A tax on bikes? Hit the road, some cyclists say

[agentsteel53]

I'm arguing that you should avoid being a dick and hitting them.

and I'm arguing that they should stop being a dick and getting into situations where it is very, very close to physically impossible to avoid them.

what is it about bicyclists that gives them an innate right to get themselves into near-miss situations where you would condemn a motor vehicle for following the exact same trajectory?

if I run a stop sign, and someone has to do a fantastic bit of evasive driving to avoid hitting me - you'd seriously assign the blame based on what type of vehicle I'm operating?

[hobsini2]

Agent, I like to think that there are some responsible cyclists out there just like I am sure that some of them would like to think there are responsible drivers too. But to answer you question in the meantime, according to those cyclists here who shall remain nameless, yes a driver is at fault 100% of the time even if the driver is parked or at a dead stop and the cyclist runs in to the vehicle.

[kkt]

Agent, I like to think that there are some responsible cyclists out there just like I am sure that some of them would like to think there are responsible drivers too. But to answer you question in the meantime, according to those cyclists here who shall remain nameless, yes a driver is at fault 100% of the time even if the driver is parked or at a dead stop and the cyclist runs in to the vehicle.

I have trouble believing that a car driver is at fault if s/he's stopped or legally parked and a cyclist runs into him/her.  Do you have an example?  Otherwise it really sounds like a straw man.

[kphoger]

One would hope there's a difference between running a stop sign with no traffic present and running a stop sign with a car imminently approaching.  Should the two not be enforced differently–for cars, bikes, donkey carts, etc.?

[agentsteel53]

One would hope there's a difference between running a stop sign with no traffic present and running a stop sign with a car imminently approaching.  Should the two not be enforced differently–for cars, bikes, donkey carts, etc.?

there's also a difference between the following:

a) slowing down enough to see that there is no traffic, rolling through the STOP sign, and then accelerating back to cruising speed
b) without slowing down, blowing through the STOP sign as though it did not exist, with no regard to possible traffic

there is a variant on b) when the bicyclist assumes that you will obey standard four-way-stop protocol, and actually come to a stop... so they use the break in traffic to blow right through.  while this (if calculated correctly) does not produce a collision, it does alter the dynamic of the four-way-stop, and let's face it, if a car did that, not even NE2 would be praising that driver's cleverness.

[kphoger]

b-variant is something I used to do as a kid, but don't do now that I'm a growed-up.  I've seen cars do it too, though the more common variant is to tail the car in front of them through the intersection without stopping.

[NE2]

there is a variant on b) when the bicyclist assumes that you will obey standard four-way-stop protocol, and actually come to a stop... so they use the break in traffic to blow right through.  while this (if calculated correctly) does not produce a collision, it does alter the dynamic of the four-way-stop, and let's face it, if a car did that, not even NE2 would be praising that driver's cleverness.

I wouldn't praise a cyclist either for blowing through a stop sign. Both parties can be wrong.

[kphoger]

But the question then becomes:  would you praise anyone, ever?

[NE2]

I'd always praise the Grand High Alan, except when goat.

[agentsteel53]

I wouldn't praise a cyclist either for blowing through a stop sign. Both parties can be wrong.

no, in the case of anyone blowing through a four-way stop sign, precisely one party would be wrong.

[NE2]

I wouldn't praise a cyclist either for blowing through a stop sign. Both parties can be wrong.

no, in the case of anyone blowing through a four-way stop sign, precisely one party would be wrong.

No. If A blows through and B (who has waited his turn) notices this but goes anyway and hits A, both are in the wrong.

Even absent specific laws (which do exist), this is called the "last clear chance" rule and is a general legal doctrine.

[agentsteel53]

No. If A blows through and B (who has waited his turn) notices this but goes anyway and hits A, both are in the wrong.

but if I have insufficient time to notice this (say, I've already come to a full stop and started up again), then there's only so much I can do. 

and anyone that counts on people to consistently go through evasive maneuvers to avoid them, and thus runs stop signs regularly, is a dick.  yes, I will stop for you, but having to slam on the brakes and swerve to avoid your lawbreaking behavior does not make me the party in the wrong.

[NE2]

If you fail to avoid a crash when you could have, yes, you are in the wrong. That doesn't mean the other guy is not in the wrong too. How fucking hard is this to understand?

[Alps]

If you fail to avoid a crash when you could have, yes, you are in the wrong. That doesn't mean the other guy is not in the wrong too. How fucking hard is this to understand?

If you CAN avoid a crash, yes. If you are driving properly and someone else is driving improperly and you CAN'T avoid the crash, then they are at fault. I think we're clear now.

And yes, if bicycles run a red light, they SHOULD be ticketed. I can't say I always obey the rules of the road when I'm on the bike, but I do my best unless I'm really in a hurry. (Because technically, I could dismount and walk it across the intersection and remount.)

[NE2]

Because technically, I could dismount and walk it across the intersection and remount.

Only legal if you wait for the walk signal. (If there's no ped signal you can only cross on green.) Though you could turn right, immediately U-turn by crossing midblock (if legal), and then turn right again.

This is getting into angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin type questions. Like can you turn right on don't walk (from a right-side sidewalk to a crossroad)?

[djsinco]

Agent, I like to think that there are some responsible cyclists out there just like I am sure that some of them would like to think there are responsible drivers too. But to answer you question in the meantime, according to those cyclists here who shall remain nameless, yes a driver is at fault 100% of the time even if the driver is parked or at a dead stop and the cyclist runs in to the vehicle.

Many years ago my Dad was pulling out of a business driveway and a bicyclist ran into him. The biker was on the sidewalk, and did not pay attention to the car which was already (legally) blocking the sidewalk waiting for a brake in traffic to leave. There were no citations issued. The bike rider was taken to the hospital for contusions and a broken collarbone. A police incident report was filed, citing the biker as at fault. In the end he (or his insurance) had to pay to repair the minor damage to my fathers car. So, not always is the car driver found at fault.

[hobsini2]

Agent, I like to think that there are some responsible cyclists out there just like I am sure that some of them would like to think there are responsible drivers too. But to answer you question in the meantime, according to those cyclists here who shall remain nameless, yes a driver is at fault 100% of the time even if the driver is parked or at a dead stop and the cyclist runs in to the vehicle.

I have trouble believing that a car driver is at fault if s/he's stopped or legally parked and a cyclist runs into him/her.  Do you have an example?  Otherwise it really sounds like a straw man.

KKT, I was being sarcastic if you missed that.

[cpzilliacus]

Many years ago my Dad was pulling out of a business driveway and a bicyclist ran into him. The biker was on the sidewalk, and did not pay attention to the car which was already (legally) blocking the sidewalk waiting for a brake in traffic to leave. There were no citations issued. The bike rider was taken to the hospital for contusions and a broken collarbone. A police incident report was filed, citing the biker as at fault. In the end he (or his insurance) had to pay to repair the minor damage to my fathers car. So, not always is the car driver found at fault.

This past week, I spent much of a morning on M Street, N.W. in the Georgetown area of Washington, D.C. (near the Key Bridge) during the morning commute period.

Even though it was a cold day (for March in D.C.), there were a lot of bikes out.  I was literally taken-aback by how many bikes were (illegally) using the sidewalk instead of the street, a bad thing, especially when there were people standing on that sidewalk waiting for the bus to come, and quite a few pedestrians out - some walking and some jogging (soldiers from the Army's Fort Myer like to jog across the Key Bridge and then around Georgetown - a fair number of students from the Georgetown University also jog).

[Mr_Northside]

One would hope there's a difference between running a stop sign with no traffic present and running a stop sign with a car imminently approaching.  Should the two not be enforced differently–for cars, bikes, donkey carts, etc.?

there's also a difference between the following:

a) slowing down enough to see that there is no traffic, rolling through the STOP sign, and then accelerating back to cruising speed
b) without slowing down, blowing through the STOP sign as though it did not exist, with no regard to possible traffic

(A) is usually my standard operating procedure for Stop signs.  And if there is traffic, I will treat it as if I was in a car.  I couldn't even imagine trying (B) at any of the intersections I traverse with stop signs.
I'm pretty consistent at obeying traffic signals, regardless of whether it looks like there is no other traffic.  The one "corner" I sometimes cut, though, is making a Right-On-Red even if there is a sign not to if there's no other cars in sight.

[kphoger]

I couldn't even imagine trying (B) at any of the intersections I traverse with stop signs.

I once had near-disastrous results doing that when I was about seven or eight years old.  I lived about two blocks from Cedar Road in New Lenox, IL; it is probably busier now than it was then, but it was still a fairly busy street even in the 1980s.  Anyway, I always slowed or stopped at the Stop sign to check for traffic before riding across Cedar.  There were so many times that I stopped or slowed yet no cars were coming, that (this was apparently logical to my childhood mind) one day I decided to not even look.  I didn't even touch the brakes or turn my head–just rode straight across the road.  I could swear a car came within three inches of me; for sure, it spun out in the middle of the road (did at least a 180° skid) and the driver used all sorts of colorful language at me.  That's probably the closest to death I've ever come.

[realjd]

Many years ago my Dad was pulling out of a business driveway and a bicyclist ran into him. The biker was on the sidewalk, and did not pay attention to the car which was already (legally) blocking the sidewalk waiting for a brake in traffic to leave. There were no citations issued. The bike rider was taken to the hospital for contusions and a broken collarbone. A police incident report was filed, citing the biker as at fault. In the end he (or his insurance) had to pay to repair the minor damage to my fathers car. So, not always is the car driver found at fault.

This past week, I spent much of a morning on M Street, N.W. in the Georgetown area of Washington, D.C. (near the Key Bridge) during the morning commute period.

Even though it was a cold day (for March in D.C.), there were a lot of bikes out.  I was literally taken-aback by how many bikes were (illegally) using the sidewalk instead of the street, a bad thing, especially when there were people standing on that sidewalk waiting for the bus to come, and quite a few pedestrians out - some walking and some jogging (soldiers from the Army's Fort Myer like to jog across the Key Bridge and then around Georgetown - a fair number of students from the Georgetown University also jog).

For most parts of DC, cycling on the sidewalk is perfectly legal.

[kphoger]

Many years ago my Dad was pulling out of a business driveway and a bicyclist ran into him. The biker was on the sidewalk, and did not pay attention to the car which was already (legally) blocking the sidewalk waiting for a brake in traffic to leave. There were no citations issued. The bike rider was taken to the hospital for contusions and a broken collarbone. A police incident report was filed, citing the biker as at fault. In the end he (or his insurance) had to pay to repair the minor damage to my fathers car. So, not always is the car driver found at fault.

This past week, I spent much of a morning on M Street, N.W. in the Georgetown area of Washington, D.C. (near the Key Bridge) during the morning commute period.

Even though it was a cold day (for March in D.C.), there were a lot of bikes out.  I was literally taken-aback by how many bikes were (illegally) using the sidewalk instead of the street, a bad thing, especially when there were people standing on that sidewalk waiting for the bus to come, and quite a few pedestrians out - some walking and some jogging (soldiers from the Army's Fort Myer like to jog across the Key Bridge and then around Georgetown - a fair number of students from the Georgetown University also jog).

For most parts of DC, cycling on the sidewalk is perfectly legal.

If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.

[djsinco]

Facts being changed in DC? Perish the thought!