California Observations

[Brandon]

Just went out to Bakersfield to visit my parents (moved there last October).  First real time driving around California.  Went around Bakersfield, out to the coast and down to San Diego.

Routes taken: I-5, I-805, I-8, US-101, CA-166, CA-126, CA-163, CA-99, CA-33, CA-119.

Flew into Burbank at night.  LA is an interesting combination of light and dark areas at night.  The hills are dark without any light whatsoever, and the valleys are bright as day.  Anyway, got onto I-5 north from Hollywood Way and went over the mountains to Bakersfield.  The truck traffic rivals I-80/94 in Indiana on I-5 there.  Noticed that the CalNEXUS programs is either half-assed or half finished.  Some signs had exit numbers while others were devoid of them.  They're damned useless without proper mileposts.  CalTrans also seems to believe you don't need the information as to how far the next exit is.  That was most annoying.  Anyway, the mountains were not all that steep IMHO when compared to Colorado, but the extra lanes were appreciated.  Came into town on Cal 99.

Driving around Bakersfield was an adventure.  Every flipping left turn is protected only.  If there was a signal, the left had no permitted phase.  Rather silly, IMHO.  If it's clear, then you should be able to go.  The revenue..er..red light cameras have no advance warning signs (required in Illinois).  In addition, the major streets were all signed for 50 or 55 mph.  They might be better at 40 to 45 mph, IMHO.  Most folks seem to drive them at 40 to 45.  Also, the main streets had medians that prevented what I thought were logical left turn locations.

Took Panama Ln out to Cal 43 and then down to Cal 119 to Taft and stopped by the oil workers monument.  Got pictures.  Continued down Cal 33 to Cal 166 in Maricopia.  Apparently Maricopia's PD is disbanded as both the chief and assistant are on administrative leave.  From what I've heard, good riddance; it's supposed to be quite the speed trap.  From Maricopia, followed Cal 166 west to US-101, stopping by the San Andreas Fault at the Carrizo Plain NM.  Took US-101 south to Solvang and spent some time there.  Nice little town; however, the pedestrians (and this is from what I've seen in California) cross without even looking for traffic.  In Chicago, they'd be road pancakes if they did that.

From there, continued down US-101 to Ventura.  In Ventura, visited the Channel Islands NP visitors center.  Cool place.  Walked a bit of the beach there and got a few sunset photos of the sun setting over the islands.  Took Cal 126 back to I-5 and Cal 99 to Bakersfield.  One thing I noticed about California, as compared to the Midwest, is that population seems every concentrated.  You have one place with a lot of people, and then miles upon miles of nothing in between.  Here, people seem a bit more spread out.

Went to visit the San Diego Zoo on Monday (12/26).  Took Cal 99 to I-5 through LA.  I-5 winds its way through LA, and the drivers seemed fine on the straights, but slowed for every flipping curve.  Could not figure out what the fuss about LA drivers is about.  They're, IMHO, like Chicago drivers who use turn signals.  Anyway, went down I-5 to I-805 (someone used an online mapping service - not me - to figure the route).  I realized that we were too far east and took I-8 back to Cal 163 and got to the zoo.  Used I-5 all the way back to Cal 99.  What is the point of the border patrol crappola..er..station north of San Diego?  All it seemed to do was stop up traffic for no really good reason.

A few other observations: Jake, I'm sorry, but those old button copy signs have got to go.  They're completely illegible at night.  Dangerously illegible.  I couldn't discern even with the lights shining on them.  CalTrans needs mileposts in the worst way, and needs to add signage letting folks know where the next exit is.  They also need more services signage between LA and San Diego.  Had to guess at an exit for a gas station in Carlsbad and got lucky.  IMHO, CalTrans is way behind the times and needs to catchup to where the Midwest is.  It's hard to believe they were an innovator at one time.  I do; however, like the separate truck lanes at major interchanges.  It's a good idea; would not mind seeing it implemented here, especially along I-80.

[OCGuy81]

Noticed that the CalNEXUS programs is either half-assed or half finished.

Some areas are certainly lacking, LA County being one such area.  Here in Orange County, the exit numbers are pretty well signed, even though a lot of older signs have the number added in the corner of the BGS, kind of as an afterthought.

Took Cal 99 to I-5 through LA.

Direct, but if you have more time on another visit, I'd suggest cutting over to CA-1, at least to drive south from Newport Beach and take in some beautiful views of the coast near Laguna Beach.

What is the point of the border patrol crappola..er..station north of San Diego?  All it seemed to do was stop up traffic for no really good reason.

A bit of an annoyance, I totally agree.  I've never had to fully stop, just slow to about 5 MPH while I'm waved through.  Just don't get too tan in SD and you'll be fine if you catch my drift. 

A few other observations: Jake, I'm sorry, but those old button copy signs have got to go.  They're completely illegible at night.  Dangerously illegible.  I couldn't discern even with the lights shining on them.  CalTrans needs mileposts in the worst way, and needs to add signage letting folks know where the next exit is.  They also need more services signage between LA and San Diego.  Had to guess at an exit for a gas station in Carlsbad and got lucky.

I'd suggest next time, if driving at night north of LA, to take the 15.  It's nicely lit, and a lot of the signage has been replaced in recent years with the huge growth inland. 

Overall, hope you had a decent trip despite a few traffic observations.  Hopefully the weather was to your liking! :-)

[agentsteel53]

What is the point of the border patrol crappola..er..station north of San Diego?  All it seemed to do was stop up traffic for no really good reason.

what, you failed to kill a Mexican for Jesus while you were down here???  our benevolent leaders are so, so disappointed in you.

[roadfro]

A few other observations: Jake, I'm sorry, but those old button copy signs have got to go.  They're completely illegible at night.  Dangerously illegible.  I couldn't discern even with the lights shining on them.  CalTrans needs mileposts in the worst way, and needs to add signage letting folks know where the next exit is. 

I used to agree on the old signs, but now I find them quite charming and appreciate the historical insight and intrigue they provide. Many of them could stand a good power wash or something to get rid of the rust from bolts and such. CalTrans does need to be better about maintaining the lighting on their older signs until they get replaced...

I'm not quite sure why CalTrans *needs* mileposts. Besides, CalTrans has their postmile system which doubles for the same purpose as mileposts for maintenance and motorist aid purposes.  The typical driver doesn't really use mileposts all that much anyway. Adding exit numbers is much more useful for navigational purposes than mileposts would be. (Although, I think CalTrans did miss an opportunity to implement both exit numbers and conventional mileposts with CalNExUS...)

I am a bit confused as to what you mean by CalTrans needing to "add signage letting folks know where the next exit is." Are interchange sequence signs and/or advance guide signs insufficient?

[agentsteel53]

Adding exit numbers is much more useful for navigational purposes than mileposts would be. (Although, I think CalTrans did miss an opportunity to implement both exit numbers and conventional mileposts with CalNExUS...)

CalNexus sounds like a weird border patrol program...

California missed the opportunity to implement exit numbers in 1971 when they randomly tried out a few in the LA area.

I am a bit confused as to what you mean by CalTrans needing to "add signage letting folks know where the next exit is." Are interchange sequence signs and/or advance guide signs insufficient?

those are sufficient to me, but he does have a very valid point that services signs are sorely lacking.  My least favorite part of the drive to San Francisco from San Diego is that I just plain do not know where to get gas between San Diego and the grapevine (170 miles or so) and then from 152 to the city on 101 (another 90 miles). 

I can find some but I really hate the hit-or-miss nature of the arterials.

at the very least, commercial establishments should invest in some high posts that are visible from well before the decision point for taking the exit vs. staying on the freeway.

[Brandon]

Overall, hope you had a decent trip despite a few traffic observations.  Hopefully the weather was to your liking! :-)

The weather was fine, dry, but fine.    However, it did strike me as a bit odd to be in shorts and a T-shirt in 75 degree weather on December 26th. 

[Brandon]

A few other observations: Jake, I'm sorry, but those old button copy signs have got to go.  They're completely illegible at night.  Dangerously illegible.  I couldn't discern even with the lights shining on them.  CalTrans needs mileposts in the worst way, and needs to add signage letting folks know where the next exit is. 

I used to agree on the old signs, but now I find them quite charming and appreciate the historical insight and intrigue they provide. Many of them could stand a good power wash or something to get rid of the rust from bolts and such. CalTrans does need to be better about maintaining the lighting on their older signs until they get replaced...

I'm not quite sure why CalTrans *needs* mileposts. Besides, CalTrans has their postmile system which doubles for the same purpose as mileposts for maintenance and motorist aid purposes.  The typical driver doesn't really use mileposts all that much anyway. Adding exit numbers is much more useful for navigational purposes than mileposts would be. (Although, I think CalTrans did miss an opportunity to implement both exit numbers and conventional mileposts with CalNExUS...)

I am a bit confused as to what you mean by CalTrans needing to "add signage letting folks know where the next exit is." Are interchange sequence signs and/or advance guide signs insufficient?

CalTrans does not seem to put up signs letting you know the distance to the next exit at most interchanges from what I saw.  Here, around Chicago, IDOT and ISTHA usually put up two or three signs on a gantry.  One is for this exit with an arrow.  The middle one is for the very next exit regardless of distance, and the third is for the exit after that with a distance.  Even WisDOT and InDOT with similar signs in the median to CalTrans use the system described above.

Also, in my experience, drivers to indeed use mileposts to navigate in distance-based exit numbering systems.  It's a quick way to figure out how far you are from your exit and the next exit.  California sorely needs them, IMHO.  Postmiles that reset at county lines don't cut it.

[roadfro]

I am a bit confused as to what you mean by CalTrans needing to "add signage letting folks know where the next exit is." Are interchange sequence signs and/or advance guide signs insufficient?

CalTrans does not seem to put up signs letting you know the distance to the next exit at most interchanges from what I saw.  Here, around Chicago, IDOT and ISTHA usually put up two or three signs on a gantry.  One is for this exit with an arrow.  The middle one is for the very next exit regardless of distance, and the third is for the exit after that with a distance.  Even WisDOT and InDOT with similar signs in the median to CalTrans use the system described above.

What it sounds like you're describing is having one or two advance guide signs (i.e. "Main St / Exit 1 Mile") adjacent to the the exit direction sign for each exit. I was interpreting your comment as something akin to a sign stating "Next exit 14 miles".

CalTrans does tend to rely more on the interchange sequence signs in urban areas (these are the ones mounted in the median with distance to the next 3 exits), but does typically use one advance guide sign at the previous interchange. In rural areas, that first advance sign is not always at the previous exit due to increased spacing but closer to 1-mile or 2-miles out. Both practices follow pretty closely with national MUTCD guidance. Two advance guide signs is a bit overkill, IMO.


EDIT: Fixed quotes.

[myosh_tino]

CalTrans does not seem to put up signs letting you know the distance to the next exit at most interchanges from what I saw.  Here, around Chicago, IDOT and ISTHA usually put up two or three signs on a gantry.  One is for this exit with an arrow.  The middle one is for the very next exit regardless of distance, and the third is for the exit after that with a distance.  Even WisDOT and InDOT with similar signs in the median to CalTrans use the system described above.

Wait, so you want CalTrans to sign rural exits like this...

Edit: I think I got the exit numbers reversed on this sign but you get the point.

Like roadfro said, in urban areas there are plenty of interchange sequence signs to list exits and distances.  Newer sign installations up here in the Bay Area, are pretty good about including an advance guide sign for the next exit on the same sign bridge as the exit direction sign.

Also, in my experience, drivers do indeed use mileposts to navigate in distance-based exit numbering systems.  It's a quick way to figure out how far you are from your exit and the next exit.  California sorely needs them, IMHO.  Postmiles that reset at county lines don't cut it.

While it would be nice to have mileposts, I don't find them to be an absolute necessity.  I'd rather have Caltrans spend what money they have repaving our freeways instead of installing mileposts. Besides, a 1-mile advance guide sign or an interchange sequence sign should give you more than enough time to make your way to the right lane and exit the freeway.

[Brandon]

^^ Exactly.  That's rather common around here.  ISTHA uses it all the time, even if the next exit is 22 miles away.

[NE2]

Some states use a "Next Exit plaque": http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#figure2E23

[myosh_tino]

^^ Exactly.  That's rather common around here.  ISTHA uses it all the time, even if the next exit is 22 miles away.

Sounds like a waste to me.  What advantage does a 7 1/2 mile advance guide sign have over a 1 mile advance guide sign.  [sarcasm]Do drivers where you live need 7 1/2 miles (or 22 in your post) to merge into the right lane to exit the freeway?[/sarcasm]

Seriously, since I grew up in a state that didn't have exit numbers until the past 10 years or so, I learned to navigate primarily by road name and route numbers so I, personally, have little use for exit numbers.  They're nice for people unfamiliar with the area but if you ask a local for directions, I highly doubt you'll get "take 99 north to exit 46".  Instead you'll get "take 99 north to Golden State Blvd"

[NE2]

They're nice for people unfamiliar with the area but if you ask a local for directions, I highly doubt you'll get "take 99 north to exit 46".  Instead you'll get "take 99 north to Golden State Blvd"

"But make sure you stay on 99 until the Golden State Boulevard exit in Fresno. Don't get off at any of the other Golden State Boulevard exits."

[roadfro]

They're nice for people unfamiliar with the area but if you ask a local for directions, I highly doubt you'll get "take 99 north to exit 46".  Instead you'll get "take 99 north to Golden State Blvd"

"But make sure you stay on 99 until the Golden State Boulevard exit in Fresno. Don't get off at any of the other Golden State Boulevard exits."

Agreed, NE2. Some fraternity brothers and I got tripped up in SoCal a few years ago on our way to a service event--we exited some freeway a few miles too early and got onto the wrong Mission Boulevard resulting in us getting lost. Having an exit number to reference certainly would have given me more confidence to stay on the highway.

[myosh_tino]

My bad! 

Using Golden State Blvd wasn't the best road to use in my last post but there aren't a whole lot of examples of a road intersecting a freeway multiple times.

With regards to Mission Blvd in Fremont, yeah, that can be a tad confusing.  Traveling south on 680, the first Mission Blvd exit is also signed as CA-238 and is locally known as the "North" Mission exit.  The second exit is signed as CA-262/TO I-880 and is locally known as the "South" Mission exit.  Of course, this probably doesn't help an out-of-towner.  At least the southbound signs for these exits were replaced and now include exit numbers (but not the northbound signs).

[TheStranger]

With regards to Mission Blvd in Fremont, yeah, that can be a tad confusing.  Traveling south on 680, the first Mission Blvd exit is also signed as CA-238 and is locally known as the "North" Mission exit.  The second exit is signed as CA-262/TO I-880 and is locally known as the "South" Mission exit.  Of course, this probably doesn't help an out-of-towner.  At least the southbound signs for these exits were replaced and now include exit numbers (but not the northbound signs).

I actually think the Mission Boulevard being referred to here is the former US 60 near Riverside...which has two distinct, non-continuous segments nowadays due to the Pomona Freeway/current Route 60.

"Mission Street" and "El Camino Real" all pop up repeatedly to some degree off US 101 from LA to SF as well.

[myosh_tino]

Oh yeah, didn't see the part of roadfro's post that says he was in southern Californa.

My bad (again!) 

[roadfro]

Actually, in thinking about it, I misstated that we were in southern California... myosh's explanation reminded me of where we were and that the camp we were going to wasn't that far south. I just remember it being an incredibly long drive and taking waaaaay longer than it should have, but that was because we hit snow and were stopped for well nearly two hours on I-80 east heading toward Donner Pass on the way back to Reno.

[jrouse]

Noticed that the CalNEXUS programs is either half-assed or half finished.  Some signs had exit numbers while others were devoid of them.  They're damned useless without proper mileposts. 

Most numbers are only being installed when signs are replaced due to being knocked down or because of a construction project.  As someone else noted, many exits in Los Angeles County are not numbered.  The portion of I-5 in Kern County from the 99 junction southward is well numbered.  Mileposts have been deemed to expensive to install, given the extensive amount of freeways we have here.  A couple of "test sections" of mileposts may be found on Route 58 near Mojave, and also on Route 14 north of Mojave.

Driving around Bakersfield was an adventure.  Every flipping left turn is protected only.  If there was a signal, the left had no permitted phase.  Rather silly, IMHO.  If it's clear, then you should be able to go. 

California is the home of the protected left turn.  Very few urban areas have permissive left turns.  Los Angeles has quite a few, but it seems like they are just about the only city that does. 

The revenue..er..red light cameras have no advance warning signs (required in Illinois).

There is supposed to be a regulatory sign at the major entry points to each city that uses red light cameras.  This sign shows a graphic of a signal and the words "PHOTO ENFORCED".

One thing I noticed about California, as compared to the Midwest, is that population seems every concentrated.  You have one place with a lot of people, and then miles upon miles of nothing in between.  Here, people seem a bit more spread out.

But even where the population is concentrated, it's not very dense.  San Francisco is about the only place where the density is high.  It's also why transit works far better there than any place else in California.

What is the point of the border patrol crappola..er..station north of San Diego?  All it seemed to do was stop up traffic for no really good reason.

You'll find one of those on every major route leaving San Diego. 

A few other observations: Jake, I'm sorry, but those old button copy signs have got to go.  They're completely illegible at night.  Dangerously illegible.  I couldn't discern even with the lights shining on them.  CalTrans needs mileposts in the worst way, and needs to add signage letting folks know where the next exit is.  They also need more services signage between LA and San Diego.  Had to guess at an exit for a gas station in Carlsbad and got lucky.  IMHO, CalTrans is way behind the times and needs to catchup to where the Midwest is.  It's hard to believe they were an innovator at one time.  I do; however, like the separate truck lanes at major interchanges.  It's a good idea; would not mind seeing it implemented here, especially along I-80.

I agree that our button copy signs are pretty bad, particularly when they are not lit.  There are just so many of them out there that it will take years to get rid of them all.

Other people have already commented on the use of signing identifying the distance to the next exit.  The Caltrans district in the San Francisco Bay Area is good at identifying the next exit and the distance to it at each offramp.   The district that covers Sacramento is starting to get into the practice of using both the "exit sequence" signs (the G23(CA) sign) as well as the signs identifying the next exit and the distance (the G83(CA) sign).  In Southern California they seem to depend heavily on the G23(CA) signs. 

As for the services signing, unfortunately, those signs can only be used in rural areas, and not on urban freeways.

It would be interesting to get your take on northern California freeways, if you ever get up that way. 

[AsphaltPlanet]

I went on a driving vacation with a friend of mine through Southern California (centred around L.A.) a few years ago.  I found driving in Cali to be a lot of fun.  The freeways are pretty cool, though a lot of them are pretty beaten up.  I love the button copy signage, though a lot of it probably should be replaced.  Button copy is, however, one of those things that is distinctly Californian.

Some of the mountain roads in eastern San Bernardino and San Diego Counties are amazing.  I attempted Hwy 173 with a rented Toyota Camry.  I made it about halfway down the mountain before reality set in, and I turned around and drove back to Lake Arrowhead.


Aside from the awesome LA freeways, I think my favourite drive was CA-78 from Julian easterly into Imperial County.  Beautiful scenery, and you could fly down that road (even in a gutless Camry).

I put a little California Roads page up on my site after my vacation.  I am actually working on a Hollywood Freeway page for it as I write this.  If you can handle Canadian spellings, and frequent references to the metric system, check it out:
http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/CA/

[Brandon]

I went on a driving vacation with a friend of mine through Southern California (centred around L.A.) a few years ago.  I found driving in Cali to be a lot of fun.  The freeways are pretty cool, though a lot of them are pretty beaten up.  I love the button copy signage, though a lot of it probably should be replaced.  Button copy is, however, one of those things that is distinctly Californian.

Button copy is not distinctly Californian.  Indiana and Ohio were big users of it, as was IDOT (IL) District 1 in the 1980s and 1990s.  The main difference, I found, is that we tend to use reflectorized backgrounds that allow for easier, IMHO, reading of the signs.

[AsphaltPlanet]

Sure, every state used button copy at one point or another, but no state still has the distinct (read: old) signage stock that California does.

[Brandon]

Sure, every state used button copy at one point or another, but no state still has the distinct (read: old) signage stock that California does.

True, but that stems more from neglect and lack of replacement than anything else.  I'd say, and this may sting a bit, that the neglect is distinctly Californian.

[flowmotion]

In some areas, Caltrans redone the most of the signage, but they inevitably miss a few old button copy signs here and there. (Perhaps their inventory records are incomplete?)

Another thing I've noticed about the SF Bay Area is that Caltrans generally avoids using Big Green Signs for major interchanges until you are right up on the junction. Other states will usually have a BGS a mile or so ahead, especially if there is dedicated lanes. I've been with a number of people who missed their exit in unfamiliar areas, and I suspect it's somewhat due to the lack of signing.

[TheStranger]

Another thing I've noticed about the SF Bay Area is that Caltrans generally avoids using Big Green Signs for major interchanges until you are right up on the junction. Other states will usually have a BGS a mile or so ahead, especially if there is dedicated lanes. I've been with a number of people who missed their exit in unfamiliar areas, and I suspect it's somewhat due to the lack of signing.

Hmm, examples?  The signage for I-80 isn't the greatest off of US 101 north past Army Street, but it is there.  (Honestly, just like the distance-to-major-junction signs on I-280 south in Santa Clara County, the Skyway/Central Freeway split where 80 begins really should be signed as far south as the 3rd Street exit.)

I recall plenty of signage for the 880/580 ramps from 80 east and west towards the MacArthur Maze

There's the awkward "US 101 San Jose/Golden Gate Bridge" signage on I-80 west after the Bay Bridge (when in the 1980s I-80 had been on the BGSes, as opposed to only one reassurance shield now).  I actually got confused several weeks ago in SF along 4th Street for the exact opposite reason: ramp for I-80 west to US 101 south was marked as US 101 south on BGS, but an I-80 (not I-80 to US 101) shield only at the Freeway Entrance assembly, so I ended up taking 280 south instead when I could've used that ramp and been fine.

The US 101/Route 1 split in the Presidio isn't signed all that well going southbound at all, and historically wasn't northbound along Doyle Drive (though this might change once the modern limited-access Presidio Parkway is completed and replaces the original Doyle structure).