearing out backlog, then focus on prioritization of new projects going forward. The STI law was passed in 2013, yet here we are, still unable to deliver existing projects.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

Of course it doesn't help that the General Assembly slashed half a billion dollars from NCDOT's budget this year, on top of all the other funding issues. I'm assuming this amounts to a slap on the wrist to NCDOT due to the poor audit this year that reflected very badly on the department.

Highways projects are typically at the top of every politician's list. Project delays in WNC have already made the news there. Money will start to show up again now that NCDOT has come back with "guess what, you know that highway project you wanted in your middle-of-nowhere district? It's been delayed five years. Good luck with your re-election." And there's one thing all politicians are good at: insert new tax/registration increase/user fee here.

[goobnav]

I think all the freeways in the Triangle should become managed facilities. Low/no tolls when uncongested; modest tolls to reduce congestion.

Ah, no, as a Triangle resident for 25+ years.  The tolls for "rush" hour will cause more traffic on the side roads and just shift the congestion.  The tolls now are ridiculous and truly unwarranted. 

Bad money management from the current and previous State Administrations have caused essential projects to be placed on the "back burner" for "pet" projects and electoral advantageous projects.  Example, Charlotte's loop completed with no tolls, electoral advantageous, Greensboro's loop no tolls, "pet" project.  The Triangle has the traffic loads equal if not greater than the Triad, if any tolls, I-840 should be tolled either with FHWA exception or downgrade it to a NC Highway so it can be tolled.  540 should not be tolled at all but, the State got it's way and now a revenue stream it will not let go of until it is forced to relinquish.

Sorry, I disagree. I-840 in Greensboro has been in the plans since forever. It is never planned to be tolled whether it is built right now or in 20 years. That is why it is not tolled, besides it is almost finished. No reason to toll it. To call it a "pet" project is silly. The same goes for Charlotte's I-485 (even now that they are working on toll express lanes). I-540 was not supposed to be tolled at all.. too bad the same couldn't be said for the rest of the Loop. Blame Raleigh for wanting to toll their loop to speed up progress AND... the growth in the Triangle area.

The growth in the Triangle is greater than in the Triad, Triangle is 2+ million, the Triad is 1.6 million.  That constitutes the "pet" project title, especially that it'll be finished prior to the last parts of 540, tolled or not, being started. 

Per Wikipedia, 840 didn't appear as a proposed Interstate in the early 2000's, referencing for 540 per Wikipedia started as early as 1976. 

I do blame Raleigh, i.e. the State Government, for mismanagement of the prioritization of projects not based on population growth but, who will give us what, 840/73 was built for the still not fully operational FedEx hub at PTI, which was approved in the late '90's, thanks to Cary it wasn't going to be here.  This is the nature of politics in NC, not surprising.

Wiki for 840:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_840_(North_Carolina)

Wiki for 540:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_540_and_North_Carolina_Highway_540

Don't believe what the Wikipedia said. The beltway for Greensboro has been in the plans since June 1967 though local transportation agenda under the name "Painter Blvd." Funding was the issue for years before it finally come in function.

I-840 designation doesn't show up until 2000's, so basically the beltway has been in the plans since mid 1960's. And I live in Greensboro. Get your facts right next time. Thank you for joining the conversation. Moving on.

Live in Durham, been in NC since '93, have had family live in the Triad before everything was built so yeah have experience, so you have your opinion and I have mine.  Ditto moving on.

[goobnav]

Of course it doesn't help that the General Assembly slashed half a billion dollars from NCDOT's budget this year, on top of all the other funding issues. I'm assuming this amounts to a slap on the wrist to NCDOT due to the poor audit this year that reflected very badly on the department.

Highways projects are typically at the top of every politician's list. Project delays in WNC have already made the news there. Money will start to show up again now that NCDOT has come back with "guess what, you know that highway project you wanted in your middle-of-nowhere district? It's been delayed five years. Good luck with your re-election." And there's one thing all politicians are good at: insert new tax/registration increase/user fee here.

Yep, don't be surprised once we go to Phase 2.6598781818 whatever that magically the politicians find the money to build the necessary projects that have been delayed for over a decade.  Unless Cooper is ousted, then the money will show up hidden in some of the Federal Emergency Financing.  Only time will tell.

[CanesFan27]

"In 1954, the city of Greensboro hired W.F. Babcock, an engineering professor at North Carolina State College and later state highway administrator, to create an urban road plan for the city.  That plan included a loop.  Thirty-Five years later, moneys from the Highway Trust Fund made possible the long-envisioned roadway, to be known as Painter Boulevard and designated as I-840."

Source: Paving Tobacco Road - A Century of Progress by the North Carolina Department of Tranportation by Walter R. Turner.  Page 101. 2003.

--Adam

[CanesFan27]

^

Actually since 1947 as a parkway, by 1967 it was enhanced to a freeway loop.

When I saw you correct it to 1947 - I was like I know it was well before 1967 when they opened the first section in 2003 or whenever it was they mentioned how it was well over 40 years in the making.

And proof:
The genesis of the superhighway now under construction dates to a June 1948 document from the city Planning and Zoning Commission that described the Loop as part of "a comprehensive thoroughfare system for Greensboro, based on the existing form of the city, designed to meet present and future needs and yet flexible enough to meet any unexpected shifting."

https://greensboro.com/news/local_news/years-of-road-planning-in-greensboro-takes-concrete-shape/article_f733e1a2-6f3e-11e7-ae00-e3274d83b4c0.html

the Wikipedia 840 article also mentions the 1948 plan.

[Mapmikey]

^

Actually since 1947 as a parkway, by 1967 it was enhanced to a freeway loop.

When I saw you correct it to 1947 - I was like I know it was well before 1967 when they opened the first section in 2003 or whenever it was they mentioned how it was well over 40 years in the making.

And proof:
The genesis of the superhighway now under construction dates to a June 1948 document from the city Planning and Zoning Commission that described the Loop as part of "a comprehensive thoroughfare system for Greensboro, based on the existing form of the city, designed to meet present and future needs and yet flexible enough to meet any unexpected shifting."

https://greensboro.com/news/local_news/years-of-road-planning-in-greensboro-takes-concrete-shape/article_f733e1a2-6f3e-11e7-ae00-e3274d83b4c0.html

the Wikipedia 840 article also mentions the 1948 plan.

I would classify this as a maybe at best, as in, Greensboro wanted loops.  But given some of the outermost loop in the 1948 plan was built and is not I-840's path, this may not be the genesis of I-840.

See pg. 13 here (easiest to download as a pdf) - http://libcdm1.uncg.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/UrbanDevGSO/id/632/rec/10

The outermost routings are not as far out as the Greensboro beltway in any direction.  Some of what was the outermost 1948 plan was built - Bryan Blvd and Cone Blvd are along its path.  The southern part of the outermost proposal is I-40 and I-85 Bus.  The easternmost leg is Franklin Blvd and the westernmost is Muirs Chapel Rd and Jefferson Rd

The Babcock plan (see pdf pg. 20 at https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffiles.nc.gov%2Fncdcr%2Fhistoric-preservation-office%2FPDFs%2FER%252018-4253.pdf&psig=AOvVaw0YLlLwa54Q5Dflw4Qudtpz&ust=1599820430435000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAMQjB1qFwoTCLjLt-bH3usCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAK) is not substantially different from the 1948 plan.

The 1965 throroughfare plan has about 3/4 of I-840s path pretty close to what is built, but as part of two different loop/bypasses (they actually form a spiral).  See pg. 47 at http://libcdm1.uncg.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/UrbanDevGSO/id/6081/rec/9.  Of specific note is also on pg. 45 is they define the three loops first identified in 1948 which were all built to some degree.

I-840 is the combination of the US 29 Bypass (Painter and Hines Blvds.), the Southern leg of the Outer Loop (Frink Blvd), and a slightly altered east leg of the outer loop (Brower Blvd)


This 1967 report (see pdf pg 23) shows I-840's current path - http://libcdm1.uncg.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/UrbanDevGSO/id/347/rec/26

I did not locate a document that changed the plan to have the full Greensboro Beltway as being built but the change to have this was between 1965-67.

BTW, High Point was supposed to get a beltway too - http://libcdm1.uncg.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/UrbanDevGSO/id/7394/rec/10

[Takumi]

I didn't know the Mid-Currituck Bridge was even imminent.

[sprjus4]

I didn't know the Mid-Currituck Bridge was even imminent.

Been thinking that for the past decade. I'll believe it when it's under construction.