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I-11 PEL Study for Las Vegas

Started by brad2971, June 22, 2022, 11:19:41 PM

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brad2971

https://www.dot.nv.gov/Home/Components/News/News/7551/395

Looks like Nevada DOT is going with the I-515/US95 path through Downtown Las Vegas. Which makes me wonder if, before NDOT embarks on the Downtown Access Project, they'll seek more federal funding for that project due to the I-11 designation.


pderocco

I wonder if they'll just re-sign I-515 as I-11, and leave NW US-95 alone for now. It would be odd to call that piece I-11 at least until the entire beltway is adopted as I-215.

brad2971

Quote from: pderocco on June 23, 2022, 01:45:57 AM
I wonder if they'll just re-sign I-515 as I-11, and leave NW US-95 alone for now. It would be odd to call that piece I-11 at least until the entire beltway is adopted as I-215.

The thing is, NDOT and Clark County Public Works aren't that far away from adopting the entire beltway as I-215. The northeast junction of I-15/CC-215 will likely be done before year's end, and CC-215 will probably be on its main lanes through the Centennial Bowl by then as well.

The Ghostbuster

I am glad the Nevada DOT chose to route Interstate 11 along Interstate 515 and US 95 though the Las Vegas Area. Routing 11 along Interstate/Clark County 215 didn't make sense to me (although if the Western Alternative Corridor/Sheep Mountain Option were built, I would support numbering it Interstate 211). At least in this case, common sense prevailed!

MATraveler128

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 23, 2022, 12:33:07 PM
I am glad the Nevada DOT chose to route Interstate 11 along Interstate 515 and US 95 though the Las Vegas Area. Routing 11 along Interstate/Clark County 215 didn't make sense to me (although if the Western Alternative Corridor/Sheep Mountain Option were built, I would support numbering it Interstate 211). At least in this case, common sense prevailed!

I agree and besides, the 215 number has been in use since 1993. It’s an iconic number for the Las Vegas Valley. My question is that is the US 95 freeway north of I-15 up to Interstate standards yet? If it is, NDOT could post I-11 shields as far north as the Snow Mountain exit.
Decommission 128 south of Peabody!

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stevashe

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on June 23, 2022, 02:22:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 23, 2022, 12:33:07 PM
I am glad the Nevada DOT chose to route Interstate 11 along Interstate 515 and US 95 though the Las Vegas Area. Routing 11 along Interstate/Clark County 215 didn't make sense to me (although if the Western Alternative Corridor/Sheep Mountain Option were built, I would support numbering it Interstate 211). At least in this case, common sense prevailed!

I agree and besides, the 215 number has been in use since 1993. It's an iconic number for the Las Vegas Valley. My question is that is the US 95 freeway north of I-15 up to Interstate standards yet? If it is, NDOT could post I-11 shields as far north as the Snow Mountain exit.

According to the report, it just needs to be reviewed by the FHWA for compliance with standards and any design exceptions and then I-11 would be signed up to the Kyle Canyon exit.

Alps

Quote from: stevashe on June 24, 2022, 12:14:12 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on June 23, 2022, 02:22:05 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on June 23, 2022, 12:33:07 PM
I am glad the Nevada DOT chose to route Interstate 11 along Interstate 515 and US 95 though the Las Vegas Area. Routing 11 along Interstate/Clark County 215 didn't make sense to me (although if the Western Alternative Corridor/Sheep Mountain Option were built, I would support numbering it Interstate 211). At least in this case, common sense prevailed!

I agree and besides, the 215 number has been in use since 1993. It's an iconic number for the Las Vegas Valley. My question is that is the US 95 freeway north of I-15 up to Interstate standards yet? If it is, NDOT could post I-11 shields as far north as the Snow Mountain exit.

According to the report, it just needs to be reviewed by the FHWA for compliance with standards and any design exceptions and then I-11 would be signed up to the Kyle Canyon exit.
We were just discussing this in chat. I figured it'd go that far but others thought it'd only replace I-515 for now. It makes sense to push it as far north as possible.

Henry

I'm glad that they did the right thing, because I always saw I-515 as the most logical routing and a placeholder for I-11.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

pderocco

Quote from: Henry on June 24, 2022, 10:51:43 AM
I'm glad that they did the right thing, because I always saw I-515 as the most logical routing and a placeholder for I-11.

Sometimes, there seems to be a reluctance to create "dead end" interstates, so I find it surprising that I-11 will soon just peter out into the non-freeway US-95.

pderocco

Quote from: brad2971 on June 23, 2022, 08:24:46 AM
Quote from: pderocco on June 23, 2022, 01:45:57 AM
I wonder if they'll just re-sign I-515 as I-11, and leave NW US-95 alone for now. It would be odd to call that piece I-11 at least until the entire beltway is adopted as I-215.

The thing is, NDOT and Clark County Public Works aren't that far away from adopting the entire beltway as I-215. The northeast junction of I-15/CC-215 will likely be done before year's end, and CC-215 will probably be on its main lanes through the Centennial Bowl by then as well.

Isn't that mostly an FHWA decision? Given that I-210 in California is still CA-210 east of San Dimas, even though it's been up to interstate standards as far as I-215 since it was finished about 13 years ago, I'm wondering if this will be as easy as it sounds.

roadfro

Quote from: brad2971 on June 22, 2022, 11:19:41 PM
Which makes me wonder if, before NDOT embarks on the Downtown Access Project, they'll seek more federal funding for that project due to the I-11 designation.

I wouldn't expect any difference in federal funding for the DAP given the stretch already has the an interstate designation.

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on June 23, 2022, 02:22:05 PM
I agree and besides, the 215 number has been in use since 1993. It's an iconic number for the Las Vegas Valley.

The I-215 number was approved by FHWA in 1993, but the first beltway segment (I-15 to Warm Springs Road and the airport connector) didn't open until 1996. By contrast, the I-515 number was originally approved by AASHTO in 1976, but was not signed until the freeway opened down to Railroad Pass in 1994. So the I-515 number came first, but the I-215 number more quickly entered the public lexicon because it was a new highway on new alignment (compared to I-515, which had its shields added where US 93 & 95 had already been signed for over a decade and locals already referred to it as "the 95"). But mid-1990s to early 2020s isn't really 'iconic' either way.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

roadfro


Quote from: Alps on June 24, 2022, 12:17:55 AM
Quote from: stevashe on June 24, 2022, 12:14:12 AM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on June 23, 2022, 02:22:05 PM
My question is that is the US 95 freeway north of I-15 up to Interstate standards yet? If it is, NDOT could post I-11 shields as far north as the Snow Mountain exit.

According to the report, it just needs to be reviewed by the FHWA for compliance with standards and any design exceptions and then I-11 would be signed up to the Kyle Canyon exit.
We were just discussing this in chat. I figured it'd go that far but others thought it'd only replace I-515 for now. It makes sense to push it as far north as possible.

Quote from: pderocco on June 25, 2022, 06:31:19 PM
Quote from: brad2971 on June 23, 2022, 08:24:46 AM
Quote from: pderocco on June 23, 2022, 01:45:57 AM
I wonder if they'll just re-sign I-515 as I-11, and leave NW US-95 alone for now. It would be odd to call that piece I-11 at least until the entire beltway is adopted as I-215.

The thing is, NDOT and Clark County Public Works aren't that far away from adopting the entire beltway as I-215. The northeast junction of I-15/CC-215 will likely be done before year's end, and CC-215 will probably be on its main lanes through the Centennial Bowl by then as well.

Isn't that mostly an FHWA decision? Given that I-210 in California is still CA-210 east of San Dimas, even though it's been up to interstate standards as far as I-215 since it was finished about 13 years ago, I'm wondering if this will be as easy as it sounds.

The vast majority of US 95 west/north of I-15 was built out to interstate standards during US 95 freeway reconstruction in the mid-2000s. Other than some short sections of the southbound lanes where there are likely some right shoulder width issues (through the Rainbow Curve and along parts of the CD road between CC-215 to Ann Road), there aren't any major design deficiencies that I'm aware of. It's certainly not much more than a minor design exception that FHWA would likely sign off on in order to put up the shields–heck, there's parts of existing I-515 (especially downtown to I-15) that likely have worse compliance with the modern interstate standards.


If the Central Corridor is ultimately adopted as this PEL study seems to indicate, I would expect that NDOT would seek to renumber I-515 to I-11 right away...especially since they already renumbered the southern portion of I-515 a few years ago. All that would take is an FHWA and AASHTO approval and a sign swap.

If past precedent with 3DIs is any indication, NDOT might be a bit more hesitant to sign I-11 along US 95 right away. However, the difference this time is that you have an existing freeway not being built piecemeal that you could extend the designation to right away. To me, it makes more sense to terminate the I-11 designation at the 215, but I can also see the case for getting it to go further north and SR 157 is a logical end point until you get interstate standard and access control buttoned up further north to SR 156 or beyond.

But regardless of where they'd want the I-shields to end, I don't think it would take much effort to get the shields to happen–NDOT would just need to go through the motions with FHWA and AASHTO. It's still the plan for CC-215, once the final system interchanges are completed and NDOT & Clark County swap ownership & maintenance, and should just be a formality for FHWA & AASHTO to approve. So I don't know why Caltrans hasn't done this with 210 and other facilities...
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

cl94

There is precedent for a new I-designation not being allowed along a very-substandard freeway that already carries another designation. See I-26 through Asheville, NC. That being said, I don't see anything along 515 that would prevent a redesignation as I-11. Short sections with narrow shoulders are something the feds will sign off on; it's extended segments with no shoulder and lack of acceleration/deceleration lanes that will prevent a designation from being applied.

Re: where the designation will end, it will almost certainly not extend north of 215. The feds are really specific about where a designation is allowed to begin/end; this is a lot of why various segments of I-86 begin/end where they do in New York. I doubt Kyle Canyon Road/ SR 157 is major enough to qualify as an end point and it has at-grades between there and the military installations (which would qualify as end points).

Since funding was mentioned: at this point, slapping I-11 on an existing freeway will result in very minimal changes in allocation of funds. There is no special "Interstate fund" for maintaining Interstates- it's NHS or not and it's collector/arterial or not. It'll change functional class, but funding of Interstate and non-Interstate NHS freeways is nearly identical if other things are equal.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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Alps

Quote from: pderocco on June 25, 2022, 06:25:22 PM
Quote from: Henry on June 24, 2022, 10:51:43 AM
I'm glad that they did the right thing, because I always saw I-515 as the most logical routing and a placeholder for I-11.

Sometimes, there seems to be a reluctance to create "dead end" interstates, so I find it surprising that I-11 will soon just peter out into the non-freeway US-95.
Ask I-2 how it feels. US 95 is a perfectly cromulent NHS corridor so an Interstate can end at it (or along it) just fine.

mgk920

couldn't The parts of that highway that are not yet accepted by AASHTO/FHWA as I-11 simply be temporarily designated as 'NV11' (like with CA15 in San Diego, CA)?

Mike

cl94

Quote from: mgk920 on June 26, 2022, 02:53:05 PM
couldn't The parts of that highway that are not yet accepted by AASHTO/FHWA as I-11 simply be temporarily designated as 'NV11' (like with CA15 in San Diego, CA)?

I was thinking pull a North Carolina and just sign anything beyond accepted termini as "future I-11". There, it has the I-shield and the average person won't know the difference!
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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roadfro

Quote from: cl94 on June 26, 2022, 03:10:24 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 26, 2022, 02:53:05 PM
couldn't The parts of that highway that are not yet accepted by AASHTO/FHWA as I-11 simply be temporarily designated as 'NV11' (like with CA15 in San Diego, CA)?

I was thinking pull a North Carolina and just sign anything beyond accepted termini as "future I-11". There, it has the I-shield and the average person won't know the difference!

As things stand now, the freeway standards of US 95 end at the Snow Mountain interchange–an at grade access is about 3 miles north, and the Cold Creek intersection is about 6 miles north. No sense in signing anything, "future I-11" or otherwise, further north than there until upgrades happen. (That said, it wouldn't take too much in the way of improvements to bring US 95 up to freeway standard all the way up to Indian Springs, which would be the next logical endpoint for I-11, but that is a topic for another thread.)
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

DenverBrian

Quote from: roadfro on June 26, 2022, 08:23:31 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 26, 2022, 03:10:24 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 26, 2022, 02:53:05 PM
couldn't The parts of that highway that are not yet accepted by AASHTO/FHWA as I-11 simply be temporarily designated as 'NV11' (like with CA15 in San Diego, CA)?

I was thinking pull a North Carolina and just sign anything beyond accepted termini as "future I-11". There, it has the I-shield and the average person won't know the difference!

As things stand now, the freeway standards of US 95 end at the Snow Mountain interchange–an at grade access is about 3 miles north, and the Cold Creek intersection is about 6 miles north. No sense in signing anything, "future I-11" or otherwise, further north than there until upgrades happen.)
Tell that to Arizona, which has all of US93 north of Wickenburg signed as "Future I-11 Corridor."

The most common sensical thing would be to swap the existing I-515 signs for I-11 and be done with it for now. Heck, half the I-515 signs are probably so sun roasted now as to be unreadable. (Many, many guide signs in Las Vegas are roached and peeling due to desert sun.)

The Ghostbuster

I agree that Interstate 11 should be signposted to Interstate 15 (and beyond). However, I believe the Interstate 515 designation will continue to exist for some time to come.

skluth

There's no prohibition against both numbers on the same highway. I-894 preceded the existence of I-41 around Milwaukee and continues to exist despite I-41 being concurrent the entire length. It may look strange or stupid depending on your viewpoint, but I-515 could continue to exist even if I-11 is concurrent its entire length. Do Las Vegas residents call it I-515 or do they call it US 95 like St Louisans who continue to call I-64 US 40? If many call it US 95, they could just rename it I-11 and nobody would know the difference.

roadfro


Quote from: skluth on July 19, 2022, 10:47:54 AM
There's no prohibition against both numbers on the same highway. I-894 preceded the existence of I-41 around Milwaukee and continues to exist despite I-41 being concurrent the entire length. It may look strange or stupid depending on your viewpoint, but I-515 could continue to exist even if I-11 is concurrent its entire length. Do Las Vegas residents call it I-515 or do they call it US 95 like St Louisans who continue to call I-64 US 40? If many call it US 95, they could just rename it I-11 and nobody would know the difference.

As someone who grew up in Vegas and remember the freeway before the interstate shields went up, I still call it US 95 by default outside of a roadgeek setting. It took a long time for I-515 (or "the 515") to enter the local lexicon after the interstate shields first went up in the mid-1990s–both people just talking about the freeway, as well as media use (referring to the 515 in traffic reports, use in local commercial spots, etc.). I'd say that took at least 10 years before it became common place. However, a lot of people still refer to it as US 95 (or "the 95"), because US 95 is the through freeway at the Spaghetti Bowl and was one of the two routes that continued south outside the valley.

However, it is unlikely that NDOT will display both shields. The fact that they changed I-515 to I-11 south of the I-215/SR 564 interchange a couple years ago after the Boulder City Bypass opened is proof of that.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

DenverBrian

Quote from: roadfro on July 19, 2022, 11:48:31 AM

Quote from: skluth on July 19, 2022, 10:47:54 AM
There's no prohibition against both numbers on the same highway. I-894 preceded the existence of I-41 around Milwaukee and continues to exist despite I-41 being concurrent the entire length. It may look strange or stupid depending on your viewpoint, but I-515 could continue to exist even if I-11 is concurrent its entire length. Do Las Vegas residents call it I-515 or do they call it US 95 like St Louisans who continue to call I-64 US 40? If many call it US 95, they could just rename it I-11 and nobody would know the difference.

As someone who grew up in Vegas and remember the freeway before the interstate shields went up, I still call it US 95 by default outside of a roadgeek setting. It took a long time for I-515 (or "the 515") to enter the local lexicon after the interstate shields first went up in the mid-1990s–both people just talking about the freeway, as well as media use (referring to the 515 in traffic reports, use in local commercial spots, etc.). I'd say that took at least 10 years before it became common place. However, a lot of people still refer to it as US 95 (or "the 95"), because US 95 is the through freeway at the Spaghetti Bowl and was one of the two routes that continued south outside the valley.

However, it is unlikely that NDOT will display both shields. The fact that they changed I-515 to I-11 south of the I-215/SR 564 interchange a couple years ago after the Boulder City Bypass opened is proof of that.
Please do not let Nevada become California with use of "the 95," "the 515," etc. :D :D :D

cl94

I'd be shocked if 515 remains a thing once 11 is designated up to 15 for the reasons mentioned above. Unlike 894 in Milwaukee, it's not like 515 is the designation locals know the road as, and NDOT has a history of wiping old designations when something is renumbered.

See also how exits along 580 were renumbered for 580 mileage as opposed to continuing to use 395 mileage as they did prior to the upgrade. Not only do I expect 515 to disappear, but they're likely going to renumber those exits to use I-11 mileage. This of course will create a discontinuity at I-15, but there already is one at 215.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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roadfro

Quote from: DenverBrian on July 19, 2022, 09:17:15 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 19, 2022, 11:48:31 AM

Quote from: skluth on July 19, 2022, 10:47:54 AM
There's no prohibition against both numbers on the same highway. I-894 preceded the existence of I-41 around Milwaukee and continues to exist despite I-41 being concurrent the entire length. It may look strange or stupid depending on your viewpoint, but I-515 could continue to exist even if I-11 is concurrent its entire length. Do Las Vegas residents call it I-515 or do they call it US 95 like St Louisans who continue to call I-64 US 40? If many call it US 95, they could just rename it I-11 and nobody would know the difference.

As someone who grew up in Vegas and remember the freeway before the interstate shields went up, I still call it US 95 by default outside of a roadgeek setting. It took a long time for I-515 (or "the 515") to enter the local lexicon after the interstate shields first went up in the mid-1990s–both people just talking about the freeway, as well as media use (referring to the 515 in traffic reports, use in local commercial spots, etc.). I'd say that took at least 10 years before it became common place. However, a lot of people still refer to it as US 95 (or "the 95"), because US 95 is the through freeway at the Spaghetti Bowl and was one of the two routes that continued south outside the valley.

However, it is unlikely that NDOT will display both shields. The fact that they changed I-515 to I-11 south of the I-215/SR 564 interchange a couple years ago after the Boulder City Bypass opened is proof of that.
Please do not let Nevada become California with use of "the 95," "the 515," etc. :D :D :D
You're about 20 years too late... That verbiage has been very present in the Las Vegas area for years. (Funnily enough, it is not present in northern Nevada, similarly to how it's also not very present in northern California.)

Quote from: cl94 on July 19, 2022, 11:59:00 PM
I'd be shocked if 515 remains a thing once 11 is designated up to 15 for the reasons mentioned above. Unlike 894 in Milwaukee, it's not like 515 is the designation locals know the road as, and NDOT has a history of wiping old designations when something is renumbered.

See also how exits along 580 were renumbered for 580 mileage as opposed to continuing to use 395 mileage as they did prior to the upgrade. Not only do I expect 515 to disappear, but they're likely going to renumber those exits to use I-11 mileage. This of course will create a discontinuity at I-15, but there already is one at 215.

I'd say many locals (the more recent ones) know of and sometimes use the I-515 designation in everyday parlance. Just more locals (especially the long-time locals) are probably more likely to use the US 95 designation...

I wouldn't say NDOT has a history of renumbering roads. Aside from the portion of I-515 renumbered to I-11, there's relatively few routes that they've renumbered since the statewide renumbering in 1976.

NDOT would definitely renumber I-515 exits to match I-11 mileage, per the recent I-580 exit renumbering. (I think NDOT only renumbered I-580's exits after finally having all the pieces of the freeway constructed so that they could actually know the exact mileages and have everything make sense...and also noting that the interstate wasn't even signed until the last decade.) There's already an issue with the exit numbering on US 95 being off from something years ago that they've never quite fixed--see jump from Craig Road exit 85 to Rancho Dr/Ann Road exit 90A-B despite there being about 2 miles between those interchanges.
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

US 89

Quote from: roadfro on July 20, 2022, 10:52:21 AM
Quote from: DenverBrian on July 19, 2022, 09:17:15 PM
Please do not let Nevada become California with use of "the 95," "the 515," etc. :D :D :D
You're about 20 years too late... That verbiage has been very present in the Las Vegas area for years. (Funnily enough, it is not present in northern Nevada, similarly to how it's also not very present in northern California.)

It's also a thing in Phoenix now, from what I hear. Really anywhere with a large amount of specifically Southern California transplants.



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