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Why doesn't Massachusetts sign well for Vermont?

Started by interstatefan990, February 19, 2023, 10:43:02 PM

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Ted$8roadFan

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 21, 2023, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: shadyjay on February 21, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Brattleboro is used as a control city on I-91 North onramp signage all the way south to Ingleside/Exit 12.  As far as on-highway pullthrus, those have pretty much gone away 2 sign replacements ago, except on the Springfield viaduct and I-391 split.  Northampton used to get the love, but that was replaced with Holyoke in Springfield itself, and Greenfield.  At least there's the advance distance/mileage signs (the one at <MP 1 north of the CT border being one) and others which come after selected exits, and those often list the next big town along with 2 major points (Springfield/Hartford SB and Greenfield/Brattleboro NB). 

Yes, the ramp signage from the MassPike to the I-91/US 5 connector leaves much to be desired.  There are so many destinations listed for that exit on the MassPike, but when you get to that jct, there is hardly any signage pointing you in the right direction.  Hartford should at least be on the I-91 sign, instead of Holyoke (that can go on US 5).  I swear years ago it was on the primary sign for then-Exit 4.  I know it gets mention on the I-291 exit's primary, but that's kinda out of the way... not as much as NY City being listed eastbound for the I-84 exit.
In my opinion, Northampton should be used instead of Greenfield. Northampton is significantly bigger than Greenfield.

I believe from the Pike, Old Exit 3/New Exit 41 to MA-10/US-202 uses Northampton in addition to Westfield.


Rothman

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 21, 2023, 05:10:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 21, 2023, 04:36:43 PM
Quote from: shadyjay on February 21, 2023, 04:32:29 PM
Brattleboro is used as a control city on I-91 North onramp signage all the way south to Ingleside/Exit 12.  As far as on-highway pullthrus, those have pretty much gone away 2 sign replacements ago, except on the Springfield viaduct and I-391 split.  Northampton used to get the love, but that was replaced with Holyoke in Springfield itself, and Greenfield.  At least there's the advance distance/mileage signs (the one at <MP 1 north of the CT border being one) and others which come after selected exits, and those often list the next big town along with 2 major points (Springfield/Hartford SB and Greenfield/Brattleboro NB). 

Yes, the ramp signage from the MassPike to the I-91/US 5 connector leaves much to be desired.  There are so many destinations listed for that exit on the MassPike, but when you get to that jct, there is hardly any signage pointing you in the right direction.  Hartford should at least be on the I-91 sign, instead of Holyoke (that can go on US 5).  I swear years ago it was on the primary sign for then-Exit 4.  I know it gets mention on the I-291 exit's primary, but that's kinda out of the way... not as much as NY City being listed eastbound for the I-84 exit.
In my opinion, Northampton should be used instead of Greenfield. Northampton is significantly bigger than Greenfield.

I believe from the Pike, Old Exit 3/New Exit 41 to MA-10/US-202 uses Northampton in addition to Westfield.
I doubt anyone takes MA-10 from there to Northampton, though.  Probably still faster to take the Pike to I-91 to MA-9.

Then again, not sure what else is supposed to go on the sign.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

froggie

Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2023, 07:26:28 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 21, 2023, 05:10:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 21, 2023, 04:36:43 PM
In my opinion, Northampton should be used instead of Greenfield. Northampton is significantly bigger than Greenfield.

I believe from the Pike, Old Exit 3/New Exit 41 to MA-10/US-202 uses Northampton in addition to Westfield.
I doubt anyone takes MA-10 from there to Northampton, though.  Probably still faster to take the Pike to I-91 to MA-9.

Then again, not sure what else is supposed to go on the sign.

If coming from the west, taking MA 10 is faster if your destination is anywhere along 10 or along MA 66.  Or if there's a snafu on 91 in Northampton, which has been a regular occurrence this past year due to a bridge replacement project near Exit 23 (and will probably continue through this year).

shadyjay

...  and through the next decade for sure.  I swear that section from Mt Tom to Northampton has been under construction since the 1990s in some way/shape/form.  Starting in the early/mid 90s, it was the ramp from 91SB to 5SB in northern portion of Northampton.  Then for like 5 years, it was several bridge decks out by the Oxbow (that are even worse now).  Then it was the bridges from the Route 9 exit, north out along Damon Rd to the onramp.  Then it was the bottom of the Route 9 exit itself (rotary).  Now its the Rt 5/Conn River Line bridge.  At least they're maintaining 2 lanes during the work.  I just wonder if MassDOT will ever widen from Holyoke up to Route 9... it sure could use it, as a lot of traffic exits there, heading to Amherst. 

What is interesting about the I-91 onramps from the I-90/US 5 connector is that most locations to the north of that point utilize two control cities on the onramp signage, while this one uses only one per direction.  I'd like to see "Springfield/Hartford CT" and "Northampton/Greenfield" or "Northampton/Brattleboro VT".  Before the I-91/US 5 split, I'd sign US 5 for Holyoke and West Springfield. 
I-91's control city when approaching US 5/Exit 10 is "Holyoke" which just seems so wrong, especially since a good portion of the way is 4-lanes/divided. 


Ted$8roadFan

I can't recall exactly, but I think a few decades ago, Northampton was a control city for I-91 North from the Mass. Pike/US-5 interchange in addition to Holyoke. In any event, NoHo is large enough to be one, and so is Brattleboro. It again makes me wonder if local/regional politics have a role to play.....this is Massachusetts after all.

Rothman

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 22, 2023, 07:48:43 AM
I can't recall exactly, but I think a few decades ago, Northampton was a control city for I-91 North from the Mass. Pike/US-5 interchange in addition to Holyoke. In any event, NoHo is large enough to be one, and so is Brattleboro. It again makes me wonder if local/regional politics have a role to play.....this is Massachusetts after all.
My bet is the designing engineer just picked a place.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Roadgeekteen

God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Rothman

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

LilianaUwU

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
If all roads lead to Rome, then the same must be true for Tokyo.
"Volcano with no fire... Not volcano... Just mountain."
—Mr. Thwomp

My pronouns are she/her. Also, I'm an admin on the AARoads Wiki.

Rothman

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

SectorZ

Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2023, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.

We did have one a few years ago, Miami on I-95 S/B at the I-85 split outside Richmond. Glad I got to see that one before it was replaced.

Rothman

Quote from: SectorZ on February 25, 2023, 09:19:26 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2023, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.

We did have one a few years ago, Miami on I-95 S/B at the I-85 split outside Richmond. Glad I got to see that one before it was replaced.
No, if I were in Richmond and wanted to drive to Miami, I would take I-95.  That's not the same as putting Tokyo on I-94 eastbound.

Even the previous example of putting Montreal on US 7 in Williamstown, MA isn't horrible, just given what a map looks like (e.g., MA 2 squiggling towards Troy).  So, I can see how that got put there, despite Google Maps finding that heading over to I-87 would be faster.  Again, our country is littered with control cities used in cases where the route would not be the fastest, so no biggie (e.g., Northampton being used at I-90/US 202/MA 10 when Google says I-90 to I-91 is faster).

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Roadgeekteen

Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2023, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.
I was joking with that comment.
God-emperor of Alanland, king of all the goats and goat-like creatures

Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

Rothman

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 11:58:39 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 25, 2023, 09:13:02 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.
Let me know when we have such an extreme example in the U.S.
I was joking with that comment.
Oh.

Ha.  Hahaha.  Ha.  Ha.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

interstatefan990

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.

There's a Tokio, North Dakota. One letter off.  :spin:
Multi-lane roundabouts are an abomination to mankind.

Rothman

Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 26, 2023, 03:32:48 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 25, 2023, 05:48:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 11:15:39 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:59:27 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 22, 2023, 04:56:26 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 22, 2023, 04:22:29 PM
Holyoke is bigger than Northampton.
Holyoke also has a poor reputation.
Detroit also has a poor reputation. Should be sign Saginaw on I-75 north in Toledo?
Doesn't matter.  There are no right answers when it comes to control cities.
You are 100% right. But there are wrong answers. If you signed I-94 east in North Dakota with a control city of Tokyo, that would be objectively incorrect.

There's a Tokio, North Dakota. One letter off.  :spin:
Eh, that works.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

ThatHighwayGuy777

On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada

The Nature Boy

Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada

WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.

I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....

Ted$8roadFan

Quote from: The Nature Boy on September 15, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
Quote from: ThatHighwayGuy777 on September 13, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
On I-91 we get signed for White River JCT, VT obviously indicating I-89 also Vermont doesn't sign Springfield and becomes very greedy with its control cities sometimes also because I-91's last big "city" is Greenfield, MA after that we just head directly for Canada

WRJ is also helpful for people who might be visiting a certain Ivy League school up in that neck of the woods. It's a village in a neighboring town and people who are familiar with the area would know it. There's a lot of traffic from NYC to that area.

I suppose signing "Hanover NH" would be more on the nose for that one though....

I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hamoshire city as a control.

shadyjay

Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.

Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.

A thought just occured to me...

Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"?  I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign.  "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.

The Nature Boy

Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.

Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.

A thought just occured to me...

Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"?  I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign.  "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.

Claremont is a regional center for the southern part of the Upper Valley (or northern part of whatever is south of the Upper Valley) so it should probably be a control city on I-91. But yeah, I don't see Vermont signing an NH city on I-91.

Ted$8roadFan

Quote from: shadyjay on September 15, 2023, 08:57:04 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on September 15, 2023, 05:28:03 PM
I can't imagine Vermont using a New Hampshire city as a control.

Hmmm.... I-89 uses Concord, I-93 uses Littleton.
Unless you're refering specific to I-91.

A thought just occured to me...

Did Mass ever sign I-91 with a control city of "NH - VT" like they did in the eastern half of the state with "NH - Maine"?  I don't think they did, but its something that would have been completely applicable, given that most of the exits on I-91 in VT share a NH control city, whether on a primary or secondary sign.  "Brattleboro/Keene", "Westminster/Walpole", "Springfield/Charlestown", "Norwich/Hanover", etc etc.

I was referring specifically to I-91. It makes sense that 89 and 93 would sign Concord and Littleton, respectively, since those highways go through those places.

As for VT/NH, VT would make more sense than NH, since there are other more highly traveled direct routes into the major cities of NH. Speaking of which, the NH-Maine references in eastern Mass. have been replaced by specific cities (i.e. Portsmouth, NH) with a few exceptions.




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