Confusing Concurrencies

[kphoger]

You'd think US41 would be the direct route to Marquette and US141 would be an auxiliary branch winding around to the east.  NOPE

Just so you know US 41 is the direct route to Marquette from Green Bay. US 141 doesn't come within 50 miles of Marquette.

The thing that gets me about US 41 in Michigan is that it takes an inland route instead of hugging the water which is what M-35 does. It seems like US 41 should run along the water and M-35 should be the inland route.

US-41 was already an established route.  That section of M-35 wasn't designated until four years after US-41.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

plus wasn't 41 originally supposed to run a more direct route to Marquette which was axed?

[kphoger]

You'd think US41 would be the direct route to Marquette and US141 would be an auxiliary branch winding around to the east.  NOPE

Just so you know US 41 is the direct route to Marquette from Green Bay. US 141 doesn't come within 50 miles of Marquette.

The thing that gets me about US 41 in Michigan is that it takes an inland route instead of hugging the water which is what M-35 does. It seems like US 41 should run along the water and M-35 should be the inland route.

US-41 was already an established route.  That section of M-35 wasn't designated until four years after US-41.

plus wasn't 41 originally supposed to run a more direct route to Marquette which was axed?

Yep, north of Powers, it would have gone directly north to Marquette, but that didn't happen.

The map below is from 1926.  From Menominee to Powers the route is correct, but the path north from that point never came into existence.  M-35 from Menominee to Escanaba wasn't designated until 1930.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

Any concurrency where one route goes North and the other South and vice-versa, or one East and the other West and vice-versa.

[Flint1979]

You'd think US41 would be the direct route to Marquette and US141 would be an auxiliary branch winding around to the east.  NOPE

Just so you know US 41 is the direct route to Marquette from Green Bay. US 141 doesn't come within 50 miles of Marquette.

The thing that gets me about US 41 in Michigan is that it takes an inland route instead of hugging the water which is what M-35 does. It seems like US 41 should run along the water and M-35 should be the inland route.

US-41 was already an established route.  That section of M-35 wasn't designated until four years after US-41.

That should have been an obvious change in routing. US 41 between Menominee and Powers was originally M-15 and I don't think M-35's stretch between Escanaba and Menominee is much different in design than US 41 between Escanaba and Menominee.  Under AASHTO guidelines, US Highways are to follow the most direct path between two locations which is not the case here.

[paulthemapguy]

Also, speaking of US41 and US141...the concurrency is completely unnecessary!  US141 doesn't continue to the south at all, so just end it at Abrams!  Same with I-41 south of Milwaukee.  What the hell are you thinking, Wisconsin!?  It's like they know they have a reputation as The Concurrency State and they're trying super-hard to live up to it. 

[Flint1979]

plus wasn't 41 originally supposed to run a more direct route to Marquette which was axed?

Yes that would be north of Powers where US 41 turns to go towards Escanaba instead it would have connected using several county roads and most likely up current M-553.

US 41 must have to go through Marquette though since it is not the most direct route to the Keweenaw Peninsula, it runs east and west for about 50 miles between Marquette and the northern terminus of US 141 multiplexed with M-28. I really think US 41 spends more time doing east and west jogs in Michigan than it does running north and south.

[kphoger]

You'd think US41 would be the direct route to Marquette and US141 would be an auxiliary branch winding around to the east.  NOPE

Just so you know US 41 is the direct route to Marquette from Green Bay. US 141 doesn't come within 50 miles of Marquette.

The thing that gets me about US 41 in Michigan is that it takes an inland route instead of hugging the water which is what M-35 does. It seems like US 41 should run along the water and M-35 should be the inland route.

US-41 was already an established route.  That section of M-35 wasn't designated until four years after US-41.

That should have been an obvious change in routing. US 41 between Menominee and Powers was originally M-15 and I don't think M-35's stretch between Escanaba and Menominee is much different in design than US 41 between Escanaba and Menominee.  Under AASHTO guidelines, US Highways are to follow the most direct path between two locations which is not the case here.

To what scale is that guidance?  Between every little town?  Between major cities?  Something in between?  I'm curious to know how that's worded, and also how closely it's followed.

(ps – US-101 sure doesn't follow the shortest route from Aberdeen to Olympia.)

[hotdogPi]

You'd think US41 would be the direct route to Marquette and US141 would be an auxiliary branch winding around to the east.  NOPE

Just so you know US 41 is the direct route to Marquette from Green Bay. US 141 doesn't come within 50 miles of Marquette.

The thing that gets me about US 41 in Michigan is that it takes an inland route instead of hugging the water which is what M-35 does. It seems like US 41 should run along the water and M-35 should be the inland route.

US-41 was already an established route.  That section of M-35 wasn't designated until four years after US-41.

That should have been an obvious change in routing. US 41 between Menominee and Powers was originally M-15 and I don't think M-35's stretch between Escanaba and Menominee is much different in design than US 41 between Escanaba and Menominee.  Under AASHTO guidelines, US Highways are to follow the most direct path between two locations which is not the case here.

To what scale is that guidance?  Between every little town?  Between major cities?  Something in between?  I'm curious to know how that's worded, and also how closely it's followed.

(ps – US-101 sure doesn't follow the shortest route from Aberdeen to Olympia.)

It's generally followed, but there are exceptions, like US 1 following the coast in CT and RI instead of going inland, US 4 having a shortcut using NY 7/VT 9/NH 9, US 101 as mentioned, and the ridiculous US 311.

NE2 made a thread about all indirect 2-digit US routes, but I can't find it.

[Flint1979]

You'd think US41 would be the direct route to Marquette and US141 would be an auxiliary branch winding around to the east.  NOPE

Just so you know US 41 is the direct route to Marquette from Green Bay. US 141 doesn't come within 50 miles of Marquette.

The thing that gets me about US 41 in Michigan is that it takes an inland route instead of hugging the water which is what M-35 does. It seems like US 41 should run along the water and M-35 should be the inland route.

US-41 was already an established route.  That section of M-35 wasn't designated until four years after US-41.

That should have been an obvious change in routing. US 41 between Menominee and Powers was originally M-15 and I don't think M-35's stretch between Escanaba and Menominee is much different in design than US 41 between Escanaba and Menominee.  Under AASHTO guidelines, US Highways are to follow the most direct path between two locations which is not the case here.

To what scale is that guidance?  Between every little town?  Between major cities?  Something in between?  I'm curious to know how that's worded, and also how closely it's followed.

(ps – US-101 sure doesn't follow the shortest route from Aberdeen to Olympia.)

I would guess that it should follow it's guidelines wherever possible. M-35 has a strange history anyway it as originally suppose to go through the Huron Mountains and run to Ontonagon but those plans were shelved by help of Henry Ford, who used that to gain membership to the Huron Mountain Club. There is a stretch of highway called Blind 35 northwest of Marquette that is a dirt road and just ends up dead ending after several miles.

Your US 101 reference certainly is on point. I recently looked up how far it was between Aberdeen and Olympia using US 101 and it's nearly 300 miles. I just never realized how big the Olympic Peninsula is.

[Flint1979]

You'd think US41 would be the direct route to Marquette and US141 would be an auxiliary branch winding around to the east.  NOPE

Just so you know US 41 is the direct route to Marquette from Green Bay. US 141 doesn't come within 50 miles of Marquette.

The thing that gets me about US 41 in Michigan is that it takes an inland route instead of hugging the water which is what M-35 does. It seems like US 41 should run along the water and M-35 should be the inland route.

US-41 was already an established route.  That section of M-35 wasn't designated until four years after US-41.

That should have been an obvious change in routing. US 41 between Menominee and Powers was originally M-15 and I don't think M-35's stretch between Escanaba and Menominee is much different in design than US 41 between Escanaba and Menominee.  Under AASHTO guidelines, US Highways are to follow the most direct path between two locations which is not the case here.

To what scale is that guidance?  Between every little town?  Between major cities?  Something in between?  I'm curious to know how that's worded, and also how closely it's followed.

(ps – US-101 sure doesn't follow the shortest route from Aberdeen to Olympia.)

It's generally followed, but there are exceptions, like US 1 following the coast in CT and RI instead of going inland, US 4 having a shortcut using NY 7/VT 9/NH 9, US 101 as mentioned, and the ridiculous US 311.

NE2 made a thread about all indirect 2-digit US routes, but I can't find it.

I believe that US 311 is considered an alternate route to US 220 which does a much more direct route than US 311 does.

Another thing I've been wondering is how does US 1 get west of several other north-south routes when it's suppose to be the eastern most route.

[Flint1979]

Also, speaking of US41 and US141...the concurrency is completely unnecessary!  US141 doesn't continue to the south at all, so just end it at Abrams!  Same with I-41 south of Milwaukee.  What the hell are you thinking, Wisconsin!?  It's like they know they have a reputation as The Concurrency State and they're trying super-hard to live up to it. 

I know it really doesn't go anywhere but it does break off from US 41 again and run through Green Bay. I would just renumber that as a state highway though and also end it at Abrams.

[hotdogPi]

Another thing I've been wondering is how does US 1 get west of several other north-south routes when it's suppose to be the eastern most route.

1 is the easternmost major US route; it goes from Maine to Florida. 13 and 17 are in or near the proper place in the grid, as US 3, 5, 7, and 9 are farther east, and US 11 violates the grid (making it not the fault of US 13 or US 17).

[kphoger]

NE2 made a thread about all indirect 2-digit US routes, but I can't find it.

Don't remember that one.  Hmmmmm.....  All I can find is one about indirect 2-digit Interstates; NE2 posted several times on it, but he didn't create it.

[CNGL-Leudimin]

NE2 made a thread about all indirect 2-digit US routes, but I can't find it.

This one.

[kphoger]

In which case, the following snip from NE2's original post is relevant:

Current US 41 to Escanaba was all paved in 1926, but M-35 was not.

[bugo]

The US 31/31A/41/41A/431 piggyback in Nashville, Tennessee has the potential to be very confusing.

[jp the roadgeek]

US 11 violates the grid

Yes, but not as much as you think.  It violates by less than a mile.  If you consider its northern end is in Rouses Point, NY and you go by the northern end of routes in fitting the grid, it ends only about a mile east of US 9's northern end. Otherwise, Rouses Point is farther east than Morrisville, PA (US 13's northern end), Rochester (US 15's historical northern end), and Winchester, VA (US 17's northern end). US 59 is a true violator.  It's southern and northern end is farther west than the southern and northern ends of both US 61 and US 71.

[Hurricane Rex]

The US 31/31A/41/41A/431 piggyback in Nashville, Tennessee has the potential to be very confusing.

Excessive much? Just saying about how many US routes are here.

[Max Rockatansky]

I completely forgot about the cluster-$@%$ that is Dothan, AL:

231USc by Max Rockatansky, on Flickr

[CNGL-Leudimin]

The US 31/31A/41/41A/431 piggyback in Nashville, Tennessee has the potential to be very confusing.

IMO Alt US 31 and Alt US 41 can be omitted, since this is already plain US 31 and plain US 41. However I'd throw an US 341 there .

[hotdogPi]

The US 31/31A/41/41A/431 piggyback in Nashville, Tennessee has the potential to be very confusing.

IMO Alt US 31 and Alt US 41 can be omitted, since this is already plain US 31 and plain US 41. However I'd throw an US 341 there .

And US 43. Interestingly, extending US 43 north and US 341 northwest would put them both in or near Nashville. US 341 would need to bend a bit (it's currently WNW-ESE), but not much.

[Eth]

The US 31/31A/41/41A/431 piggyback in Nashville, Tennessee has the potential to be very confusing.

IMO Alt US 31 and Alt US 41 can be omitted, since this is already plain US 31 and plain US 41. However I'd throw an US 341 there .

Doesn't US 31A end a few blocks south of here anyway? (It looks like the photo is at Broadway/US 70.) And I guess they decided it made more sense to just have 41 and 41A run together instead of having a 41A end on the south side of downtown and then another one start just a mile and a half up the road.

And at least this isn't over on the other side of the river where 31 splits up into 31W and 31E.

[jwolfer]

I-95 / NJ Turnpike. Actually it's the non-concurrency that's more confusing than the concurrency. Things will only get worse when the PA Turnpike interchange is complete

Most (non roadgeek)people already think the turnpike is 95.. the 95 shields at exit 6 will be a mindfuck for some people.. I can see them stopping right on the shoulder in their bewilderment.

NJ should make an exception to the non duplication rule and make the turnpike SR95 and put up the circle signs. And continue as Delaware 95, Delaware already has duplicated routes.  In NJ it would just be called Route 95 by everyone anyway, shields don't matter

Z981

And this will help how? You're going to have a choice of two 95s going south *and* north?

I could see the confusion I'd driving north from Philadelphia thru exit 6.. one would hope people would realize they are going north toward NYC.. however I don't give people that much credit

It would be like US 95 and AZ SR 95..

Z981

[jwolfer]

Another thing I've been wondering is how does US 1 get west of several other north-south routes when it's suppose to be the eastern most route.

1 is the easternmost major US route; it goes from Maine to Florida. 13 and 17 are in or near the proper place in the grid, as US 3, 5, 7, and 9 are farther east, and US 11 violates the grid (making it not the fault of US 13 or US 17).

The coast is not exactly straight north south.. Jacksonville FL is the longitude of Cleveland.

US1 is de facto East-West from Providence to NYC

US1 follows the east coast/fall line... so i don't consider it horrible violation of the grid. Doing the best with a square grid on a weird trapezoidal shape

Z981