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Breezewood

Started by theroadwayone, October 03, 2017, 02:10:45 AM

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In light of the threads about it, is it time we stopped beating a dead horse?

Yes
52 (44.8%)
No
64 (55.2%)

Total Members Voted: 116

jeffandnicole

Quote from: 1 on October 09, 2017, 01:15:19 PM
Quote from: signalman on October 09, 2017, 01:03:19 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 09, 2017, 10:40:06 AM
Pennsy is extremely infamous for its lack abundance of highway-to-highway interchanges that require you to go thru traffic lights.  The PA Turnpike has several examples of this alone.
FTFY

There were two interpretations of that statement.

1. Known for lack of highway-to-highway interchanges; i.e. known for interchanges that are not direct highway-to-highway.
2. The way that you tried to fix it, which implies "highway-to-highway interchanges that require you to go thru traffic lights" is one phrase.

3. PA fucks up what should be a simple connection between 2 highways.


jakeroot

^^
The PA Turnpike seems to be full of these bog-standard trumpet-to-trumpet interchanges. The Northeast in general seems to be full of bizarre 4-way junction designs. It's almost like there's height restrictions on freeway overpasses, requiring these sprawling designs.

I zoomed in on a random freeway in Google Maps just a moment ago (I'm not familiar with PA so, all things being equal, I just look for the thick orange lines and zoom in where they meet). First interchange I zoomed in on was the Turnpike where it meets I-99...trumpet to trumpet, though you need to use an arterial, requiring at least two turns. Just dumb.

jeffandnicole

The Northeast tends to have older roads, so there are some more unusual road designs that you'll find elsewhere.  That said, something like I-99 is quite new.  Using 1950's design standards to modern day construction is, well, you said it: Just dumb.

jakeroot

True. Many Northeast cities have those "cowpath" road layouts that necessitate some really odd interchanges. There's some cities, like Los Angeles, that also have very old roads. But most are laid out in straight lines, making interchanges relatively simply to design. Although freeway-to-freeway junctions in LA were definitely more modern than anything being built back east at the time.

theroadwayone

Quote from: jakeroot on October 09, 2017, 06:30:16 PM
^^
The PA Turnpike seems to be full of these bog-standard trumpet-to-trumpet interchanges. The Northeast in general seems to be full of bizarre 4-way junction designs. It's almost like there's height restrictions on freeway overpasses, requiring these sprawling designs.

I zoomed in on a random freeway in Google Maps just a moment ago (I'm not familiar with PA so, all things being equal, I just look for the thick orange lines and zoom in where they meet). First interchange I zoomed in on was the Turnpike where it meets I-99...trumpet to trumpet, though you need to use an arterial, requiring at least two turns. Just dumb.
On a similar vein, the NE Extension-I-80 interchange is like that; two trumpets linked by a stoplight.

signalman

Quote from: 1 on October 09, 2017, 01:15:19 PM
Quote from: signalman on October 09, 2017, 01:03:19 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 09, 2017, 10:40:06 AM
Pennsy is extremely infamous for its lack abundance of highway-to-highway interchanges that require you to go thru traffic lights.  The PA Turnpike has several examples of this alone.
FTFY

There were two interpretations of that statement.

1. Known for lack of highway-to-highway interchanges; i.e. known for interchanges that are not direct highway-to-highway.
2. The way that you tried to fix it, which implies "highway-to-highway interchanges that require you to go thru traffic lights" is one phrase.
After re-reading J&N's original post I did indeed misread/misinterpret it.  I read it as him saying that there's a lack (very few, if any) of highway-to-highway (PA Turnpike-Interstate) connections requiring one to pass through a traffic light.  This is most certainly not the case.  My apologies for the confusion/my being dickhead.

jakeroot

I'm still confused.

"Highway-to-highway interchanges that require you to go through stop lights" means grade separated junctions connected by a stop light, presumably due to another minor intersecting road. PA seems to have a lot of these (i.e. an "abundance"). I'm not sure how "lack of" could possibly be the right phrasing, unless there's sarcasm involved.

Roadsguy

Quote from: jakeroot on October 10, 2017, 03:49:44 PM
I'm still confused.

"Highway-to-highway interchanges that require you to go through stop lights" means grade separated junctions connected by a stop light, presumably due to another minor intersecting road. PA seems to have a lot of these (i.e. an "abundance"). I'm not sure how "lack of" could possibly be the right phrasing, unless there's sarcasm involved.

I guess it could be meant two ways:


  • The lack of direct interchanges requires drivers to go through stop lights at these junctions.
  • There is an abundance of freeway-to-freeway interchanges that require drivers to go through stop lights.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

jeffandnicole

I simply wrote it wrong. How about 'too many PA Highway-to-Highway interchanges involve traffic lights'?

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 11, 2017, 07:24:55 AM
I simply wrote it wrong. How about 'too many PA Highway-to-Highway interchanges involve traffic lights'?

That summarizes it nicely.  And given the  Pennsylvania schlock around most of these Breezewood-type non-connections, it seems that the Keystone State is rewarded for such bad behavior. 
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jemacedo9

As much as I dislike the concept of these non-freeway junctions, if I had to prioritize projects for PA to complete, none of them would rank very high.  I'd rather see the money spent on modernizing actual freeway stretches like I-70 west of New Stanton, I-83, I-78, and plus trying to figure out what to with the substandard urban freeways (I-376 and I-76 Philly) before I tackle those.

Should have they been fixed previously?  Sure.  But that and a dollar will get you a dollar.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 11, 2017, 01:49:36 PM
Should have they been fixed previously?  Sure.  But that and a dollar will get you a dollar.

The one that needs fixing above all of them is the Breezewood. 

Why?

As I suggested above, crashes on I-70 westbound (compass nearly north) approaching the signalized intersection at U.S. 30.  That is (or should be) unacceptable.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Beltway

Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 11, 2017, 01:49:36 PM
As much as I dislike the concept of these non-freeway junctions, if I had to prioritize projects for PA to complete, none of them would rank very high.  I'd rather see the money spent on modernizing actual freeway stretches like I-70 west of New Stanton, I-83, I-78, and plus trying to figure out what to with the substandard urban freeways (I-376 and I-76 Philly) before I tackle those.
Should have they been fixed previously?  Sure.  But that and a dollar will get you a dollar.

They are both about equal in priority.  Missing Turnpike/Interstate interchanges are gaps in the Interstate highway system.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Scott5114

One thing all of the double-trumpet interchanges that have been mentioned have in common is that they're all on the Pennsylvania Turnpike system. Building a double trumpet gives you a place you can put one barrier toll plaza, as opposed to four plazas on a diamond or two on a parclo. And if you have to stop for a tollbooth anyway, there's not a whole lot of point to building a large free-flow interchange, so why spend the money?

Interchanges like Breezewood that require you to make a movement by following a general-purpose surface road for any reason can fuck right off, though.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

jemacedo9

I would like to know, for that stretch of I-70 westbound approaching Breezewood, how the accident or death rate compares to the rest of the PA interstates. If it's pretty high, then I concede my point. 

And conceptually, I hate the concept of Breezewood. In utopia, or in a vacuum, this would be resolved immediately. But with limited highway funding, I don't like spending money to appease a conceptual idea where there are greater needs.  And PennDOT is historically bad, IMO, and prioritizing.

I would imagine this would be a joint PTC/PennDOT project. If it were PTC only, I would rate this higher than PA 576 for sure. But I still believe IMO that PennDOT has many higher priorities than this, unless accident/death rates in comparison state otherwise...not-Act 44-withstanding.

cpzilliacus

#40
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
One thing all of the double-trumpet interchanges that have been mentioned have in common is that they're all on the Pennsylvania Turnpike system. Building a double trumpet gives you a place you can put one barrier toll plaza, as opposed to four plazas on a diamond or two on a parclo. And if you have to stop for a tollbooth anyway, there's not a whole lot of point to building a large free-flow interchange, so why spend the money?

Interchanges like Breezewood that require you to make a movement by following a general-purpose surface road for any reason can fuck right off, though.

Given that the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission has said that it intends to migrate to a system of toll roads that is 100% cashless, the need for double-trumpet interchanges goes away (as do the  excuses for not having direct interchanges with  I-81, U.S. 220/I-99, U.S. 219 and the subject of this thread).   

PTC has a cashless toll point on I-276 westbound entering Pennsylvania from New Jersey (site of the former eastern bounds of the toll ticket system), and an entirely cashless and ticketless interchange on I-476.

In addition to other parts of the Pennsylvania Turnpike network (I-376) already having gone cashless.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

VTGoose

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
One thing all of the double-trumpet interchanges that have been mentioned have in common is that they're all on the Pennsylvania Turnpike system. Building a double trumpet gives you a place you can put one barrier toll plaza, as opposed to four plazas on a diamond or two on a parclo. And if you have to stop for a tollbooth anyway, there's not a whole lot of point to building a large free-flow interchange, so why spend the money?


The heartburn of Breezewood is that the fix is so simple and solved by two ramps. The toll plaza would not need to be changed since the ramps would enter/leave the "access" road from Breezewood before reaching the plaza. The fact that Breezewood has such a hold on PennDOT and the PTC that is blocking this solution is quite irritating to many. All the data may show that the current situation is not safe and is a regular bottleneck, but money talks.

Bruce in Blacksburg
"Get in the fast lane, grandma!  The bingo game is ready to roll!"

PHLBOS

Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 12, 2017, 10:52:55 AMPTC has a cashless toll point on I-276 westbound entering Pennsylvania from New Jersey (site of the former eastern bounds of the toll ticket system), and an entirely cashless and ticketless interchange on I-476.
I-276 westbound also has a cashless (realistically E-ZPass Only) interchange at Virginia Drive/Exit 340 (this was PTC's first cashless interchange) & I-276 eastbound has one at PA 132/Exit 352 as well.

I-76 also has one at PA 29/Exit 320
GPS does NOT equal GOD

cpzilliacus

#43
Quote from: VTGoose on October 12, 2017, 11:01:40 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
One thing all of the double-trumpet interchanges that have been mentioned have in common is that they're all on the Pennsylvania Turnpike system. Building a double trumpet gives you a place you can put one barrier toll plaza, as opposed to four plazas on a diamond or two on a parclo. And if you have to stop for a tollbooth anyway, there's not a whole lot of point to building a large free-flow interchange, so why spend the money?


The heartburn of Breezewood is that the fix is so simple and solved by two ramps. The toll plaza would not need to be changed since the ramps would enter/leave the "access" road from Breezewood before reaching the plaza. The fact that Breezewood has such a hold on PennDOT and the PTC that is blocking this solution is quite irritating to many. All the data may show that the current situation is not safe and is a regular bottleneck, but money talks.

The Wall Street Journal discussed Breezewood way back in 1999 here (may be paywalled).

Emphasis added below.

QuoteBy 1985, tie-ups had gotten so huge that the town had to hire deputy sheriffs to direct weekend traffic. Next came what local police call Black Sunday, a post-Thanksgiving traffic jam in 1987 when a series of rear-end collisions sent 16 people to local hospitals. Thereafter, the town found itself under political siege, scrambling to fend off one bypass proposal after another.

QuoteLeading the defense were six families of entrepreneurs who have run unincorporated Breezewood for two generations and contributed, federal election records show, $25,000 to Rep. Shuster over the past decade. The most prominent families are the Bittners, proprietors of the Gateway; the motel-owning Felton family, and the Wilts, who own much of the town's prime property.

QuoteThe families rely on Messrs. Shuster and Jubelirer to suppress any Breezewood bypass design work by state highway and turnpike engineers. But they still live in fear that someday the world will pass them by. They had to "fight like mad," says motel owner Derril Wilt, to ensure that work currently being done to expand the toll plaza wouldn't turn into a pretext for a seamless connection with I-70. Mr. Jubelirer weighed in to protect the town's 1,200 jobs and several business investments worth millions of dollars.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

hbelkins

Breezewood bothers me a lot more than the I-76/I-81, I-76/I-99 and I-80/I-476 interchanges, solely because Breezewood is a gap in a continuous highway (I-70).

And I must be in the minority because I don't have the gripes about I-78 that so many others do. I-70 between Washington and New Stanton, yes. But not I-78.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Beltway

Quote from: VTGoose on October 12, 2017, 11:01:40 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
One thing all of the double-trumpet interchanges that have been mentioned have in common is that they're all on the Pennsylvania Turnpike system. Building a double trumpet gives you a place you can put one barrier toll plaza, as opposed to four plazas on a diamond or two on a parclo. And if you have to stop for a tollbooth anyway, there's not a whole lot of point to building a large free-flow interchange, so why spend the money?
The heartburn of Breezewood is that the fix is so simple and solved by two ramps. The toll plaza would not need to be changed since the ramps would enter/leave the "access" road from Breezewood before reaching the plaza. The fact that Breezewood has such a hold on PennDOT and the PTC that is blocking this solution is quite irritating to many. All the data may show that the current situation is not safe and is a regular bottleneck, but money talks.
Bruce in Blacksburg

Exactly.  That is the scheme that I have proposed as well.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

jemacedo9

Quote from: hbelkins on October 12, 2017, 12:33:47 PM
Breezewood bothers me a lot more than the I-76/I-81, I-76/I-99 and I-80/I-476 interchanges, solely because Breezewood is a gap in a continuous highway (I-70).

And I must be in the minority because I don't have the gripes about I-78 that so many others do. I-70 between Washington and New Stanton, yes. But not I-78.

I-70 between Washington and New Stanton is being worked in pieces, as well as I-78 in Berks County, and I'd like to see that continue.

jemacedo9

The Eastbound movement I think is a pretty simple ramp.
The Westbound movement, as a fly-over, involve some interesting terrain and braiding around existing roads. But definitely not impossible.  Cost estimates?  The I-70/I-79 South junction was $35M 5 years ago.  This would be $50M-$75M? It's not a small project.


Beltway

#48
Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 12, 2017, 01:22:14 PM
The Eastbound movement I think is a pretty simple ramp.
The Westbound movement, as a fly-over, involve some interesting terrain and braiding around existing roads. But definitely not impossible.  Cost estimates?  The I-70/I-79 South junction was $35M 5 years ago.  This would be $50M-$75M? It's not a small project.

While a semi-directional ramp would be ideal, the westbound movement could be handled by a large radius loop ramp with a 45 mph design speed, there is ample space for that, and it would be a lot less expensive than a flyover.

These two ramps should be buildable at a cost of about $35 million total.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

roadman65

Yes the PA Turnpike is the one highway that stands out above the rest due to its indirect access between the toll freeway and the free freeways.   Ohio used to and IL still has it to some degree at I-57 and I-294 as well as at I-55 S Bound to SB Bound I-55 to S Bound I-294 using US 12-20-45 there and some of Joliet Road heading SB to SB and NB to NB, but no stoplights in the latter.

At Breezewood where the long ramp (the former Tpk mainline) and I-70 meet you can have two ramps built and one can be a high speed loop ramp as that is all you really need to serve the missing link of I-70 if that is what Beltway is referring to.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe



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