Daylight Saving Time In The US

[1995hoo]

.....most fun I've had with time zones was on the flight shown in my avatar at left. A friend of mine shot that video at Heathrow at 18.45 on a Sunday. The flight landed at JFK at 17.06 the same afternoon. Five-hour time difference, flight took 3 hours 21 minutes. Hence "arrive before you leave.")

I've wondered about your avatar......Cool!!

I'm in that picture, you just can't see me there in Seat 20D. 

[broadhurst04]

I've started calling it Exactly The Same Amount Of Daylight Time, since it doesn't save one second of daylight.

It's not intended to save daylight. The savings is supposed to come on your electric bill. The idea being that if an hour of daylight is shifted into the early evening (when most people are at home), you'll use less electricity because you won't need to turn lights on in your house until one hour later than you otherwise would.

[english si]

It's not intended to save daylight. The savings is supposed to come on your electric bill. The idea being that if an hour of daylight is shifted into the early evening (when most people are at home), you'll use less electricity because you won't need to turn lights on in your house until one hour later than you otherwise would.

Except that it doesn't do much, if anything, on that front and (in warmer areas) may do more harm than good.

And here's the social jet lag video - far from being early birds it's the opposite, arguing against the tyranny of early birds making us get up early on clock time and stupid time zone boundaries  making clock time not in sync with solar time and body time (which are linked, but how is different for different people) - that the social time is ahead of the solar time. DST in winter just exacerbates that.

[hbelkins]

Watching all of you hatin' on DST makes me laugh. I like it. I was actually able to do some things outside this afternoon when I got home from work that I wouldn't have been able to do last week because of a lack of daylight. What I hate is falling back in autumn.

And Central Time. I hate Central Time. I'm glad my part of Kentucky is in the Eastern Time Zone. I know that we were in Central Time temporarily a couple of times.

[vdeane]

And here's the social jet lag video - far from being early birds it's the opposite, arguing against the tyranny of early birds making us get up early on clock time and stupid time zone boundaries  making clock time not in sync with solar time and body time (which are linked, but how is different for different people) - that the social time is ahead of the solar time. DST in winter just exacerbates that.

That's what I figured from the articles, but that doesn't stop the media from trying to spin it as "get up early all the time".

[A.J. Bertin]

I don't understand why so many people complain about Daylight Saving Time. I think people who complain about the loss of one hour of sleep are making it to be a bigger deal than it has to be. Who cares... it's just ONE HOUR. It's not like you're losing three or four hours.

I personally like DST and hope it sticks around. I like how the daylight gets shifted later into the evening hours. It's nice. Plus, I agree with the person who said that extra daylight in the morning hours is not necessary - unless you're talking about kids walking to school or waiting for a bus in the dark. Is it really that bad? I think not!

[corco]

I'm not saying the shift might not be worth it- I definitely enjoyed the extra hour of sunlight yesterday afternoon and used that time to grill a steak and start doing yardwork as the snow melts.

I think the mass one hour shift is harder than it is when traveling because everything in your exact normal routine happens exactly as usual, just one hour earlier. That's far more disorienting than traveling to Nebraska or something where your routine is totally different and you don't even notice that one hour difference.

Until four months ago, I'd worked the last two years doing 4 overnights a week and then trying to live a normal life during the school day the rest of the week- body in constant state of not having any sort of cycle. I found that adjustment back and forth easier than the one hour shift now that I'm in an established routine.

[NWI_Irish96]

I don't understand why so many people complain about Daylight Saving Time. I think people who complain about the loss of one hour of sleep are making it to be a bigger deal than it has to be. Who cares... it's just ONE HOUR. It's not like you're losing three or four hours.

I personally like DST and hope it sticks around. I like how the daylight gets shifted later into the evening hours. It's nice. Plus, I agree with the person who said that extra daylight in the morning hours is not necessary - unless you're talking about kids walking to school or waiting for a bus in the dark. Is it really that bad? I think not!

Kids getting injured/killed while waiting for school buses in the dark?  Yes, I think that's bad.  How obscenely selfish of me not to want that to happen to kids!

[agentsteel53]

I'm not saying the shift might not be worth it- I definitely enjoyed the extra hour of sunlight yesterday afternoon and used that time to grill a steak and start doing yardwork as the snow melts.

I could do the same thing by going to work an hour earlier. 

I think the mass one hour shift is harder than it is when traveling because everything in your exact normal routine happens exactly as usual, just one hour earlier. That's far more disorienting than traveling to Nebraska or something where your routine is totally different and you don't even notice that one hour difference.

bingo.  people compare it to jet lag, except a major component of jet lag is "wow, I was just sitting in an awful metal tube for several hours", so of course you're gonna feel disoriented. 

[agentsteel53]

Watching all of you hatin' on DST makes me laugh. I like it. I was actually able to do some things outside this afternoon when I got home from work that I wouldn't have been able to do last week because of a lack of daylight. What I hate is falling back in autumn.

I very rarely pay it much regard in the fall.  "oh, right, an extra hour." and I may or may not wake up earlier that Sunday.

[kkt]

Kids getting injured/killed while waiting for school buses in the dark?  Yes, I think that's bad.  How obscenely selfish of me not to want that to happen to kids!

Not so much "waiting for school buses" but walking to school.  See other thread about drivers (who I think must not have kids) wanting to drive 30+ mph in school zones even when it's dark.

[swbrotha100]

Watching all of you hatin' on DST makes me laugh. I like it. I was actually able to do some things outside this afternoon when I got home from work that I wouldn't have been able to do last week because of a lack of daylight. What I hate is falling back in autumn.

And Central Time. I hate Central Time. I'm glad my part of Kentucky is in the Eastern Time Zone. I know that we were in Central Time temporarily a couple of times.

What's so bad about Central Time?

[kphoger]

My favorite is when people wish we would switch to full-time Daylight Savings Time.  That's the exact same thing as me wishing we would abandon Daylight Savings Time altogether–just off by one hour.  If having an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon is that important to you, and getting up in the dark is no problem for you, then what you really want is for business to be conducted one hour earlier every day; no need to call it Daylight Savings Time at all.  We're really wishing for the same thing, but we have different natural schedules.

[J N Winkler]

If having an extra hour of daylight in the afternoon is that important to you, and getting up in the dark is no problem for you, then what you really want is for business to be conducted one hour earlier every day; no need to call it Daylight Savings Time at all.

"Full-time DST" is really just convenient shorthand compared to "move to the next time zone east," which in context can be ambiguous because there are often large differences between legal and geographical time zones and it is not always clear which is meant.  It is also readily understood because discussion as to these preferences typically occurs only near a DST time change.

I suspect what most people object to is the time change, not the time zone assignment as such, and given a choice between two possible time zone assignments without DST and the appropriate geographical time zone with DST, most people would rank the less favorable of the DST-free time zone assignments above the correct time zone with DST.  There are good reasons most countries have needed some type of forcing event, such as a war, to adopt DST for the first time, with retention or reinstatement of DST in peacetime being driven by ex ante lobbies.  Meanwhile, there are several countries--such as Russia--which have gone over to "full-time DST."

[hbelkins]

Watching all of you hatin' on DST makes me laugh. I like it. I was actually able to do some things outside this afternoon when I got home from work that I wouldn't have been able to do last week because of a lack of daylight. What I hate is falling back in autumn.

And Central Time. I hate Central Time. I'm glad my part of Kentucky is in the Eastern Time Zone. I know that we were in Central Time temporarily a couple of times.

What's so bad about Central Time?

I just hate adjusting to it when I travel.

[Dougtone]

Watching all of you hatin' on DST makes me laugh. I like it. I was actually able to do some things outside this afternoon when I got home from work that I wouldn't have been able to do last week because of a lack of daylight. What I hate is falling back in autumn.

We may not agree on everything, H.B., but I do agree with you on this.  I may be an early riser, but I like having that extra hour of sunlight in the evening hours.

[english si]

Meanwhile, there are several countries--such as Russia--which have gone over to "full-time DST."

And states like Indiana, Kentucky, countries like France and Spain, etc that basically have moved to full time DST, with double DST (or basically one time zone to the east). Which of course makes hbelkins more strange.

Watching all of you hatin' on DST makes me laugh. I like it. I was actually able to do some things outside this afternoon when I got home from work that I wouldn't have been able to do last week because of a lack of daylight. What I hate is falling back in autumn.

You must really finish work late - not only are you far enough south and this a time of year to be pretty much on the 6pm sunset with solar noon at 12pm, but you are also on year-round DST due to not being under the natural time zone of Central, so it's at least half an hour later than that. Add an hour to that and you are looking at you returning at 7pm. Given I've been informed that America's standard is a 40 hour week (rather than a 35 hour week, though we might do 8.30 or 8 or 9 to 5 or 5.30 for 37.5 or 40 hour official weeks and many people work more), that means starting late, surely? You must surely have a lot of light in the morning for doing those chores!

DST is great. DST in winter (inc late October, which is on a no-change situation) isn't great. The first few weeks of DST is so-so on benefit, especially in America with the earlier start. I certainly wasn't hatin' on DST - I was hating on the hate of standard time and the incomprehensible love of DST so much to have it all year round! Also the non-SAD sufferers declaration that getting up in the dark is no biggy.

[hbelkins]

Kentucky on year-round DST? WTF?

I typically get home between 5:30 and 6. By the time I say hello to my wife and get my clothes changed, even in March there's very little daylight left to get much of anything done outside.

[english si]

Kentucky on year-round DST? WTF?

Sorry, it's slightly further east than I thought - the middle is only about 5 hours 20 minutes behind Greenwich, not the 5 hours 40 minutes I thought. Its previous toying with Central time, and Indiana's oddness made me think it was naturally just inside the natural Central Time longitudes, but had moved to Eastern, effectively giving it DST all year round, with double in the summer.

I also need to remember that the sun sets quicker there - here, about 3 minutes behind Greenwich, it's light enough to not need a light at 1830 here at the moment (though car headlights are needed, due to the darkening effect of windshields), but you being more minutes behind the theoretical time doesn't mean you'd have a 1850 time before it gets too dark, due to being further south - and 45 minutes/an hour is enough time to do some chores outside.

Most of Alaska has year round DST, with double in the summer - only the panhandle and the eastern edge is in the -9 zone geographically and Nome is in the middle of -11.

Spain is the worst - it wasn't forced onto Berlin Time by the Nazis (Netherlands were +0:20, France GMT before invasion, and just haven't gone back), but chose to go CET, despite being almost all in the western hemisphere and a small bit has natural time more than one and a half hours off CET (so 2.5 hours in summer). Alaska, at least, is mostly empty so it doesn't matter as much!

[kkt]

Given I've been informed that America's standard is a 40 hour week (rather than a 35 hour week, though we might do 8.30 or 8 or 9 to 5 or 5.30 for 37.5 or 40 hour official weeks and many people work more), that means starting late, surely? You must surely have a lot of light in the morning for doing those chores!

40 hours/week is official "full time", not including lunch.  But many people work longer, either through working two or more "part time" jobs or by being salaried and exempt from overtime or by working "off the clock" by loyalty to the job or feeling that they'll look bad if they don't.

[vdeane]

Kids getting injured/killed while waiting for school buses in the dark?  Yes, I think that's bad.  How obscenely selfish of me not to want that to happen to kids!

Not so much "waiting for school buses" but walking to school.  See other thread about drivers (who I think must not have kids) wanting to drive 30+ mph in school zones even when it's dark.

People still walk to school in the morning?  In my district, all the walkers were driven in the morning by their parents on the way to work; they only walked home in the afternoon.  Why?  Because they could.

Given I've been informed that America's standard is a 40 hour week (rather than a 35 hour week, though we might do 8.30 or 8 or 9 to 5 or 5.30 for 37.5 or 40 hour official weeks and many people work more), that means starting late, surely? You must surely have a lot of light in the morning for doing those chores!

40 hours/week is official "full time", not including lunch.  But many people work longer, either through working two or more "part time" jobs or by being salaried and exempt from overtime or by working "off the clock" by loyalty to the job or feeling that they'll look bad if they don't.

And many places are adopting official 60 hour work weeks.

[NWI_Irish96]

Kentucky on year-round DST? WTF?

"Year-round DST" is another way of saying that an area is one time zone to the east of where it should be.  75 degrees west longitude is the actual spot on the globe that is 5 hours west of the prime meridian.  90 degrees west is exactly 6 hours west.  To get your sunlight schedule closest to the "natural setting" you would split the difference at 82.5 degrees and east of there would be Eastern time and west of there would be Central.  82.5 degrees cuts through the very eastern portion of Kentucky, so about 95% of Kentucky is naturally in the Central time zone.

Lexington is at about 84.5 degrees and is on Eastern time, so they are already getting sunsets 38 minutes later than what would be natural and DST makes that 1:38.

Louisville is at about 85.7 degrees and is also on Eastern time, so they are already getting sunsets 43 minutes later than what would be natural and DST makes that 1:43.

For an even more extreme example, Terre Haute, IN is at 87.4 degrees and is also on Eastern time, so they are getting sunsets 50 minutes later than natural with DST making it 1:50.

[kphoger]

China is/was all on one time zone, so the western part of the country was several hours "off" of what would be the natural time.  That didn't mean people were working in the middle of the night–just that they started work at an odd "time" on the clock.  All of this really boils down to what time you want to start work.

[kkt]

Not so much "waiting for school buses" but walking to school.  See other thread about drivers (who I think must not have kids) wanting to drive 30+ mph in school zones even when it's dark.

People still walk to school in the morning?  In my district, all the walkers were driven in the morning by their parents on the way to work; they only walked home in the afternoon.  Why?  Because they could.

Yes, they do.  Our district does not provide busing for students who live less than 1/2 mile from school, and in most cases by the time they're two miles away they're closer to some other school, so there's a small busing donut around each school.  If the students live within walking distance, why drive them?  Helicopter parents?  Genuinely dangerous neighborhood?

[texaskdog]

The sun should come up in late morning, giving us more evening hours to do things.  Daylight Savings Time should be year round and how about one more hour of it?