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Interstate 40

Started by Max Rockatansky, March 29, 2021, 06:37:25 PM

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skluth

Quote from: kkt on April 03, 2022, 02:16:26 AM
US 6 facing eastbound at its western end in Bishop, Cal., has a distance sign to Provincetown, Mass.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:P-town.jpg
Its location can be seen in GSV


Techknow

Don't forget the sign at (West) Sacramento to Ocean City, MD on US 50:


kkt

Quote from: Techknow on April 03, 2022, 09:46:33 PM
Don't forget the sign at (West) Sacramento to Ocean City, MD on US 50:



:nod:

Why is it so many US routes and not interstates?

Max Rockatansky

Probably because US Route commonly have historic/promotional associations whereas Interstates rarely do.  Both US 6 and US 50 have such associations which I've always figured played a large role in why mileage signage ended up being located at the terminus points.

SkyPesos

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 03, 2022, 10:24:46 PM
Probably because US Route commonly have historic/promotional associations whereas Interstates rarely do.  Both US 6 and US 50 have such associations which I've always figured played a large role in why mileage signage ended up being located at the terminus points.
I wonder why I don't see that much US 40 promotional stuff out there. Lots of history in the route, with it part of the National Rd, Victory Hwy and National Old Trails Rd. Personally, I think it's more noteworthy than US 66, but it seems like the general public disagrees.


Max Rockatansky

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 03, 2022, 11:19:17 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 03, 2022, 10:24:46 PM
Probably because US Route commonly have historic/promotional associations whereas Interstates rarely do.  Both US 6 and US 50 have such associations which I've always figured played a large role in why mileage signage ended up being located at the terminus points.
I wonder why I don't see that much US 40 promotional stuff out there. Lots of history in the route, with it part of the National Rd, Victory Hwy and National Old Trails Rd. Personally, I think it's more noteworthy than US 66, but it seems like the general public disagrees.

Interestingly the Victory Highway Association of the Auto Trail era ended up becoming the US Route 40 Association.  US 40 has a pretty big Historic following, I would probably rank it in the Top 5 favored US Routes.


skluth

Quote from: SkyPesos on April 03, 2022, 11:19:17 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 03, 2022, 10:24:46 PM
Probably because US Route commonly have historic/promotional associations whereas Interstates rarely do.  Both US 6 and US 50 have such associations which I've always figured played a large role in why mileage signage ended up being located at the terminus points.
I wonder why I don't see that much US 40 promotional stuff out there. Lots of history in the route, with it part of the National Rd, Victory Hwy and National Old Trails Rd. Personally, I think it's more noteworthy than US 66, but it seems like the general public disagrees.

It's popular culture. US 66 had a huge hit song, a TV show with cool cars, and a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel. No other highway comes close.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: skluth on April 04, 2022, 02:12:35 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 03, 2022, 11:19:17 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 03, 2022, 10:24:46 PM
Probably because US Route commonly have historic/promotional associations whereas Interstates rarely do.  Both US 6 and US 50 have such associations which I've always figured played a large role in why mileage signage ended up being located at the terminus points.
I wonder why I don't see that much US 40 promotional stuff out there. Lots of history in the route, with it part of the National Rd, Victory Hwy and National Old Trails Rd. Personally, I think it's more noteworthy than US 66, but it seems like the general public disagrees.

It's popular culture. US 66 had a huge hit song, a TV show with cool cars, and a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel. No other highway comes close.

Which likely is the worst thing that could have happened to US 66.  The more nostalgic segments were so much more fun 10-15 years ago when the basic people weren't there.  The popularity of 66 hit critical mass once social media began to take off.

Bobby5280

US-66 has had on-going appeal long before the arrival of social media. Popular culture has helped give the route a boost from time to time. The Bobby Troup song is the most famous. The movie Rainman with Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise gave the route some exposure in the late 1980's. The Pixar movie Cars boosted interest in The Mother Road in 2006.

I still don't see the logic in decommissioning US-66. It was a dumb move, driven by bean counter types I'm sure. I-40 and I-44 didn't cannibalize all the original stretches of US-66. Most of the original US-66 route in Oklahoma is still intact, just signed as a state highway. Given the history of American population migration, particularly during the Dust Bowl and years following, US-66 was a very important route. Hell, we still have Phillips 66 gasoline stations that literally lampoon the highway marker. But no more actual US-66! They need to fix that nonsense.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 10:44:45 PM
US-66 has had on-going appeal long before the arrival of social media. Popular culture has helped give the route a boost from time to time. The Bobby Troup song is the most famous. The movie Rainman with Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise gave the route some exposure in the late 1980's. The Pixar movie Cars boosted interest in The Mother Road in 2006.

I still don't see the logic in decommissioning US-66. It was a dumb move, driven by bean counter types I'm sure. I-40 and I-44 didn't cannibalize all the original stretches of US-66. Most of the original US-66 route in Oklahoma is still intact, just signed as a state highway. Given the history of American population migration, particularly during the Dust Bowl and years following, US-66 was a very important route. Hell, we still have Phillips 66 gasoline stations that literally lampoon the highway marker. But no more actual US-66! They need to fix that nonsense.

A lot of US 66 was co-signed with Interstate corridors or simply existed towards it's end as a "on paper"  multiplex.  While yes it was popular it certainly wasn't exactly super mainstream either.  So much of the back story of US 66 has been muddled or is just outright incorrect because of popular conjecture.  Example; a lot normal people really believe US 66 ended at Santa Monica Pier.  It's bad enough that people still think US 66 ended at 7th and Broadway in Los Angeles when there is no known evidence to support it being signed in Los Angeles before December 1930. 

I mean, I love US 66 and it was one of my favorite corridors to explore when I lived in the Mountain Region.  Now that it has become mainstream I much rather focus my interest on other corridors that have just as much merit (such as US 99, US 40, US 101 and US 91 as examples).

Bobby5280

Given the historical importance of US-66 it's baffling how that route wound up being decommissioned while so many far less important US Highway-signed routes remained signed as such. Our highway system has US route overlaps that often run as deep as 3 route designations. Here in the Lawton area we have US-62/277/281 sharing the same pavement in certain locations. I can't think of any examples off-hand, but it wouldn't surprise me to see any US highway concurrencies that run 4 route numbers deep.

The US highway system has a great deal of 3-digit sub-routes. US-166 and US-266 still have active route segments even though their parent route is effectively dead. Given all the discretion I see in how highways are named there just doesn't seem to be any legit excuse for US-66 to be taken out of the system.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 11:13:58 PM
Given the historical importance of US-66 it's baffling how that route wound up being decommissioned while so many far less important US Highway-signed routes remained signed as such. Our highway system has US route overlaps that often run as deep as 3 route designations. Here in the Lawton area we have US-62/277/281 sharing the same pavement in certain locations. I can't think of any examples off-hand, but it wouldn't surprise me to see any US highway concurrencies that run 4 route numbers deep.

The US highway system has a great deal of 3-digit sub-routes. US-166 and US-266 still have active route segments even though their parent route is effectively dead. Given all the discretion I see in how highways are named there just doesn't seem to be any legit excuse for US-66 to be taken out of the system.

The 1964 California Highway Renumbering and it's anti-multiplex stance certainly didn't help.  Even in Arizona there wasn't a ton of stand along mileage state maintained for US 66 to inhabit as a stand alone route.  AZ 66 was about the most realistic place US 66 could have stayed but that's a long multiplex from the New Mexico State Line to get there. 

What's interesting to me is that it doesn't seem like there was a ton of reverence for legacy US Routes as the Interstates were being built.  During the 1970s and 1980s I could certainly see the mindset being pervasive as people were probably just ready to move on from the antiquated corridors of old.  The interesting thing to me is that most of the people who actually experienced the decommissioned US Routes are mostly gone.  So somehow a lot of us have become nostalgic  for something we never actually experienced when it was an active entity.

Scott5114

Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 11:13:58 PM
Given the historical importance of US-66 it's baffling how that route wound up being decommissioned while so many far less important US Highway-signed routes remained signed as such. Our highway system has US route overlaps that often run as deep as 3 route designations. Here in the Lawton area we have US-62/277/281 sharing the same pavement in certain locations. I can't think of any examples off-hand, but it wouldn't surprise me to see any US highway concurrencies that run 4 route numbers deep.

The US highway system has a great deal of 3-digit sub-routes. US-166 and US-266 still have active route segments even though their parent route is effectively dead. Given all the discretion I see in how highways are named there just doesn't seem to be any legit excuse for US-66 to be taken out of the system.

Since it saw fit to keep the road on the books as a state highway, Oklahoma DOT could have simply refused to sign onto the decommissioning request if it had chosen to. If that were the case, its modern termini would probably be El Reno and the current eastern terminus of 166/400. 266 still exists because ODOT has never bothered to request its decommissioning.

If you really want to make this happen, write to Sen. Lankford and whichever shambling horror they get to replace Inhofe, and ask them to write the designation into law. Frank Lucas probably wouldn't hurt, either. Unlike most of the insane route designations that have emanated from Congress over the years, enshrining the US-66 designation in federal law actually makes some degree of sense. Let me know if you do–I'll write in too.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Rothman

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 06, 2022, 11:58:17 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 11:13:58 PM
Given the historical importance of US-66 it's baffling how that route wound up being decommissioned while so many far less important US Highway-signed routes remained signed as such. Our highway system has US route overlaps that often run as deep as 3 route designations. Here in the Lawton area we have US-62/277/281 sharing the same pavement in certain locations. I can't think of any examples off-hand, but it wouldn't surprise me to see any US highway concurrencies that run 4 route numbers deep.

The US highway system has a great deal of 3-digit sub-routes. US-166 and US-266 still have active route segments even though their parent route is effectively dead. Given all the discretion I see in how highways are named there just doesn't seem to be any legit excuse for US-66 to be taken out of the system.

The 1964 California Highway Renumbering and it's anti-multiplex stance certainly didn't help.  Even in Arizona there wasn't a ton of stand along mileage state maintained for US 66 to inhabit as a stand alone route.  AZ 66 was about the most realistic place US 66 could have stayed but that's a long multiplex from the New Mexico State Line to get there. 

What's interesting to me is that it doesn't seem like there was a ton of reverence for legacy US Routes as the Interstates were being built.  During the 1970s and 1980s I could certainly see the mindset being pervasive as people were probably just ready to move on from the antiquated corridors of old.  The interesting thing to me is that most of the people who actually experienced the decommissioned US Routes are mostly gone.  So somehow a lot of us have become nostalgic  for something we never actually experienced when it was an active entity.
There was a lot of nostalgia for US 66 in the 1980s.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Rothman on April 07, 2022, 06:56:27 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 06, 2022, 11:58:17 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 11:13:58 PM
Given the historical importance of US-66 it's baffling how that route wound up being decommissioned while so many far less important US Highway-signed routes remained signed as such. Our highway system has US route overlaps that often run as deep as 3 route designations. Here in the Lawton area we have US-62/277/281 sharing the same pavement in certain locations. I can't think of any examples off-hand, but it wouldn't surprise me to see any US highway concurrencies that run 4 route numbers deep.

The US highway system has a great deal of 3-digit sub-routes. US-166 and US-266 still have active route segments even though their parent route is effectively dead. Given all the discretion I see in how highways are named there just doesn't seem to be any legit excuse for US-66 to be taken out of the system.

The 1964 California Highway Renumbering and it's anti-multiplex stance certainly didn't help.  Even in Arizona there wasn't a ton of stand along mileage state maintained for US 66 to inhabit as a stand alone route.  AZ 66 was about the most realistic place US 66 could have stayed but that's a long multiplex from the New Mexico State Line to get there. 

What's interesting to me is that it doesn't seem like there was a ton of reverence for legacy US Routes as the Interstates were being built.  During the 1970s and 1980s I could certainly see the mindset being pervasive as people were probably just ready to move on from the antiquated corridors of old.  The interesting thing to me is that most of the people who actually experienced the decommissioned US Routes are mostly gone.  So somehow a lot of us have become nostalgic  for something we never actually experienced when it was an active entity.
There was a lot of nostalgia for US 66 in the 1980s.

Yes, my Mom had a whole big story about a 1957 road trip on US 66 should would tell in the 1980s.  It was complete with stuff like the silk water bags, Burma Shave signs and how terrifying the Grand Canyon apparently was.

skluth

Quote from: Scott5114 on April 07, 2022, 12:39:51 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 11:13:58 PM
Given the historical importance of US-66 it's baffling how that route wound up being decommissioned while so many far less important US Highway-signed routes remained signed as such. Our highway system has US route overlaps that often run as deep as 3 route designations. Here in the Lawton area we have US-62/277/281 sharing the same pavement in certain locations. I can't think of any examples off-hand, but it wouldn't surprise me to see any US highway concurrencies that run 4 route numbers deep.

The US highway system has a great deal of 3-digit sub-routes. US-166 and US-266 still have active route segments even though their parent route is effectively dead. Given all the discretion I see in how highways are named there just doesn't seem to be any legit excuse for US-66 to be taken out of the system.

Since it saw fit to keep the road on the books as a state highway, Oklahoma DOT could have simply refused to sign onto the decommissioning request if it had chosen to. If that were the case, its modern termini would probably be El Reno and the current eastern terminus of 166/400. 266 still exists because ODOT has never bothered to request its decommissioning.

If you really want to make this happen, write to Sen. Lankford and whichever shambling horror they get to replace Inhofe, and ask them to write the designation into law. Frank Lucas probably wouldn't hurt, either. Unlike most of the insane route designations that have emanated from Congress over the years, enshrining the US-66 designation in federal law actually makes some degree of sense. Let me know if you do–I'll write in too.

I'd prefer a longer recommissioning. A US 66 from CA to Western MO would be my suggestion, though this is a strawman so I could be convinced over a different alignment. I realize this would mean some long duplexes with I-40 through Northern Arizona and New Mexico. But I think it would be even more a tourist draw than marking the entire route with "Historic 66" signs. I'd also use US 66 to replace all those Business I-40 routes into cities like Flagstaff and Amarillo, many of which are part of the historic alignment. Perhaps the west end could finally officially be the Santa Monica Pier.

kkt

Quote from: skluth on April 07, 2022, 02:51:49 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 07, 2022, 12:39:51 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on April 06, 2022, 11:13:58 PM
Given the historical importance of US-66 it's baffling how that route wound up being decommissioned while so many far less important US Highway-signed routes remained signed as such. Our highway system has US route overlaps that often run as deep as 3 route designations. Here in the Lawton area we have US-62/277/281 sharing the same pavement in certain locations. I can't think of any examples off-hand, but it wouldn't surprise me to see any US highway concurrencies that run 4 route numbers deep.

The US highway system has a great deal of 3-digit sub-routes. US-166 and US-266 still have active route segments even though their parent route is effectively dead. Given all the discretion I see in how highways are named there just doesn't seem to be any legit excuse for US-66 to be taken out of the system.

Since it saw fit to keep the road on the books as a state highway, Oklahoma DOT could have simply refused to sign onto the decommissioning request if it had chosen to. If that were the case, its modern termini would probably be El Reno and the current eastern terminus of 166/400. 266 still exists because ODOT has never bothered to request its decommissioning.

If you really want to make this happen, write to Sen. Lankford and whichever shambling horror they get to replace Inhofe, and ask them to write the designation into law. Frank Lucas probably wouldn't hurt, either. Unlike most of the insane route designations that have emanated from Congress over the years, enshrining the US-66 designation in federal law actually makes some degree of sense. Let me know if you do–I'll write in too.

I'd prefer a longer recommissioning. A US 66 from CA to Western MO would be my suggestion, though this is a strawman so I could be convinced over a different alignment. I realize this would mean some long duplexes with I-40 through Northern Arizona and New Mexico. But I think it would be even more a tourist draw than marking the entire route with "Historic 66" signs. I'd also use US 66 to replace all those Business I-40 routes into cities like Flagstaff and Amarillo, many of which are part of the historic alignment. Perhaps the west end could finally officially be the Santa Monica Pier.

I'd post a Historic US 66 route following the route of the last few years that US 66 was signed, using duplexes with interstates where necessary.  I'd only replace Business I-40 with Historic 66 signs where the route through the town is really a historic route of US 66.  I wouldn't extend it to where US 66 never existed, unless it was a short distance to get to a freeway entrance or some such.


Bobby5280

Yeah, I would only want US-66 signed as such on pavement where US-66 previously existed, even if an Interstate is going over the top of that location. Moving the designation to locations where it didn't exist before would ruin some of the road trip tourism angle.

Quote from: Scott5114If you really want to make this happen, write to Sen. Lankford and whichever shambling horror they get to replace Inhofe, and ask them to write the designation into law. Frank Lucas probably wouldn't hurt, either. Unlike most of the insane route designations that have emanated from Congress over the years, enshrining the US-66 designation in federal law actually makes some degree of sense. Let me know if you do–I'll write in too.

I'm tempted to do just that. There is economic value in a US-66 that is "alive" in a more legit way. There are quite a few service businesses along the route that cater to various kinds of tourists tracing the route. Raising public awareness about the heritage of the highway might to more to raise overall interest in the nation's highway infrastructure.

skluth

My preference for replacing the Business I-40s was to only do it when most of it was previously US 66. I don't know which cities actually follow the old routing. I know in the St Louis area there were at least a half dozen historical routings, though Watson Road would probably be the local preference if a new US 66 came through the city.

pderocco

Since most of the former US-66 isn't that useful for general travel, and is primarily of interest to road buffs, I don't have a problem with seeing Historic US-66 signs in lieu of normal route number signs. Here in California, we have almost 200 miles of the former US-66 signed in San Bernardino County as County Route 66. That's a pretty long piece of the old road that can be driven continuously without having to "cheat" on a more modern road (except for a tiny stretch that goes through a Marine base). Unfortunately, a lot of that road is unpleasant to drive because the pavement maintenance is, shall we say, sparing.

Are there any other really long unmultiplexed pieces of the old US-66? I've only driven it as far east as Holbrook, AZ.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: pderocco on April 08, 2022, 02:23:33 AM
Since most of the former US-66 isn't that useful for general travel, and is primarily of interest to road buffs, I don't have a problem with seeing Historic US-66 signs in lieu of normal route number signs. Here in California, we have almost 200 miles of the former US-66 signed in San Bernardino County as County Route 66. That's a pretty long piece of the old road that can be driven continuously without having to "cheat" on a more modern road (except for a tiny stretch that goes through a Marine base). Unfortunately, a lot of that road is unpleasant to drive because the pavement maintenance is, shall we say, sparing.

Are there any other really long unmultiplexed pieces of the old US-66? I've only driven it as far east as Holbrook, AZ.

Really pretty much the whole thing from Santa Monica to Cajon Pass is intact as a through road if you want to slog through the urban jungle (I have once purposely).  If you count Oatman Highway along with AZ 66 that would be the next longest segment.  The trouble I have is what does one constitute as the "truest US 66?"   If someone were to say they drove I-40 between Bartstow and Ludlow they would in fact also driven the final alignment of US 66 before it was decommissioned. 

skluth

Much of US 66 in Illinois closely parallels I-55 and can be easily followed from Dwight to Mount Olive. A bit of it is concurrent with I-55 but can also be driven on a frontage road through much of the state. US 66 was mostly four lanes before the interstate, so IDOT often just built two new lanes to one side of US 66 and one two-lane side of the old roadbed became a frontage road while the other side roadbed was upgraded to interstate standards. Several of the old pre-interstate US 66 bypasses of cities still exist, including Bloomington, Lincoln, Springfield, and Pontiac. Very little of it is signed with another route. Like the segments in California and Arizona, the Illinois segment attracts a lot of US 66 enthusiasts from overseas.

flowmotion

Quote from: Rothman on April 07, 2022, 06:56:27 AM
There was a lot of nostalgia for US 66 in the 1980s.

When I drove former 66 through the southwest in the early 90s, quite a bit of the original roadside architecture and signage was still visible, even if it was in a heavily decayed state. The nostalgia was probably more about what was on the road than the road itself. 

Alps

Quote from: skluth on April 08, 2022, 11:55:08 AM
Much of US 66 in Illinois closely parallels I-55 and can be easily followed from Dwight to Mount Olive. A bit of it is concurrent with I-55 but can also be driven on a frontage road through much of the state. US 66 was mostly four lanes before the interstate, so IDOT often just built two new lanes to one side of US 66 and one two-lane side of the old roadbed became a frontage road while the other side roadbed was upgraded to interstate standards. Several of the old pre-interstate US 66 bypasses of cities still exist, including Bloomington, Lincoln, Springfield, and Pontiac. Very little of it is signed with another route. Like the segments in California and Arizona, the Illinois segment attracts a lot of US 66 enthusiasts from overseas.
Not exactly true. US 66 was originally on IL 4 (historic routing thereof), which starts out quite a bit west of I-55 as it heads up from St. Louis. I'm not the best citation for where this went, but again, how original do you want to be?

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Alps on April 08, 2022, 05:51:52 PM
Quote from: skluth on April 08, 2022, 11:55:08 AM
Much of US 66 in Illinois closely parallels I-55 and can be easily followed from Dwight to Mount Olive. A bit of it is concurrent with I-55 but can also be driven on a frontage road through much of the state. US 66 was mostly four lanes before the interstate, so IDOT often just built two new lanes to one side of US 66 and one two-lane side of the old roadbed became a frontage road while the other side roadbed was upgraded to interstate standards. Several of the old pre-interstate US 66 bypasses of cities still exist, including Bloomington, Lincoln, Springfield, and Pontiac. Very little of it is signed with another route. Like the segments in California and Arizona, the Illinois segment attracts a lot of US 66 enthusiasts from overseas.
Not exactly true. US 66 was originally on IL 4 (historic routing thereof), which starts out quite a bit west of I-55 as it heads up from St. Louis. I'm not the best citation for where this went, but again, how original do you want to be?

And you really can't replicate the true original routing in Chicago given Adams/Jackson serve as one way couplets.  That's the reason why the Historic US Route 66 Begin sign is located in the wrong place.



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