I-515/I-11 Control City discussion

[roadfro]

MOD NOTE: The first 54 posts of this thread were split off from the Interstate 11 alignment, through Vegas and points north thread on 3/30/19, since this post sparked a decent amount of topic drift in the original thread. –Roadfro

It figures. I just drove through and rephotographed all those signs! Oh well, just gives me a reason to return! lol

Did take my own photos of these on the few times I was through the Henderson Bowl exchange while out there. These are the initial ones I took on March 1st...


My photo of the one previously posted on Feb 26th...


Guide sign at the split for I-515 north and I-11 south...

These are the only two signs so far that have changed at the exchange, so the remaining ones will definitely be a part of this project beginning tonight. I'm surprised that the one at the split wasn't an APL though, given the middle lane departs for both north and southbound traffic...

Looking at the new photos, I'm really surprised NDOT didn't just make that first sign (on 215 EB) an extra 6 or 12 feet wide so they could add cardinal directions. It appears there used to be two separate signs here judging by the lighting (confirmed: Street View, April 2018).

Also interesting that, now that I-11 is signed, they didn't use Phoenix for the control city. I guess they're keeping more local destinations...

I'm glad that I-11 is getting signed between I-215 and the Spaghetti BowlRailroad Pass.

FTFY

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^
It's unlikely that Phoenix will show up as a control city until considerably more of I-11 is completed in AZ.  Since it'll be a relatively easy task to convert US 93 between NV and Kingman to Interstate standards, Kingman itself might see a role as a control city well in advance of anything further south. 

[ilpt4u]

^^^^^^^^
It's unlikely that Phoenix will show up as a control city until considerably more of I-11 is completed in AZ.  Since it'll be a relatively easy task to convert US 93 between NV and Kingman to Interstate standards, Kingman itself might see a role as a control city well in advance of anything further south.

Isn't Phoenix already the Southbound Control for I-515/US 93/95 (probably future I-11) at the Downtown Vegas Interchange with I-15?

If Phoenix can be signed Downtown, don't know why it can't further South along the corridor thru Metro Vegas

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^
It's unlikely that Phoenix will show up as a control city until considerably more of I-11 is completed in AZ.  Since it'll be a relatively easy task to convert US 93 between NV and Kingman to Interstate standards, Kingman itself might see a role as a control city well in advance of anything further south.

Isn't Phoenix already the Southbound Control for I-515/US 93/95 (probably future I-11) at the Downtown Vegas Interchange with I-15?

If Phoenix can be signed Downtown, don't know why it can't further South along the corridor thru Metro Vegas

Although IMO NDOT got ahead of itself by placing Phoenix on a downtown LV BGS, your point is taken.  The fact that they have followed up "downstream" with a local destination rather than anything out of state indicates more recent hesitation on their part to specify a destination in a jurisdiction over which they have no control.  Although NV-Kingman would seem to be the closest thing to a "slam-dunk" as far as prioritization of AZ I-11 upgrades goes -- in the process providing direct Interstate access to and from eastward I-40 -- it is far from a certainty at present.  Possibly NDOT is retaining the "Phoenix" cite on the Spaghetti Bowl BGS simply because of I-15 traffic coming down from Utah points; simply informing that traffic to "hang a left" at that point.  If & when new BGS's are deployed for I-11 over the former I-515, we'll see if "Phoenix" is retained as a control city or a more localized destination is substituted.  Phoenix and/or Kingman could possibly be relegated to a secondary sign such as "KINGMAN/PHOENIX Use I-11 SOUTH" intermixed with the main BGS's.     

[nexus73]

Why not have two control cities?  Boulder City for close in and Phoenix for distant strikes me as a good pairing.  California is not afraid of using two control cities on their freeways.  Does NDOT have a different policy?

Rick

[mrsman]

Even if I 11 doesn't get to Phoenix, us 93 gets you half way there. Phoenix is appropriate.

Nexus 5X

[roadfro]

^^^^^^^^
It's unlikely that Phoenix will show up as a control city until considerably more of I-11 is completed in AZ.  Since it'll be a relatively easy task to convert US 93 between NV and Kingman to Interstate standards, Kingman itself might see a role as a control city well in advance of anything further south.

Isn't Phoenix already the Southbound Control for I-515/US 93/95 (probably future I-11) at the Downtown Vegas Interchange with I-15?

If Phoenix can be signed Downtown, don't know why it can't further South along the corridor thru Metro Vegas

Although IMO NDOT got ahead of itself by placing Phoenix on a downtown LV BGS, your point is taken.  The fact that they have followed up "downstream" with a local destination rather than anything out of state indicates more recent hesitation on their part to specify a destination in a jurisdiction over which they have no control.  Although NV-Kingman would seem to be the closest thing to a "slam-dunk" as far as prioritization of AZ I-11 upgrades goes -- in the process providing direct Interstate access to and from eastward I-40 -- it is far from a certainty at present.  Possibly NDOT is retaining the "Phoenix" cite on the Spaghetti Bowl BGS simply because of I-15 traffic coming down from Utah points; simply informing that traffic to "hang a left" at that point.  If & when new BGS's are deployed for I-11 over the former I-515, we'll see if "Phoenix" is retained as a control city or a more localized destination is substituted.  Phoenix and/or Kingman could possibly be relegated to a secondary sign such as "KINGMAN/PHOENIX Use I-11 SOUTH" intermixed with the main BGS's.   

Phoenix has been the southbound control city on signs for I-515/US 93/US 95 South along I-15 at the Spaghetti Bowl for as long as I can remember, maybe even before 515 was signed circa 1995. Prior to Project Neon, a supplemental sign on I-15 made reference to Henderson and Boulder City via 515/93/95 South.

The lone pull-through on all of southbound 515 (at the Casino Center Blvd exit in downtown) also uses "Phoenix" (and ~25 years ago, "Needles" was on the sign as well).

Why not have two control cities?  Boulder City for close in and Phoenix for distant strikes me as a good pairing.  California is not afraid of using two control cities on their freeways.  Does NDOT have a different policy?

Since the late 1990s/early 2000s, NDOT tends to mostly conform to MUTCD recommendations of one control city per direction on freeway BGSs They also, generally, tend to favor more long-distance/"official" control cities over more local destinations.

[TimQuiQui]

Driving back from McCarron tonight, crews were replacing the rest of the signs on 215 approaching the 515/11 interchange. Every sign, starting two miles out, leading up to the interchange now has an I-11 shield.

[sparker]

Driving back from McCarron tonight, crews were replacing the rest of the signs on 215 approaching the 515/11 interchange. Every sign, starting two miles out, leading up to the interchange now has an I-11 shield.

Gotta give NDOT credit -- they're thorough and quick!  If this were Caltrans, the old signage would still be up four to five months after a designation or other informational change was finalized. 

[Sub-Urbanite]

Why not have two control cities?  Boulder City for close in and Phoenix for distant strikes me as a good pairing.  California is not afraid of using two control cities on their freeways.  Does NDOT have a different policy?

Since the late 1990s/early 2000s, NDOT tends to mostly conform to MUTCD recommendations of one control city per direction on freeway BGSs They also, generally, tend to favor more long-distance/"official" control cities over more local destinations.

I hate that. St. George is approaching 200,000 people in the metro area — it's about one-third the size of Reno! — but it doesn't appear on any BGS until well north of Las Vegas. You'd think San Diego, as one of the largest cities in America and the largest city actually on I-15 — would appear alongside Los Angeles. And, yeah, Boulder City or Kingman along with Phoenix would make a lot of sense.

[Kniwt]

St. George is approaching 200,000 people in the metro area

Closer to 165k, but yes, it's now ranked as the fastest-growing metro area in the nation. The projection is 500k by 2060-2070. (Where will the water come from? But that's another discussion.)

The absence of St. George on BGSs is a relic of its once-smaller size ... just like the lack of a Nielsen TV market in southern Utah. All of the big four broadcast networks are beamed in from way up in Salt Lake City (even though Las Vegas is much closer), and the only local TV news is whatever the stations in Salt Lake decide to cover. What's weird, though, is that when the Salt Lake stations do weather, they often give the St. George weather before Salt Lake. (It is often vastly different.)

[US 89]

St. George is approaching 200,000 people in the metro area

Closer to 165k, but yes, it's now ranked as the fastest-growing metro area in the nation. The projection is 500k by 2060-2070. (Where will the water come from? But that's another discussion.)

The absence of St. George on BGSs is a relic of its once-smaller size ... just like the lack of a Nielsen TV market in southern Utah. All of the big four broadcast networks are beamed in from way up in Salt Lake City (even though Las Vegas is much closer), and the only local TV news is whatever the stations in Salt Lake decide to cover. What's weird, though, is that when the Salt Lake stations do weather, they often give the St. George weather before Salt Lake. (It is often vastly different.)

I've said this before, but Provo and St. George really ought to be on the BGSs up in the Wasatch Front, instead of simply using Las Vegas.

The difference in weather is almost entirely due to the vast elevation difference between lower Washington County and the rest of the Salt Lake TV market. No populated places in that market are lower than 4000 feet elevation with the exception of the St George area, which gets down to 2500 or so (which explains why temperatures there are consistently 10-15 degrees warmer and palm trees can grow there). I think the rationale for doing the St George weather first is so they can finish off with the forecast that the majority of their viewers care about.

I do have to say, when it snowed in St George a few weeks ago, the Salt Lake stations did a great job of covering it.

Since the late 1990s/early 2000s, NDOT tends to mostly conform to MUTCD recommendations of one control city per direction on freeway BGSs They also, generally, tend to favor more long-distance/"official" control cities over more local destinations.

On the other hand, up in Reno the eastbound I-80 control city is Elko (instead of maybe using Salt Lake City instead). On the other hand, I-80 in Salt Lake uses Reno as its westbound control, bypassing Elko entirely.

[roadfro]

Since the late 1990s/early 2000s, NDOT tends to mostly conform to MUTCD recommendations of one control city per direction on freeway BGSs They also, generally, tend to favor more long-distance/"official" control cities over more local destinations.

On the other hand, up in Reno the eastbound I-80 control city is Elko (instead of maybe using Salt Lake City instead). On the other hand, I-80 in Salt Lake uses Reno as its westbound control, bypassing Elko entirely.

Prior to the I-80 rebuild through Reno-Sparks, "Salt Lake" was the control. They used Elko on the new signs, which is the official on whatever list it is that exists.

[roadman65]

I think for I-11 from Vegas  south should be Kingman. Then later when (or if) it goes all the way to Phoenix then Phoenix get a mention.  Right now for I-515, Boulder City is fine (that is if I read someone's post correctly) for it.  However, Phoenix (I distinctly remember seeing that when there in 2000) for I-515, that is a little jumping the gun a lot, however US 93 indirectly goes there from LV, so maybe at most iffy for that one.

[Rothman]

"It rained in St. George!"  Pres. Lorenzo Snow in Windows of Heaven.

[Sub-Urbanite]

(Where will the water come from? But that's another discussion.)

Getting off topic here, I'm paraphrasing someone but don't know who: "There will always be water, it's a question of how much we're willing to pay for it."

The absence of St. George on BGSs is a relic of its once-smaller size ... just like the lack of a Nielsen TV market in southern Utah. All of the big four broadcast networks are beamed in from way up in Salt Lake City (even though Las Vegas is much closer), and the only local TV news is whatever the stations in Salt Lake decide to cover. What's weird, though, is that when the Salt Lake stations do weather, they often give the St. George weather before Salt Lake. (It is often vastly different.)

The Las Vegas stations have over-the-air repeaters in St. George, and there was a time they were distributed on cable as well (which was great for football viewers, who had multiple Sunday afternoon game viewing options). That has since ended. It's an interesting dynamic, given how very close St. George is to Vegas but how very distant the cultural ties are compared to Salt Lake.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^
As St. George becomes more of a "magnet" resettlement area in contrast to its present position as a retirement center -- if and when business and/or corporate interests get a foothold in the region -- possibly as "spillover" from Las Vegas -- there will probably be something of a culture shift as the average residents' age decreases.  Right now, a combination of older retirees and Utah's historical LDS dominance has bolstered the intra-Utah connection to the Wasatch Valley; if the population diversifies, then Las Vegas -- or possibly L.A. (it's less than a day's drive) customs and practices might find a more receptive audience.   

[MantyMadTown]

As St. George becomes more of a "magnet" resettlement area in contrast to its present position as a retirement center -- if and when business and/or corporate interests get a foothold in the region -- possibly as "spillover" from Las Vegas -- there will probably be something of a culture shift as the average residents' age decreases.  Right now, a combination of older retirees and Utah's historical LDS dominance has bolstered the intra-Utah connection to the Wasatch Valley; if the population diversifies, then Las Vegas -- or possibly L.A. (it's less than a day's drive) customs and practices might find a more receptive audience.   

What do you mean? Can you explain more on that?

[sparker]

As St. George becomes more of a "magnet" resettlement area in contrast to its present position as a retirement center -- if and when business and/or corporate interests get a foothold in the region -- possibly as "spillover" from Las Vegas -- there will probably be something of a culture shift as the average residents' age decreases.  Right now, a combination of older retirees and Utah's historical LDS dominance has bolstered the intra-Utah connection to the Wasatch Valley; if the population diversifies, then Las Vegas -- or possibly L.A. (it's less than a day's drive) customs and practices might find a more receptive audience.   

What do you mean? Can you explain more on that?

Right now St. George is functioning more as an outsized retirement "mecca" than a variegated metro area; aside from the service and retail sectors addressing the increased population, it still doesn't have a major employment draw that would come from either/or manufacturing, warehousing, and distribution -- similar to what's happening SW on I-15 in and around LV.  Retirees tend in the aggregate to be somewhat more conservative than the general population of a more diversified region; it's likely that those retirees who've selected St. George as a settlement locale have done so because (a) of the Utah reputation for civic order, partially bolstered by the LDS affiliation, and (b) the relatively benign climate in terms of both weather and fiscal concerns (no consistent 110-degree days in summer like the Phoenix area, and a considerably lower cost of living than the retirement areas of the West Coast).  Ironically, if businesses eventually elect to locate facilities in St. George which subsequently attracts a significant influx of labor, the perception of the area as isolated enough to afford a modicum of safety and relative solitude -- in differentiation from most large metro areas in the Southwest -- may change to the point where it's no longer a retirement "magnet".  But that's probably decades down the line.   

[Mark68]

St George (actually, Washington City) has the closest In N Out to me (for now) so...

[Bobby5280]

The last news I heard suggested it would be "late 2020" before the first In-N-Out locations open along the Front Range in Colorado. They're planning 50 stores though. The first location is supposed to open in the Victory Ridge mixed use development on the North side of Colorado Springs, near the corner of Voyager Pkwy and Interquest Pkwy. The meat distribution center and corporate offices will be nearby at the corner of Federal Blvd and Interquest.

[Mark68]

The last news I heard suggested it would be "late 2020" before the first In-N-Out locations open along the Front Range in Colorado. They're planning 50 stores though. The first location is supposed to open in the Victory Ridge mixed use development on the North side of Colorado Springs, near the corner of Voyager Pkwy and Interquest Pkwy. The meat distribution center and corporate offices will be nearby at the corner of Federal Blvd and Interquest.

That was what I was thinking, too. So, the nearest to me, for now, is Washington City. That will change either in the next few months (if I move back to Cali) or in the next couple of years (if I stay).

[sparker]

St George (actually, Washington City) has the closest In N Out to me (for now) so...

OK -- now their SoCal connection is intact.  Good to know!

[US 89]

As St. George becomes more of a "magnet" resettlement area in contrast to its present position as a retirement center -- if and when business and/or corporate interests get a foothold in the region -- possibly as "spillover" from Las Vegas -- there will probably be something of a culture shift as the average residents' age decreases.  Right now, a combination of older retirees and Utah's historical LDS dominance has bolstered the intra-Utah connection to the Wasatch Valley; if the population diversifies, then Las Vegas -- or possibly L.A. (it's less than a day's drive) customs and practices might find a more receptive audience.   

What do you mean? Can you explain more on that?

Right now St. George is functioning more as an outsized retirement "mecca" than a variegated metro area; aside from the service and retail sectors addressing the increased population, it still doesn't have a major employment draw that would come from either/or manufacturing, warehousing, and distribution -- similar to what's happening SW on I-15 in and around LV.  Retirees tend in the aggregate to be somewhat more conservative than the general population of a more diversified region; it's likely that those retirees who've selected St. George as a settlement locale have done so because (a) of the Utah reputation for civic order, partially bolstered by the LDS affiliation, and (b) the relatively benign climate in terms of both weather and fiscal concerns (no consistent 110-degree days in summer like the Phoenix area, and a considerably lower cost of living than the retirement areas of the West Coast).  Ironically, if businesses eventually elect to locate facilities in St. George which subsequently attracts a significant influx of labor, the perception of the area as isolated enough to afford a modicum of safety and relative solitude -- in differentiation from most large metro areas in the Southwest -- may change to the point where it's no longer a retirement "magnet".  But that's probably decades down the line.

Believe it or not, St. George has more of an economy than just retirement and tourism. SkyWest Airlines' corporate headquarters is located there, and Walmart and Family Dollar both operate major distribution centers in the area -- the Walmart one is right next to I-15 north of the city.

St George (actually, Washington City) has the closest In N Out to me (for now) so...

OK -- now their SoCal connection is intact.  Good to know!

Except there are also three In-N-Out locations in the greater Salt Lake area, so I'm not sure if we can make a comparison to SoCal based on that alone.

[sparker]

^^^^^^^^
My reply above was purely sarcastic.  I apologize if it sounded like it was based in extensive research (thought the presence of the emoji would give it away!).