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NY 135 to I-287 Redesignation?

Started by TML, February 28, 2018, 12:49:56 PM

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TML

Back in the 1960s-70s, the plan was to re-designate NY 135 as I-287 upon the completion of the Oyster Bay-Rye Bridge.

I realize that back then, the standards for Interstate designation were less stringent than they are today. This made me wonder: if by some chance a bridge or tunnel linking 135 and 287 is actually built (and this idea never seems to go away, regardless of how much opposition there is against it), would 135 be re-designated as 287, or would the 135 designation remain due to today's higher Interstate designation standards?


Alps

I assume that the freeway would need to be brought up to modern standards to be considered for an Interstate designation. The days of grandfathering are gone.

The Ghostbuster

I highly doubt a NY 135-to-Interstate 287 conversion would happen even if the $55 billion tunnel is built. I'd imagine the NY 135 designation would be extended northward along to the yet-to-be-built (if ever built) tunnel to terminate at the Interstate 95/Interstate 287 interchange.

Alps

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 04:47:27 PM
I highly doubt a NY 135-to-Interstate 287 conversion would happen even if the $55 billion tunnel is built. I'd imagine the NY 135 designation would be extended northward along to the yet-to-be-built (if ever built) tunnel to terminate at the Interstate 95/Interstate 287 interchange.
Hm, I don't know if the tunnel being I-287 vs. NY 135 would make any difference in terms of funding, environmental requirements, etc. I'm sure it would be a corridor of national importance and therefore still subject to Federal scrutiny at some level - unless it being a fully toll-supported facility would waive that requirement. I'm just familiar enough with that process to be dangerously wrong. I could see I-287 ending at I-495 - wouldn't really have to do much of anything for that.

Beltway

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 04:47:27 PM
I highly doubt a NY 135-to-Interstate 287 conversion would happen even if the $55 billion tunnel is built.

Who came up with that figure?  Sounds like someone overestimated the cost by an order of magnitude so that they could "prove" that it is unaffordable.
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Alps

Quote from: Beltway on February 28, 2018, 11:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 04:47:27 PM
I highly doubt a NY 135-to-Interstate 287 conversion would happen even if the $55 billion tunnel is built.

Who came up with that figure?  Sounds like someone overestimated the cost by an order of magnitude so that they could "prove" that it is unaffordable.
That may be the most realistic tunnel number ever quoted. Look at the final design cost estimates from Boston and Seattle vs. actuals.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on March 01, 2018, 12:33:33 AM
Quote from: Beltway on February 28, 2018, 11:31:34 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 28, 2018, 04:47:27 PM
I highly doubt a NY 135-to-Interstate 287 conversion would happen even if the $55 billion tunnel is built.
Who came up with that figure?  Sounds like someone overestimated the cost by an order of magnitude so that they could "prove" that it is unaffordable.
That may be the most realistic tunnel number ever quoted. Look at the final design cost estimates from Boston and Seattle vs. actuals.

Pretty much 8 to 10 times the figure for recent similar length bay crossings in other parts of the world.

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Buffaboy

This seems like fictional highway territory. But if you look on the map, about 1/3 or 1/4 of the RoW is already there for a surface freeway, then you just have to acquire a hundred or so (maybe less) houses. What would be needed is a causeway bridge to connect to Rye to make it happen.

One would think the big monied interests in the Hamptons would want this kind of thing.
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Beltway

#8
Quote from: Buffaboy on March 01, 2018, 09:47:31 AM
This seems like fictional highway territory. But if you look on the map, about 1/3 or 1/4 of the RoW is already there for a surface freeway, then you just have to acquire a hundred or so (maybe less) houses. What would be needed is a causeway bridge to connect to Rye to make it happen.
One would think the big monied interests in the Hamptons would want this kind of thing.

Long Island population is 2.9 million, using that of the counties of Nassau and Suffolk.  They really do need a connection to the mainland that doesn't have to pass thru New York City's already extremely busy highway system.

Probably two crossings should be planned in the long term, the first being a 6-lane NY-NY connection from I-287 southward being given priority, and then a 4-lane mid-Sound crossing to Bridgeport some time in the future, maybe distant future.

Question:  Does Connecticut have enough official interest to participate in a mid-Sound project where they might have to provide half of the funding to build it?
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Roadgeek Adam

The problem is I don't think 287 can end at Merrick Road like 135 can. Even if you extended it to the Wantagh State Parkway, the interstate highway designation I don't think can end at that.

Someone who's better on AASHTO rules can answer, but I think 135 going from Merrick Road to Rye is more likely.
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Beeper1

Quote from: Beltway on March 01, 2018, 12:46:11 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on March 01, 2018, 09:47:31 AM
This seems like fictional highway territory. But if you look on the map, about 1/3 or 1/4 of the RoW is already there for a surface freeway, then you just have to acquire a hundred or so (maybe less) houses. What would be needed is a causeway bridge to connect to Rye to make it happen.
One would think the big monied interests in the Hamptons would want this kind of thing.

Long Island population is 2.9 million, using that of the counties of Nassau and Suffolk.  They really do need a connection to the mainland that doesn't have to pass thru New York City's already extremely busy highway system.

Probably two crossings should be planned in the long term, the first being a 6-lane NY-NY connection from I-287 southward being given priority, and then a 4-lane mid-Sound crossing to Bridgeport some time in the future, maybe distant future.

Question:  Does Connecticut have enough official interest to participate in a mid-Sound project where they might have to provide half of the funding to build it?

Interest from CT?  Hell no. See posts in the Connecticut thread about building ANYTHING in Fairfield County.   Connecticut cant even afford to clean it's rest areas outside of banker's hours, let along something of this scale. Plus, to get it to a part of the state that doesn't have the political NIMBY clout to block it, you'd have to head east almost as far as New London.   

cl94

I mean, I'd count on a tunnel costing more than $20 billion. New TZ is $4 billion. Big Dig cost $7.5 billion in today's dollars. A link from NY 25 to the New England Thruway is 16+ miles, much of that being underwater. This would be a 6+ lane tunnel. A new 2-lane, 1-mile tunnel at the CBBT is costing over $750 million and that requires no land acquisition.

As far as NY 135, that's built to Interstate standards, as an I-287 conversion was indeed in the plans when the thing was built. I don't see the designation extending south of the LIE, though they may try to extend it to Sunrise Highway. Either way, they'd have to rebuild the LIE interchange to accommodate the heavy SB-EB movement.
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SectorZ

Quote from: cl94 on March 01, 2018, 06:33:40 PM
I mean, I'd count on a tunnel costing more than $20 billion. New TZ is $4 billion. Big Dig cost $7.5 billion in today's dollars. A link from NY 25 to the New England Thruway is 16+ miles, much of that being underwater. This would be a 6+ lane tunnel. A new 2-lane, 1-mile tunnel at the CBBT is costing over $750 million and that requires no land acquisition.

As far as NY 135, that's built to Interstate standards, as an I-287 conversion was indeed in the plans when the thing was built. I don't see the designation extending south of the LIE, though they may try to extend it to Sunrise Highway. Either way, they'd have to rebuild the LIE interchange to accommodate the heavy SB-EB movement.

The Big Dig cost $24.3 billion in it's old-day dollars. Probably north of $30-$35 billion in today's dollars.

Beltway

Quote from: SectorZ on March 02, 2018, 09:01:12 AM
The Big Dig cost $24.3 billion in it's old-day dollars. Probably north of $30-$35 billion in today's dollars.

Cost $14.6 billion.
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Beltway

Quote from: SectorZ on March 02, 2018, 01:47:24 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 02, 2018, 10:48:52 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on March 02, 2018, 09:01:12 AM
The Big Dig cost $24.3 billion in it's old-day dollars. Probably north of $30-$35 billion in today's dollars.
Cost $14.6 billion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig
http://legacy.wbur.org/2012/07/12/7-things-that-cost-less-than-the-big-dig
https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2015/12/29/years-later-did-big-dig-deliver/tSb8PIMS4QJUETsMpA7SpI/story.html
https://www.boston.com/uncategorized/noprimarytagmatch/2012/07/10/true-cost-of-big-dig-exceeds-24-billion-with-interest-officials-determine
I count all the cost, including the $9 billion in interest.

Wiki --
"However, the project was completed in December 2007 at a cost of over $14.6 billion ($8.08 billion in 1982 dollars, meaning a cost overrun of about 190%) as of 2006.  The Boston Globe estimated that the project will ultimately cost $22 billion, including interest, and that it would not be paid off until 2038."

SMS:  That supposed ultimate cost is only a very long range estimate, which includes bonds issued for the project funding.

Construction cost was $14.6 billion as finaled on the contracts.  That is the relevant figure in a discussion about costs for current project proposals.

In any event, comparing an urban project like the Big Dig to the Long Island crossing is comparing apples to oranges, they are very different projects.  It will take a detailed and honest engineering estimate to determine what a proposed project would cost.
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Beltway

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Bobby5280

I wouldn't be surprised at all if such a tunnel did carry a $55 billion price tag. Cost inflation on any bridge or tunnel project in the United States is pretty damned extreme. Factor that into the decades of time it literally takes to move any major infrastructure project from concept to completion. Let's face it. The United States really really sucks at this stuff anymore. Sure the road, bridge or tunnel might possibly be really nice or even state of the art when it is finally finished. Unfortunately these projects end up costing so much and taking so long to build that you'll literally see some of the planners who started working on the project die of old age before it gets finished. At the rate this nation is currently going we're going to completely lose our ability to build any big things at all before long.

Quote from: BeltwayPretty much 8 to 10 times the figure for recent similar length bay crossings in other parts of the world.

Again, not surprising at all. Over in China they built the Duge Beipanjiang Bridge for 1 billion Yuan, about $144 million in 2016 dollars (the year the bridge opened). For those not familiar with this cable stayed bridge it's now the world's tallest bridge, the first to have a road deck more than 500 meters above grade. Here in the United States we couldn't build such a bridge without it costing at least $2 to $3 billion.

Bridges are definitely cheaper to build than tunnels. Unfortunately there is no way in hell a bridge approach could ever be built from the I-95/I-287 interchange in Rye/Port Chester. There are big mansions all over the coastline there. Down on Long Island a little of the ROW for a NY-135 Northern extension is still unoccupied North of Jericho Turnpike. Getting farther North into Syosset there's all kinds of upper middle class and upper class homes. I don't even see the possibility of building an at-grade freeway into that area. There's sure no way in hell anyone is building a big bridge out of Oyster Bay. Once again, engineers are going to be stuck with tunneling.

If the project was actually pursued seriously the whole thing would probably end up being one really long tunnel, with a lot of the tunnel going a long way under dry land. On Long Island the tunnel would probably have to be built almost down to the current spot where NY-135 ends. The only way a bridge in the Long Island Sound could be worked into the project is if the highway came out of tunnels a mile from the shoreline. And even then the rich folks living on either coast line would probably be furious about a bridge interrupting their view.

Of course if a similar project of this kind was being built in China it would be no sweat for that government. I'm not advocating some of the practices they use for bulldozing major infrastructure projects through any place they like. On the other hand they're actually getting things done though (and done without it breaking the bank). We can't seem to find any happy medium here in the US.

Buffaboy

What a depressing but accurate post. I'm 21 right now. Will I be 61 by the time some of these projects open? Or will they not even emerge from the drawing board?

Meanwhile, China is building bridges and freeways like it's 1957.
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The Ghostbuster

I kind of expect this tunnel proposal, like other tunnel proposals, to ultimately not be constructed. Expense, duration of construction period, and potential NIMBYs all being factors in this assumption.

Beltway

Again, I cite the tunnel between Germany and Denmark that is about to begin construction.  16 miles long, immersed tube construction under a bay, two 2-lane highway tubes and a 2-track railroad tube, all in one reinforced concrete box structure.  Cost estimate equal to $9 billion USD.  Densely populated industrialized countries.

I would like to see a detailed engineering estimate of the materials and costs for a Long Island crossing, as I don't think anything of the sort has been compiled yet.
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vdeane

Tunnels cost a LOT more in the US than in Europe.  Why, I don't know, but they do.
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Alps

Quote from: vdeane on March 05, 2018, 07:15:46 PM
Tunnels cost a LOT more in the US than in Europe.  Why, I don't know, but they do.
Unions

vdeane

Isn't Europe more unionized than the US?
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