Rail Expansion Projects (Northeast)

[Nexis4Jersey]

The fact of the matter is the Car Attitude in the Northeast & other parts of the Country is dying off slowly

That is what you want, but the reality is different. Between 1999 and 2008, daily vehicle mileage in New Jersey increased by 11%. At the same time, the New Jersey population has grown by 3.5%. Dying off slowly? I don't think so. It increases faster than population, which means the car usage is actually increasing.

Chris has never been to the US to see this , he bases everything on observations , and guessing. 

Guessing? Scientific research! But that doesn't fit within your way of thinking, making vague statements that are hardly true, citing blogs and rumors that cannot be considered independent or objective. My uncle says things too, you know. Of course transit/rail-advocates will say that, it would be surprising if they didn't. However, facts do not support these claims. You keep coming up with claims without any factual support, while I cite legitimate sources and surveys. If anyone bases his opinions and claims on "observations" and guessing, it's you.

All i want is a Balanced System of Highways and Railways in the Northeast.  And why are you so against that?  We can't widen anything here , due to density and Environmental laws.   Your reputation isn't looking very nice , i thought you of all people would support a balanced system....I guess not , i guess your one of those guys who thinks its ok to tear down entire neighborhoods and build an 10 lane freeway or cut down a huge chunk of a forest.

[J N Winkler]

I've never heard of a transit agency covering operating costs let alone making a profit especially when including capital costs (trains, stations, etc.).

I have heard of it, but not anywhere in the US.  The London Underground does cover its operating costs from the farebox with enough left over to allow the issuance of bonds for Tube renovation and expansion.  (This never happened due to Treasury opposition, however--the senior Treasury civil servants involved wanted PPP rather than bonding.  The work was eventually contracted to two companies under PPP, one of which has already gone bust.)  I think the Madrid Metro may be able to cover its costs without outside subventions too, but that is just guessing on my part (based partly on Line 1 being SRO for about three hours each in the morning and evening).

[Chris]

Operational costs and construction investment are two different things though. Even if you manage to break even with the operational cost, there is still the financial burden of the initial investment, which can be equal or greater than several years of operational income. Only a few Asian subway systems have a farebox recovery ratio greater than 100%. But that doesn't mean they are profitable in the end. Constructing the system in the first place isn't cheap either.

All i want is a Balanced System of Highways and Railways in the Northeast.  And why are you so against that?  We can't widen anything here , due to density and Environmental laws.   Your reputation isn't looking very nice , i thought you of all people would support a balanced system....I guess not , i guess your one of those guys who thinks its ok to tear down entire neighborhoods and build an 10 lane freeway or cut down a huge chunk of a forest.

Those are your own presumptions, I have never said that. I stated a number of facts why transit and rail can be a significant financial problem for Department of Transportation agencies, thus the American taxpayer, especially if it is based on misleading assumptions and projections.

[Nexis4Jersey]

So becuz of the cost and operating costs , we shouldn't expand?  Thats a really dumb thing to say.  Come here and spend a week drive around the NE and then tell me, we don't need more transit.  Public projects will slowly drop , and more private and larger projects are coming.  We can break operating costs if we breakdown the agencies , most agencies here are switching the Buses to hybrids and Electrifying more to save on fuel costs.

[J N Winkler]

Private investment?  What a chimera!  Given the consistent discrepancy between projected and actual ridership, why should a private company take a punt on rail transit?  Toll roads are a safer investment and quite a few of those have been going bust too.

[froggie]

Only private investment you're seeing in rail is with freight rail.  Because that's the only place those private companies can see a profit.  You MIGHT see private investment in public transit in cases where it would increase the real estate value of the company's holdings, but would only work for localized projects (i.e. streetcar/LRT/MAYBE heavy-rail) and not intercity rail.

[Nexis4Jersey]

A few Light Rail Projects here including the Mega Network system , will get the Majority of funding form Private , the Mayors of Jersey City , Newark , Elizabeth , New Brunswick , Paterson are for and are pushing for Light Rail transit.

[Chris]

Come here and spend a week drive around the NE and then tell me, we don't need more transit.

The problem is transit does not solve traffic problems. First of all, you'll see a shift from bus to rail-based transit, and from park/ride and carpool to transit. This barely reduces road traffic. Approximately 10% of the transit riders outside Manhattan are the so-called "choice travelers" i.e. people that could do that trip every day with the car as well. It is a myth that more rail-based transit solve traffic problems. Any traffic reduction is quickly absorbed by the natural growth of traffic, remember that 11% growth in 9 years I mentioned earlier.

That doesn't mean we should abandon passenger rail transport completely, but history and research shows us many cost and ridership projections should be taken with a huge grain of salt. The financial risk for the taxpayer is huge, especially in this day and age of transportation funding shortfalls.

[mgk920]

And Chris will also tell you that despite a relatively intensive common-carrier passenger rail transport presence in Europe and the Netherlands in particular and the Netherlands' reputation for having some of the most expensive petrol in all of Europe, the BIGGEST transport problem in his home country is - - - traffic congestion, especially on the highways and motorways.

Do we need a well-balanced transport system in the USA?  *OF COURSE!*  BUT, the mixes and levels of service of the various modes must be well conceived and appropriate for the various locales (and the USA is a *HUGE* and vastly varied nation, indeed).

Cory, as you continue to live and have life experiences, from which you will accumulate wisdom, and I very much suggest that you enroll in university classes to study city planning and/or civil engineering, you will gain an appreciation for this, including the all-important public opinion inputs and reactions and learning about market nuances.

Mike

[Duke87]

I honestly do not understand the love affair some people have with light rail. Really, light rail = buses - tires + rails.
Oh, and it costs more. Better to just go for BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) if simple bus service won't cut it but a subway line is too much.

The biggest concern, though, is one of safety. I don't like trains mixing and mingling with vehicular traffic and pedestrians. Accidents happen that way. We need to be removing grade crossings, not building new ones.

[Nexis4Jersey]

I honestly do not understand the love affair some people have with light rail. Really, light rail = buses - tires + rails.
Oh, and it costs more. Better to just go for BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) if simple bus service won't cut it but a subway line is too much.

The biggest concern, though, is one of safety. I don't like trains mixing and mingling with vehicular traffic and pedestrians. Accidents happen that way. We need to be removing grade crossings, not building new ones.

It moves faster , looks sleeker and thats how attracts more people, Portland has a medium and growing to large Streetcar network in Downtown & they haven't had many accidents , same in Boston and here in Jersey City, people tend to drive more Cautionously around Light Rail & Streetcars.

[mightyace]

they haven't had many accidents , same in Boston and here in Jersey City, people tend to drive more Cautionously around Light Rail & Streetcars.

Maybe true, but it's still better when any rail can be grade separated from cars and trucks.  Of course, it is more expensive to build without road crossings with tunneling being the most expensive.

[D-Dey65]

All i want is a Balanced System of Highways and Railways in the Northeast.  And why are you so against that?  We can't widen anything here , due to density and Environmental laws.

I haven't seen a balanced system of highways and railways in the northeast. Most of the time I see people slamming highways and deluding themselves into believing railways are the cure-all. Also, it's not that you can't widen anything as much as it is you don't want to. I've seen plenty of roads that I knew needed to be widened before I was even old enough to drive, and yet instead of wideining those roads some developer plops a shopping center or housing development in the way. Also, too often the environmental laws are misued to obstruct road improvements(i.e.; Abraham Ribicoff vs. the Bayville-Rye Bridge and completion of the Seaford-Oyster Bay Expressway). Those same environmental laws are the reason we have that mess known as the Oakdale Merge. It's as if the people who tried to stop the previous NYSDOT proposal thought that by making the better interchange it would somehow lead to development Connetquot River State Park and Bayard Cutting Arboretum. Hogwash. The only thing that would've been built in the area is the road itself.

As an example of how roads can be built without that much environmental damage, you can just look at Sunrise Highway over the Patchogue River. When it was a four-lane highway, it was seven feet above water level. When the DOT widened it and installed service roads, they raised it to 20-feet above water level. Or, you could consider Interstate 70 at Glenwood Canyon.

[Nexis4Jersey]

D-Dey65 : I'm not saying there a cure all , we also need an HOV lane system on most highways and encourage Car sharing and pooling.  But Rail Transit can shove half of this, having seen the majority of 2030 plans for the Northeast and seeing the progress being made in certain areas , a balanced system in some parts of the NE is less then 10 years away, for the whole NE 5-20 years away.  I don't understand why you guys have such , anti-Rail thoughts, it doesn't make any sense.  Environmental laws are not really mis-used , we grew to fast and outwards, which over the past 10 years has slowly stopped and people are moving back in, becuz its cheaper.  Alot of Northeastern Cities and dense suburbs are starting to embrace rail and transit use and encourage smart growth development.  Its more healthier to have a Railway cut through your city then a highway in the Noise pollution and air quality.  The people on this forum who keep doubting future Rail and Transit will one day come to there senses.  As for Long Island it needs more North-South Connecting Rail lines , East-West is pretty good, a few of those connections.  The reason i think alot people still don't use rail here in the Northeast is there either lazy or they don't know how dense or flexible  the systems are.  The People outside the Northeast i think are jealous that we have Rail , so they often in my opinion try to put us down.  The I-70 through Glenwood Canyon still left a footprint, yes it was small but still had an impact.   Considering the Freight companies are willing to allow Passenger Agencies and private investment on there lines is a great thing and we should take full advantage of that, alot of our abandoned lines still have the original stations intact in good or bad conditions.   We should also encourage like in some cities Biking , and Alt forms of commuting.  environmentists and alot people are more warm to the idea of building more Transit and Rail then they are to roads and highways.  Also tourists and out-of staters love Rail and it can increase the local economy growth. 

mgk920 : I'm looking into that , maybe in September @ Rutgers if i can get in or Bergen Community College, or some other college.

mightyace : it varies city to city on the sharing , some cities have less accidents then others , for example Portland has very few accidents , but 1 line in Houston has alot.  Most cities start out with mixing via Bus / Bike lands and then later down the road put in a Streetcar or Light Rail line, in that way it helps drivers slowly adjust.

~Corey

[D-Dey65]

Nexis4Jersey, just because people are pro-road doesn't mean they're anti-rail. When NYSDOT considered replacing part of the Montauk Branch of the Long Island Railroad in the Hamptons with the Super-2 version of the Sunrise Highway extension, I thought that was a bad idea, and I would've thought it was a bad idea if they had done the same thing with a four or six-lane version. The HOV lane on the Long Island Expressway is crap(the one on I-95 in Northern Virginia is better), and making exceptions for vehicles with "Clean Fuel" stickers defeats the very purpose of the lanes. Also, if people in the south were so "jealous" and hostile towards light rail, as you claim they are, you wouldn't see it in places like Dallas, Houston, and Charlotte. My concern about light-rail in New Haven is that it may be used in sacrifice of the formerly proposed and should've been built Route 34 Expressway.


The thing is, there are places where light-rail can work, and places where it won't. New York City is one where it won't. Some have been planning to convert the West Hempstead Branch of the LIRR into a light rail line, but a lot of commuters and railfans don't like that idea.

And I'm sorry, but environmental laws have been misused to stop road improvements.

[Nexis4Jersey]

I strongly disagree with you about the New Haven thing , its ridiculous to build a Freeway in Downtown, it cuts neighborhoods and people , although i would support it , if it were underground.  But since New Haven will become a new Hub over the next 10 years , Light Rail and some scarfices are needed like burying parts of I-95 along the waterfront like they did in Oslo, so the rebirth & reconstruction of the waterfront and city can really take off.  I think that all urban freeways should be covered , and on top parks and buildings , i feel the same way about Rail yards.  You can easily build a connector or major road to the south of the CBD, but a Light Rail & Streetcar system would encourage people to use more Rails , instead of cars. 

[D-Dey65]

I strongly disagree with you about the New Haven thing , its ridiculous to build a Freeway in Downtown, it cuts neighborhoods and people,...

So does light rail and even heavy rail.

.. although i would support it , if it were underground.  But since New Haven will become a new Hub over the next 10 years , Light Rail and some scarfices are needed like burying parts of I-95 along the waterfront like they did in Oslo, so the rebirth & reconstruction of the waterfront and city can really take off.

Doing that forces more height limits for trucks.

[Nexis4Jersey]

D-Dey65 : not as much as a 10 lane freeway, an average train track is about the width of a half of a lane , Light Rail can easily be mixed into street traffic, the only time rail makes a bigger foot print is a Rail yard , but alot of yards around the US will be covered over the next 10-20 years with development and parts.   Aside form that how does Heavy or Light Rail divide cities , unless its on an embankment like in Newark.  Tunnels will not restrict that many trucks that it will become a problem , they can easily design it so its higher.  So i guess you want a city like New Haven to be divided by highways and blocked form the waterfront?

[D-Dey65]

D-Dey65 : not as much as a 10 lane freeway, an average train track is about the width of a half of a lane,

How often are contemporary light-rail right-of-ways used just for one track? From what I've seen, Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, and Newark Light Rail consist of two tracks. Besides that, I still disagree with getting rid of highway project and replacing them with either light-rail or rapid transit. I mentioned on other threads that my parents and I took a vacation to Long Island back around Christmas time, and the drive up was just fine until we reached Northern Virginia. If I-95 were extended through DC, and all the other highways that were supposed to have been built in Metro-DC during the 1960's and 1970's were built, the drive for myself and others would've been much easier. Plus in 2004, I took the AirTrain to JFK Airport and it was so slow, that it reaffirmed my belief that they would've been better off reviving the Clearview Expressway Extension to JFK.  I also remember that in the 1990's some black construction workers lead a protest claiming the city was cheating them out of jobs, and realized that such a project would be a perfect opportunity for them.

Aside form that how does Heavy or Light Rail divide cities, unless its on an embankment like in Newark.

The same way that a road can. If the Bushwick Expressway had been built through Brooklyn, none of the neighborhoods it would've went through would've changed their borders unless they wanted to. Williamsburg, Bushwick, and East New York aren't small enough to be swallowed up by such an expressway.

Tunnels will not restrict that many trucks that it will become a problem , they can easily design it so its higher.

They could, unless some anti-highway zealots try to stop them, just as they want to stop the replacement for the Kosciuszko Bridge.

So i guess you want a city like New Haven to be divided by highways and blocked form the waterfront?

No, I want people to be able to move through New Haven without having to rely solely on mass transit, or on just one or two roads.

[Chris]

The busiest railway system in Europe (the Netherlands) has a passenger mile footprint that is almost twice as large as the freeway network* (also the densest network in Europe). Overall, trains require more space. However, in certain urban settings, this is less of course. The main problem is occupancy rate. The busiest railway system in Europe has a occupancy rate of only 27%. To compare this to freeways, where the 6.00 - 20.00 usage is about 80 - 120% of capacity. The peak/off-peak difference is much larger in rail (and buses) than it is on freeways.

*
NL - freeways: 30 sq mi / 60 billion passenger miles
NL - rail: 38 sq mi / 10 billion passenger miles

thus the rail network requires 27% more space, but carries 6 times less passenger miles than the freeway network.

[Nexis4Jersey]

D-Dey65 : Yes & no , all the Light Rail networks in NJ & Future lines will use space given to them by the freight companies who have no purpose for it anymore.   Same is said around the Northeast , freight companies are starting to reorganize there operations, and place them outside the CBD's and dense neighborhoods.  Getting rid of that highway and renewing the CBD , should be a top priority, i guess you don't live next to a highway?  Becuz if you did you would have a different opinion , like alot of my friends and family.  The plan for New Haven is Streetcars , which would share the streets with cars and light rail would go 5-10 miles out into the surround dense suburbs.  Massive redevelopments are being lined up around the old highway corridor , for what i heard it includes a few high rises and parks replacing parking and smart growth developments around the city could happen.  The Airtrain is supposed to shuttle people back & fourth , not all rail is supposed to be super fast , and that comment makes you look like a whiner.  People here and people have ridden rail tell me , and i'm sure you can find others that as long as its a decent speed , they don't care.  The Air Train max's out @ around 55 mph , if it was slow its probably a malfunction which does happen although rarely.  NYC doesn't need anymore Freeways , but it needs alot of missing transit links.  Which some might happen this decade.  Not really , Rail doesn't divide as much as , Freeways do , i guess you don't see my point , which is very easy to see.  I doubt you'll get anti-Tunnel people on a Project that would connect the City with the waterfront, that statement holds little.  Why would streetcars and light rail change how people move through New Haven?  I doubt the people of New Haven want more traffic , espically form out of towner's.  It would balance it out more , so the city could redevelopment more around Transit and Railways, and some roads.  But i guess you don't understand how cities work.  I'm not thinking 1-5 years down the road, but more like 5-30 years, becuz here in the NE where at a cross-roads.  Do we build smartly and redevelop cities or do we continue to grow into the suburbs and build massive and freeways that will choke and scare away any major redevelopments?  The NE is already has the highest density for people in the US and it will only get more crowded. 

Chris :  stop comparing your network to our network, its like comparing cheese form France to Cheese in Cali.  Our tracks and trains and everything else here is different , and i have looked at your network.  Also i tend to take your info these days with a grain of salt , after some many dutch friends say differently. 

[Brandon]

Chris :  stop comparing your network to our network, its like comparing cheese form France to Cheese in Cali.  Our tracks and trains and everything else here is different , and i have looked at your network.  Also i tend to take your info these days with a grain of salt , after some many dutch friends say differently. 

I'll disagree.  Chris has some very valuable things to say, and the comparisons are very valid, IMHO.  Europe, being denser, has a much larger and more mature passenger (but not freight) rail network that seems to be the goal of many mass transit advocates.  It is very much worth a comparison to see what they have done, and what mistakes to avoid.

[InterstateNG]

Masterful discussion, this.  Strawmen, well poisonings, blocks of text riddled with errors, unsourced data, the works.  Action should be taken.

Forgive my backseat modding, but it's frustrating and I imagine other lurkers feel the same way.

[Scott5114]

Yeah, I think we're done here.