NY 17 / I-86 Conversion Resurrected?

[Rothman]

All I'll say is that despite my multiple, recent rants about the NY 17/I-86 conversion being dead in the water for the foreseeable future, just yesterday I believe that there were signs that the dust is being blown off the old plans for current consideration.

As someone pointed out, nothing is STIPped, but I believe mumblings have begun.

(personal opinion expressed)

[mvak36]

Good news indeed. Hopefully it comes true 

[dgolub]

All I'll say is that despite my multiple, recent rants about the NY 17/I-86 conversion being dead in the water for the foreseeable future, just yesterday I believe that there were signs that the dust is being blown off the old plans for current consideration.

I think I missed this.  Why was it believed to be dead?

[TravelingBethelite]

Relevant, taken about 5-6 weeks ago on I-84 west:







I am not sure if the cover on the panel in the third picture as been taken down yet. I would assume it has, but don't quote me on that. On I go. 

[vdeane]

Are they taking the covers off the signs there finally?  There have been covered I-86 shields from I-84 to NY 17K for years now.

All I'll say is that despite my multiple, recent rants about the NY 17/I-86 conversion being dead in the water for the foreseeable future, just yesterday I believe that there were signs that the dust is being blown off the old plans for current consideration.

I think I missed this.  Why was it believed to be dead?

At some point, every single conversion project not already in progress except Prospect Mountain Phase II got cancelled.

[Rothman]

Are they taking the covers off the signs there finally?  There have been covered I-86 shields from I-84 to NY 17K for years now.

All I'll say is that despite my multiple, recent rants about the NY 17/I-86 conversion being dead in the water for the foreseeable future, just yesterday I believe that there were signs that the dust is being blown off the old plans for current consideration.

I think I missed this.  Why was it believed to be dead?

At some point, every single conversion project not already in progress except Prospect Mountain Phase II got cancelled.

^This.  Most I-86 conversion projects, especially those in Region 8, were put on hold indefinitely a few years ago, actually.

One great legend is when a former NYSDOT commissioner took a trip down NY 17 (back when Parksville was still under construction, I believe) and let "Why are we doing this again?" come out of her mouth.  In other words, the political will to spend so much money on the total conversion of NY 17 into I-86 was no longer there.  The benefits just could not outweigh the fact that NY had so many other needs in the state and limited funds to keep conditions from declining faster (NYSDOT still can't keep up with the decline).  So, the decision was made at one point to make NY 17 "look like an Interstate" and the Parksville project in particular was really the last knell of the effort, despite the fact that there was acceptance that Prospect Mountain would have to be done (especially after Phase I...couldn't leave it in the condition it was in after the first phase).

In fact, I'd argue that NYSDOT traded the funding that was set for the conversion to go towards all sorts of other priorities more geared towards preservation (e.g., NY 347 and Utica N-S Arterial, amongst others).

So, for the past few years, I-86 conversion has essentially been dead.  Yesterday was shockingly the first rumblings I had heard about it in literally years and getting the effort restarted would represent a 180° turn from where NYSDOT has been on the conversion for quite a while now.

Still, I wouldn't get anyone's hopes up too much, though.  Reality might snap back into place when people really start looking at the price tags and Region 11 comes a-running with $2-$3B of urgent bridge rehabs to be done.

(personal opinion expressed)

[mvak36]

Are they taking the covers off the signs there finally?  There have been covered I-86 shields from I-84 to NY 17K for years now.

All I'll say is that despite my multiple, recent rants about the NY 17/I-86 conversion being dead in the water for the foreseeable future, just yesterday I believe that there were signs that the dust is being blown off the old plans for current consideration.

I think I missed this.  Why was it believed to be dead?

At some point, every single conversion project not already in progress except Prospect Mountain Phase II got cancelled.

^This.  Most I-86 conversion projects, especially those in Region 8, were put on hold indefinitely a few years ago, actually.

One great legend is when a former NYSDOT commissioner took a trip down NY 17 (back when Parksville was still under construction, I believe) and let "Why are we doing this again?" come out of her mouth.  In other words, the political will to spend so much money on the total conversion of NY 17 into I-86 was no longer there.  The benefits just could not outweigh the fact that NY had so many other needs in the state and limited funds to keep conditions from declining faster (NYSDOT still can't keep up with the decline).  So, the decision was made at one point to make NY 17 "look like an Interstate" and the Parksville project in particular was really the last knell of the effort, despite the fact that there was acceptance that Prospect Mountain would have to be done (especially after Phase I...couldn't leave it in the condition it was in after the first phase).

In fact, I'd argue that NYSDOT traded the funding that was set for the conversion to go towards all sorts of other priorities more geared towards preservation (e.g., NY 347 and Utica N-S Arterial, amongst others).

So, for the past few years, I-86 conversion has essentially been dead.  Yesterday was shockingly the first rumblings I had heard about it in literally years and getting the effort restarted would represent a 180° turn from where NYSDOT has been on the conversion for quite a while now.

Still, I wouldn't get anyone's hopes up too much, though.  Reality might snap back into place when people really start looking at the price tags and Region 11 comes a-running with $2-$3B of urgent bridge rehabs to be done.

(personal opinion expressed)

Just curious, how many miles do they have left to convert to interstate standards? I imagine it would be quite a bit.

[Buffaboy]

Are they taking the covers off the signs there finally?  There have been covered I-86 shields from I-84 to NY 17K for years now.

All I'll say is that despite my multiple, recent rants about the NY 17/I-86 conversion being dead in the water for the foreseeable future, just yesterday I believe that there were signs that the dust is being blown off the old plans for current consideration.

I think I missed this.  Why was it believed to be dead?

At some point, every single conversion project not already in progress except Prospect Mountain Phase II got cancelled.

^This.  Most I-86 conversion projects, especially those in Region 8, were put on hold indefinitely a few years ago, actually.

One great legend is when a former NYSDOT commissioner took a trip down NY 17 (back when Parksville was still under construction, I believe) and let "Why are we doing this again?" come out of her mouth.  In other words, the political will to spend so much money on the total conversion of NY 17 into I-86 was no longer there.  The benefits just could not outweigh the fact that NY had so many other needs in the state and limited funds to keep conditions from declining faster (NYSDOT still can't keep up with the decline).  So, the decision was made at one point to make NY 17 "look like an Interstate" and the Parksville project in particular was really the last knell of the effort, despite the fact that there was acceptance that Prospect Mountain would have to be done (especially after Phase I...couldn't leave it in the condition it was in after the first phase).

In fact, I'd argue that NYSDOT traded the funding that was set for the conversion to go towards all sorts of other priorities more geared towards preservation (e.g., NY 347 and Utica N-S Arterial, amongst others).

So, for the past few years, I-86 conversion has essentially been dead.  Yesterday was shockingly the first rumblings I had heard about it in literally years and getting the effort restarted would represent a 180° turn from where NYSDOT has been on the conversion for quite a while now.

Still, I wouldn't get anyone's hopes up too much, though.  Reality might snap back into place when people really start looking at the price tags and Region 11 comes a-running with $2-$3B of urgent bridge rehabs to be done.

(personal opinion expressed)

I hope that happens when they start converting NY 198 into a parkway.

[The Ghostbuster]

The NY 17-Interstate 86 conversion should have been completed by now. The portion between Exits 84 and 87 should not be canceled, and money should be found to complete the process.

[AMLNet49]

The way the road is now is very confusing to anyone not from the area (which is who signage is geared towards). It is singed in some spots as I-86 and some as NY-17, some as both, and some signed as only one when it should be signed as both.

What NYSDOT should do (if they don't complete the conversion) is either pretend it is an Interstate but using Future shields where necessary (are you allowed to use "Future" shield in guide signage?) or alternatively just designate all of the non-interstate portions as NY-86 (the current route 86 could be changed to something else), so that the road has one continuous number.

[Alps]

The way the road is now is very confusing to anyone not from the area (which is who signage is geared towards). It is singed in some spots as I-86 and some as NY-17, some as both, and some signed as only one when it should be signed as both.

What NYSDOT should do (if they don't complete the conversion) is either pretend it is an Interstate but using Future shields where necessary (are you allowed to use "Future" shield in guide signage?) or alternatively just designate all of the non-interstate portions as NY-86 (the current route 86 could be changed to something else), so that the road has one continuous number.

If you're not allowed to use Future shields in guide signs, NCDOT has some serious 'splainin' to do.

[hbelkins]

If you're not allowed to use Future shields in guide signs, NCDOT has some serious 'splainin' to do.

Does North Carolina use the "Future I-xx" markers on guide signs, or only on ground mounted assemblies? I've seen plenty of the latter (especially I-26) but not sure about the former.

Besides eliminating the at-grades in a couple of sections, what has to be done to get NY 17 up to interstate standards? It doesn't have the "toll booth cloverleaf" interchanges to convert like Kentucky did on the Pennyrile and Purchase parkways to get I-69 designated. I don't remember the freeway portion of NY 17 between Middletown and Binghamton having anything that didn't resemble an interstate. Of course I say the same thing about Kentucky's parkways, too.

[Alps]

If you're not allowed to use Future shields in guide signs, NCDOT has some serious 'splainin' to do.

Does North Carolina use the "Future I-xx" markers on guide signs, or only on ground mounted assemblies? I've seen plenty of the latter (especially I-26) but not sure about the former.

Besides eliminating the at-grades in a couple of sections, what has to be done to get NY 17 up to interstate standards? It doesn't have the "toll booth cloverleaf" interchanges to convert like Kentucky did on the Pennyrile and Purchase parkways to get I-69 designated. I don't remember the freeway portion of NY 17 between Middletown and Binghamton having anything that didn't resemble an interstate. Of course I say the same thing about Kentucky's parkways, too.

I've seen them on ground-mounted guide signs, i.e. on a green background. Can't say I've seen them overhead.

[noelbotevera]

There's literally not much left to do. How did all that political will burn so quickly?

[Duke87]

There's literally not much left to do. How did all that political will burn so quickly?

There's more left to do than you might think. The aforementioned Hale Eddy section (between exits 84 and 87) is currently the biggest problem since there are intersections and driveways for several miles there, and the terrain is rather mountainous. It would be difficult and expensive to eliminate all of them along the existing alignment and probably even more difficult and expensive to bypass. All for a section of road which is fairly lightly used, since if you want to get from Binghamton to NYC, 81/380/80 is faster than 17, with or without a full interstate conversion of the latter. For this segment in particular I would echo the "why are we doing this again?" sentiment. There is nothing functionally wrong with the road as it exists, no sense in throwing ridiculous sums of money at it just so it can carry a special red white and blue shield.

The RIRO at exit 111 is another noticeable item that would need fixing. As is the lack of a median barrier on much of the hill near Wurtsboro (this should be fixed regardless since it's a safety matter). Beyond that, there's all sorts of various humdrum - shoulders of substandard width, steep grades on ramps, etc.


In terms of how to handle the designation problem, I'd abort any attempts to convert 17 east of Binghamton and have I-86 consume I-88 to end in Schenectady. Existing I-86 for a few miles east of I-81 can become "secret" I-181 for the sake of keeping it in the interstate system since it already is. Beyond that, forget it.

[english si]

Beyond that, forget it.

No designation for the eastern end? I-87 to I-84 would make a decent signed 3di that is probably worth the small amount of remaining upgrades.

[Rothman]

I'll check the entire list of projects when I get back to work on Monday, but although the big projects have been mentioned, there is a lot more left to do than people think in the plan to appease FHWA to get designation all the way between Region 6 and I-87.

Again, nothing is set in stone at this point.  Just struck me as really odd that people were looking back into the conversion when, like I've said, NYSDOT has redirected a lot of the funds towards much more urgent projects.

[Rothman]

There's literally not much left to do. How did all that political will burn so quickly?

Beyond that, forget it.

No designation for the eastern end? I-87 to I-84 would make a decent signed 3di that is probably worth the small amount of remaining upgrades.

It is by no means a small amount.  If anything, Region 8 has the bulk of the remaining work to be done.  Like I said above, I'll check it out on Monday.

[Mapmikey]

Does North Carolina use the "Future I-xx" markers on guide signs, or only on ground mounted assemblies? I've seen plenty of the latter (especially I-26) but not sure about the former.

Here is FUTURE I-295 on a guide sign before they went to using NC 295 shields - https://goo.gl/maps/KucyUZiqKZ82

Here is an I-26 with no banner but a ground level FUTURE shield next to it...  - https://goo.gl/maps/jo8fgLVf6Vk

Here is a different way they did I-26 - https://goo.gl/maps/Kj5HnzSEVfv

Here is one with I-74 - https://goo.gl/maps/SeNMUaMgc9N2

Mike

[jp the roadgeek]

17 between 84 and 87 has been pretty much up to interstate standards for years.  At least that portion should receive the I-86 designation, if not even as far as US 209.

[NJRoadfan]

Exit 111 is an easy fix, just close it with some guardrail until the money to upgrade it comes along

[cl94]

As for those I-86 signs in Middletown, Region 8 has pretty much upgraded NY 17 in Orange County west of I-84. The plan was to sign it in that section. I don't know what became of that.

17 between 84 and 87 has been pretty much up to interstate standards for years.  At least that portion should receive the I-86 designation, if not even as far as US 209.

Mostly, but not completely. A couple of the exits are substandard.

Exit 111 is an easy fix, just close it with some guardrail until the money to upgrade it comes along

NYSDOT has been trying to do that. There are a few individuals (mainly the person who owns the gas station at that exit) who keep blocking it.

I'll check the entire list of projects when I get back to work on Monday, but although the big projects have been mentioned, there is a lot more left to do than people think in the plan to appease FHWA to get designation all the way between Region 6 and I-87.

Agree completely. Most of the stuff west of Binghamton is being done (because there isn't much left). FHWA also isn't allowing nearly as much grandfathering as they used to. A lot of stuff has to meet current standards. The substandard portions are also in key locations. At a quick glance, here are notable locations that are substandard:

-Hale Eddy
-Exit 90 (NY 30)
-Exit 93
-Exit 108 (practically a RIRO)
-Exit 109
-Exit 111 (the RIRO)
-Exit 125 (practically a RIRO, should probably be closed as Exit 124 is immediately adjacent)
-Exit 128 (namely the EB entrance ramp)

As a major route must be a temporary terminus, I can tell immediately that the section between the current ET and US 209 cannot be signed due to substandard conditions. There's probably a ton of stuff I couldn't quickly pick up from a satellite.

I certainly don't expect any major realignments to the expressway itself on the 55 section outside of Hale Eddy. I think that would qualify for the "mountainous terrain" exemption for a lower design speed.

[Rothman]

17 between 84 and 87 has been pretty much up to interstate standards for years.  At least that portion should receive the I-86 designation, if not even as far as US 209.

I believe there's a significant issue where 17 comes into I-87 at Woodbury Common.  Because that connection is not up to standard, the interstate designation cannot be given from I-87 westward.  Otherwise, it would have been already designated, I bet (given the I-86 portion east of Binghamton).

[Alps]

17 between 84 and 87 has been pretty much up to interstate standards for years.  At least that portion should receive the I-86 designation, if not even as far as US 209.

I believe there's a significant issue where 17 comes into I-87 at Woodbury Common.  Because that connection is not up to standard, the interstate designation cannot be given from I-87 westward.  Otherwise, it would have been already designated, I bet (given the I-86 portion east of Binghamton).

That doesn't sound right to me. Besides, that's getting fixed with the NYSTA project at Woodbury/Harriman.

[hbelkins]

I've seen them on ground-mounted guide signs, i.e. on a green background. Can't say I've seen them overhead.

Kentucky's done that too for I-66 and I-69.