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I-83 York County

Started by jpi, March 15, 2018, 08:19:37 AM

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jpi

Came across this last night, this would widen 83 to 8 lanes on the north side of my home town, a very much needed project.
https://www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/03/14/interstate-83-widening-roundabouts-along-north-george-street-part-penndots-plans/408130002/
Jason Ilyes
JPI
Lebanon, TN
Home Of The Barrel


seicer

Will the Sherman Road bridge over I-83 be removed? The eastbound lanes are adjacent to a creek - which would have to be covered if lanes are added.

froggie

For clarification, it won't be a continuous 8 lanes.  There will be 6 through lanes plus auxiliary lanes between interchanges.

jpi

Quote from: seicer on March 15, 2018, 09:22:32 AM
Will the Sherman Road bridge over I-83 be removed? The eastbound lanes are adjacent to a creek - which would have to be covered if lanes are added.
I am pretty sure it will still be in place, PENNDOT will probably re-route the creek like they did with the current Mt Rose Ave interchange and yes, this will be 6 lanes with auxiliary lanes, a HUGE improvement over the current design which has seen more then its share of accidents over the years, this was the very first interstate I drove on, when I had my learners permit!
Jason Ilyes
JPI
Lebanon, TN
Home Of The Barrel

seicer

I didn't realize that segments south are constrained to just four lanes - and were recently rebuilt.

froggie

^ Aside from the ongoing Mt Rose Ave interchange, the only segments that were "recently rebuilt" are at the south end of York (specifically Exits 14 & 15) and points south of there, but yes, there's a problem spot north of Exit 15 that would be difficult (and expensive) to widen due to the narrow right-of-way.

epzik8

I really love I-83 in York County. One of my home exits is exit 4, Shrewsbury.
From the land of red, white, yellow and black.
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CentralPAGal

Quote from: seicer on March 15, 2018, 09:22:32 AM
Will the Sherman Road bridge over I-83 be removed?

If I'm not mistaken, they just rebuilt that bridge and an adjacent one (can't remember the road name atm) only about 6 or 7 years ago.
Clinched:
I: 83, 97, 176, 180 (PA), 270 (MD), 283, 395 (MD), 470 (OH-WV), 471, 795 (MD)
Traveled:
I: 70, 71, 75, 76 (E), 78, 79, 80, 81, 86 (E), 95, 99, 270 (OH), 275 (KY-IN-OH), 376, 495 (MD-VA), 579, 595 (MD), 695 (MD)
US: 1, 9, 11, 13, 15, 22, 25, 30, 40, 42, 50, 113, 119, 127, 209, 220, 222, 301

froggie

^^ Presuming you're referring to Sherman St.  And yes, that bridge was replaced in 2012.  The nearby Eberts Ln overpass was replaced a year or two prior.

Strider

Are they going to widen I-83 to 6 lanes in York area as according to the plan? I know they are doing some work around Harrisburg. Traffic in York area is very bad.

cpzilliacus

I presume that PennDOT and the local governments in the area have not considered reconstruction of the terrible interchange at I-83 and U.S. 30 (Arsenal Road) nor removal of the traffic signals east of the interchange.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

#11
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2018, 07:51:37 PM
I-83 in PA in general seems very narrow and outdated. A widening would be a major improvement for traffic flow. Some proper shoulders would be nice, too.

Pennsylvania has the worst and most-outdated Interstates that I have driven on.

There are some bad and badly-outdated sections of Interstate to be found outside of Pennsylvania (Cross-Bronx Expressway, and Connecticut Turnpike sections of I-95; most of I-95 between Lumberton, N.C. and Selma, N.C.; most of the "cross-state" part of I-70 in Missouri between Blue Springs and Wentzville come to mind), but still, Penn's Woods is still the champ of awful, with most of the "free" parts of I-70, most of I-83; the Sure-Kill Expressway section of I-76; much of I-78; and I-81 from Clarks Summit to the New York border being substandard.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

seicer

I just drove I-83 for the first time this weekend and yes, it's one of the most outdated in the nation. I would say it is worse than I-70 based on traffic counts and the cities it goes through - but it can be explained partly because of the road's age, how it was built and then upgraded, and maintained. Compare that to Maryland's section, which I presume is newer - and it has an entirely different context. Smooth pavement, wide central reservation, expanse interchanges.

Strider

Quote from: seicer on March 19, 2018, 09:24:48 AM
I just drove I-83 for the first time this weekend and yes, it's one of the most outdated in the nation. I would say it is worse than I-70 based on traffic counts and the cities it goes through - but it can be explained partly because of the road's age, how it was built and then upgraded, and maintained. Compare that to Maryland's section, which I presume is newer - and it has an entirely different context. Smooth pavement, wide central reservation, expanse interchanges.


I believe most of I-83 was built on a former US 111 alignment in PA (except the section where I-83 bypasses York), in which may explained its outdated pavement.

froggie

83's completion on both sides of the state line was right around the same time...late '50s.  The entire segment from Baltimore to Harrisburgh was planned and much of the construction began before Congress approved the funding mechanism for the Interstate system in 1956.  And yes, it was initially planned as a US 111 replacement.

What you're seeing is the different design philosophies between the two states.  Pennsylvania at the time firmly believed in narrow medians (as evidenced by most Turnpike segments), while Maryland opted for wider medians even in the 1950s.

seicer

Gotcha. When I was looking at the current aerials and then the historic aerials - I saw that they were built at around the same time.

I was surprised that much of Maryland's segment was built as two-lane with some crude interchanges that were later either entirely upgraded or partially renovated.

Beltway

Quote from: froggie on March 19, 2018, 02:49:30 PM
83's completion on both sides of the state line was right around the same time...late '50s.  The entire segment from Baltimore to Harrisburgh was planned and much of the construction began before Congress approved the funding mechanism for the Interstate system in 1956.  And yes, it was initially planned as a US 111 replacement.
What you're seeing is the different design philosophies between the two states.  Pennsylvania at the time firmly believed in narrow medians (as evidenced by most Turnpike segments), while Maryland opted for wider medians even in the 1950s.

Nearly all states opted for medians at least 40 feet wide and with many wider, on freeways.

The AADTs on the rural sections of PA I-83 are in the 41,000 to 48,000 range.  That is clear 6-lane warrants.  Hopefully PennDOT will start building 6-lane total rebuild projects on I-83 that are like the ones on the Turnpike.
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ixnay

Quote from: Beltway on March 19, 2018, 11:38:41 PMThe AADTs on the rural sections of PA I-83 are in the 41,000 to 48,000 range.  That is clear 6-lane warrants. 

What ADDT is considered the threshold between 4-lane sufficiency and need for 6 lanes?

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

Alps

Quote from: ixnay on March 20, 2018, 07:37:33 AM
Quote from: Beltway on March 19, 2018, 11:38:41 PMThe AADTs on the rural sections of PA I-83 are in the 41,000 to 48,000 range.  That is clear 6-lane warrants. 

What ADDT is considered the threshold between 4-lane sufficiency and need for 6 lanes?

ixnay
Typically 30,000 is the lower threshold to start considering it, and 60,000 is the point that you need it. Anything between is just gravy.

Roadsguy

What about eight lanes? Ten? Traffic count data is readily available, but it's often hard to tell just how behind the curve some widening projects are, especially considering states like NC which widen roads with less than 70,000 to eight lanes, like parts of I-85.
Mileage-based exit numbering implies the existence of mileage-cringe exit numbering.

Beltway

Quote from: Alps on March 20, 2018, 08:12:11 AM
Quote from: ixnay on March 20, 2018, 07:37:33 AM
Quote from: Beltway on March 19, 2018, 11:38:41 PMThe AADTs on the rural sections of PA I-83 are in the 41,000 to 48,000 range.  That is clear 6-lane warrants. 
What ADDT is considered the threshold between 4-lane sufficiency and need for 6 lanes?
ixnay
Typically 30,000 is the lower threshold to start considering it, and 60,000 is the point that you need it. Anything between is just gravy.

Is that for urban freeways?  40-45,000 AADT is a lot less tolerable on long sections of rural freeways such as on I-83.
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noelbotevera

I'm aware this post is mostly about I-83 in Dauphin County, but I feel this thread is appropriate for this post. I could crosspost this to the main PA thread, however.

I really hope they're able to widen I-83 north of exit 43. The 19th Street bridge is a bottleneck, and I-83 between exits 44-47 are crammed in between Paxton Street. At the very least, they could modernize it a bit. This section is extremely outdated - I believe it dates to the US 230 bypass. Are there plans to widen this section, or will this bottleneck remain?

Oh yeah, and if you want to see how outdated this section is...look at exits 40A and 39B as an example. Practically every interchange between PA 382 and PA 581 (exits 33-41) are RIROs.

Alps

Quote from: Roadsguy on March 20, 2018, 11:07:06 AM
What about eight lanes? Ten? Traffic count data is readily available, but it's often hard to tell just how behind the curve some widening projects are, especially considering states like NC which widen roads with less than 70,000 to eight lanes, like parts of I-85.
They probably were going to widen it to 6 lanes now, and decided, based on forecast growth in NC, to do 8 while they were there so they wouldn't have to widen for a long time.

jemacedo9

The problem with PA is...in looking at the 2016 AADT map, there are a couple dozen 4-lane freeways that have more AADT than I-83 York County. In an utopian world (read - unlimited funding), it would be nice...and especially as this stretch is substandard, maybe that might rank it higher than, say, US 222 just north of Lancaster that gets 60K but is more of standard design. But it' always a prioritization game. The adding of aux lanes is a cheaper alternative to reduce congestion in some of the small most congested stretches...this one, US 422 over the Schuylkill River, and I-78 between PA 100 and the US 22 split near Allentown are examples of this. 

PA is widening I-83 south of I-81 (sorely needed), and soon US 30 near Downingtown, and I believe eventually I-80 east of I-380...but too many needs, not enough funding.

I still wait for the day to see what happens with the Schuylkill Expwy and the Parkway East (I-376)...

Beltway

Quote from: jemacedo9 on March 20, 2018, 08:13:03 PM
The problem with PA is...in looking at the 2016 AADT map, there are a couple dozen 4-lane freeways that have more AADT than I-83 York County. In an utopian world (read - unlimited funding), it would be nice...and especially as this stretch is substandard, maybe that might rank it higher than, say, US 222 just north of Lancaster that gets 60K but is more of standard design.

Yes, but most of US-222 between Lancaster and Reading is in the 40ish range, and it is not a mainline Interstate highway.

Quote from: jemacedo9 on March 20, 2018, 08:13:03 PM
PA is widening I-83 south of I-81 (sorely needed), and soon US 30 near Downingtown, and I believe eventually I-80 east of I-380...but too many needs, not enough funding.
I still wait for the day to see what happens with the Schuylkill Expwy and the Parkway East (I-376)...

The Penn-Lincoln Parkway (or is that name obsolete?) is being addressed by the Southern Beltway and the last leg of the MFE, at least there is a completed location study and NEPA process for those highways, and they will provide major alternative routing and traffic relief to the Penn-Lincoln Parkway.   The Squirrel Hill Tunnel only carries about 56,000 AADT, nothing like the 140,000 AADT ranges for the 4-lane sections of the Surekill Expressway.

PennDOT and PCT have been making a lot of advances in the last 20 years, and who knows, in the near future they may finally rebuild the Surekill into a modern 8-lane freeway, at least they should jump on the Montgomery County section first and then figure out how to widen thru Fairmount Park and thru 30th Street.
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