Why doesn't Massachusetts sign well for Vermont?

[interstatefan990]

I've kind of noticed that the Massachusetts Turnpike and other roads in MA are somewhat lacking in signage pointing traffic to Vermont or Brattleboro. Even where it meets I-91, there is still almost no signage indicated that the route goes into Vermont or any of its control cities. If Albany can be a signed destination, then why can't a whole state be one?

Places where there is no mention of Vermont:

Route 10/US 5 (less than 25 miles from the border!)
Here
US-20 and US-7 (Signs for Williamstown, which is close to the border)
Here
MA-43 and US 7 (Same deal as US-20 and US-7)
Here
Here

The only examples I could find were minor surface roads very close to the border and a few places on the MA 2 surface-road-turned-freeway.

[Rothman]

Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.

Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.

Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.

Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.

[roadman65]

Maybe cause VT has no large cities noteworthy of bring signed.

[interstatefan990]

Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.

Well, duh, not on the entire route, but at least signing it where it meets up with I-91 would make more sense.

Maybe cause VT has no large cities noteworthy of bring signed.

It could be argued that Burlington could be signed, but I'd much rather the signs just say Vermont as their control since it dosen't have individual noteworthy cities like you said. Then again, you don't see full state names by themselves on guide signs like that, at least in this region.

[roadman65]

New Jersey is used by NYCDOT and NYSDOT often.

[interstatefan990]

New Jersey is used by NYCDOT and NYSDOT often.

I was referring to more of the Massachusetts/Vermont region further north, but yes, you're correct.

[roadman65]

Well at one time Massachusetts was the SB control city from VT 9  for I-91 in Brattleboro.  True Vermont is hardly used while New York will use the nearest border community in Vermont as a destination on roads leading out of state.

[Roadgeekteen]

Williamson is a major destination for the Berkshires, as the home of Williams College. Makes sense to sign it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6703569,-72.5393936,3a,43.3y,291.41h,83.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUMFItzkTVIf4GoftCiWX-A!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DUMFItzkTVIf4GoftCiWX-A%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D80.2653%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Actually didn't know that WRJ was signed in Massachusetts!

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4826846,-72.6132135,3a,31.6y,316.24h,90.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sY8KDIdEoTT7knwWblAjruQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DY8KDIdEoTT7knwWblAjruQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D34.956673%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Seems like Brattleboro is well signed on I-91 even south of Greenfield. Holyoke makes sense as a control city as there isn't much in the way of people in Vermont. Only thing that I have a problem with is Northfield. Yikes.

[Roadgeekteen]

Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.

Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.

Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.

Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.

Brattleboro is 6 times bigger and much more notable than Bernardston. Pownal should be Bennignton IMO.

[Rothman]

Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.

Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.

Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.

Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.

Brattleboro is 6 times bigger and much more notable than Bernardston. Pownal should be Bennignton IMO.

*reaches for his revolver*

[jp the roadgeek]

Brattleboro is used on I-91 NB mileage signs about a mile after crossing the CT border

https://goo.gl/maps/Ct33Rqh27pNgXBRV6

[interstatefan990]

So is I-91 the only route in MA that signs sufficiently for Vermont/Brattleboro (besides where it meets I-90)? Why is it not signed in the Route 10/US-5 example but it is signed all the way near the CT border? I find it odd that Brattleboro is signed at the fork after the MA-2 onramp and not before on US-5.

[Roadgeekteen]

So is I-91 the only route in MA that signs sufficiently for Vermont/Brattleboro (besides where it meets I-90)? Why is it not signed in the Route 10/US-5 example but it is signed all the way near the CT border? I find it odd that Brattleboro is signed at the fork after the MA-2 onramp and not before on US-5.

I'm starting to think that that one sign you found is a one off thing.

[jp the roadgeek]

Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.

Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.

Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.

Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.

Brattleboro is 6 times bigger and much more notable than Bernardston. Pownal should be Bennignton IMO.

*reaches for his revolver*

And then again, you could always aim for bigger fish and skip Vermont altogether https://goo.gl/maps/6rRkYwHHLxVsVvYw5

[Roadgeekteen]

Doesn't make any sense to sign Vermont on the Mass Pike anywhere, which is mainly for east-west traffic by far.

Williamstown is a huge college town and destination of its own. Pownal, VT is a control town from there, as well as others headed north from MA 2.

Bernardston vs. Brattleboro is no big deal, either.

Again, control city debates make me reach for my revolver.

Brattleboro is 6 times bigger and much more notable than Bernardston. Pownal should be Bennignton IMO.

*reaches for his revolver*

And then again, you could always aim for bigger fish and skip Vermont altogether https://goo.gl/maps/6rRkYwHHLxVsVvYw5

That's cool but

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Williamstown,+MA/Montreal,+QC,+Canada/@42.7950877,-74.3846039,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x89e0b111fa562f95:0x444616296f5399df!2m2!1d-73.2036898!2d42.7120196!1m5!1m1!1s0x4cc91a541c64b70d:0x654e3138211fefef!2m2!1d-73.5673919!2d45.5018869!3e0

[Ted$8roadFan]

The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, Lee, Shelburne Falls, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Also, most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (specifically I-93 to I-89).

[MATraveler128]

The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).

Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.

[interstatefan990]

I mean, I think I'm correct to assume that a good chunk of traffic on the MA Turnpike is long-distance traffic, going to Boston, Albany, maybe NYC, and, well, Vermont. It is I-90 after all.

The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).

Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.

Exactly. This is why this signing scheme confuses me. And honestly, if they're going to sign Montreal, Canada of all places, they might as well use Burlington instead of Pownal. Or maybe they just wanted to put a Canada (Quebec) sign somewhere for good measure.

[Roadgeekteen]

The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).

Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.

The problem is that's not the fastest way from Williamstown to Montreal.

[Ted$8roadFan]

I mean, I think I'm correct to assume that a good chunk of traffic on the MA Turnpike is long-distance traffic, going to Boston, Albany, maybe NYC, and, well, Vermont. It is I-90 after all.

The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).

Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.

Exactly. This is why this signing scheme confuses me. And honestly, if they're going to sign Montreal, Canada of all places, they might as well use Burlington instead of Pownal. Or maybe they just wanted to put a Canada (Quebec) sign somewhere for good measure.

I agree that Bennington should be signed in Williamstown (no offense to Pownal). It makes me wonder if the MassDOT regional district office has a specific grudge against Vermont.

[Rothman]

The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).

Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.

The problem is that's not the fastest way from Williamstown to Montreal.

The horror.

[roadman65]

Hey I lived in NJ where rarely our towns got a mention outside our state. Even Trenton on I-95 got axed for New York.  So this is spilled milk worrying about  Vermont being ignored In Massachusetts.

[Roadgeekteen]

The part of MA closest to Vermont is arguably the most remote. Two of the three major highways, MA-2 and I-90/Mass Pike are east west routes that don't cross into Vermont and have other destinations in the Massachusetts (such as Northampton, Greenfield, and Williamstown). All that said, a mention of Brattleboro/Bennington would be OK. Most of the more populated parts of MA heading to Vermont do so through New Hampshire (I-93 to I-89).

Of course that doesn't stop them from signing Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown. But regardless, Bennington should really be used instead of Pownal.

The problem is that's not the fastest way from Williamstown to Montreal.

The horror.

The whole point of control cities is to be useful to motorists. Signing the slower route to get to a place defeats their whole purpose. And Vermont actually poorly signs Montreal as well, so the signs kinda useless except as a fun novelty.

[shadyjay]

Brattleboro is used as a control city on I-91 North onramp signage all the way south to Ingleside/Exit 12.  As far as on-highway pullthrus, those have pretty much gone away 2 sign replacements ago, except on the Springfield viaduct and I-391 split.  Northampton used to get the love, but that was replaced with Holyoke in Springfield itself, and Greenfield.  At least there's the advance distance/mileage signs (the one at <MP 1 north of the CT border being one) and others which come after selected exits, and those often list the next big town along with 2 major points (Springfield/Hartford SB and Greenfield/Brattleboro NB). 

Yes, the ramp signage from the MassPike to the I-91/US 5 connector leaves much to be desired.  There are so many destinations listed for that exit on the MassPike, but when you get to that jct, there is hardly any signage pointing you in the right direction.  Hartford should at least be on the I-91 sign, instead of Holyoke (that can go on US 5).  I swear years ago it was on the primary sign for then-Exit 4.  I know it gets mention on the I-291 exit's primary, but that's kinda out of the way... not as much as NY City being listed eastbound for the I-84 exit.

[Roadgeekteen]

Brattleboro is used as a control city on I-91 North onramp signage all the way south to Ingleside/Exit 12.  As far as on-highway pullthrus, those have pretty much gone away 2 sign replacements ago, except on the Springfield viaduct and I-391 split.  Northampton used to get the love, but that was replaced with Holyoke in Springfield itself, and Greenfield.  At least there's the advance distance/mileage signs (the one at <MP 1 north of the CT border being one) and others which come after selected exits, and those often list the next big town along with 2 major points (Springfield/Hartford SB and Greenfield/Brattleboro NB). 

Yes, the ramp signage from the MassPike to the I-91/US 5 connector leaves much to be desired.  There are so many destinations listed for that exit on the MassPike, but when you get to that jct, there is hardly any signage pointing you in the right direction.  Hartford should at least be on the I-91 sign, instead of Holyoke (that can go on US 5).  I swear years ago it was on the primary sign for then-Exit 4.  I know it gets mention on the I-291 exit's primary, but that's kinda out of the way... not as much as NY City being listed eastbound for the I-84 exit.

In my opinion, Northampton should be used instead of Greenfield. Northampton is significantly bigger than Greenfield.