ESPN: Raiders Moving to Las Vegas

[cl94]

From ESPN: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/17834575/owner-mark-davis-says-city-dropped-ball-keeping-oakland-raiders

Raiders owner Mark Davis could not have been more clear about his intentions Wednesday, when he informed fellow owners that, barring an unexpected surprise, he plans in January to file papers to move his team from Oakland to Las Vegas, multiple sources told ESPN.

"Mark Davis said that he was committed to Las Vegas 100 percent, and that there were several market studies being done by the Raiders," said one source who was present when Davis made his presentation at the league meetings in Houston.

There appears to be growing support for Davis among some owners as he has made no progress with Oakland officials over the last few years and was given clearance to file for relocation to Los Angeles earlier this year, though he lost out to Rams owner Stan Kroenke. Also, Las Vegas has committed $750 million in public money toward building a new stadium, presumably near the Strip.

"I don't know what there is to say other than, 'Congrats, Raiders on getting the largest public subsidy ever and cleaning up our L.A. [mess]," another source familiar with the Raiders' presentation told ESPN. "They've busted their ass to get something done. I respect that. ... Once you've stepped up and produced something, you deserve better."

Barring this thing falling through or the owners unexpectedly blocking the move, we could see the second move in as many years.

[Max Rockatansky]

About time they get an NFL team out there.  L.A. doesn't deserve more than one team....we'll see if they can really hang onto the Rams down the line.

[Brandon]

So Las Vegas will get the NFL and the NHL.  There's still the NBA and MLB.

[jeffandnicole]

So Las Vegas will get the NFL and the NHL.  There's still the NBA and MLB.

I hope never for the MLB.

[Max Rockatansky]

So Las Vegas will get the NFL and the NHL.  There's still the NBA and MLB.

I hope never for the MLB.

Won't happen, MLB has too strong of an anti-gambling stance.

[jeffandnicole]

It's way too hot for an outdoor stadium, and I've yet to see an indoor stadium that offers any sort of enjoyable atmosphere.  Unlike football where noise can really mess with an opponent making a dome an asset (not to mention keeping the team out of freezing temps), baseball communication is mostly done by signals.

[Max Rockatansky]

It's way too hot for an outdoor stadium, and I've yet to see an indoor stadium that offers any sort of enjoyable atmosphere.  Unlike football where noise can really mess with an opponent making a dome an asset (not to mention keeping the team out of freezing temps), baseball communication is mostly done by signals.

Meh...just play the games at night.  I remember the Cardinals when they were in Sun Devil Stadium.  Most of their games were during the day and it never really bothered me unless it was over 110F.  Vegas is about 10-15F cooler than Phoenix on an average day and it's bone dry.

[Anthony_JK]

So...what does that do for the Chargers' chances to move out of San Diego and become Kroenke's stadium partner? Also, is Oakland now on the clock for a makeup franchise (maybe Jacksonville or even....horrors....New Orleans after Tom Benson's passing) like what Houston and Baltimore got after the Oilers/Titans and Colts bolted?

[cl94]

So...what does that do for the Chargers' chances to move out of San Diego and become Kroenke's stadium partner? Also, is Oakland now on the clock for a makeup franchise (maybe Jacksonville or even....horrors....New Orleans after Tom Benson's passing) like what Houston and Baltimore got after the Oilers/Titans and Colts bolted?

Baltimore is a special case because the Colts left in the middle of the night. Granted, the Ravens left Cleveland in a similar fashion. Oakland has shown zero desire to put up anything for a football team. Their only proposals have been to build a new baseball stadium with either the Raiders as a secondary tenant or have them play in a college stadium. That's not going to attract anyone.

[tdindy88]

An argument was made here recently that L.A. should only keep the one team, I would make the same for the Bay Area, one football team there (the 49ers.) I have no idea what the situation is like down in San Diego, but I would honestly like to see the Chargers stay there. A metropolitan area as large as San Diego should have two pro teams, if Las Vegas is going to have two as it likely will be. Provided the Chargers get an updated stadium deal at least. I never understood why L.A. should have two football teams if they couldn't keep the Raiders and the Rams for the time they had them. Leave them with one team and see how it goes.

[cl94]

I don't think the SF market can handle 2 NFL teams, either. As a base of comparison, the market for the Giants/Jets is at least twice as large. Heck, the Bills might have a larger market as it effectively includes the Toronto metro area. I expect San Diego to figure out a stadium deal there now that the Raiders have made leaving official.

[SP Cook]

If the people of Oakland are smart, they will spend the money saved by not building a new stadium on roads, hospitals, schools, and police.  Or cut taxes and allow those who earned the money to spend it on what they wish.

[jeffandnicole]

It's way too hot for an outdoor stadium, and I've yet to see an indoor stadium that offers any sort of enjoyable atmosphere.  Unlike football where noise can really mess with an opponent making a dome an asset (not to mention keeping the team out of freezing temps), baseball communication is mostly done by signals.

Meh...just play the games at night.  I remember the Cardinals when they were in Sun Devil Stadium.  Most of their games were during the day and it never really bothered me unless it was over 110F.  Vegas is about 10-15F cooler than Phoenix on an average day and it's bone dry.

Average highs are well over 100 in Vegas as well, approaching 115 - 120 degrees.  Even at 7pm, temps will still be a stifling 105 - 110.  And I don't care how low the humidity is, it's still fricken hot at that temperature.

All teams play at night during the week except for the occasional day game, so that's nothing unusual.  Even the Cubs try playing as many night games as possible.

[Max Rockatansky]

It's way too hot for an outdoor stadium, and I've yet to see an indoor stadium that offers any sort of enjoyable atmosphere.  Unlike football where noise can really mess with an opponent making a dome an asset (not to mention keeping the team out of freezing temps), baseball communication is mostly done by signals.

Meh...just play the games at night.  I remember the Cardinals when they were in Sun Devil Stadium.  Most of their games were during the day and it never really bothered me unless it was over 110F.  Vegas is about 10-15F cooler than Phoenix on an average day and it's bone dry.

Average highs are well over 100 in Vegas as well, approaching 115 - 120 degrees.  Even at 7pm, temps will still be a stifling 105 - 110.  And I don't care how low the humidity is, it's still fricken hot at that temperature.

All teams play at night during the week except for the occasional day game, so that's nothing unusual.  Even the Cubs try playing as many night games as possible.

I know, I lived there.  Fricken hot yes, stifling...meh not really.  An average 90F in Orlando or Tampa was way worse than a 110 F in Las Vegas.  The worst was a post-monsoon day in Phoenix since the humidity would linger for almost a full day at 50-70%. Not that I'm saying say in a hypothetical situation where a MLB went to Vegas that they wouldn't get a retractable dome.  They sure did one in Phoenix and you have a lot more tourists who aren't used to the blast furnace that wouldn't go otherwise. 

[jeffandnicole]

It's way too hot for an outdoor stadium, and I've yet to see an indoor stadium that offers any sort of enjoyable atmosphere.  Unlike football where noise can really mess with an opponent making a dome an asset (not to mention keeping the team out of freezing temps), baseball communication is mostly done by signals.

Meh...just play the games at night.  I remember the Cardinals when they were in Sun Devil Stadium.  Most of their games were during the day and it never really bothered me unless it was over 110F.  Vegas is about 10-15F cooler than Phoenix on an average day and it's bone dry.

Average highs are well over 100 in Vegas as well, approaching 115 - 120 degrees.  Even at 7pm, temps will still be a stifling 105 - 110.  And I don't care how low the humidity is, it's still fricken hot at that temperature.

All teams play at night during the week except for the occasional day game, so that's nothing unusual.  Even the Cubs try playing as many night games as possible.

I know, I lived there.  Fricken hot yes, stifling...meh not really.  An average 90F in Orlando or Tampa was way worse than a 110 F in Las Vegas.  The worst was a post-monsoon day in Phoenix since the humidity would linger for almost a full day at 50-70%. Not that I'm saying say in a hypothetical situation where a MLB went to Vegas that they wouldn't get a retractable dome.  They sure did one in Phoenix and you have a lot more tourists who aren't used to the blast furnace that wouldn't go otherwise. 

Arizona ranks 21st in average attendance.  Tampa Bay is dead last.  Your examples really aren't helping your argument.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance

[Max Rockatansky]

What argument?  I never said that an MLB team was ever going to Las Vegas.  All I ever said was that the heat in Nevada is a lot more tolerable than a humid climate in the south east.  At least to me that is....so am I arguing with myself to convince myself otherwise?  It sounds like your opinion is opposite of mine, that being the case that's fine to. 

NOW, what am I really surprised never got much traction in Las Vegas was an NBA team.  You'd think that with the big huge following UNLV had that it would be a natural fit.  Basketball is also almost always played at during the evening hours which fits right with when most tourists out gambling like to be out.

[SP Cook]

I spend way too much time in LV, and plan to retire there in a few years. 

The economics of the 4 major sports are different. 

The NFL is, for want of a better word, socialist.  National TV contract covers all the games and the teams share the TV money equally, as they do most liscensing and sponsorships.  That is why there can be a team in a small town in Wisconsin.  LV can have a team, SFO can have 2, whatever.  They could put a team in Missoula and it would work.

MLB is the exact opposite.  The national TV contract is just the playoffs and a couple of random games per week.  The big TV money is in the local TV deals, and the live gate matters.  Clark County is 2 million people, but that is it.  The only other part of Nevada with people is still much closer to SFO and would retain that loyality in TV teams and certainly are not going to drive 450 miles to games, and the rest is just sand and oddballs.  And it is 81 games, played every day of the week, contasted to 8 football games, mostly played on Sunday afternoons.  Remember that LV, due to the nature of the local main industry, certainly has the largest proportion of people who work odd shifts.

The two arena sports are a much easier sell.  Those games are naturally played indoors anyway, and a great crowd is less than half what a baseball game would need to say the same.  And it is only half as many games.  As between the NBA and NHL, the NBA had the strippers and drugs party that ended up in a shootout when it played the ASG there, and it is not going back.  The NHL is a different deal and will do well.  One thing they are doing is marketing towards the visiting teams.  That will work, because a mid-winter trip to LV for a few days, catch your hockey team play and the do other LV stuff will be an easy sell in cold weather cities.  And the NHL has far better demographics (wealthier fans) than the NBA.

The only other thing I would say about LV is that everybody is from someplace else.  And probably the majority is from the northeast or midwest, which is why the NHL is a good choice.  Even people born there think of where their parents were from as "back home".  And they mostly retain sports loyalities based on that.  It is that kind of place.  South Florida is similar, but LV is way more than that even. 

[Desert Man]

Interesting: the Raiders founded in Minneapolis-st. Paul (never played there), went to Oakland, then LA, returned to Oakland and now headed to Vegas. And the other LA team the Rams, began in Cleveland (someone told me in a sports bar about Baltimore), moved to LA (also Anaheim stadium), briefly in St Louis and again in LA. And who knows the Chargers after their first year in LA may abandon San Diego for a new site in the LA metro area (Inglewood or Carson).

I like to see a second professional American Football League to fill the voids of St Louis, Oakland and San Diego, grant teams in Birmingham, OK City or Tulsa, Orlando and Toronto (Buffalo keeps its storied Bills). A team in the Chicago metro area is a good idea, then in Omaha and Connecticut (Hartford or New Haven?), and finally, San Antonio and El Paso on the Mexican border.

And not only the NHL, Vegas has the NFL and seeks the NBA. They might not be the best site for MLB nor MLS (a smaller league). This desert resort city and metro area has grow 100x since 1950, technically another LA, Phoenix and SF (rapid post-WW2 sunbelt suburbanization). They can now handle the Raiders, the NHL and future NBA prospects...and perfect fit for the AFC West division.   

[cl94]

Having an NFL team in Vegas makes sense because, as people have already mentioned, fans of other teams will just plan their Vegas vacations around the game. Build a football-themed casino resort owned by the team, offer vacation packages including game tickets and they'll get tons of people.

[The Nature Boy]

Having an NFL team in Vegas makes sense because, as people have already mentioned, fans of other teams will just plan their Vegas vacations around the game. Build a football-themed casino resort owned by the team, offer vacation packages including game tickets and they'll get tons of people.

I feel like this might be a bit of a long term problem though. It's a magnification of the problems faced by any Sun Belt expansion team, people generally already have allegiances and it's more difficult to establish a local base of support. You don't want a team where every home game is basically an away game.

[jeffandnicole]

Having an NFL team in Vegas makes sense because, as people have already mentioned, fans of other teams will just plan their Vegas vacations around the game. Build a football-themed casino resort owned by the team, offer vacation packages including game tickets and they'll get tons of people.

I feel like this might be a bit of a long term problem though. It's a magnification of the problems faced by any Sun Belt expansion team, people generally already have allegiances and it's more difficult to establish a local base of support. You don't want a team where every home game is basically an away game.

And while some people will travel for an away game, it happens less often than people realize.  Unlike in some college football stadiums where there's entire sections dedicated to the opposing team's fans, in the NFL the home team's fans fill up the entire stadium, and the opposing fans are generally scattered about.   While there may be some people that'll travel for an away game, and Vegas is an ideal trip for that, don't expect too many fans to do that.

[Max Rockatansky]

Having an NFL team in Vegas makes sense because, as people have already mentioned, fans of other teams will just plan their Vegas vacations around the game. Build a football-themed casino resort owned by the team, offer vacation packages including game tickets and they'll get tons of people.

I feel like this might be a bit of a long term problem though. It's a magnification of the problems faced by any Sun Belt expansion team, people generally already have allegiances and it's more difficult to establish a local base of support. You don't want a team where every home game is basically an away game.

As long as butts are in the seats does it really matter?  That's how a lot of Phoenix sports teams got by for years on ticket sales.  You'd have a huge following from the opposing team that would buy up a chunk of the unsold tickets whether they were local residents or just people on vacation.  Back when the Lions and Cardinals were really bad they would basically play each other in Arizona every other year.  I would speculate one third of the stadium was Detroit fans.  You'd think that would be a huge thing in Las Vegas with people coming in from out of town or just among the crowd that moved Vegas.

[The Nature Boy]

Having an NFL team in Vegas makes sense because, as people have already mentioned, fans of other teams will just plan their Vegas vacations around the game. Build a football-themed casino resort owned by the team, offer vacation packages including game tickets and they'll get tons of people.

I feel like this might be a bit of a long term problem though. It's a magnification of the problems faced by any Sun Belt expansion team, people generally already have allegiances and it's more difficult to establish a local base of support. You don't want a team where every home game is basically an away game.

As long as butts are in the seats does it really matter?  That's how a lot of Phoenix sports teams got by for years on ticket sales.  You'd have a huge following from the opposing team that would buy up a chunk of the unsold tickets whether they were local residents or just people on vacation.  Back when the Lions and Cardinals were really bad they would basically play each other in Arizona every other year.  I would speculate one third of the stadium was Detroit fans.  You'd think that would be a huge thing in Las Vegas with people coming in from out of town or just among the crowd that moved Vegas.

Merch sales are a big one and there is actually a psychological advance to having a home crowd that actually cheers for you (the Seahawks understand this one very well). If you want a terrible team that just acts as a way for transplants to see their favorite teams, this model works.

[Max Rockatansky]

Having an NFL team in Vegas makes sense because, as people have already mentioned, fans of other teams will just plan their Vegas vacations around the game. Build a football-themed casino resort owned by the team, offer vacation packages including game tickets and they'll get tons of people.

I feel like this might be a bit of a long term problem though. It's a magnification of the problems faced by any Sun Belt expansion team, people generally already have allegiances and it's more difficult to establish a local base of support. You don't want a team where every home game is basically an away game.

As long as butts are in the seats does it really matter?  That's how a lot of Phoenix sports teams got by for years on ticket sales.  You'd have a huge following from the opposing team that would buy up a chunk of the unsold tickets whether they were local residents or just people on vacation.  Back when the Lions and Cardinals were really bad they would basically play each other in Arizona every other year.  I would speculate one third of the stadium was Detroit fans.  You'd think that would be a huge thing in Las Vegas with people coming in from out of town or just among the crowd that moved Vegas.

Merch sales are a big one and there is actually a psychological advance to having a home crowd that actually cheers for you (the Seahawks under this one very well). If you want a terrible team that just acts as a way for transplants to see their favorite teams, this model works.

Which is basically how things worked in Phoenix until the local fan-base figured out the Bidwells had been historic cheap-skates and basically started to refused the follow the team.  Surprisingly that seemed to got their attention or at minimum they got Kurt Warner when it looked like he was finished.  Now the team has a pretty decent following...used to be a total Denver Broncos town. 

[The Nature Boy]

Having an NFL team in Vegas makes sense because, as people have already mentioned, fans of other teams will just plan their Vegas vacations around the game. Build a football-themed casino resort owned by the team, offer vacation packages including game tickets and they'll get tons of people.

I feel like this might be a bit of a long term problem though. It's a magnification of the problems faced by any Sun Belt expansion team, people generally already have allegiances and it's more difficult to establish a local base of support. You don't want a team where every home game is basically an away game.

As long as butts are in the seats does it really matter?  That's how a lot of Phoenix sports teams got by for years on ticket sales.  You'd have a huge following from the opposing team that would buy up a chunk of the unsold tickets whether they were local residents or just people on vacation.  Back when the Lions and Cardinals were really bad they would basically play each other in Arizona every other year.  I would speculate one third of the stadium was Detroit fans.  You'd think that would be a huge thing in Las Vegas with people coming in from out of town or just among the crowd that moved Vegas.

Merch sales are a big one and there is actually a psychological advance to having a home crowd that actually cheers for you (the Seahawks under this one very well). If you want a terrible team that just acts as a way for transplants to see their favorite teams, this model works.

Which is basically how things worked in Phoenix until the local fan-base figured out the Bidwells had been historic cheap-skates and basically started to refused the follow the team.  Surprisingly that seemed to got their attention or at minimum they got Kurt Warner when it looked like he was finished.  Now the team has a pretty decent following...used to be a total Denver Broncos town.

If a Las Vegas team would be fine with that then that's fine.

The Raiders may have some advantage in getting local traction since they're already a known commodity.