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Regional Boards => Canada => Topic started by: ghYHZ on August 21, 2021, 10:23:53 AM

Title: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: ghYHZ on August 21, 2021, 10:23:53 AM

The existing Rotary on the Trans Canada Highway at Port Hastings, Nova Scotia will be reconstructed as a new Roundabout.

https://novascotia.ca/tran/highways/port-hastings-roundabout.asp

Currently TCH104 traffic entering the Rotary (from the left below) and TCH105 (from the upper right) has the right-of-way and traffic already in the rotary must yield to the TCH traffic. In the new configuration.....all traffic entering the new Roundabout will now yield.


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51391613677_39cba30859_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2miishM)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51392375716_59b670d25d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2minmPo)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51391613707_29832d951b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2miisii)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51393390590_b04da99579_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2misyvd)

Photo #1
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51393106999_f7fe2e05c3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mir7cH)

Photo #2
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51392375581_1c04440920_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2minmM4)

Photo #3
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51391613442_8813e805e7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2miisdJ)

Photo #4
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51393106699_2ec38e1bce_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mir77x)

Photo #5
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51393390095_60c66dc0f0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2misymF)


They also plan to construct a storage/holding-lane between the new Roundabout and the Canso Causeway Swing-Bridge just to the west. Currently when the bridge is open traffic backs up through the rotary impeding other traffic not intending to cross the bridge.

Wonder how they intend to fill/empty the storage/holding-lane? Will it be a passing lane with traffic jumping ahead of those already stopped..... then trying to merge back in when the bridge reopens? I can see road-rage happening! 


Below, Photo #6.....the storage/holding-lane will be added on the left.....westbound, downhill toward the swing-bridge.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51392633818_a834e9229b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mioFxq)
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: froggie on August 21, 2021, 10:42:07 AM
Quote
Currently when the bridge is open traffic backs up through the rotary impeding other traffic not intending to cross the bridge.

Despite the "road rage" potential, this is probably why they're building the storage lane...so that bridge openings don't back traffic up into the roundabout.
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: ghYHZ on August 21, 2021, 10:56:54 AM
Quote
Currently when the bridge is open traffic backs up through the rotary impeding other traffic not intending to cross the bridge.

Despite the "road rage" potential, this is probably why they're building the storage lane...so that bridge openings don't back traffic up into the roundabout.

That's exactly why they're doing it and discussed in the video in the link above. A considerable amount of traffic can build when the bridge is open.....usually for about 15 minutes but can extend to 30. (I get caught quite often!)

And you can get a string of traffic entering the rotary from TCH105 westbound that have managed to stay together since arriving on the Newfoundland Ferry a hour & a half away.......450 cars/trucks/RVs and only a few passing lanes! 
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: Rothman on August 21, 2021, 12:45:05 PM
All for it.  The current layout is a mess and is confusing (having been through it now a couple of times).  Signage is in a desperate need of updating for clarity.
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: yakra on August 22, 2021, 11:13:15 PM
Pity that right turn movement near Lovers Ln will become something much less direct.
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: froggie on August 25, 2021, 09:08:49 AM
Has the province ever considered a high level fixed bridge to replace the swing bridge?  Or would there be too many impacts from such?
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: paulthemapguy on August 25, 2021, 09:31:54 AM
Has the province ever considered a high level fixed bridge to replace the swing bridge?  Or would there be too many impacts from such?

The roadway is so close to the water that I doubt you'd have enough width to build a stable embankment leading up to the elevated bridge...unless you make the whole thing into a big tall (expensive) flyover ramp.
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: cbeach40 on August 25, 2021, 03:23:11 PM
Has the province ever considered a high level fixed bridge to replace the swing bridge?  Or would there be too many impacts from such?

The roadway is so close to the water that I doubt you'd have enough width to build a stable embankment leading up to the elevated bridge...unless you make the whole thing into a big tall (expensive) flyover ramp.

In a scenario like that the embankment may well be more expensive than having it be almost entirely structural. Tunneling may be a better option, though having no idea as to the geology, hydrology, etc there not sure how technically feasible that may be.

In any event, the design here seems to scream that they're trying to save money and minimize local property impacts. Doing anything like that, or doing this junction up as something that would perform better like and interchange, seems beyond what they're willing or able to do here.
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: ghYHZ on August 25, 2021, 04:33:22 PM
Has the province ever considered a high level fixed bridge to replace the swing bridge?  Or would there be too many impacts from such?

The roadway is so close to the water that I doubt you'd have enough width to build a stable embankment leading up to the elevated bridge...unless you make the whole thing into a big tall (expensive) flyover ramp.

In a scenario like that the embankment may well be more expensive than having it be almost entirely structural. Tunneling may be a better option, though having no idea as to the geology, hydrology, etc there not sure how technically feasible that may be.

It would be a deep tunnel! The Causeway base is 65m (213') deep in the centre of the Strait.

A Cantilever Bridge was proposed in 1903.....50 years before the Causeway.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51402643933_02618bfe9d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mjgZcB)

Perhaps an elevated structure would work.....following the s-curve of the causeway...... climbing and reaching it's highest point above canal. It would then land up on the cliff on the Cape Breton side roughly at the new roundabout. There is also a railway on the causeway so a swing-bridge would still be required under a  new structure. (Below.... this gives an idea of the width and alignment of the causeway)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7Zh8P3lLX0c/VjY7M_QGp4I/AAAAAAAAPnQ/IICzAFU63_c/s800-Ic42/77-10Scan10119.JPG)

And watching the video in the link above....it sounds like these are stop-gap improvements on a fixed budget until they make a long term decision on the swing bridge. 
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: webny99 on August 25, 2021, 05:16:54 PM
Quote
Currently when the bridge is open traffic backs up through the rotary impeding other traffic not intending to cross the bridge.

Despite the "road rage" potential, this is probably why they're building the storage lane...so that bridge openings don't back traffic up into the roundabout.

That's exactly why they're doing it and discussed in the video in the link above. A considerable amount of traffic can build when the bridge is open.....usually for about 15 minutes but can extend to 30. (I get caught quite often!)

And you can get a string of traffic entering the rotary from TCH105 westbound that have managed to stay together since arriving on the Newfoundland Ferry a hour & a half away.......450 cars/trucks/RVs and only a few passing lanes!

With proper signage, I wouldn't think road rage should be an issue. If traffic backs up in both lanes, as it should, drivers will just have to get used to alternating once the bridge opens back up.

The bigger issue might be that traffic could still back up into the roundabout even with another lane... as it presumably does now with the existing rotary.
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 25, 2021, 05:27:35 PM
Quote
Currently when the bridge is open traffic backs up through the rotary impeding other traffic not intending to cross the bridge.

Despite the "road rage" potential, this is probably why they're building the storage lane...so that bridge openings don't back traffic up into the roundabout.

That's exactly why they're doing it and discussed in the video in the link above. A considerable amount of traffic can build when the bridge is open.....usually for about 15 minutes but can extend to 30. (I get caught quite often!)

And you can get a string of traffic entering the rotary from TCH105 westbound that have managed to stay together since arriving on the Newfoundland Ferry a hour & a half away.......450 cars/trucks/RVs and only a few passing lanes!

With proper signage, I wouldn't think road rage should be an issue. If traffic backs up in both lanes, as it should, drivers will just have to get used to alternating once the bridge opens back up.

The bigger issue might be that traffic could still back up into the roundabout even with another lane... as it presumably does now with the existing rotary.

The road rage comes from sitting there while the bridge is open.
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: cbeach40 on August 26, 2021, 01:45:04 PM

It would be a deep tunnel! The Causeway base is 65m (213') deep in the centre of the Strait.


 :-o That would be deep  :-o

Perhaps an elevated structure would work.....following the s-curve of the causeway...... climbing and reaching it's highest point above canal. It would then land up on the cliff on the Cape Breton side roughly at the new roundabout. There is also a railway on the causeway so a swing-bridge would still be required under a  new structure. (Below.... this gives an idea of the width and alignment of the causeway)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7Zh8P3lLX0c/VjY7M_QGp4I/AAAAAAAAPnQ/IICzAFU63_c/s800-Ic42/77-10Scan10119.JPG)

And watching the video in the link above....it sounds like these are stop-gap improvements on a fixed budget until they make a long term decision on the swing bridge. 


Here's an idea - build a second opening bridge on the west side of the lock. Would be a pretty low speed as to avoid having to expand the banks too much. But at least one bridge could remain open to auto traffic at a time.

Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: ghYHZ on August 26, 2021, 02:02:42 PM
Here's an idea - build a second opening bridge on the west side of the lock. Would be a pretty low speed as to avoid having to expand the banks too much. But at least one bridge could remain open to auto traffic at a time.

Now that's an idea!.....and similar to the diversion for both road and rail traffic around the St. Lambert Lock at the Victoria Bridge in Montreal.


https://goo.gl/maps/LGs9bUiXB4aWFTHR7
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: 1995hoo on August 26, 2021, 02:03:54 PM
Here's an idea - build a second opening bridge on the west side of the lock. Would be a pretty low speed as to avoid having to expand the banks too much. But at least one bridge could remain open to auto traffic at a time.

Are you thinking of something similar to the east end of the Pont Victoria in Montreal where there are two bridges over the St. Lawrence Seaway in order to keep traffic moving when one has to be raised for a passing ship? The structures for the overhead power lines, and the lighthouse next to those, might make that difficult at the Canso Causeway unless they were to dump more fill to expand the area immediately south of the canal to accommodate the roadway.

Regarding people getting angry at people queuing in the other lane, I've certainly seen that happen elsewhere. The first time I took Amtrak's Auto Train from Virginia to Florida, I lined up in the right-hand of two lines for the car check-in because that line was substantially shorter. Some old man tried to prevent me from merging and was livid when I got in front of him anyway, yelling that I cut him off and that I should watch myself (never mind the multiple Amtrak employees telling him I was in the right, though I doubt I helped matters after that by saying it wasn't my fault he was an idiot). Some people are stupid and are just plain convinced that one particular lane is the "correct" lane that has priority—I suppose, in some ways, it's similar to the "merge early" crowd who insist that thou shalt always get over a mile in advance when a lane ends or is closed. (But let's not start that debate here.)
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: kphoger on August 26, 2021, 02:22:40 PM
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HarshCircularImago-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: webny99 on August 26, 2021, 02:24:48 PM
^ Yeah, I think it might be too late to keep all the worms in the can...




With proper signage, I wouldn't think road rage should be an issue. If traffic backs up in both lanes, as it should, drivers will just have to get used to alternating once the bridge opens back up.

The bigger issue might be that traffic could still back up into the roundabout even with another lane... as it presumably does now with the existing rotary.

The road rage comes from sitting there while the bridge is open.

I get that, but I don't see how an extra lane makes that worse.
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: ghYHZ on August 26, 2021, 02:27:36 PM
Here's an idea - build a second opening bridge on the west side of the lock. Would be a pretty low speed as to avoid having to expand the banks too much. But at least one bridge could remain open to auto traffic at a time.

Are you thinking of something similar to the east end of the Pont Victoria in Montreal where there are two bridges over the St. Lawrence Seaway in order to keep traffic moving when one has to be raised for a passing ship? The structures for the overhead power lines, and the lighthouse next to those, might make that difficult at the Canso Causeway unless they were to dump more fill to expand the area immediately south of the canal to accommodate the roadway.

Just might work! You'd be dealing with some tight curves on/off the new bridge depending on how much fill is placed.......but no worse than the roundabout radius!

https://goo.gl/maps/4DwjEQSzNBUfs4HdA
Title: Re: Rotary to Roundabout at Port Hastings
Post by: Richard3 on March 23, 2022, 07:34:16 PM
It's been a while since I woke up a sleeping topic...

I looked at Google Maps to see the area, and I figured out that the TCH-104/Trunk 4 interchange (well, let's say "intersection" for now) northeast of Port Hawkesbury was promised to a much bigger project, that could bypass Pt. Hawkesbury and Pt. Hastings as well. Let's imagine that, from west to east.

First, connect back Trunk 4 and the actual TCH-104 east, following the remnants of the ancient road, and start a brand new TCH-104 east, just west of the actual one. Then let it stretch southeast, crossing Tower Rd., passing under the power lines, and crossing Hillside Dr., before turning east, passing south of O'Brien Rd, and crossing Marine Dr. (NS-344), the railway and Trunk 4 (actual TCH-104), before crossing Barrys River/Aulds Cove on a brand new bridge, northwest of the causeway. The new TCH-104 would cross Ceilidh Trail (Trunk 19) just south of the southern end of Fox Rd., would stretch northeast, then curve east just south of the NS Power site, cross TCH-105 and pass under the power lines, before bypassing Hector Lake by the north, and curve southeast, following the power lines, crossing Kings Rd. and Crandall Rd. on its way to connect to actual TCH-104 at the Trunk 4 interchange. Finally, add some interchanges along the way where needed, like at Sunrise Trail (Trunk 4), Ceilidh Trail (Trunk 19), and TCH-105.

The new bridge, crossing Barrys River/Aulds Cove, would be one lane per direction, and be twinned when needed.

That kind of project would be expensive, for sure, but will separate transit and local traffics, and, foremost, definitely put an end to the swing bridge wait.