Control Cities in California

[mrsman]

At least one of the new southbound BGSs at the northern 5-805 split has Chula Vista as a control city for 805 south.  Other BGSs along the same stretch have no control city listed.

Sort of like the new signage along the 10 and 60 for the 57.  Most list no control city for the 57.  One lists "to 210" . But one advance BGS on the 60 east lists San Dimas as a control city as does a BGS on the transition road from the 10 east.

San Dimas is a fine control for 57 north and should be used on the mainline and from 60 EB and 10 EB.

From 10 WB, I'll go out on a limb and say that the [primary] control should be Pasadena.  This was the control when this section of road was I-210.  Since the road didn't change (only the number), the road can still get you to Pasadena as before and given the 710 gap remains the best way to reach Pasadena coming from the eastern 10.  It's too much backtracking to be considered on WB offramaps of 10. 

[ClassicHasClass]

At the I-8 junction, I-805 is signed for Nat'l City and Chula Juana Vista.

[mrsman]

At the I-8 junction, I-805 is signed for Nat'l City and Chula Juana Vista.

Those are fine controls for 805.  Those can be the southbound controls fro, I-5 to CA 54.  Even though I-5 also goes through those cities (and arguably goes closer to the downtown of those cities) by signing those cities at the northern 5/805, you are denoting that 805 is a bypass of Downtown SD to access those cities.

For those familiar with Delaware, there is similar signage where 95 and 495 split.  95 to Wilmington [denoting the route to Downtown W] and 495 to Philadelphia (or Baltimore if SB) denoting the bypass route.  Both 95 and 495 can be used at the split to reach Philadelphia (or Baltimore if SB) but 495 is the bypass of Downtown W.

In a similar vein, 805's NB control should be L.A. for its entire length (even at the Mexican border).

[SeriesE]

D7 still refers to this 1982 map, with reference to 1964, when working on sign projects in 2019. Go figure.

When discussing the new signs along the Hollywood and Santa Ana (US-101) freeways in downtown they decided to remove Hollywood and put Ventura.

One thing I don't get about this is if I-105 can get El Segundo and Norwalk, how come I-605 can't get Duarte and Seal Beach? They're all suburbs.

[mrsman]

D7 still refers to this 1982 map, with reference to 1964, when working on sign projects in 2019. Go figure.

When discussing the new signs along the Hollywood and Santa Ana (US-101) freeways in downtown they decided to remove Hollywood and put Ventura.

One thing I don't get about this is if I-105 can get El Segundo and Norwalk, how come I-605 can't get Duarte and Seal Beach? They're all suburbs.

You are right.  IMO, control cities should be large well known cities.  But where none exist on the routing, using a suburb, even if not well known, is far better than using nothing.

Another question would be whether if Duarte or Seal Beach are not good, then maybe we can at least use Norwalk as a SB control from 210, 10, and 60 and a NB control from 405 and 91?  Why is Norwalk a good control for the 105, but not the 605?

IIRC, on original planning, the 105's western control was originally supposed to be "LA Airport" not El Segundo, but given that the final routing did not directly connect into the airport (the aerial structure over Sepulveda/Century) they decided to use El Segundo instead.

[roadman65]

I do not see why Tijuana cannot be used for I-5 and I-805 S Bound.  Even in Mexico they use San Diego as a control city to cross the border.

Or do what they do at most places in Michigan crossing into Canada and use the country as a control city.  From Downtown San Diego use Mexico as at least that is some place over none.

I-105 used to use LAX before El Segundo was used, but now its back to using Century Blvd to the terminals from I-405 despite its unfreeway like demeanor.

I wonder if coming off Cajon Pass near San Bernardino now uses San Diego for I-15 S Bound along with Los Angeles as in 1988 San Diego was control point for I-215 do to the I-15 freeway being incomplete south of CA 60.  At the split of I-15 and I-215 in 88 no mention of I-215 to I-15 to circumnavigate the gap was used.  Only the mention that San Diego was a control city for I-215 along with San Bernardino as LA was sole control for I-15 SB.  I say this because I-215 could still be a better choice for through traffic going all the way on I-15, as I do not know the counts of traffic for either two interstate legs.

[TheStranger]

I wonder if coming off Cajon Pass near San Bernardino now uses San Diego for I-15 S Bound along with Los Angeles as in 1988 San Diego was control point for I-215 do to the I-15 freeway being incomplete south of CA 60.  At the split of I-15 and I-215 in 88 no mention of I-215 to I-15 to circumnavigate the gap was used.  Only the mention that San Diego was a control city for I-215 along with San Bernardino as LA was sole control for I-15 SB.  I say this because I-215 could still be a better choice for through traffic going all the way on I-15, as I do not know the counts of traffic for either two interstate legs.

San Diego is one of the I-15 control cities at the 15/215 junction in Devore:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2361299,-117.4249169,3a,75y,121.79h,90.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLYHuBL9u_nici3y7AUIrtA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Even though it is slightly shorter, 215's section from Riverside to Moreno Valley concurrent with 60 is a bit of a traffic bottleneck.

[mrsman]

I do not see why Tijuana cannot be used for I-5 and I-805 S Bound.  Even in Mexico they use San Diego as a control city to cross the border.

Agreed.   This is the best approach.  In Seattle, Vancouver BC is the northbound control - the next big city to the north, even though it is over the border (and not even right on the border).  I see no excuse for not posting any control city, if the road continues, it reaches somewhere.

Or do what they do at most places in Michigan crossing into Canada and use the country as a control city.  From Downtown San Diego use Mexico as at least that is some place over none.

I-105 used to use LAX before El Segundo was used, but now its back to using Century Blvd to the terminals from I-405 despite its unfreeway like demeanor.

Another issue is the exit from 105 to Sepulveda to LAX.  Only one traffic light you face from the exit to the Airport loop, but this traffic light causes major backups, even onto 105 itself.  It's a terrible design.  They would've been better off if the freeway were run above Century, instead of Imperial, west of the 405.  The 105 should've lead directly to LAX, similar to other Airport stub freeways like I-195 into Baltimore's airport or I-678 into JFK.

If you are coming from the east, at times it is best to use a surface street connection: 105-Aviation-Century.  But there is a lot of construction of the new light rail now, so it's anyone's guess as to how best to get to LAX.

I wonder if coming off Cajon Pass near San Bernardino now uses San Diego for I-15 S Bound along with Los Angeles as in 1988 San Diego was control point for I-215 do to the I-15 freeway being incomplete south of CA 60.  At the split of I-15 and I-215 in 88 no mention of I-215 to I-15 to circumnavigate the gap was used.  Only the mention that San Diego was a control city for I-215 along with San Bernardino as LA was sole control for I-15 SB.  I say this because I-215 could still be a better choice for through traffic going all the way on I-15, as I do not know the counts of traffic for either two interstate legs.

As Stranger pointed out, I-15  has a SD control as well as LA.  I-15 is far better choice for through traffic, not going into SB or Riverside.  IMO, very good signage needs to be placed along I-15 that guides L.A. bound traffic to I-10 and CA-60.  Even if the LA control is not used at the 15/210 and 15/91 interchanges, a sign should tell people that they need to continue on I-15 as the best way to reach LA.

[mrsman]

Any ideas for the use of control cities in the San Diego area?  I looked around on GSV and was surprised at how little control cities are being used.  There are many panels without control cities. 52, 56, 54, and 94 seem to have almost no control city signage and I know that there is no control city for SB I-15 south of 163.

[ClassicHasClass]

CA 125 neither. About the only places I see control cities consistently signed are on the Interstates, and even then biased more to the directions out of town rather than south and west.

[Joshua Whitman]

What I find most interesting is that on my visit to Southern California in 1988 I-10 had several control cities going EB from LA.  San Bernardino, Riverside, Palm Springs, and Indio.  In San Diego I-5 going SB had none, and coming from Tijuana at the I-5 and I-805 split that I-805 gets no control city at all! 

Then I-405 uses local places but heading north out of LA it uses a far away city such as Sacramento.  Then I-5 also uses Sacramento going NB but uses Santa Ana going SB instead of San Diego.

They are alot like NC using different points along the way with no consistency.

I believe there is no control city on I-805 because it spends the entirety of its existence within the city limits of San Diego.

With all due respect, Los Angeles is a control city on Interstate 805 at the Junction with SR-163

[andy3175]

What I find most interesting is that on my visit to Southern California in 1988 I-10 had several control cities going EB from LA.  San Bernardino, Riverside, Palm Springs, and Indio.  In San Diego I-5 going SB had none, and coming from Tijuana at the I-5 and I-805 split that I-805 gets no control city at all! 

Then I-405 uses local places but heading north out of LA it uses a far away city such as Sacramento.  Then I-5 also uses Sacramento going NB but uses Santa Ana going SB instead of San Diego.

They are alot like NC using different points along the way with no consistency.

I believe there is no control city on I-805 because it spends the entirety of its existence within the city limits of San Diego.

With all due respect, Los Angeles is a control city on Interstate 805 at the Junction with SR-163

The recent sign replacement project has established control cities for 5 southbound within San Diego County as follows:

San Diego
Downtown
Chula Vista
San Ysidro

805 southbound is generally signed now for Chula Vista starting at the split from Interstate 5.

15 south now has National City as the control from 8 southward.

Control cities south of downtown on 5 are new as of 2019.

Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

[mrsman]

I'm glad to see more control cities being used in San Diego.  Now they need to address some of the non interstate freeways.

Nexus 5X

[TheStranger]

The recent sign replacement project has established control cities for 5 southbound within San Diego County as follows:

San Diego
Downtown
Chula Vista
San Ysidro

805 southbound is generally signed now for Chula Vista starting at the split from Interstate 5.

15 south now has National City as the control from 8 southward.

Control cities south of downtown on 5 are new as of 2019.

Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

South of either 54 or 905, does 805's control city southbound change from Chula Vista to San Ysidro?

[michravera]

Any ideas for the use of control cities in the San Diego area?  I looked around on GSV and was surprised at how little control cities are being used.  There are many panels without control cities. 52, 56, 54, and 94 seem to have almost no control city signage and I know that there is no control city for SB I-15 south of 163.

In San Jose, CASR-87 often has no particular control city (especially southbound south of downtown). It would be reasonable to say that CASR-51 (signed as "business 80") in Sacramento (especially southbound) has none as well. Neither of these routes crosses a county line (and may not ever exit a city). It is difficult to post a reasonable "control city" for a route that stays within the same city.

[TheStranger]

In San Jose, CASR-87 often has no particular control city (especially southbound south of downtown). It would be reasonable to say that CASR-51 (signed as "business 80") in Sacramento (especially southbound) has none as well. Neither of these routes crosses a county line (and may not ever exit a city). It is difficult to post a reasonable "control city" for a route that stays within the same city.

Business 80 west (51 south) is signed for Sacramento at the split with I-80 near the Watt Avenue exit, though not sure there are any other destinations before the current terminus at US 50.

IIRC eastbound Business 80 has always been signed for Reno.

[stevashe]

In San Jose, CASR-87 often has no particular control city (especially southbound south of downtown). It would be reasonable to say that CASR-51 (signed as "business 80") in Sacramento (especially southbound) has none as well. Neither of these routes crosses a county line (and may not ever exit a city). It is difficult to post a reasonable "control city" for a route that stays within the same city.

This sign on the exit from I-280 south has the San Jose airport and "To CA 85" listed, which seem like reasonable choices to me.

[mrsman]

I have always felt that control cities are very important and helpful way to guide traffic along the freeways to their destinations.  Ideally, use nationally recognized cities, then large cities, regional cities, suburbs, and if nothing unique is applicable, the street (or intersecting highway) at the end of the freeway.

Remember, the freeway itself does not have to go to the control city, it just has to lead to a freeway that does.  This is why having 405 north (or 170 north) to Sacramento is reasonable and helpful.

I agree that the posted sign for CA-87 at I-280 has reasonable controls, to SJ Airport and to CA-85 (although my preference would be to use Gilroy, the southbound control for 85).

As far as Biz-80/CA-51 southbound, south of the CA-160 split, the signs should read Biz-80 (is it westbound or southbound) to US 50 and CA-99 with both San Francisco and Fresno as controls.  Similar signage should follow the freeway until the Oak Park Interchange.

EDITED TO ADD:  With that being said, there is generally very little to complain about with regard to Bay Area control cities.  They seem to be used on practically every freeway and IMO they generally use the right choice of cities.

[TheStranger]

As far as Biz-80/CA-51 southbound, south of the CA-160 split, the signs should read Biz-80 (is it westbound or southbound) to US 50 and CA-99 with both San Francisco and Fresno as controls.  Similar signage should follow the freeway until the Oak Park Interchange.

South of the American River, I think the Business 80 pullthrough signage has ceased completely (as US 50 west of Oak Park is no longer part of the route).  Instead this is what it looks like as of this year:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5798905,-121.464527,3a,15.5y,194.6h,96.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slbRNAmMYRQo4i8CogNT7bQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[mrsman]

As far as Biz-80/CA-51 southbound, south of the CA-160 split, the signs should read Biz-80 (is it westbound or southbound) to US 50 and CA-99 with both San Francisco and Fresno as controls.  Similar signage should follow the freeway until the Oak Park Interchange.

South of the American River, I think the Business 80 pullthrough signage has ceased completely (as US 50 west of Oak Park is no longer part of the route).  Instead this is what it looks like as of this year:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5798905,-121.464527,3a,15.5y,194.6h,96.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slbRNAmMYRQo4i8CogNT7bQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That point is close enough to the Oak Park Interchange that you don't need to mention Biz-80 anymore. 

Similarly, for a long time, the south end of US 101 was not referenced on the BGSes.  Instead you had signage of 10 San Bernardino / 5 Santa Ana starting from the 110 Freeway.  In recent years, this was changed to 101 south to 5/10/60 with no control cities at all. (Although one or two of the old  signs may still exist at times).

As far as Sacramento goes, it is interesting that there is no real consensus on the control for 50 east.  You see signs for both Placerville and South Lake Tahoe used interchangeably.

Here is a great on-ramp sign with control cities off Exposition Blvd, using both San Francisco and Fresno.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5978352,-121.446852,3a,75y,110.37h,73.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxuol4-Tae9dFFyrMe_kFlQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It seems that in the Arden Blvd area, most of the on-ramps for Biz-80 use San Francisco as a control, a legacy of the route being I-80, and encouraging Downtown Sac traffic to use CA-160 (which of course was once the old US 40 routing).

IMO, as many signs as possible in the area should use both Fresno and San Francisco, especially those that have room and are currently reading "Capital City Freeway".

[michravera]

As far as Biz-80/CA-51 southbound, south of the CA-160 split, the signs should read Biz-80 (is it westbound or southbound) to US 50 and CA-99 with both San Francisco and Fresno as controls.  Similar signage should follow the freeway until the Oak Park Interchange.

South of the American River, I think the Business 80 pullthrough signage has ceased completely (as US 50 west of Oak Park is no longer part of the route).  Instead this is what it looks like as of this year:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5798905,-121.464527,3a,15.5y,194.6h,96.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slbRNAmMYRQo4i8CogNT7bQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That point is close enough to the Oak Park Interchange that you don't need to mention Biz-80 anymore. 

Similarly, for a long time, the south end of US 101 was not referenced on the BGSes.  Instead you had signage of 10 San Bernardino / 5 Santa Ana starting from the 110 Freeway.  In recent years, this was changed to 101 south to 5/10/60 with no control cities at all. (Although one or two of the old  signs may still exist at times).

As far as Sacramento goes, it is interesting that there is no real consensus on the control for 50 east.  You see signs for both Placerville and South Lake Tahoe used interchangeably.

Here is a great on-ramp sign with control cities off Exposition Blvd, using both San Francisco and Fresno.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5978352,-121.446852,3a,75y,110.37h,73.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxuol4-Tae9dFFyrMe_kFlQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It seems that in the Arden Blvd area, most of the on-ramps for Biz-80 use San Francisco as a control, a legacy of the route being I-80, and encouraging Downtown Sac traffic to use CA-160 (which of course was once the old US 40 routing).

IMO, as many signs as possible in the area should use both Fresno and San Francisco, especially those that have room and are currently reading "Capital City Freeway".

"San Francisco / Fresno / South Lake Tahoe / Placerville"

[dbz77]

I have always felt that control cities are very important and helpful way to guide traffic along the freeways to their destinations.  Ideally, use nationally recognized cities, then large cities, regional cities, suburbs, and if nothing unique is applicable, the street (or intersecting highway) at the end of the freeway.

Remember, the freeway itself does not have to go to the control city, it just has to lead to a freeway that does.  This is why having 405 north (or 170 north) to Sacramento is reasonable and helpful.

It does help that 405 and 170 terminate at I-5 northbound.

One control city I do not understand is using Los Angeles for 91 West in orange County. From Riverside, most drivers use 60 west. From Corona, most drivers use 91 west to 71 north, which connects to 60 and 10. And it did not seem to be a legacy control city for its predecessor route in the area. (I-15 southbound uses Los Angeles because US 66, a predecessor route, actually reached downtown Los Angeles!)

[TheStranger]

One control city I do not understand is using Los Angeles for 91 West in orange County. From Riverside, most drivers use 60 west. From Corona, most drivers use 91 west to 71 north, which connects to 60 and 10. And it did not seem to be a legacy control city for its predecessor route in the area. (I-15 southbound uses Los Angeles because US 66, a predecessor route, actually reached downtown Los Angeles!)

An example of LA as Route 91's control city westbound:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.849059,-117.8167658,3a,75y,246.84h,91.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGgj6Iob2klbF8f8i98jC1g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

My guess is that it is used in part because it links to I-5 north but Long Beach or Gardena would be much more obvious westbound control choices IMO.

[mrsman]

The Riverside Fwy portion (east of I-5)  is older than the Artesia/Gardena/Redondo Beach Fwy portions.  When the 91 terminated at I-5, it made sense that L.A. was the control.

In the Inland Empire, some of the controls read "Beach Cities" to distinguish from L.A., in order to encourage traffic heading to L.A. to use CA-60 or I-10, which are far more direct.  There is some dispute as to what "Beach Cities" could refer to, it could refer to the OC beaches like Newport Beach (especially if you consider that 55's north control is/was Riverside), it could refer to US 91's original terminus of Long Beach (the 91 freeway still goes through the very northern portion of LB, but traffic is still encouraged to continue on 710), or it could refer to the South Bay Beach cities like Hermosa or Redondo (the freeway ends at Artesia Blvd which continues towards those cities).

My preference is in Riverside County, the westbound control should be Anaheim.  In OC, east of I-5, the control should continue to be L.A.  West of I-5, the control should be Gardena, as that is where the freeway ends.

In eastern OC, even though 91 does not go directly to L.A., it is still the most direct way of heading there.  Given the hills separating OC from Pomona, L.A. traffic in eastern Anaheim should take 91 to I-5, and not try to take 57 or a local canyon to 60.  I do see the argument for making Gardena the control in eastern OC, but since L.A. is so far better known, it should take precedence, even though you have to transfer to I-5 to actually get there.  IMO, this would be particularly helpful as there may be some lost Disney tourists all over Anaheim who will love guidance to get them back to L.A.

At 91/71, I agree that in order to discourage traffic through Santa Ana Canyon, Downtown L.A. bound traffic should take 71 to 60.  In SoCal, a control usually refers to the city's downtown, as we see that there are many freeways with L.A. controls well within L.A. city limits.  Of course, even from the Inland Empire, there are plenty of places that one would consider "L.A." whether part of the city or not, where 91 would make sense, particularly traffic to the Harbor or even LAX may prefer 91 to 60, depending on traffic conditions.

[JustDrive]

The Riverside Fwy portion (east of I-5)  is older than the Artesia/Gardena/Redondo Beach Fwy portions.  When the 91 terminated at I-5, it made sense that L.A. was the control.

Hmmmmm, so that explains why before the 5/91 interchange was rebuilt in the 90s, WB 91 to NB 5 was a left exit.