DST (2018)

[vdeane]

Well, here's an idea: https://xkcd.com/2050/

[webny99]

Thanks to DST, the sun actually rises and sets at 7 on the equinox, since solar noon isn't until (around) 1PM.

Just my opinion, of course, but having daylight from 7 to 7 is a lot better than having it 6 to 6 - even though it means waking up in the dark.

[tradephoric]

It sounds like a done deal....  European Commissioner for Transport Violeta Bulc on September 14th announced that the EU will stop the twice-yearly changing of clocks across the continent in October 2019.  Each member state will have until April 2019 to decide whether to permanently stay on summer time or winter time. 

European Union to stop changing clocks in 2019 amid fears of time zone chaos
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/09/19/european-union-stop-changing-clocks-2019/1355573002/

Now that Europe is getting rid of the clock changes in 2019, is it time for the federal government to amend the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to make Daylight Saving time permanent in America?  Amending the Uniform Time Act would be a relatively simple process last done under the Bush administration as part of the Energy Policy Act of 2005.

[vdeane]

Looks like Europe will go from having proper time zones to being a mish-mash of Summer and Winter time, which IMO is very inelegant and not what I'd like to see.  We should be making time zones more elegant and standardized, not disjointed.

Honestly, the DST people have already ruined Halloween.  Do we want them to ruin Christmas too?  I LIKE looking at Christmas lights on my commute home!

[jeffandnicole]

Now that Europe is getting rid of the clock changes in 2019, is it time for the federal government to amend the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to make Daylight Saving time permanent in America?

No.

[jakeroot]

Looks like Europe will go from having proper time zones to being a mish-mash of Summer and Winter time, which IMO is very inelegant and not what I'd like to see.  We should be making time zones more elegant and standardized, not disjointed.

Could be a mish-mash. No way to know for sure, as it's entirely possible that each country will align itself with the countries north and south of it.



I would prefer a single time zone here in Seattle. In Winter, the sun sets way too early, and it still doesn't rise until rush hour is well on its way. What's another hour of darkness in the morning? Beats driving to work in the dark, and home in the dark (assuming 9-hour workday from 0730 to 1630). Driving to work in the dark is a given. At least with summer time, there's the chance you could be home before sunset.

[vdeane]

My day is only 8 hours long (8:30-4:30), so I never leave before sunrise, and never get home after dusk (unless I'm running errands after work).  Plus I can see out the window from where I sit, so who cares if it's dark when I get home?  I don't need sunlight to watch TV or sit at the computer, and it's not like I can't see out the window at work.  Maybe there would be less demand for evening daylight if more workplaces had significant window coverage.  I can at least understand it for the unfortunate people who work in places with no windows.

I do find it interesting that people seem to be more fixated on sunset than sunrise.  Twilight seems to be considered as "day" for morning but "night" for evening.  In any case, I have been noticing that it's harder to get up in the morning, and this year has been a very hard transition for some reason.  I've been exceedingly groggy most days now for the past three weeks.

[hbelkins]

Honestly, the DST people have already ruined Halloween.

How so? I would much rather have gone trick-or-treating with some daylight rather than in darkness.

Do we want them to ruin Christmas too?  I LIKE looking at Christmas lights on my commute home!

At that time of year, and as far north as you are, you're going to have plenty of darkness in December for your evening commute.

[Rothman]

Trick-or-treating was meant to be done at night.

[jeffandnicole]

Trick-or-treating was meant to be done at night.

And on Halloween.

[jakeroot]

My day is only 8 hours long (8:30-4:30), so I never leave before sunrise, and never get home after dusk (unless I'm running errands after work).  Plus I can see out the window from where I sit, so who cares if it's dark when I get home?  I don't need sunlight to watch TV or sit at the computer, and it's not like I can't see out the window at work.  Maybe there would be less demand for evening daylight if more workplaces had significant window coverage.  I can at least understand it for the unfortunate people who work in places with no windows.

Your use of "who" and "I" in the same sentence confuses me. If it literally makes no difference to you, why do you care? For some who drive to work in the dark already, but would drive home with some light in late December (if it were summer time year-round), it does make a difference.

From a purely medical standpoint, actually being out in the sunlight is better than just looking at it through a window.

I do find it interesting that people seem to be more fixated on sunset than sunrise.  Twilight seems to be considered as "day" for morning but "night" for evening.  In any case, I have been noticing that it's harder to get up in the morning, and this year has been a very hard transition for some reason.  I've been exceedingly groggy most days now for the past three weeks.

Well, most people wake up and immediately go to work. After work, there's usually 5-6 hours until bed-time. For that entire period after work to be dark for a month or two...it can be really depressing. Then you tie in my area's clouds and drizzle (very few sunny days in the winter), and winter is a tough time of year.

Personally, I don't find driving in the AM during dark hours to be difficult any time of year. Around here, rush hour starts going around 5 AM, which is still before sunrise on the longest day of the year (though only just barely). Based on that fact alone, I would guess that most people don't find driving to work in the dark to be an issue.

[tradephoric]

Now that Europe is getting rid of the clock changes in 2019, is it time for the federal government to amend the Uniform Time Act of 1966 to make Daylight Saving time permanent in America?

No.

It was more of a rhetorical question.  At this point the writing is on the wall that time changes in America are numbered.  Europe is getting rid of the time-changes next year and several state legislators have already shown support for getting rid of the time changes in America.  It's just going to take some action from the federal government to get it done.

[kphoger]

Trick-or-treating was meant to be done at night.

And on Halloween.

AMEN! to both

[vdeane]

At that time of year, and as far north as you are, you're going to have plenty of darkness in December for your evening commute.

I get off work at 4:30.  I get home around 4:50, barring errands (usually grocery shopping or getting quarters from the bank).  Earliest sunset here, at present, is around 4:21.  Earliest end of civil twilight (around which people usually turn on their Christmas lights) is 4:53 or so.  Earliest end of nautical twilight (when I personally consider night to begin) is around 5:28 (even when I do have errants, I'm home by this point).  All those times (except for when I get off work/get home) shift forwards an hour in permanent DST.  No Christmas lights then.  I'll only get to see them once a week, on Saturday, when I get my takeout pizza/wings... and even then, it won't be true night any more when I leave (earliest end of anstronmetrical twilight is currently around 6:02), so I won't be able to appreciate the night sky.  I also like driving through the suburbs at night, with the sky dark and the surroundings illuminated by the lights from the businesses, so I won't be able to enjoy that as much either.

Your use of "who" and "I" in the same sentence confuses me. If it literally makes no difference to you, why do you care? For some who drive to work in the dark already, but would drive home with some light in late December (if it were summer time year-round), it does make a difference.

From a purely medical standpoint, actually being out in the sunlight is better than just looking at it through a window.

Well, I think my comments above show that it DOES make a difference for me.  Unlike most Americans, who would have the same day length as the summer solstice year-round if it were possible, I actually like how the day length varies with the seasons.  And, of course, you can't change sunset without also changing sunrise.

I'm not really out in the sunlight much any time of the year.  What time sunset is doesn't really affect that.  Plus it's too cold to be outside much that time of the year anyways.

Well, most people wake up and immediately go to work. After work, there's usually 5-6 hours until bed-time. For that entire period after work to be dark for a month or two...it can be really depressing. Then you tie in my area's clouds and drizzle (very few sunny days in the winter), and winter is a tough time of year.

Personally, I don't find driving in the AM during dark hours to be difficult any time of year. Around here, rush hour starts going around 5 AM, which is still before sunrise on the longest day of the year (though only just barely). Based on that fact alone, I would guess that most people don't find driving to work in the dark to be an issue.

It's not driving being difficult that's the problem (I'm awake by the time I'm ready to leave).  It's getting out of bed.  Maybe you don't have a hard time getting out of bed when it's dark out, but I do.  I already feel like I get up way, way too early (my alarm goes off at 5:50; if I'm good that day, I only keep hitting the snooze alarm until 6:08-6:17, but often I don't have the willpower to drag myself out of bed until 6:20-6:30; in an ideal world, I'd sleep until until at least 9-10 every single day, and I do on Sunday - Saturdays, I sleep in even later!).  Latest end of "true night" around here is currently around 5:43.  If we had year-round DST, it would literally be as dark as midnight when I get up a large chunk of the year.  You think THAT doesn't have a psychological impact?

5 AM start to rush hour?  Yeesh.  Proof positive that big cities have too much congestion to be livable!  Around here, rush hour doesn't start until 7:30, and the peak time is 8.

I don't mind clouds/drizzle.  I find the dreary conditions to be very meditative, in fact.  I do have an overall melancholic disposition, though.  In any case, plenty of sunny days in winter around here.  Most days, in fact, when it's not snowing.

Since I'm a girl, there's only so much I can compress my routine.  I can't do the "roll out of bed, pull some clothes on, get in car, and go to work" routine that many guys have (hair and eyebrows that aren't messy, in particular, take quite a bit of time, and I insist on eating breakfast).

[english si]

Looks like Europe will go from having proper time zones to being a mish-mash of Summer and Winter time.

Yeah, 'proper' time zones like having Vigo nearly 2 hours (3 in summer) ahead of solar time just because one long-dead fascist dictator decided on moving a whole country to Berlin time because he thought another fascist dictator could do with some solidarity as that dictator violently took over most of Europe...   

Possible time zone changes, no matter how unlikely, are as follows:

• Azores from -1 to 0: almost certainly going to happen. Year-round summer time.
• Canary Islands from 0 to +1: if the rest of Spain stays CET then this might happen. However WET is year-round summer time anyway.
• Portugal from 0 to +1: possible, but more likely Spain will go the other way. WET is year-round summer time anyway for almost everyone in Portugal
• Ireland from 0 to +1: perhaps, as it would align with UK 7 months, rather than 5 months, until they drop summer time, but I'd imagine that they'd not want to admit that they are tied to the UK, so they'll sell it as being about France and Germany. I doubt they'd seek an opt out of the directive - and the EU Commission would reject it as it wouldn't help their strategy of escalating the Northern Irish question as a way of forcing the UK into a position where it has to choose to kneecap itself as a lesson to others who might want to leave their mafia gang.
  
• Spain from +1 to 0: still likely, though the the wind has been knocked out of the sails of the WET campaign that was almost there in getting Spain to change timezone (the EU Commission's plan to stop this divergence from a potential Single European Time worked, even though it meant doing disgusting populism, ie asking people what they think!). Should this happen, Catalonia will de facto stay CET out of spite unless France goes also
• France +1 to 0: Macron won't allow it (not least as it gets in his way of being Emperor, I mean President). I'd say that the slim odds of diverging from a CET-Germany go from about 10% to about 1%. Victory for the Commission with this shrewd political move. (as an aside, Corsica wouldn't move - a bit like Catalonia, only with more power to do so, and with more reason not to move)
• Benelux +1 to 0: Highly unlikely - Germany would need to go to +2 (so they aren't breaking alignment with Germany) and France 0, and the three countries decide to align, and align with France and geography rather than sitting in the middle or aligning with Germany
• Germany +1 to +2: would the draw of Berlin time outweigh Germany being stereotypically the sorts who love the idea of year-round summer time, attracted by the arguments and indifferent to the counter-arguments? They won't like being on Eastern European Time though, with the negative connotations of 'Eastern Europe'. I'd say that about 80% to 20% that they stick on CET. But if they don't, dominoes will fall...
• France +1 to +2: the EU-skeptic Parliament that will be elected won't allow it, and it would just be a few thousand Frenchies who'd favour alignment with Germany whatever in this case - but all of them have considerable power. Maybe odds of 10% if the Germans go for EET.
• Benelux +1 to +2: Unlikely they will do this, even if Germany does.
• Sweden +1 to +2: Highly unlikely as Denmark won't change if Germany does (as they hate the Germans due to the war), and Malmo-Copenhagen being one time zone is more important than aligning with Finland in the north, or with places across the sea
• Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Austria, Hungary +1 to +2: Only would happen if Germany goes. It's their natural time (save some fringes in the east) and they really don't like the term 'Eastern Europe' as it makes them sound like bumpkins. None are likely to not change if Germany does change.
• Italy +1 to +2: unlikely (and Sardinia won't go, for similar reasons to Catalonia and Corsica) and probably relies on France making the move too, but possible
• Finland +2 to +3: unlikely as no other EU member will move to FEET, 2 hours off most EU countries (should Germany not change) is too much, and if a large chunk of the EU will align with your time, why change to not align?
• Baltic states +2 to +3: snowball's chance in hell of these countries going to Moscow Time
• Cyprus +2 to +3: ditto, but Turkey rather than Russia are the bad guys
• Greece +2 to +3: a large chunk of the country is naturally CET. Highly unlikely
• Romania and Bulgaria +2 to +3: see Finland, plus these two countries are trying to shed off their 'Eastern bumpkins' vibe. To move to 'Far-eastern European Time' is not going to happen for marketing reasons as much as pragmatic. Plus, the only +3 country they'd border is Turkey, whom they don't really like.

I'd say (outside of the Atlantic Islands) Spain changing is most likely, though the likelihood is much down vs before, followed by Germany (and thus a domino effect in Central Europe). France changing to WET, at 1%, is going to be the next highest...

Non-EU states will change to the EU norm as follows:

• Iceland, Russia, Belarus, Turkey: don't do summer time anyway
• Microstates: will copy their neighbours, though Andorra is complicated by having two ways it will go (though Catalonia wanting to stay on CET to be different reduces that)
• Ukraine: won't go Moscow time, won't stick around with summer time when no one it does business does it
• Moldova: will follow Romania (and Transnistria will be fine with Kaliningrad time)
• Norway and Western Balkans: will follow the countries around them, won't change time zone
• Switzerland (and Liechtenstein): will be a bit more controversial, but not changing the clocks twice a year will not affect national identity of independent and neutral enough to outweigh pragmatism
• UK: because the EU-UK divorce will be as the EU wants - ie messy, the political capital to align with Europe on this will be initially low for a while. They'll do it, though won't go CET (year-round CET gets proposed every 5 years or so and falls flat on its face). It'll probably need Canada or Australia dropping summer time (the US doing so will make the EU-nationalists that will be the main cheerleaders go lukewarm)

I'd suggest Spain won't change if Germany does - again, 2 hours is too much of a difference.

So here's the most likely 2022 scenarios (pragmatic/political unofficial time zones ignored). I've assumed the UK hasn't quite made a decision, but other non-EU states have by then.

No big change:
WET: all Portugal (inc Azores), Canary Islands, Iceland, Ireland
WET with summer time: UK
CET: Spain, Andorra, France, Monaco, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Italy, Vatican, San Marino, Malta, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia
EET: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kalingrad, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus
FEET: Russia, Belarus, Turkey

Spain changes:
WET: all Portugal, all Spain, Iceland, Ireland
WET with summer time: UK
CET: Andorra, France (WET movement back on), Monaco, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Italy, Vatican, San Marino, Malta, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia
EET: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kalingrad, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus
FEET: Russia, Belarus, Turkey

Germany changes:
WET - renamed as Atlantic Time?: Azores + Madeira, mainland Portugal(?), Canary Islands, Iceland
WET with summer time (GMT): UK
CET - renamed as WET: Ireland (two hour difference with Berlin gives excuse for the change, which they'll undo when UK drops summer time, citing the suicide and depression stats), mainland Portugal(?), Spain, Andorra, France, Monaco, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Italy(?), Vatican(?), San Marino(?)
EET - renamed as CET: Germany, Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Austria, Malta, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Kalingrad, Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Italy(?), Vatican(?), San Marino(?)
FEET - not renamed as they want to pretend there's distance: Russia, Belarus, Turkey

Also, don't forget that the EU could stop silly looking time zone islands within its member states. They make up rules as they go along.

[vdeane]

I was thinking "proper time zones" in the sense that continental Europe has three time zones covering a contiguous area (IMO Spain and France, possibly Belgium and the Netherlands as well, should be on WET, but that's not what I was getting at with the post in question).  The way I interpreted this stuff happening is that the existing time zone boundaries would remain the same, with each country choosing summer time or winter time, leading to the three time zones becoming (on paper) six, and potentially the nice, contiguous boundaries becoming more scattered, kinda like the border between Belgium and the Netherlands near Barrle-Hertog.  For example, if Spain chose winter time but Portugal chose summer time, they'd have the same time on the clock but technically be in two different time zones (Western European Summer vs. Central European).  Especially since trade talks about it as if it's part of a global movement for permanent DST/summer time.

Regarding Iceland, Turkey, and Belarus, while they don't change the clocks, are essentially on permanent summer time.  Iceland appears to be thinking about going back to its traditional time zone at -1.

[kphoger]

For example, if Spain chose winter time but Portugal chose summer time, they'd have the same time on the clock but technically be in two different time zones (Western European Summer vs. Central European).

Like Arizona and California 65% of the time?

[20160805]

I was thinking "proper time zones" in the sense that continental Europe has three time zones covering a contiguous area (IMO Spain and France, possibly Belgium and the Netherlands as well, should be on WET, but that's not what I was getting at with the post in question).  The way I interpreted this stuff happening is that the existing time zone boundaries would remain the same, with each country choosing summer time or winter time, leading to the three time zones becoming (on paper) six, and potentially the nice, contiguous boundaries becoming more scattered, kinda like the border between Belgium and the Netherlands near Barrle-Hertog.  For example, if Spain chose winter time but Portugal chose summer time, they'd have the same time on the clock but technically be in two different time zones (Western European Summer vs. Central European).  Especially since trade talks about it as if it's part of a global movement for permanent DST/summer time.

Regarding Iceland, Turkey, and Belarus, while they don't change the clocks, are essentially on permanent summer time.  Iceland appears to be thinking about going back to its traditional time zone at -1.

If they have the same time on the clock year-round, then they're in the same time zone by definition. 

[jakeroot]

If they have the same time on the clock year-round, then they're in the same time zone by definition. 

If they were in two different time zones, but one was using summer time, and the other using winter time, they could be in two different time zones, but have the same time. The easiest way to avoid this, is to just choose the correct time zone for the chosen preference. I don't see this as a legitimate concern (vdeane).

[kphoger]

I was thinking "proper time zones" in the sense that continental Europe has three time zones covering a contiguous area (IMO Spain and France, possibly Belgium and the Netherlands as well, should be on WET, but that's not what I was getting at with the post in question).  The way I interpreted this stuff happening is that the existing time zone boundaries would remain the same, with each country choosing summer time or winter time, leading to the three time zones becoming (on paper) six, and potentially the nice, contiguous boundaries becoming more scattered, kinda like the border between Belgium and the Netherlands near Barrle-Hertog.  For example, if Spain chose winter time but Portugal chose summer time, they'd have the same time on the clock but technically be in two different time zones (Western European Summer vs. Central European).  Especially since trade talks about it as if it's part of a global movement for permanent DST/summer time.

Regarding Iceland, Turkey, and Belarus, while they don't change the clocks, are essentially on permanent summer time.  Iceland appears to be thinking about going back to its traditional time zone at -1.

If they have the same time on the clock year-round, then they're in the same time zone by definition. 

If you consider Mountain Standard Time and Pacific Daylight Time to be the same time zone, then yes.  I suspect that most people wouldn't actually consider those two to be the same time zone, even though the time on the clock is the same.

[english si]

If they have the same time on the clock year-round, then they're in the same time zone by definition. 

If you consider Mountain Standard Time and Pacific Daylight Time to be the same time zone, then yes.  I suspect that most people wouldn't actually consider those two to be the same time zone, even though the time on the clock is the same.

Pointing out what you are ignoring...

And there's no way the EU would allow there to be 6 time zones with 3 different times - they forced Ireland to change from being on 'Irish Standard Time' of UTC+1 with winter time of UTC (which was just to be technically different to the UK) to have summer time. They would love just 1 time zone - the main reason why the EU Commission even considered asking the plebs about an issue directly (rather than electing faceless party stooges to think on their behalf) like 'war-mongering populists', was to take the wind out of the sails of the movement to change time zone in Spain (and, to a lesser extent, France). They view it bad enough with 3 member states an hour behind, and 8 member states an hour ahead, of the other 17 - best not let the norm fall to 16 or 15 of 27, and maybe the bonus of gaining another conformee in the form of Ireland or Portugal.

[vdeane]

Perhaps the EU should take a look at China and ask themselves if they really want people to start observing unofficial time zones just because they want everyone on Berlin time.

In any case, I was assuming the EU proposal was like trade's proposal for the US to extend the date range for DST to cover the entire year and then have states decide on whether to observe "DST" or not - the articles don't really say anything contradicting that.

If they have the same time on the clock year-round, then they're in the same time zone by definition. 

If they were in two different time zones, but one was using summer time, and the other using winter time, they could be in two different time zones, but have the same time. The easiest way to avoid this, is to just choose the correct time zone for the chosen preference. I don't see this as a legitimate concern (vdeane).

That's assuming time zones would be redrawn based on said preferences.  That's not what the article said.  Nor does it match up with anything trade has proposed for the US.

[jakeroot]

If they have the same time on the clock year-round, then they're in the same time zone by definition. 

If they were in two different time zones, but one was using summer time, and the other using winter time, they could be in two different time zones, but have the same time. The easiest way to avoid this, is to just choose the correct time zone for the chosen preference. I don't see this as a legitimate concern (vdeane).

That's assuming time zones would be redrawn based on said preferences.  That's not what the article said.  Nor does it match up with anything trade has proposed for the US.

The article just states that individual states must decide "DST or not", but it doesn't outright prohibit each state from changing it's time zone as well, if it so chooses.

[tradephoric]

Will Proposition 7 pass in California in the upcoming midterms?  Someone would have to lay me very high odds to bet against its passage. 

2018 VOTER GUIDE: A look at California's Proposition 7: Permanent Daylight Saving Measure
https://abc7news.com/politics/2018-voter-guide-a-look-at-californias-proposition-7/4330830/

[tradephoric]

The LA Times has an editorial encouraging voters to vote YES on proposition 7 in the upcoming elections.

Vote yes on Proposition 7 to force another look at daylight saving time
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-proposition-7-endorsement-20180929-story.html

A national conversation has gotten started. In fact, there's a growing national and even global movement to dump the time change. Lawmakers in more than a dozen U.S. states have considered legislation to remain on permanent daylight saving time, though only Florida has voted to do so. The European Union will stop changing its clocks next year, allowing its member countries to decide whether to adopt permanent daylight savings.

Obviously, the best way to proceed is with a nationwide standard, set by legislation such as the Sunshine Protection Act by U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) that would make daylight saving time permanent across the nation. The inconvenience of a meaningless tradition is far better than the confusion that would come from states observing a mishmash of different times. In fact, the lack of a common approach to daylight saving time led Congress to adopt the Uniform Time Act of 1966, which set the dates when clocks moved back and forth.

Passing Proposition 7 wouldn't necessarily make California an outlier, but would allow the state the flexibility in the future to join a national movement to adopt permanent daylight saving time, as well as signaling to Congress that the time is up for this clock-changing nonsense.