The conundrum over where US 33 and 250 end in Richmond may soon be solved. I sent an email to Richmond Public Works a few weeks ago, and was forwarded a conversation among several people in that department. Apparently, end signage will be going up for US 33 and US 250 in the correct locations, and existing misleading VA 33 signage will be removed:
---------------
I will try to answer as many of his questions as possible. However starting with your question I think installing start and end plaques on the existing signs should be done by the city. Here are answers to the other questions:
- Route 33 - US Route 33 ends at the intersection of Broad and Harrison Streets and begins SR 33 eastward. I would generally install beginning and ending signs in both directions at that point. I would advise the city to use the proper shield for all signs east of Harrison Street.
- Route 250 - This route begins and ends at 18th and Broad. These start/end points are generally used for maintenance payments, but have little value to the public.
(email clip ends here)
---------------
The email also mentions that inconsistencies with directional banners on VA 147 will be fixed (VA 147 is an east-west route that is also signed north-south in random places in Richmond), and that an erroneous VA 197 shield east of US 1/301 will be removed, because this segment is not part of VA 197. The email also states these issues will be fixed in the next 90 days.
I think this might also bring an end to any debate over where US 33 and US 250 end, as the city consulted VDOT records for this information.
US 33 ends at the intersection of US 250 (Broad Street) and Harrison Street (VA 33). This sort of makes the US 33-250 multiplex in Richmond useless, but not quite.
US 250 ends at 18th and Broad. 18th Street is US 360.
Originally posted in general Virginia thread. US 33/VA 33 End Point and US 250 in VA topics also merged as they are really just one combined oddity.
-Mark
Its about time someone debunked their ends! I remember driving around Richmond in 1999 looking for those when my check oil light came on! I had to forego looking for them and continued on my way, putting oil in the car at Ashland, and making it to my destination without ever figuring the ends out.
When signs go up, I'll take photos of them so I can send them to both you and Froggie. It actually took three tries for me to get a response from DPW; I guess former Mayor Wilder wasn't interested at the time, and now that Richmond has a new mayor, they're more interested in getting this stuff fixed. :sombrero:
Well I'm fine with it ending at US 1/US 301 as long as there's a "to VA 33" sign going east on US 33/US 250(I meant pointing north along with US 1/US 301 if I stated that wrong). BTW The Hampton Roads Notes on the VA Highways Project need a desperate update(especially US 58 exit numbers and the freeway system deficiencies)
Quote from: froggie on March 25, 2009, 03:48:33 PM
Simpler yet would be having US 33 end at either US 250 or at US 1/301, instead of an arbirtrary intersection (which is both the current case and 74/171's suggestion)...
I've always preferred the idea of just having US 33 end at US 250, even though having a 2di US highway end at a 3di US highway might seem a bit awkward. The US 33/250 duplex is pretty pointless as it is.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 25, 2009, 03:56:22 PM
Well I'm fine with it ending at US 1/US 301 as long as there's a "to VA 33" sign going east on US 33/US 250(I meant pointing north along with US 1/US 301 if I stated that wrong).
There is an erroneous "TO US 33" sign at the intersection of Broad and Belvidere (US 1/301) pointing toward Leigh Street, which is VA 33.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vahighways.com%2Ferrors%2FTOus33error.jpg&hash=5bce3d9726d457943d29922ba6899638800b4e05)
I've never noticed that even though I've been through that intersection at least five times since it was revamped(even though a few have been during the Richmond Parade and I'm not supposed to be looking especially if I'm in marching in the band) :wow:
No US 33 end shields in Richmond or the replacement of error US 33 shields as of May 2, 2009 even though there is now a US 250 shield between Harrison St and US 1/US 301 going east (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FUS250EASTSHIELDAFTERENDOFUS33.jpg&hash=df89a7dfe83391e208927fa8bc70d9681894a090) Old US 33/US 250 shields looking from N Monroe St(Note that this is Richmond's fault not VDOT's) (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FNMONROESTATUS250.jpg&hash=0a8d707f214336fa91781c82099c80e5a892a8b6)
That US 250 shield has been there since at least 2002 (it was there before RAMZ Hall got built, which was in 2004, and it was there when I originally started at VCU in 2002). I think there's a 2001 decal on the back of it, but I don't remember. US 33/250 were signed a lot better in 2002-2004 until Richmond decided to replace all the traffic signals on Broad between Laurel and Lombardy; this removed a few old uni-signs.
The other sign is a remnant from when US 33 was routed on Broad east of US 1/301 nearly 30 years ago. There's also a very old US 250 reassurance marker a couple blocks east of here.
Incidentally, there's an erroneous US 250 shield on Marshall Street, close to where this sign is. It doesn't say "to" and isn't a trailblazer; US 250 has never been on that part (or any part) of Marshall.
I was in Richmond again yesterday, there is also a new erroneous US 33 shield on westbound Leigh Street at N. Adams Street/Chamberlayne Pkwy. It's not a trailblazer, it just says "US 33 West". Yet, on the opposite side of the same street is a "VA 33 East" shield.
Can anyone state with definitive certainty where the end of US 250 in Richmond is located?
And can anyone give advice on the best way to approach that endpoint from the north? (Coming from DC on I-95?)
Quote from: hbelkins on May 13, 2012, 04:06:26 PM
Can anyone state with definitive certainty where the end of US 250 in Richmond is located?
And can anyone give advice on the best way to approach that endpoint from the north? (Coming from DC on I-95?)
"The U.S. Highway passes to the north of Richmond's historic Main Street Station, then reaches its eastern terminus at US 360, which heads south along 17th Street and north on 18th Street. Broad Street continues east as an unnumbered city street through the city's Church Hill neighborhood."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Route_250_in_Virginia
http://www.vahighways.com/route-log/us250.htm
VDOT apparently cut it back in 2003 to Broad at 18th (US 360), from Broad at 23rd (old US 60). Doesn't look like there are any useful signs. If you still want to see it, your best bet is probably exit 74B.
Aside: where the hell are the attachments referenced in http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/ctb-minutes-09172003.pdf ?
Per emails with VDOT and the City of Richmond, US 250 definitively ends at US 360. The terminus is unposted, though, and signage from I-95 is actually partially erroneous (US 33 isn't on this part of Broad).
Concur with NE2...exit at 74B, then loop around to 18th and Broad.
The Clinched Highway Mapping project has the east end of 360 at 21st and Broad. I was there yesterday, no "end" signage at that intersection either. Anyway, just to be sure you might want to go the extra two or three blocks, and turn around at 21st.
QuoteThe Clinched Highway Mapping project has the east end of 360 at 21st and Broad.
That's because I haven't fixed it yet. And given that I'm a bit overextended at the moment, I've considered giving Virginia over to you or Mike Roberson.
Hey, speaking of US/VA route numbers. What exactly happens to US 33/VA 33? Do they terminate at the same point? I've been US 33 from Harrisonburg to I-295 and VA 33 from I-64 to Stingray Point, and was curious.
Quote from: OracleUsr on February 12, 2013, 09:22:00 PM
Hey, speaking of US/VA route numbers. What exactly happens to US 33/VA 33? Do they terminate at the same point? I've been US 33 from Harrisonburg to I-295 and VA 33 from I-64 to Stingray Point, and was curious.
Yes. US 33 in downtown Richmond turns north off of Broad Street on Hancock Street and ends at Leigh Street. VA 33 starts there and uses Leigh Street east to the Mechanicsville Turnpike and Fairmount Avenue.
why the designation change? why not call it US-33 the whole way?
Quote from: dfilpus on February 13, 2013, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: OracleUsr on February 12, 2013, 09:22:00 PM
Hey, speaking of US/VA route numbers. What exactly happens to US 33/VA 33? Do they terminate at the same point? I've been US 33 from Harrisonburg to I-295 and VA 33 from I-64 to Stingray Point, and was curious.
Yes. US 33 in downtown Richmond turns north off of Broad Street on Hancock Street and ends at Leigh Street. VA 33 starts there and uses Leigh Street east to the Mechanicsville Turnpike and Fairmount Avenue.
I thought US 33 and US 250 continued together once they joined, to both terminate at US 360.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 13, 2013, 11:24:20 AM
Quote from: dfilpus on February 13, 2013, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: OracleUsr on February 12, 2013, 09:22:00 PM
Hey, speaking of US/VA route numbers. What exactly happens to US 33/VA 33? Do they terminate at the same point? I've been US 33 from Harrisonburg to I-295 and VA 33 from I-64 to Stingray Point, and was curious.
Yes. US 33 in downtown Richmond turns north off of Broad Street on Hancock Street and ends at Leigh Street. VA 33 starts there and uses Leigh Street east to the Mechanicsville Turnpike and Fairmount Avenue.
I thought US 33 and US 250 continued together once they joined, to both terminate at US 360.
Looking at the VADOT traffic counts database, there is an anomaly in the US 33 entries. It appears that the data base has the segment of VA 33 along Hancock Street from Broad Street to Leigh Street entered as US 33. It also has US 33 continuing along Broad Street to US 360. It also has a directional pairing of VA 33 along Leigh Street and Harrison Avenue to Broad Street. This would pair with the Hancock segment labelled US 33.
It looks like US 33 and VA 33 do meet at the Broad Street and the Harrison/Hancock intersections. US 33 runs east/west on Broad Street, while VA 33 runs north on the Harrison/Hancock street pairing.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 13, 2013, 11:24:20 AM
I thought US 33 and US 250 continued together once they joined, to both terminate at US 360.
This was true from 1974-81.
There was a short period (Sept-Dec 1981) where technically US 33 did not turn into VA 33. VA 33 was rerouted first, onto the new MLK Jr Bridge to run back into US 33 at Harrison/Hancock. Thus US 33 continued past VA 33 for a time. In Dec 1981, US 33 was explicitly removed from Broad St between Hancock/Harrison and 17th. Therefore, US 33 ends today at Broad and Hancock/Harrison.
The confusion stems from the fact that Richmond originally posted Hancock/Harrison and Leigh as US 33 over to the MLK Jr Bridge instead of VA 33. There are more VA 33 signs now, especially around US 1-301.
Traffic Logs also contribute to the confusion.
Mapmikey
I asked because when I was coming home from Deltaville with my parents (they had a sailboat on the Chesapeake) I'd see signs for Harrisonburg on VA 33 and was always curious since there are no signs for VA 33 on I-95, just US 33.
As long as US 33 doesn't veer off Broad Street, then I'm happy. I still have both US 33 and US 250 clinched in Virginia and don't have to worry about going back sometime and driving one or two city blocks worth of streets to get US 33. :D
2011 shapefiles verify what Mike said about the route log...that the "changeover" happens at Broad and Harrison.
An email conversation I had with VDOT and the City of Richmond in 2008 also indicated that US 33 ends and VA 33 begins at Broad/Harrison and Broad/Hancock. US 33 doesn't get to Broad/Belvidere or any further than that.
While in Richmond photographing VDOT County Atlases at the Virginia State Library with Froggie last Saturday, I had an opportunity to field check this.
From 9th St westward on Leigh I saw zero VA 33 shields and plenty of US 33 shields, both new and original 1981 postings. Froggie noted no VA 33 shields WB from 25th to the Leigh St Viaduct. So the posting situation has actually gotten worse.
As a reminder, it is no longer possible to turn left from US 33 EB Broad St onto VA 33 EB Hancock because a) there is now a median with no opening and b) Hancock is now one-way SB from Marshall to Broad. You can still drive NB on Hancock to Leigh from Marshall and there are still advance US 33 EB trailblazers on Hancock approaching Leigh to turn there.
So the next street along Broad EB is Goshen St which is one way NB and also cobblestones. Oddly, there is a US 33 EAST trailblazer shield on Clay St WB saying to turn right (NB) for US 33 EAST. There are then US 33 EAST trailblazers on Goshen at Leigh to turn right. I don't know who the intended audience is for the 33 East shield at Clay/Goshen as there are no shields anywhere directing you to Clay St. It can't be from Gilmer St which is the next street along Broad St EB because that is one-way SB at Broad. The next street is US 1-301 where there is now a TO US 33 EAST shield directing Broad St traffic onto NB US 1-301.
I believe the correct answer is that since it is illegal to turn left from US 1-301 SB onto VA 33 EB, you are supposed to turn right at Clay St instead and do a neighborhood clover to reach EB Leigh. Doing this would run you into the Clay/Goshen shield. Regrettably, there is no 33 shield of any sort at US 1-301 and Clay.
So the current path of VA 33 EB beginning from US 33 is no longer continuous.
Mapmikey
According to an email conversation I had last week via a good friend of mine who works for the city, the signage issues in the city may soon be rectified, including those dealing with the US 33/VA 33 changeover. (They have started by signing all entrances to VA 195, although this came at the expense of some original I-195 and VA 195 signage...)
The US 33 shield on Clay should be a VA 33 shield, and all US 33 EAST signs on Leigh should be VA 33 signs. Same with the US 33 sign at Broad and Belvidere.
The situation with the endpoints wouldn't be as much of a problem if the US 33/VA 33 changeover occurred just at Harrison, which is a two-way street and goes right to Leigh.
Of course, the city did replace a US 33/250 unisign at Broad and Boulevard (VA 161) that blew away during Irene with a VA 33/US 250 one...ugh.
As of August 2014, Google illustrates that these signs are still there: http://goo.gl/maps/txJ2g (http://goo.gl/maps/txJ2g)
In any event, does anyone know why this route assignment anomaly is even on Hancock Street? FOR EXAMPLE, did US 33 (maybe via Harrison Street) or its predecessor maybe at one time connect directly with what looks like Sledd Street and curve up into what is US1/301 today? Did the construction of I-64 bisect this connection?
It's possible that there was no left turn from Broad to Harrison at one time. Note that there was no route on Leigh until 1981, when SR 33 was rerouted onto the new viaduct. Previously US/SR 33 had used Broad to 25th.
It was possible to turn left at Hancock from EB Broad when VA 33 was moved to Harrison/Hancock.
GMSV shows that the median was filled in at some point...
https://goo.gl/maps/AE1Ua
Note that the segment of Chamberlayne where Sledd St meets it was not part of US 1 (or any route) from 1934-59. Additionally, per topos, Sledd St never crossed the RR tracks where it curves southwest.
The current US 33/VA 33 setup is non-sensical as it stands. Since Harrison is two-way throughout they should just use a neighborhood clover with Ryland to Grace to Harrison for VA 33's EB movement.
Mapmikey
As it is, traffic heading east on 33 will get to Belvidere and see the sign pointing to east 33 left (but probably too late to get over unless they know ahead of time, and nothing points right on Leigh). So that's probably a reasonable de facto routing.
While trudging around the internet looking for old shield photos I came across the first photo below (likely from VDOT but found on http://vintagerva.blogspot.com/) showing Hurricane Agnes flooding from 1972. So here we have US 33-60 posted on Broad St WB. The stoplight that is smacking you in the face is 17th St (US 360).
This is definitive evidence that the US 33/VA 33 transition was at US 360 before US 60 was removed from Broad St in 1974, which I had previously believed was the date US 33 moved.
The second photo is from the Nov 1949 Virginia Hwys Bulletin, showing WB Broad St at 12th which US 360 used until 1956. This means VA 33 was west of US 360.
My working theory now is that US 33 ended at wherever US 60 WEST left Broad until 1956 when it was then extended to US 360 at 17th. I don't know why US 250 never moved until US 60 was removed from Broad west of 21st in 1974. I have a 1969 Henrico County map (third pic below) that clearly shows a US 33-60-250 routing on Broad east to 9th, then only US 33-60 further east, something I had not previously noticed.
An astute observer might notice in the mapscan that primary route distance is shown on Broad St to Governor St (from both directions). Did US 250 end there? This would've been essentially ending at the State Capitol. Note the US 33-60 shield was placed east of Governor St when there was room to have placed it east of 9th.
CTB references are unhelpful in this. They nearly always describe primary extensions in independent cities in ways that ignore all overlays.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vahighways.com%2Fmapscans%2F33-60cutout1972.jpg&hash=e73b4ccc0564de454de123f5ebbe49dc23bf487c)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vahighways.com%2Fmapscans%2Fold60-360split.jpg&hash=e7f602a748b7741e79090c0fb980fd58168868d7)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vahighways.com%2Fmapscans%2F33_1969.jpg&hash=e8e3468c88d78a7991513ad8afc1017223934fb2)
Mapmikey
Your #1 fallacy is assuming that one photograph is enough proof to change prior hypotheses. It's not impossible that there were sign errors in the 1940s and 1950s.
It is the first photo + the mapscan that provide evidence that my original 1974 hypothesis needs revision.
The middle photo becomes something closer to what you describe as not enough proof. There is proof that US 33-250 was posted east of US 1-301 back in the day, so it is narrowed down pretty far to where the endpoints would be.
http://archives.blogs.timesdispatch.com/2014/03/10/broad-lombardy-1952/
Searching around today I found a photo that suggests that VA 5 may have been posted to end where VA 147 does, but i am not ready to claim that without further evidence:
This is Franklin St at 18th
http://archives.blogs.timesdispatch.com/files/2013/12/1228_POD_FranklinSt-1024x736.jpg
Mapmikey
I have obtained more evidence on where the transition points have been over time.
Several photos from the 1940s-70s are presented...
It appears the posted transition point and the official transition point have not matched back to at least the late 1960s. Contrary to earlier evidence, the transition point WAS posted at Broad and 25th in the 1970s. Here is one of several photos that support this...1975 scene of US 60 west approaching US 33, VA 33, VA 5
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vahighways.com%2Fmapscans%2F2500_E_Broad_St-1975.jpg&hash=26d8f9f3ca7fcc40e288b2c911a178bda4393d82)
photo courtesy of Virginia Commonwealth University Libraries
Also, there are links to several Richmond Times-Dispatch photos (only links were permitted on the VHP website unless I wanted to pay $50 per year per photo) from the early 1950s that circumstantially suggest the posted transition point was Broad at Belvidere
They are presented here - http://www.vahighways.com/route-log/us33va33.htm
Mapmikey
Thanks for all the detail provided on your pages. One other possible source of info is the USGS topos. I realize those were not always accurate in terms of route designations, but I'm curious how these line up with your findings:
*The 1939 1:31,680 shows US 33 coming in on Staples Mill, but ending at Broad (jct. US 250). (US 250 in turn is shown continuing east on Broad, ending at Lombardy (jct. US 1, which continued east on Broad).
*The 1956 1:24k shows US 33 overlapped with US 250 on Broad as far as Boulevard (VA 161), but east from there Broad is labeled only as US 250 (possibly ending at jct. US 1-301 or US 60).
*The 1964 and '68 1:24ks show US 33-250 together east of Boulevard, possibly ending at Belvidere (US 1-301).
Not very well...
State Officials as early as 1938 explicitly put US 33 with US 250 into the city...
This 1951 photo shows US 250 ending at US 60 (1st St) with all 33 shields as VA 33:
http://www.richmond.com/article_3e3fe697-d0a6-51ce-ba65-3a6b4f5fbb8e.html
This 1952 photo shows US 33 posted to continue east of Lombardy:
http://www.richmond.com/article_1d112679-2598-5082-84f1-29d51f9a76b8.html
The 1960s is where I have the least amount of evidence about this stuff. This 1960 photo implies US 33 is posted east to 11th. There is no rational reason to believe US 33 or US 250 were truncated back to Belvidere at any point given the 1951 and 1960 photos:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vahighways.com%2Fmapscans%2Frice-allroutes.jpg&hash=c5314cb508ab9b3fe2cb49105e09476a16417406)
There is also this postcard (not on my new pages) that shows US 33 WEST posted with no other routes on Broad just past 8th (date unknown):
https://www.cardcow.com/53575/richmond-virginia/
You are welcome to use on usends.com any photo or mapscan I actually show on those pages with the same attribution I used. If I only provided a link, it is because I was explicitly denied permission to use the photo itself for free. But anyone can link to their photos per their policy.
Mapmikey
The fact that US 33 and US 250 both run concurrently from the point where they join to a common endpoint really doesn't make a lot of sense to me, especially if US 33 and VA 33 are like US 79 and KY 79 and aren't a continuous route. Either one or other of the US routes should end and only one continue. Of course, US 250 really could be truncated back to Staunton and the road that parallels I-64 could be a state route.
US 33 and US 250 do not end at the same location. US 250 continues to US 360 although it is not posted east of I-95 and barely posted east of US 1-301.
Photos seem to suggest they haven't ended at the same location back to at least 1951.
US 33 and VA 33 have been continuous since 1938 except for 3 months in late 1981.
Not that I am defending anything they've done regarding this issue. Just extend US 33 to US 17 already...
Mapmikey
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 18, 2015, 08:12:15 PM
US 33 and US 250 do not end at the same location. US 250 continues to US 360 although it is not posted east of I-95 and barely posted east of US 1-301.
Photos seem to suggest they haven't ended at the same location back to at least 1951.
US 33 and VA 33 have been continuous since 1938 except for 3 months in late 1981.
Not that I am defending anything they've done regarding this issue. Just extend US 33 to US 17 already...
I just wish that VDOT and Richmond would agree on (and correctly sign) U.S. 33/Va. 33 in Richmond, as well as U.S. 250 (always amuses me that poorly-signed U.S. 250 runs down East Broad Street, where the Central Office of VDOT is located).
As for extending U.S. 33 east of Richmond to U.S. 17 at Glenns in Gloucester County, why not? Va. 33 could pick up at Saluda in Middlesex County. Only issue is that both parts of Va. 33 are named in honor of U.S. Marine Corps General "Chesty" Puller, but I suppose that just remains that way even if part of the road becomes U.S. 33.
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 18, 2015, 08:12:15 PM
US 33 and US 250 do not end at the same location. US 250 continues to US 360 although it is not posted east of I-95 and barely posted east of US 1-301.
When traveling to Richmond a few years ago, I took US 33 all the way to where it intersects US 250, and can't remember which way I turned after that.
On a later trip, I was traveling west on US 360 and turned right onto US 250 and followed it all the way out to US 522.
Please tell me I ended up driving all of US 33 in Virginia by virtue of those two trips. The endpoint/transition point of US 33/VA 33 is as confusing to me as it is to everyone else.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 19, 2015, 05:08:22 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 18, 2015, 08:12:15 PM
US 33 and US 250 do not end at the same location. US 250 continues to US 360 although it is not posted east of I-95 and barely posted east of US 1-301.
When traveling to Richmond a few years ago, I took US 33 all the way to where it intersects US 250, and can't remember which way I turned after that.
On a later trip, I was traveling west on US 360 and turned right onto US 250 and followed it all the way out to US 522.
Please tell me I ended up driving all of US 33 in Virginia by virtue of those two trips. The endpoint/transition point of US 33/VA 33 is as confusing to me as it is to everyone else.
The way I have understood it is that US 33 ends on Broad duplexed with US 250 (at Harrison St according to the VHP). In that case, you have clinched all of US 33 in VA.
I should mention that I have marched on Broad from the Science Museum to 7th St back in my high school marching band days in the Richmond Parade. I am probably the only one on the entire forum to march through the end point of a US Route FWIW.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 19, 2015, 05:27:13 PM
The way I have understood it is that US 33 ends on Broad duplexed with US 250 (at Harrison St according to the VHP). In that case, you have clinched all of US 33 in VA.
I should mention that I have marched on Broad from the Science Museum to 7th St back in my high school marching band days in the Richmond Parade. I am probably the only one on the entire forum to march through the end point of a US Route FWIW.
This is correct. If you have driven Broad St west of Harrison St (a couple blocks west of US 1-301) to Staples Mill Rd you have driven all of US 33's current routing in Richmond.
Incidentally, when I was in scouts a million years ago I marched in a parade through the intersection that has US 176's eastern end point in Goose Creek, SC. Anyone who did the Cooper River Bridge run/walk prior to 1992 (I did this once in the late 1980s), passed through the south end of US 701 and the south end of US 52.
Mapmikey
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 19, 2015, 05:27:13 PMI am probably the only one on the entire forum to march through the end point of a US Route FWIW.
I marched by the historic endpoint of US 227 in Richmond, Ky. as a high school student and band member.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on May 30, 2009, 02:44:32 AM
The end shields I emailed Richmond about a while ago still have not been posted, nor has the VA 147 direction conundrum been corrected. I'm likely going to be emailing them again in a couple weeks, although the 90 days have been up for some time now.
I believe that these end shields were never posted. :-D
Quote from: 74/171FAN on November 19, 2016, 02:51:12 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on May 30, 2009, 02:44:32 AM
The end shields I emailed Richmond about a while ago still have not been posted, nor has the VA 147 direction conundrum been corrected. I'm likely going to be emailing them again in a couple weeks, although the 90 days have been up for some time now.
I believe that these end shields were never posted. :-D
Yeah... :rolleyes:
I might raise the issue again when the new mayor takes office.
The easy solution would be just make VA 33 part of US 33.
Quote from: dvferyance on November 20, 2016, 08:43:29 PM
The easy solution would be just make VA 33 part of US 33.
That would be the easy solution, but VDOT never does things the easy way...
US 33 is one of those highways that probably should be decommissioned. After all, how much through, Richmond-to-Elkhart traffic is there? And it's improperly numbered, as it runs more east-west than north-south and is signed E-W in every state through which it passes besides Indiana.
Says the guy who just finished off US 33 by driving it in its entirety from Elkhart to Ripley.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on November 21, 2016, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: dvferyance on November 20, 2016, 08:43:29 PM
The easy solution would be just make VA 33 part of US 33.
That would be the easy solution, but VDOT never does things the easy way...
and even that's an understatement lol just like the whole US/VA 360 thing
Digging this thread up with a photo from the Richmond Times-Dispatch from January 1952. This is West Broad and Lombardy, but doesn't say which direction. Note the US 33 shield included.
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/richmond.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/4/b6/4b6b38cc-fc29-55da-99c9-ec0edf648e44/624352fa9541f.image.jpg?resize=990%2C715)
Quote from: Takumi on April 29, 2023, 11:50:26 AM
Digging this thread up with a photo from the Richmond Times-Dispatch from January 1952. This is West Broad and Lombardy, but doesn't say which direction. Note the US 33 shield included.
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/richmond.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/4/b6/4b6b38cc-fc29-55da-99c9-ec0edf648e44/624352fa9541f.image.jpg?resize=990%2C715)
Looks like eastbound.
I think VA 33 should have been US 33 from the get-go. I know VA 33 is an east-west route, but so is US 33 (more or less, with it being diagonal in a northwest-southeast trajectory). True, there is a VA 211 off the end of US 211, and a VA 360 along US 360's old alignment. VA 311 doesn't count since it was designated after US 311 became part of US 220.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 29, 2023, 12:06:09 PM
I think VA 33 should have been US 33 from the get-go. I know VA 33 is an east-west route, but so is US 33 (more or less, with it being diagonal in a northwest-southeast trajectory). True, there is a VA 211 off the end of US 211, and a VA 360 along US 360's old alignment. VA 311 doesn't count since it was designated after US 311 became part of US 220.
VA 311 absolutely existed while US 311 ended in Roanoke. Otherwise VA 311 would've been numbered something else.
Virginia has also had as extensions of US routes:
VA 13
VA 17
VA 121
VA 158
VA 258
VA 301
VA 501
VA 522
Plus there was a US/VA 29 setup similar to the current 360 setup, between Culpeper and Warrenton.
I noticed that on Broad Street EB at US 1/301 there is a TO EAST US 33 shield in the median directing traffic to north US 1/301. However no follow up at Leigh Street, but a EAST US 33 shield on the EB Leigh Street signal pole on the SE corner with Belvedere.
Plus on Staples Mill Road at Broad Street there is no EB US 33 shield informing traffic to turn left onto EB US 250 there. With that intersection on the City Line, you would think VDOT would sign that correctly.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 07, 2023, 09:25:15 AM
I noticed that on Broad Street EB at US 1/301 there is a TO EAST US 33 shield in the median directing traffic to north US 1/301. However no follow up at Leigh Street, but a EAST US 33 shield on the EB Leigh Street signal pole on the SE corner with Belvedere.
Plus on Staples Mill Road at Broad Street there is no EB US 33 shield informing traffic to turn left onto EB US 250 there. With that intersection on the City Line, you would think VDOT would sign that correctly.
Both shields you cite in the Broad/Leigh situation are in error as it is VA 33 by then. There was a shield on 1-301 N at Leigh that was removed 2007-11: https://goo.gl/maps/FEdETeSYGFgDRzT38
33 EB at 250 apparently hasn't had a 33 shield in the GMSV. I'm not certain VDOT would be involved since it is Henrico Co.
Some new signs are being put together at the I-95/VA 150/VA 895 interchange as part of some bridge work VDOT is doing in the city, and notably there are new Broad St signs that finally, finally omit US 33 shields from them (Broad St is correctly labeled as just US 250).
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 07, 2023, 02:06:08 PM
Some new signs are being put together at the I-95/VA 150/VA 895 interchange as part of some bridge work VDOT is doing in the city, and notably there are new Broad St signs that finally, finally omit US 33 shields from them (Broad St is correctly labeled as just US 250).
Unfortunately the new Washington/Wythe signs down in Petersburg are still incorrect, still listing only US 301 instead of, you know, routes that are actually on those streets.
So why is VA 33 separate from US 33 in the first place?
Quote from: Evan_Th on June 09, 2023, 12:48:43 AM
So why is VA 33 separate from US 33 in the first place?
Virginia had a number of these setups where the US route replaced the state route of the same number. As best I can tell Virginia never moved toward doing this with US/VA 33. But they did this with US 13, US 17, US 301, US 258, US 340 and US 522
There were others that never did get extended like US 211 and US 501.
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 09, 2023, 08:13:35 AM
Quote from: Evan_Th on June 09, 2023, 12:48:43 AM
So why is VA 33 separate from US 33 in the first place?
Virginia had a number of these setups where the US route replaced the state route of the same number. As best I can tell Virginia never moved toward doing this with US/VA 33. But they did this with US 13, US 17, US 301, US 258, and US 522
There were others that never did get extended like US 211 and US 501.
Looking at your VA 501 entry, I guess VA was looking to get US 501 extended into WV along current WV 39 to at least Marlinton or Summersville. I am unsure I could have justified a complete replacement of WV 39 out to US 60 southeast of Charleston at Gauley Bridge.
Quote from: 74/171FAN on June 09, 2023, 08:22:55 AM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 09, 2023, 08:13:35 AM
Quote from: Evan_Th on June 09, 2023, 12:48:43 AM
So why is VA 33 separate from US 33 in the first place?
Virginia had a number of these setups where the US route replaced the state route of the same number. As best I can tell Virginia never moved toward doing this with US/VA 33. But they did this with US 13, US 17, US 301, US 258, and US 522
There were others that never did get extended like US 211 and US 501.
Looking at your VA 501 entry, I guess VA was looking to get US 501 extended into WV along current WV 39 to at least Marlinton or Summersville. I am unsure I could have justified a complete replacement of WV 39 out to US 60 southeast of Charleston at Gauley Bridge.
I never saw anything to indicate efforts to extend US 501 past Lexington.
In fact the draft 1933 renumbering (http://www.vahighways.com/route-log/VDOT%20logs/1933%20preliminary%20route%20log.pdf) had US 501 downgraded to VA 9. Though that didn't happen, VA 501 was renumbered as VA 39 in 1940. All of which suggests no real plan to extend US 501 was on anyone's mind.
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?
Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic
Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 11, 2023, 12:40:24 PM
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic
Don't know if it is official, but it looks like that block of South Cameron Street is only northbound US-17. If you turn around, US-17 southbound is posted as beginning in the next block south of here.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 11, 2023, 07:53:04 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 11, 2023, 12:40:24 PM
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic
Don't know if it is official, but it looks like that block of South Cameron Street is only northbound US-17. If you turn around, US-17 southbound is posted as beginning in the next block south of here.
US 11 and US 522 continue straight through here. (SB (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1810381,-78.1652171,3a,75y,202.14h,88.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx9ARAA_Esg4X8YzzglF3UQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu), NB (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1819751,-78.1648642,3a,75y,27.04h,85.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIN6XR0uDOkEeh54jd9h-8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu))
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 11, 2023, 07:53:04 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 11, 2023, 12:40:24 PM
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic
Don't know if it is official, but it looks like that block of South Cameron Street is only northbound US-17. If you turn around, US-17 southbound is posted as beginning in the next block south of here.
This was the stated reason in the AASHO application in Aug 1964:
This is a request to extend U. S. Route 17 from its present termiÂnus in Fredericksburg northwesterly to Winchester, which for many years has carried a continuous state route designation. The extenÂsion of U, S. Route 17 will provide a section of the state with a U. S. designated route that has one of its termini in the State of Florida. The subject route that is presently designated U, S. in the State of Virginia and the section of the requested extension between Fredericksburg and Warrenton is a part of our Arterial System of Highways which carries a high construction priority. The requestÂed extension of U. S. Route 17 carries a high volume of traffic of which over 25% is out of state and approximately 1% is heavy tractor-trailer and buses. The route provides a more direct north-south routing, and complements an integrated system with existing U. S. Numbered Highways.
-------------------------------------------
The one block difference just reflects there wasn't a reasonable location to place the 4-shield assembly SB leaving Cork St.
The bigger question is whether its signed extension to Cork St (since 2009) is official or not, since there is no AASHO request and also no CTB documentation of it. May just be an Independent City doing what it likes as several others have done.
The (approved Dec 1964) extension was shown as 17.1 miles from Paris to its northern terminus. It is 18.2 miles to Cork St, meaning the extension was originally to just US 11 (Millwood at Cameron) as was posted up through at least 2009.
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 11, 2023, 08:32:44 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on June 11, 2023, 07:53:04 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on June 11, 2023, 10:27:11 AM
On a related note, where does US-17 end in Winchester, and if US-17 is just co-signed with US-50 from Paris west to Winchester where it terminates, why have it start/end as a co-route vs. having it begin/end at Paris?
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on June 11, 2023, 12:40:24 PM
It ends here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dUtTByMoivmqhUC88?g_st=ic
Don't know if it is official, but it looks like that block of South Cameron Street is only northbound US-17. If you turn around, US-17 southbound is posted as beginning in the next block south of here.
This was the stated reason in the AASHO application in Aug 1964:
This is a request to extend U. S. Route 17 from its present termiÂnus in Fredericksburg northwesterly to Winchester, which for many years has carried a continuous state route designation. The extenÂsion of U, S. Route 17 will provide a section of the state with a U. S. designated route that has one of its termini in the State of Florida. The subject route that is presently designated U, S. in the State of Virginia and the section of the requested extension between Fredericksburg and Warrenton is a part of our Arterial System of Highways which carries a high construction priority. The requestÂed extension of U. S. Route 17 carries a high volume of traffic of which over 25% is out of state and approximately 1% is heavy tractor-trailer and buses. The route provides a more direct north-south routing, and complements an integrated system with existing U. S. Numbered Highways.
-------------------------------------------
The one block difference just reflects there wasn't a reasonable location to place the 4-shield assembly SB leaving Cork St.
The bigger question is whether its signed extension to Cork St (since 2009) is official or not, since there is no AASHO request and also no CTB documentation of it. May just be an Independent City doing what it likes as several others have done.
The (approved Dec 1964) extension was shown as 17.1 miles from Paris to its northern terminus. It is 18.2 miles to Cork St, meaning the extension was originally to just US 11 (Millwood at Cameron) as was posted up through at least 2009.
So it makes sense to have 17 extend from 95 to 50, but 50 is a US route, why extend it to Winchester on the same route co-signed? Just have it end in Paris.
For decades the point of the US routes was to connect cities (and their centers, at that). Many useless overlays were created this way, despite AASHO rejecting numerous requests like that.
In more modern times states have cleaned these up including Virginia- US 21-52 and US 29-211
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.
And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 16, 2023, 11:47:15 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.
And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.
I believe it is a political thing. Having stated that, there is a 20 mph railroad crossing about a mile or so north of VA 55 along that section.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 16, 2023, 11:47:15 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.
And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.
The residents and politicians of Fauquier County don't want anything outside of Warrenton that impedes their idyllic concept of rural living. That includes big smelly trucks and "through traffic". I don't recall if it was lobbying VDOT or actual legislation they were able to push through the General Assembly, but they were successful in banning through trucks on 17 (requiring them to take 66 to 81) and forcing a 45mph speed limit even though the road is easily done at 55.
Yes, there's the nasty at-grade rail crossing at Delaplane, but there's 6 miles of well-designed highway north of that which would easily otherwise be 55mph.
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 16, 2023, 11:47:15 PM
And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.
Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2023, 11:30:27 AM
The residents and politicians of Fauquier County don't want anything outside of Warrenton that impedes their idyllic concept of rural living. That includes big smelly trucks and "through traffic". I don't recall if it was lobbying VDOT or actual legislation they were able to push through the General Assembly, but they were successful in banning through trucks on 17 (requiring them to take 66 to 81) and forcing a 45mph speed limit even though the road is easily done at 55.
Yes, there's the nasty at-grade rail crossing at Delaplane, but there's 6 miles of well-designed highway north of that which would easily otherwise be 55mph.
If I recall correctly, the US-17 crossing at Delaplane was the location of a deadly accident where a tractor-trailer lost its brakes downhill and crashed into the side of a train. There were also similar safety issues with numerous truck traffic coming off of the Blue Ridge trying to slow down and make the right turn onto US-17 southbound at Sky Meadows. My understanding is that after the rollout of the GPS network in the mid-1990s, too many inexperienced truckers were attempting to use US-17 as a shortcut. [Don't remember the exact dates, but the final GPS satellite was commissioned in January 1994, and truckers quickly adopted the technology about the same time].
Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2023, 11:30:27 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 16, 2023, 11:47:15 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 15, 2023, 09:04:32 PM
That said, US 17 should be truncated to Marshal, since trucks are prohibited between I-66 and US 50, and the speed limit on that segment has been permanently reduced to 45.
And I don't understand why. When I drove that route, I didn't see any problems at all with the road. It's a lot better than a lot of roads that are very busy with trucks, with a 55 mph speed limit.
The residents and politicians of Fauquier County don't want anything outside of Warrenton that impedes their idyllic concept of rural living. That includes big smelly trucks and "through traffic". I don't recall if it was lobbying VDOT or actual legislation they were able to push through the General Assembly, but they were successful in banning through trucks on 17 (requiring them to take 66 to 81) and forcing a 45mph speed limit even though the road is easily done at 55.
Yes, there's the nasty at-grade rail crossing at Delaplane, but there's 6 miles of well-designed highway north of that which would easily otherwise be 55mph.
Rich people in Virginia Hunt Country that don't want commoners driving through their neighborhood.
That area is super wealthy.
Here is a WP article from 2000 with discussion of this issue. May be behind a paywall (let me know and i will copy excerpts):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/2000/09/17/vdot-takes-steps-to-reduce-truck-traffic-on-rte-17/998c7e34-8ab9-4b12-8ddd-9bc09c94aca4/
It also implies the truck ban did not come at the same time as the speed limit drop. I don't remember if it did or not.