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Fake river boundaries

Started by Scott5114, September 20, 2020, 11:57:11 PM

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jeffandnicole

Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 21, 2020, 08:14:16 AM
I'm assuming places like this are not what's being looked for? Or, at least, it wouldn't be relevant unless there was a road crossing there.



Quote from: GenExpwy on September 21, 2020, 03:31:59 AM
My mother always insisted the (old) US 15 bridge over the Cowanesque River at Lawrenceville PA was exactly on the New York—Pennsylvania line (it's actually about 600 feet north in New York). The river under the bridges on new US 15/future I-99 is about 1200 feet from the state line, but in Pennsylvania.

That's a good one. I can never quite seem to place exactly where the state line is, but that bridge has always been a good enough approximation, even though I know (obviously) that the NY/PA line is the 42nd parallel, not the Cowanesque* River.

*Actually marked as a branch of the Tioga River on Google Maps.

I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St, but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes, and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.

Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?


froggie

NC/VA 186 at the Meherrin River bridge is an example of this.  State line signs are at either end of the bridge, even though the bridge is wholly within Virginia with approximately 150ft of road on the southwest side of the bridge still in Virginia.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: US 89 on September 22, 2020, 12:46:42 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2020, 09:36:49 PM
NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.

I'm not seeing it on GSV's 2018 imagery, but I'm fairly certain the Montana-Wyoming border was signed on US 20 when I drove through Yellowstone this past summer. I can't think of any other signed state boundaries on NPS roads I've been on.

I don't know what the deal with NPS and state lines is about.   They should be posted, if for no other reason than to let NPS law enforcement know what state they are in - if they give someone a traffic summons, a federal court that would hear a challenge to the ticket depends on what state (or other jurisdiction, like D.C. or Puerto Rico and so on) depends on the state and maybe county where it was issued. Putting the wrong state on such a document probably makes it invalid.  Now I know that the New Jersey Turnpike does not sign counties or municipalities, but the NJSP issues every trooper on the turnpike some sort of lookup table which shows municipalities by mile marker.

Quote from: US 89 on September 22, 2020, 12:46:42 AM
As far as the thread goes, the closest thing I can think of in Utah is the Millard/Sevier County boundary and a few others like it. Like a lot of other county boundaries in the mountainous western US, it follows a drainage divide - but instead of being defined on the divide exactly, it is defined along section lines that roughly approximate the divide. I-70 and US 50 both cross the county line within a half-mile of the point where they cross the ridgeline.

Not just in the West either.  There are a lot of county boundaries (some state lines too) that follow the ridgelines in the East as well.  The Blue Ridge serves as a county boundary all the way across Virginia except at the northernmost part approaching the Potomac River, where it is a state boundary between Loudoun County, Virginia and Jefferson County, West Virginia.  North of the border into Maryland, it is again a county boundary between Washington County, Maryland and Frederick County, Maryland.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

D-Dey65

#28
I believe there are two examples of this when US 98 and US 301 cross the Withlacoochee River.

Northwest-bound US 98 crosses a bridge over the Withlachoochee River north of Trilby in Pasco County, but doesn't cross the Pasco-Hernando County Line until just south of the Riverdale development. Southbound US 301 crosses a bridge over the river far south of Ridge Manor in Hernando County, but doesn't cross the Hernando-Pasco county line until just before this abandoned house on the west side of the road.

Also, since this is my 2626th post, I think I'll celebrate in my usual way.


ethanhopkin14

Honorable mention would be this strange situation.  I know it has been said that it doesn't count when a river's course isn't the same as it was when the state line was drawn, but this is extreme.  The Rio Grande used to separate New Mexico from Texas, and it still does for a small amount, but the river was channelized and shifted (by man, not erosion) many miles to the east, leaving a meandering state line between the two states that looks like a river.  It so weird because it's the only case I can think of where the old river was "abandoned" to the extent that it was filled in so there is almost no evidence of there being a river where the state line actually is.  Because of this, there are lots of structures that are in both states.  At one point the state line bisects a bridge over the new river.  Unfortunately, the state line isn't signed because it is a local road, but if it were, it would appear that the Rio Grande was the Texas/New Mexico State Line. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8459579,-106.604433,3a,17.5y,287.36h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shdfVuPInWJDONuyS1d-I4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

At another point, the meandering state line follows a drainage ditch, so that people crossing it think the ditch is the boundary. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8548754,-106.6237875,3a,16y,245.25h,88.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1MbercnYDsG9IBUMxmz9ZA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Another honorable mention is the backward affect:  boundaries that on a map appear to be a river or creek, but in reality are just a squiggly line.  The northern boundary of Travis County, Texas between it and Williamson county meanders for miles, and appears to follow a river/creek, but there was never a river/creek here and may just be a product of choppy abstract lines. 

ErmineNotyours

Quote from: US 89 on September 22, 2020, 12:46:42 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2020, 09:36:49 PM
NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.

I'm not seeing it on GSV's 2018 imagery, but I'm fairly certain the Montana-Wyoming border was signed on US 20 the West Entrance Road when I drove through Yellowstone this past summer. I can't think of any other signed state boundaries on NPS roads I've been on.


It is signed on the North Entrance Road: https://goo.gl/maps/fQ7cqqEWUf6VFG1s5

bwana39

I am going to add a YEAH, BUT

While some of these examples are indeed anomalies that just happen, still others have to do with the boundary being the route of the river at a past date. There places along the lower Mississippi where the boundary is nearly 10 miles from the current river channel to the state line. I cannot think of any that have roads through the oxbow peninsulas, but if there were, it would be really confusing.  Technically the US-82 bridge at Greenville both landings are in Arkansas.  The approach on the Mississippi side is partly in Arkansas, but the state line falls before east bank levee.

The Arkansas / Texas border at Index on US-71 is one of these. The highway signs don't help it any.
The Northbound Bridge leaves Miller County Arkansas and arrives in Little River County Arkansas.
The Southbound Bridge Leaves Little River County Arkansas and arrives in Bowie County TX. 
Then again, All the Texas Bridges on the Red River TECHNICALLY leave and arrive in the other state because Technically the other state controls to the high water mark.


Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: bwana39 on September 25, 2020, 11:59:45 AM
I am going to add a YEAH, BUT

While some of these examples are indeed anomalies that just happen, still others have to do with the boundary being the route of the river at a past date. There places along the lower Mississippi where the boundary is nearly 10 miles from the current river channel to the state line. I cannot think of any that have roads through the oxbow peninsulas, but if there were, it would be really confusing.  Technically the US-82 bridge at Greenville both landings are in Arkansas.  The approach on the Mississippi side is partly in Arkansas, but the state line falls before east bank levee.

The Arkansas / Texas border at Index on US-71 is one of these. The highway signs don't help it any.
The Northbound Bridge leaves Miller County Arkansas and arrives in Little River County Arkansas.
The Southbound Bridge Leaves Little River County Arkansas and arrives in Bowie County TX. 
Then again, All the Texas Bridges on the Red River TECHNICALLY leave and arrive in the other state because Technically the other state controls to the high water mark.

Speaking of the Red River, not really on the subject of the thread, but bothers me.  Southbound I-35 crossing the Red River is signed in Oklahoma and Texas, so you see a sign for the Red River after you have crossed it.  It feels like a "you did it?  I can do it too!"

https://goo.gl/maps/6Po23sMPUtRZSa8v5

US 89

Quote from: ErmineNotyours on September 24, 2020, 09:58:08 PM
Quote from: US 89 on September 22, 2020, 12:46:42 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 21, 2020, 09:36:49 PM
NPS apparently hates to sign political boundaries.

I'm not seeing it on GSV's 2018 imagery, but I'm fairly certain the Montana-Wyoming border was signed on US 20 the West Entrance Road when I drove through Yellowstone this past summer. I can't think of any other signed state boundaries on NPS roads I've been on.


It is signed on the North Entrance Road: https://goo.gl/maps/fQ7cqqEWUf6VFG1s5

I am 90% sure that was not there this summer. I was even looking for a sign and never saw that.

Scott5114

Quote from: bwana39 on September 25, 2020, 11:59:45 AM
I am going to add a YEAH, BUT

While some of these examples are indeed anomalies that just happen, still others have to do with the boundary being the route of the river at a past date.

If the boundary was ever the route of the river at a past date, it doesn't qualify for this thread.

This thread is for when you cross a river and a boundary at the same time but the river is not, and has never been the boundary.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

webny99

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St, but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes, and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.

Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?

I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here, to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.

GenExpwy

Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2020, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St, but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes, and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.

Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?

I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here, to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.

That, plus the sidewalks (which I assume are a village borough project) extend north of that street.

The USGS topo maps (Tioga and Jackson Summit quads) just add to the confusion. The 1954 maps show the state line as definitely north of that line of houses. The 2019 maps show a mid-street state line – more from shifting the street than the state line – but does not show individual buildings. Comparing the two, it just seems to me that the 1954 version was more carefully done, and that Google might be relying on the current version.

hobsini2

#37
There is one I know of in Beloit, WI. ILL 2's end sign and a North Wis 213 sign are right at the beginning of the bridge over Turtle Creek.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4947733,-89.0367973,3a,20.3y,41.86h,90.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDpNMliuez4hmYAbqVlALsg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

The bridge is actually about 200 feet well inside Illinois.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4949809,-89.0362286,17z?hl=en

The pavement change is the line on Route 2/Wis 213.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4959912,-89.0366219,3a,75y,3.81h,82.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLChnsZeAqHG_vj70N-84yA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

As you can see, the reverse view has the South Beloit sign and the back of the Beloit sign at the pavement change.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4961715,-89.0366022,3a,51.5y,168.5h,83.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0fYO6_o-Hn6D_mkViHhcug!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Another thing to notice a bit east of Route 2/213 is the crossing of US 51 between the 2 states. Notice that the first building on the Wisconsin side is a fireworks place since they are illegal in Illinois.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4961383,-89.0198452,3a,75y,84.15h,75.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRMZWXa7EVAlulTJcLyHIdg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
I knew it. I'm surrounded by assholes. Keep firing, assholes! - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)

ozarkman417

Another example involving the Red River- US71/59 north of Texarkana, but only going southbound. I'm not 100% sure if this would even count, because US71 crosses in to Texas only about 50 feet to the east of where the Red River, or its former course, stops deciding the border.

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: GenExpwy on September 26, 2020, 03:10:38 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2020, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I’ll bet even Google doesn’t know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St, but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That’s where the pavement changes, and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.

Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?

I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here, to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.

That, plus the sidewalks (which I assume are a village borough project) extend north of that street.

The USGS topo maps (Tioga and Jackson Summit quads) just add to the confusion. The 1954 maps show the state line as definitely north of that line of houses. The 2019 maps show a mid-street state line — more from shifting the street than the state line — but does not show individual buildings. Comparing the two, it just seems to me that the 1954 version was more carefully done, and that Google might be relying on the current version.

Curiouser and curiouser.

According to this, the municipal boundary is the orange line, but the state boundary is the green line. This would put part of the municipality outside the state, which I'm pretty sure can't be done. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the state line that's wrong, but that's just a hunch.

Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

tallfull

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on September 26, 2020, 11:23:37 PM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 26, 2020, 03:10:38 AM
Quote from: webny99 on September 25, 2020, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 22, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: GenExpwy on September 22, 2020, 04:35:58 AM
I'll bet even Google doesn't know where the state line is. Google maps shows the state line running down the center of State St/Mill St, but I think it makes more sense if it runs behind the houses on the north side of the street. That's where the pavement changes, and it would line up better with sections to the east and west.

Are you basing the state line based on knowledge, or based on pavement?

I'm not sure, but it seems very reasonable that the houses along said street are entirely in PA, rather than the state line running down the middle of the street. If you look closely, it looks like Google has angled the state line slightly, starting about here, to force it onto the street, while the more properly aligned location would seem to be behind the houses on the north side.

That, plus the sidewalks (which I assume are a village borough project) extend north of that street.

The USGS topo maps (Tioga and Jackson Summit quads) just add to the confusion. The 1954 maps show the state line as definitely north of that line of houses. The 2019 maps show a mid-street state line – more from shifting the street than the state line – but does not show individual buildings. Comparing the two, it just seems to me that the 1954 version was more carefully done, and that Google might be relying on the current version.

Curiouser and curiouser.

According to this, the municipal boundary is the orange line, but the state boundary is the green line. This would put part of the municipality outside the state, which I'm pretty sure can't be done. If I had to guess, I'd say it's the state line that's wrong, but that's just a hunch.



In the 2010 U.S. Census data, the sliver of land north of State St. is assigned to Lawrenceville, Pennsylvania census block 3014. The census data shows this census block having 23 houses and 59 people. This implies that all of the people living along that stretch were counted as Pennsylvania residents.


NWI_Irish96

In case you're curious about where the Census Bureau gets its boundary data:

https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/bas/about.html

Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

jaehak

I'm sure there are a lot of drivers crossing the Kansas River bridges on 670 and 70 who believe they are crossing a state line at the river.

CtrlAltDel

Quote from: jaehak on September 27, 2020, 01:05:59 PM
I’m sure there are a lot of drivers crossing the Kansas River bridges on 670 and 70 who believe they are crossing a state line at the river.

Speaking of which, how is the I-70 construction going there? Your post piqued my curiosity, but I really haven't been able to find anything recent.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

froggie

Resurrecting this thread with another as-yet-unmentioned example:

US 98 at the Escatawpa River, where it happens to cross the MS/AL line at the same time.

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 21, 2020, 07:38:23 AM
Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.

It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.

iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

hotdogPi

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 21, 2020, 07:38:23 AM
Arlington Memorial Bridge in Washington DC would be an outstanding example of this, and I'd wager the vast majority of local residents, even those who use the bridge every day, think they're crossing from DC into Virginia, or vice versa, when they're on the bridge. They're not–the islands in the river are in the District of Columbia (or Maryland, depending on where the islands are), and the southern/western end of that bridge is on Columbia Island.

It doesn't help that there are no signs marking where the line actually is.

iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.

The island is in DC, not VA; the border follows a much more minor river at this particular point. I've walked from Arlington National Cemetery to the Lincoln Memorial and beyond, so I've walked from VA to DC – but I crossed the border before I crossed the Potomac, not at the same time.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

froggie

Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.

Technically, not wrong.  The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac.  But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others:  there's a second channel of the Potomac west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.

zachary_amaryllis

Quote from: froggie on November 04, 2020, 10:22:08 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 04, 2020, 09:12:10 AM
iirc, the border is basically as soon as you get your feet wet in the potomac.

Technically, not wrong.  The official border is the mean low water mark on the Virginia side of the Potomac.  But what many people don't realize is what's been mentioned both in this thread and others:  there's a second channel of the Potomac west of GW Pkwy in the vicinity of Memorial Bridge.

learned something new today, thanks for that. always a good thing. it's been a long time since i've been in that area...
clinched:
I-64, I-80, I-76 (west), *64s in hampton roads, 225,270,180 (co, wy)

ethanhopkin14

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.9014879,-103.002353,3a,75y,265.43h,95.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIQVYk6vh1dQGW31oK3iXqA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

New Mexico State Highway 456 crosses into Oklahoma at a bridge over a creek.  The state line is a parallel and not the creek.



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