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Why would they build I-95 and I-476 like this?

Started by Tonytone, September 11, 2018, 09:34:28 PM

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jemacedo9

Quote from: Beltway on October 14, 2018, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on October 14, 2018, 04:57:18 PM
Quote from: Alps on October 14, 2018, 03:42:43 PM
KOP connector: I dig. Would this have tied into the Schuylkill or paralleled it? Either way, a lot better than the extra length and traffic you have to fight to go from 76 east to 95 south via 476 now.
That's the Radnor Spur, which would've fed directly into the US 422 expressway and presumably would've been an extension of that route.

I searched around on the Internet but cannot find a map that shows the whole spur.  Can't find a map of the US-30 Wayne Bypass that I mentioned earlier, either. 

Anyone know of any?  It would be helpful for other people to see a picture of what was proposed.

Roadsguy is correct...I once had an old Alfred B Patton map that showed the proposed Radnor Spur, connecting directly with US 422 at US 202.  But I've never seen anything with a Wayne Bypass.


Beltway

Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 14, 2018, 10:03:47 PM
Roadsguy is correct...I once had an old Alfred B Patton map that showed the proposed Radnor Spur, connecting directly with US 422 at US 202.  But I've never seen anything with a Wayne Bypass.

Follows the "Radnor Trail", you can follow it west to near Devon.  Back then it was a recently abandoned P&W Railroad spur from the line at Radnor.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0359393,-75.3679205,692m/data=!3m1!1e3
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Hot Rod Hootenanny

Quote from: Beltway on October 14, 2018, 07:44:59 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on October 14, 2018, 04:57:18 PM

I searched around on the Internet but cannot find a map that shows the whole spur.  Can't find a map of the US-30 Wayne Bypass that I mentioned earlier, either. 

Anyone know of any?  It would be helpful for other people to see a picture of what was proposed.

I've never seen any maps of a "Wayne Bypass." For those of you unaware of the geography & history of the Main Line, the "Wayne Bypass" would have used the old right-of-way of the Philadelphia & Western electric RR from Villanova to Stratford. The right-of-way in question parallels Conestoga Rd, in Radnor Twp, for the most part, and is today used as the Radnor Multipurpose Trail (http://www.radnor.com/radnortrail)
The first time I heard of the "Wayne Bypass," was by you, Scott, back in the MTR days, based on your employment at PennDOT in the 70s. Though, from what I had seen of the old P&W (My grandparents house was 60 yds away from the P&W, along Church Rd), I don't know if it was wide enough for 2 lanes of traffic. Knowing how much those along the P&W right-of-way protested turning the old railline into a bike trail, I don't believe these folks would have willingly give up land, or easements, for what would have amounted to a "Super Two" expressway.
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

Hot Rod Hootenanny

BTW,
Alex, several years back, had posted several scans of proposed interchanges along the Blue Route, that were shown on Franklin Maps, or Alfred B Patton Maps (as jemacedo9 already referenced in this thread) from the 70s/early 80s.
They might be listed in the AAroads blog, or in another thread on this board.
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

Tonytone

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 14, 2018, 10:52:49 PM
BTW,
Alex, several years back, had posted several scans of proposed interchanges along the Blue Route, that were shown on Franklin Maps, or Alfred B Patton Maps (as jemacedo9 already referenced in this thread) from the 70s/early 80s.
They might be listed in the AAroads blog, or in another thread on this board.
You can search up the thread.


iPhone
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Hot Rod Hootenanny

Quote from: Tonytone on October 14, 2018, 10:53:26 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 14, 2018, 10:52:49 PM
BTW,
Alex, several years back, had posted several scans of proposed interchanges along the Blue Route, that were shown on Franklin Maps, or Alfred B Patton Maps (as jemacedo9 already referenced in this thread) from the 70s/early 80s.
They might be listed in the AAroads blog, or in another thread on this board.
You can search up the thread.


iPhone

Found the thread I was speaking of...
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7494
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

Beltway

The Wayne Bypass was planned as a 4-lane highway, obviously that would have entailed wider right-of-way than that of the P&W Railroad.  Following a former railroad at least would have followed a transportation corridor thereby not having the same impacts as thru virgin territory.  It was meant to provide traffic relief to US-30 Lancaster Avenue.  As was said there was a lot of local opposition that led to it being canceled.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Alps

Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 14, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 14, 2018, 10:53:26 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 14, 2018, 10:52:49 PM
BTW,
Alex, several years back, had posted several scans of proposed interchanges along the Blue Route, that were shown on Franklin Maps, or Alfred B Patton Maps (as jemacedo9 already referenced in this thread) from the 70s/early 80s.
They might be listed in the AAroads blog, or in another thread on this board.
You can search up the thread.


iPhone

Found the thread I was speaking of...
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7494
Still more iterations of interchanges on that one.

Beltway

#58
Quote from: Alps on October 15, 2018, 02:14:06 AM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 14, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Found the thread I was speaking of...
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7494
Still more iterations of interchanges on that one.

Looks like a Delaware County map from about 1977, per the stage of completion of I-95 where it ends just west of the airport.  I have this map somewhere in my map collections.  I believe this map was accurate for that date. 

I-476 interchanges on the segment from PA-3 to Baltimore Pike were downscaled in the early 1980s due to the consent decree that provided compromises to get I-476 completed.  That included only 4 mainline lanes south of PA-3 West Chester Pike.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
You can see a full cloverleaf interchange in place of the diamond that currently exists between I-476 and Baltimore Pike

Full cloverleaf interchange appropriate given that Baltimore Pike was and is a 4-lane arterial.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
The Volleyball at US 1 was planned as a partial interchange, with some movements, like US 30 to I-476 north handled by an interchange at PA 320 (which does not exist today).

3 pairs of movements at US-1 and the 4th was handled at the interchange at PA-320.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
Further north, the unbuilt tri-level interchange mentioned somewhere else on the forum

For the Lansdowne Expressway which would have connected to the I-695 Cobbs Creek Expressway.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
A few more ramps were envisioned to join Interstate 476 with U.S. 30 than what was actually built.

The more ample design that I mentioned earlier.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
A huge interchange complex was proposed along Interstate 95 for Philadelphia International Airport and the unconstructed Cobbs Creek Expressway (Interstate 695). Note also the new alignment for PA-291, a number of platted streets that were never built and that I-95 defaulted onto PA-291 to the west (until its completion in 1985).

That is the old alignment of PA-291 Industrial Highway before being relocated thru the I-95 project and northern expansion of the airport property.  The old Airport Circle is visible on the edge of the map, it connected PA-291 with Island Avenue.  The dashed road north of I-95 is Relocated Bartram Avenue.  I'm pretty sure that street grid south of there was very old housing that was condemned for the I-95 and airport expansion projects.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Tonytone

Quote from: Beltway on October 15, 2018, 07:08:36 AM
Quote from: Alps on October 15, 2018, 02:14:06 AM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 14, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Found the thread I was speaking of...
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7494
Still more iterations of interchanges on that one.

Looks like a Delaware County map from about 1977, per the stage of completion of I-95 where it ends just west of the airport.  I have this map somewhere in my map collections.  I believe this map was accurate for that date. 

I-476 interchanges on the segment from PA-3 to Baltimore Pike were downscaled in the early 1980s due to the consent decree that provided compromises to get I-476 completed.  That included only 4 mainline lanes south of PA-3 West Chester Pike.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
You can see a full cloverleaf interchange in place of the diamond that currently exists between I-476 and Baltimore Pike

Full cloverleaf interchange appropriate given that Baltimore Pike was and is a 4-lane arterial.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
The Volleyball at US 1 was planned as a partial interchange, with some movements, like US 30 to I-476 north handled by an interchange at PA 320 (which does not exist today).

3 pairs of movements at US-1 and the 4th was handled at the interchange at PA-320.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
Further north, the unbuilt tri-level interchange mentioned somewhere else on the forum

For the Lansdowne Expressway which would have connected to the I-695 Cobbs Creek Expressway.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
A few more ramps were envisioned to join Interstate 476 with U.S. 30 than what was actually built.

The more ample design that I mentioned earlier.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
A huge interchange complex was proposed along Interstate 95 for Philadelphia International Airport and the unconstructed Cobbs Creek Expressway (Interstate 695). Note also the new alignment for PA-291, a number of platted streets that were never built and that I-95 defaulted onto PA-291 to the west (until its completion in 1985).

That is the old alignment of PA-291 Industrial Highway before being relocated thru the I-95 project and northern expansion of the airport property.  The old Airport Circle is visible on the edge of the map, it connected PA-291 with Island Avenue.  The dashed road north of I-95 is Relocated Bartram Avenue.  I'm pretty sure that street grid south of there was very old housing that was condemned for the I-95 and airport expansion projects.

Could you imagine if they built all those new streets by the airport. Was that gonna be more houses or more skyscrapers?


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Promoting Cities since 1998!

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Tonytone on October 15, 2018, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 15, 2018, 07:08:36 AM
Quote from: Alps on October 15, 2018, 02:14:06 AM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 14, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Found the thread I was speaking of...
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7494
Still more iterations of interchanges on that one.

Looks like a Delaware County map from about 1977, per the stage of completion of I-95 where it ends just west of the airport.  I have this map somewhere in my map collections.  I believe this map was accurate for that date. 

I-476 interchanges on the segment from PA-3 to Baltimore Pike were downscaled in the early 1980s due to the consent decree that provided compromises to get I-476 completed.  That included only 4 mainline lanes south of PA-3 West Chester Pike.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
You can see a full cloverleaf interchange in place of the diamond that currently exists between I-476 and Baltimore Pike

Full cloverleaf interchange appropriate given that Baltimore Pike was and is a 4-lane arterial.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
The Volleyball at US 1 was planned as a partial interchange, with some movements, like US 30 to I-476 north handled by an interchange at PA 320 (which does not exist today).

3 pairs of movements at US-1 and the 4th was handled at the interchange at PA-320.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
Further north, the unbuilt tri-level interchange mentioned somewhere else on the forum

For the Lansdowne Expressway which would have connected to the I-695 Cobbs Creek Expressway.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
A few more ramps were envisioned to join Interstate 476 with U.S. 30 than what was actually built.

The more ample design that I mentioned earlier.

Quote from: Alex on August 16, 2012, 11:36:31 AM
A huge interchange complex was proposed along Interstate 95 for Philadelphia International Airport and the unconstructed Cobbs Creek Expressway (Interstate 695). Note also the new alignment for PA-291, a number of platted streets that were never built and that I-95 defaulted onto PA-291 to the west (until its completion in 1985).

That is the old alignment of PA-291 Industrial Highway before being relocated thru the I-95 project and northern expansion of the airport property.  The old Airport Circle is visible on the edge of the map, it connected PA-291 with Island Avenue.  The dashed road north of I-95 is Relocated Bartram Avenue.  I'm pretty sure that street grid south of there was very old housing that was condemned for the I-95 and airport expansion projects.

Could you imagine if they built all those new streets by the airport. Was that gonna be more houses or more skyscrapers?


iPhone

Housing or low-level commercial/industrial. Several stories at the most. FAA restrictions wouldn't permit skyscrapers.

Beltway

Quote from: Tonytone on October 15, 2018, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 15, 2018, 07:08:36 AM
I'm pretty sure that street grid south of there was very old housing that was condemned for the I-95 and airport expansion projects.
Could you imagine if they built all those new streets by the airport. Was that gonna be more houses or more skyscrapers?

My recollection is fuzzy but I think those were pre-existing streets with very old housing that was either still there or had been demolished due to blight.  The neighborhood had a name but I can't recall it.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Tonytone

Quote from: Beltway on October 15, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 15, 2018, 11:49:24 AM
Quote from: Beltway on October 15, 2018, 07:08:36 AM
I'm pretty sure that street grid south of there was very old housing that was condemned for the I-95 and airport expansion projects.
Could you imagine if they built all those new streets by the airport. Was that gonna be more houses or more skyscrapers?

My recollection is fuzzy but I think those were pre-existing streets with very old housing that was either still there or had been demolished due to blight.  The neighborhood had a name but I can't recall it.
So I assume that South Philly was actually bigger then what it is now. Thats a big amount of streets & plots.


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Beltway

Quote from: Tonytone on October 15, 2018, 02:18:42 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 15, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
My recollection is fuzzy but I think those were pre-existing streets with very old housing that was either still there or had been demolished due to blight.  The neighborhood had a name but I can't recall it.
So I assume that South Philly was actually bigger then what it is now. Thats a big amount of streets & plots.

Not part of South Philadelphia or West Philadelphia.  Southwest Philadelphia.

I think the neighborhood in question was called Eastwick.
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http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Tonytone

Quote from: Beltway on October 15, 2018, 02:27:32 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 15, 2018, 02:18:42 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 15, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
My recollection is fuzzy but I think those were pre-existing streets with very old housing that was either still there or had been demolished due to blight.  The neighborhood had a name but I can't recall it.
So I assume that South Philly was actually bigger then what it is now. Thats a big amount of streets & plots.

Not part of South Philadelphia or West Philadelphia.  Southwest Philadelphia.

I think the neighborhood in question was called Eastwick.

looking at Historical Aerials The neighborhood is kinda still there but went all the way to the airport, to bad they couldn't turn that area into something else, also on the map I notice that there was a roundabout near the Northeast area of the airport. They destroyed a big part of Philly just for the roads and Airport.
Promoting Cities since 1998!

PHLBOS

Quote from: Tonytone on October 15, 2018, 03:05:11 PMlooking at Historical Aerials The neighborhood is kinda still there but went all the way to the airport, to bad they couldn't turn that area into something else, also on the map I notice that there was a roundabout near the Northeast area of the airport. They destroyed a big part of Philly just for the roads and Airport.
If the roads & airport weren't there; what would you put in its place... and equally important, how would one get over there as well as goods & services be transported & delivered?

Another thing to keep in mind that the soil conditions in the airport area aren't exactly suitable for Center City-like development in terms of density.  One now-retired engineer at where I work at phrased it best, "If it weren't for the swampy-like soil conditions at the airport; there would've been skyscrapers there instead."
GPS does NOT equal GOD

BrianP

Agreed.  As far as I could tell from the old maps the neighborhood was always north of the airport.  It looks like the airport was put on undeveloped swamp land.  The part of Eastwick that was taken was eventually used primarily for I-95.  Although before I-95 was built, some of the airport parking was encroaching on the neighborhood on the 70s.  But before that, the part of the neighborhood in question looks to have been wiped out in the 60's due to 'urban redevelopment'. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastwick,_Philadelphia

briantroutman

Quote from: PHLBOS on October 15, 2018, 03:21:29 PM
Another thing to keep in mind that the soil conditions in the airport area aren't exactly suitable for Center City-like development in terms of density.  One now-retired engineer at where I work at phrased it best, "If it weren't for the swampy-like soil conditions at the airport; there would've been skyscrapers there instead."

In college, I worked briefly at the front desk of a Courtyard, the owner of which also owned the large Renaissance hotel that's visible from I-95 near the airport. The general manager of that property came to our hotel for about a week to help us open (it was a brand new Courtyard), and we talked about the fact that the Renaissance is perpetually sinking–a few inches a year, if I recall correctly. And he said they routinely hire crews to inject concrete under the building and jack it back up, but it's an essentially endless cycle. It keeps sinking slowly into the soft soil.

PHLBOS

From what I've been told by one of the now-gone old-timers at where I work: one early proposal for I-95 in that area had it running along the southern edge of the airport... where Hog Island Rd. is today.  Ramp access to/from the terminal buildings would've been interesting had that alignment came to fruition.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Tonytone

Quote from: briantroutman on October 15, 2018, 04:16:18 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 15, 2018, 03:21:29 PM
Another thing to keep in mind that the soil conditions in the airport area aren't exactly suitable for Center City-like development in terms of density.  One now-retired engineer at where I work at phrased it best, "If it weren't for the swampy-like soil conditions at the airport; there would've been skyscrapers there instead."

In college, I worked briefly at the front desk of a Courtyard, the owner of which also owned the large Renaissance hotel that's visible from I-95 near the airport. The general manager of that property came to our hotel for about a week to help us open (it was a brand new Courtyard), and we talked about the fact that the Renaissance is perpetually sinking–a few inches a year, if I recall correctly. And he said they routinely hire crews to inject concrete under the building and jack it back up, but it's an essentially endless cycle. It keeps sinking slowly into the soft soil.
I was just about to comment on that. I read that Washington D.C is on a swamp and if the pumps that keep the water out the city fail. The city will flood.


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Alps

Quote from: PHLBOS on October 15, 2018, 04:57:13 PM
From what I've been told by one of the now-gone old-timers at where I work: one early proposal for I-95 in that area had it running along the southern edge of the airport... where Hog Island Rd. is today.  Ramp access to/from the terminal buildings would've been interesting had that alignment came to fruition.
I bet the ramps would have followed something similar to the current I-95 to get between that proposal and 291.
Quote from: briantroutman on October 15, 2018, 04:16:18 PM
In college, I worked briefly at the front desk of a Courtyard, the owner of which also owned the large Renaissance hotel that's visible from I-95 near the airport. The general manager of that property came to our hotel for about a week to help us open (it was a brand new Courtyard), and we talked about the fact that the Renaissance is perpetually sinking–a few inches a year, if I recall correctly. And he said they routinely hire crews to inject concrete under the building and jack it back up, but it's an essentially endless cycle. It keeps sinking slowly into the soft soil.
Easy, just construct another entrance on the 2nd floor. Eventually you remodel, move the lobby upstairs and conference rooms down to the new basement.

roadman65

#71
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 15, 2018, 03:21:29 PM
Another thing to keep in mind that the soil conditions in the airport area aren't exactly suitable for Center City-like development in terms of density.  One now-retired engineer at where I work at phrased it best, "If it weren't for the swampy-like soil conditions at the airport; there would've been skyscrapers there instead."

All they have to do is look at Mexico City.  Most of that city is built on a lake bed and some old buildings have sunk dramatically as the buildings are heavier than water with absolutely no buoyancy at all. 

If Mexico can put up with that so can Philly.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

froggie

Quote from: TonytoneI read that Washington D.C is on a swamp and if the pumps that keep the water out the city fail. The city will flood.

Virtually all of DC is above sea level.  Most of what was former swamp comprises most of the "Federal district" (where many Federal agencies are) along and south of the National Mall, most of Southwest DC (southwest of the US Capitol), and land along the Anacostia River.  Most of DC is actually quite hilly and would be very unlikely to flood in the manner you suggest.

Alps


Quote from: froggie on October 15, 2018, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: TonytoneI read that Washington D.C is on a swamp and if the pumps that keep the water out the city fail. The city will flood.


Virtually all of DC is above sea level.  Most of what was former swamp comprises most of the "Federal district" (where many Federal agencies are) along and south of the National Mall, most of Southwest DC (southwest of the US Capitol), and land along the Anacostia River.  Most of DC is actually quite hilly and would be very unlikely to flood in the manner you suggest.


So when they say "drain the swamp," they quite literally mean, "go back 200 years and build DC"?  :happy:

Tonytone

Looking on the Aerials map for 1958 Route 322 has been there for a very long time. I wonder why a bridge did not come sooner.
Promoting Cities since 1998!



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