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Author Topic: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded  (Read 4451 times)

bugo

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Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« on: December 15, 2021, 10:34:17 PM »

"We're going to erect the signs, and the Democrats are going to pay for them!"

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.oklahoman.com%2Fstory%2Fnews%2F2021%2F12%2F15%2Fdonald-j-trump-highway-oklahoma-road-signs-transportation-department-funding%2F6463485001%2F

Quote
After altering rules and overcoming opposition to pass the state's highway naming bill in May, Oklahoma GOP legislators have yet to provide promised funding for signage along a 20-mile stretch of Panhandle highway designated "President Donald J. Trump Highway."

Republican lawmakers slipped two paragraphs about naming a section of U.S. 287 in Cimarron County, from Boise City to the Texas border, after the former president in the bill that typically seeks to memorialize notable Oklahomans.

In this case, lawmakers amended a section in Senate Bill 624 that requires the person whose name is to be bestowed on the roadway to have been dead for at least three years, an Oklahoman or a current politician.

As part of the bill that went into effect on Nov. 1, the lawmakers pushing for the designation agreed to pay for signage, which the state Transportation Department needs to receive before the project can proceed.

"Once the group that got this put in place has their funding, they will let us know when they're ready essentially," said Lisa Shearer-Salim, spokesperson for the Transportation Department.

However, the weight and urgency warranting rule changes to allow the designation's passage has not translated into staking the signage in Oklahoma's Panhandle.

"I need to circle back and see where we're at, I don't know," said Sen. Casey Murdock, R-Felt. "I asked ODOT (Oklahoma Department of Transportation) to let me know when they're close to doing something, and that's the last conversation I had with them."

Several lawmakers, including Sen. Rob Standridge, R-Norman, have offered to pay the costs in full, and others have expressed a desire to chip in, as well. Standridge said the signage bill is about $1,000 or less.

"I've been so busy making preparations for the upcoming session, I hadn't thought about that in a couple of weeks," Standridge said.

The signs will not be seen on the highway until the tab is paid and details on the number of signs and wordage are agreed upon, according to Transportation Department officials.

"Once those memorial designations, or in this case the current named designation, are put in place by the Legislature, they typically send us that information at the end of the session," Shearer-Salim said.

The bill to name the highway after the former president overcame a challenge by Senate Minority Leader Kay Floyd, D-Oklahoma City, who noted the rule requiring those honored by a highway name to be dead for at least three years.

Supporters of the highway trumped that challenge by simply crossing out the rule.

"Honestly this bill was extremely difficult to pass, surprisingly, to me anyway," Standridge said. "Had to override rules multiple times, so obviously with the overwhelming majority of Republicans (in the Legislature), it was surprising to see the opposition, but we eventually got it passed."

From Standridge's perspective, lawmakers are simply following the pulse and thoughts of Oklahoma's voters.

"I mean this is a guy, whether you like him or not, received overwhelming support from Oklahoma voters," Standridge said. "We're going to do things for the voters."


* bugo waits eagerly for Scott5114 to lock this thread
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skluth

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2021, 11:10:13 PM »

I don't believe the naming rule exists. I lived in St Louis when a portion of it was named the Mark McGwire Highway who is still very much alive. Rather humorously, the name was later removed after McGwire's involvement in baseball's steroids scandal. I believe the Bushes each have a highway named after them in Texas and both were named while Bush Sr was alive. 
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Scott5114

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2021, 01:15:35 AM »

Everything about this is dumb—naming a road after a President who didn't really materially affect the region the road is in one way or the other, going to the extent of amending law on who is eligible for such an honor to allow it to happen, and then the desperate scramble to find the money for it (I think the $1,000 quoted in the article is overestimating it, honestly; the only way you'd get it that high is if you included the wages of every single employee who touches that sign and the gas to drive it out to Cimarron County from wherever it's printed).

* bugo waits eagerly for Scott5114 to lock this thread

No reason to unless the thread gets contentious—this sort of political wrangling over roads is 100% on topic.

I don't believe the naming rule exists. I lived in St Louis when a portion of it was named the Mark McGwire Highway who is still very much alive. Rather humorously, the name was later removed after McGwire's involvement in baseball's steroids scandal. I believe the Bushes each have a highway named after them in Texas and both were named while Bush Sr was alive. 

This naming rule appears to be a matter of Oklahoma law, which obviously wouldn't apply in Texas or Missouri.

I wish Oklahoma law completely banned these sorts of memorial designations no matter who they were for. Our roads are littered with hundreds of signs naming every random stretch of two-lane road and every culvert after state troopers, state legislators, and individual soldiers. None of these names recognize anyone who is well-known outside the immediate area (and sometimes not even then; the stretch of Interstate outside my childhood home is named after someone I've never heard of). Rarely are these names used to identify the highway. It does nothing but waste money and clutter the roadside with unnecessary signs.

I know that realistically the Legislature will never stop pandering to random people by declaring more and more memorial designations, so it would be pretty funny if ODOT just started printing them on milemarker blanks with 2" lettering. Technically, that would comply with the law!
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SectorZ

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2021, 06:36:23 AM »

When is Lincoln Riley getting his three feet of highway signed?
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Avalanchez71

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2021, 09:01:34 AM »

Everything about this is dumb—naming a road after a President who didn't really materially affect the region the road is in one way or the other, going to the extent of amending law on who is eligible for such an honor to allow it to happen, and then the desperate scramble to find the money for it (I think the $1,000 quoted in the article is overestimating it, honestly; the only way you'd get it that high is if you included the wages of every single employee who touches that sign and the gas to drive it out to Cimarron County from wherever it's printed).

* bugo waits eagerly for Scott5114 to lock this thread

No reason to unless the thread gets contentious—this sort of political wrangling over roads is 100% on topic.

I don't believe the naming rule exists. I lived in St Louis when a portion of it was named the Mark McGwire Highway who is still very much alive. Rather humorously, the name was later removed after McGwire's involvement in baseball's steroids scandal. I believe the Bushes each have a highway named after them in Texas and both were named while Bush Sr was alive. 

This naming rule appears to be a matter of Oklahoma law, which obviously wouldn't apply in Texas or Missouri.

I wish Oklahoma law completely banned these sorts of memorial designations no matter who they were for. Our roads are littered with hundreds of signs naming every random stretch of two-lane road and every culvert after state troopers, state legislators, and individual soldiers. None of these names recognize anyone who is well-known outside the immediate area (and sometimes not even then; the stretch of Interstate outside my childhood home is named after someone I've never heard of). Rarely are these names used to identify the highway. It does nothing but waste money and clutter the roadside with unnecessary signs.

I know that realistically the Legislature will never stop pandering to random people by declaring more and more memorial designations, so it would be pretty funny if ODOT just started printing them on milemarker blanks with 2" lettering. Technically, that would comply with the law!

The part about folks not referring to the names of these highways is so true.  If a peace officer was to call for back-up by calling out over the radio that they are one Joe Doe Memorial Highway they may have a hard time getting back-up to find them.
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Scott5114

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2021, 12:20:07 PM »

There used to be a poster here who would consistently use the name "Liberty Parkway" to refer to some highway in Tulsa and we would clown on him for it because nobody ever used that name in real life.
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kalvado

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2021, 12:23:54 PM »

When is Lincoln Riley getting his three feet of highway signed?
Maybe we need to start selling naming right for highways?
Just imagine traffic report about an accident at the interchange of Google Turnpike and Verizon Parkway! Small county roads can be sold by the mile. After all, we already have "adopt a highway" - just bringing it one step up.
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Scott5114

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2021, 12:24:58 PM »

stop making it worse
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kalvado

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2021, 12:28:46 PM »

stop making it worse
It cannot be made much worse after this and Cuomo's Daddy bridge. Or we can make it real worse - so unbelievably bad that things would have to change for the better.
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1995hoo

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2021, 12:47:55 PM »

When is Lincoln Riley getting his three feet of highway signed?
Maybe we need to start selling naming right for highways?
Just imagine traffic report about an accident at the interchange of Google Turnpike and Verizon Parkway! Small county roads can be sold by the mile. After all, we already have "adopt a highway" - just bringing it one step up.

The Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority was exploring the idea of selling naming rights to subway stations. It wasn't clear whether the sponsors' names would be appended to the station names the way some college football bowl games do (e.g., "Amazon Crystal City," which would at least make sense in view of Amazon HQ2 being built there) or whether they would replace the station names (which wouldn't really help most people navigate the system). I haven't heard anything about the idea in a couple of years, so maybe they mercifully dropped the idea. WMATA certainly has enough other problems as it is.
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triplemultiplex

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2021, 12:48:38 PM »

I'm sure they could find plenty of rubes up in the panhandle to chip in to pay for some signs.
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Scott5114

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2021, 12:53:04 PM »

stop making it worse
It cannot be made much worse after this and Cuomo's Daddy bridge. Or we can make it real worse - so unbelievably bad that things would have to change for the better.

I mean, naming things after Trump and Cuomo is pretty awful...but at least Trump and Cuomo are always called that. Companies change their name all the time, merge, go out of business, and stop paying for naming rights. We can all think of a stadium that's had four different names in living memory. That sort of thing would be hell if you tried to use it as navigation, which would lead to another round of signs that are ignored by everyone and become a source of roadside clutter.

If a business wants to display ads on a road, there are already mechanisms for doing that: blue service signage and adopt-a-highway programs. Notice how few businesses go the adopt-a-highway route, though—it says something that they don't care about advertising so much that they might have to spend time and labor on it as opposed to money.
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GaryV

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2021, 12:58:24 PM »

If a business wants to display ads on a road, there are already mechanisms for doing that: blue service signage and adopt-a-highway programs. Notice how few businesses go the adopt-a-highway route, though—it says something that they don't care about advertising so much that they might have to spend time and labor on it as opposed to money.

Nor do their employees want to do roadside cleanup just so the company name can be displayed.

It's a fine line between "volunteered" and "volun-told".
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Scott5114

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2021, 01:00:55 PM »

If a business wants to display ads on a road, there are already mechanisms for doing that: blue service signage and adopt-a-highway programs. Notice how few businesses go the adopt-a-highway route, though—it says something that they don't care about advertising so much that they might have to spend time and labor on it as opposed to money.

Nor do their employees want to do roadside cleanup just so the company name can be displayed.

It's a fine line between "volunteered" and "volun-told".


I've never worked a job where what I wanted to do was ever treated as useful information, but maybe I was just really unlucky.
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CtrlAltDel

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2021, 01:13:52 PM »

Notice how few businesses go the adopt-a-highway route, though—it says something that they don't care about advertising so much that they might have to spend time and labor on it as opposed to money.

That varies from state to state, though, I think. California, for example, allows groups to pick up litter themselves or to hire a company.
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kalvado

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2021, 01:58:39 PM »

stop making it worse
It cannot be made much worse after this and Cuomo's Daddy bridge. Or we can make it real worse - so unbelievably bad that things would have to change for the better.

I mean, naming things after Trump and Cuomo is pretty awful...but at least Trump and Cuomo are always called that. Companies change their name all the time, merge, go out of business, and stop paying for naming rights. We can all think of a stadium that's had four different names in living memory. That sort of thing would be hell if you tried to use it as navigation, which would lead to another round of signs that are ignored by everyone and become a source of roadside clutter.

If a business wants to display ads on a road, there are already mechanisms for doing that: blue service signage and adopt-a-highway programs. Notice how few businesses go the adopt-a-highway route, though—it says something that they don't care about advertising so much that they might have to spend time and labor on it as opposed to money.
Triborough Bridge....
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TXtoNJ

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2021, 02:08:45 PM »

When is Lincoln Riley getting his three feet of highway signed?

This is the important question
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kalvado

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2021, 02:46:49 PM »

If a business wants to display ads on a road, there are already mechanisms for doing that: blue service signage and adopt-a-highway programs. Notice how few businesses go the adopt-a-highway route, though—it says something that they don't care about advertising so much that they might have to spend time and labor on it as opposed to money.

Nor do their employees want to do roadside cleanup just so the company name can be displayed.

It's a fine line between "volunteered" and "volun-told".


I've never worked a job where what I wanted to do was ever treated as useful information, but maybe I was just really unlucky.
Roadside cleanup is probably somewhere in a list of minimum wage or just above ones. Doesn't help when you ask those with 6 digit annual to do the job. Even assuming they know how to use  trash bags...
 
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1995hoo

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2021, 02:52:01 PM »

Notice how few businesses go the adopt-a-highway route, though—it says something that they don't care about advertising so much that they might have to spend time and labor on it as opposed to money.

That varies from state to state, though, I think. California, for example, allows groups to pick up litter themselves or to hire a company.

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hbelkins

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2021, 03:48:20 PM »

I've never dug into the weeds on signage costs whenever a Kentucky road was named for someone, so I can't remember if money was ever mentioned when the various Kentucky parkways were given additional names to honor politicians (or when all the parkway signs were changed to the generic "Kentucky Unbridled Spirit" versions, or when the Hal Rogers and William H. Natcher parkways were renamed from Daniel Boone and Green River) or when I-65 in Louisville got named after MLK Jr. or the Owensboro bypass for Wendell Ford.

I do know the process for when local roads or bridges are given honorary names. If the state legislature does it, the Transportation Cabinet is directed to install appropriate signage as soon as feasible but no specific funds are appropriated, so it can be assumed the money comes from the general operational budget. Often the legislation says "within 60 days" but the sponsoring legislator will ask that installation be delayed until a ceremony can be held, usually so one of the signs can be unveiled at the event. If a local government passes a resolution asking for a state facility to be named after someone, the request is made to the KYTC secretary and if the request is granted and the official order approved, the appropriate local agency (county fiscal court or city council/commission) is responsible for paying the state for the costs of the signage.
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Scott5114

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2021, 04:27:52 PM »

Of note is that the 1961 AASHO Manual for Signing and Pavement Marking of the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways (which was basically a quasi-MUTCD supplement that went into more detail about proper Interstate signage than the 1961 MUTCD did) actually banned these signs:



Obviously the state DOTs didn't care, and this guidance later morphed into the wishy-washy Section 2M.10 of the 2009 MUTCD:

Quote from: 2009 MUTCD
Guidance:
Such memorial or dedication names should not appear on or along a highway, or be placed on bridges or other highway components. If a route, bridge, or highway component is officially designated as a memorial or dedication, and if notification of the memorial or dedication is to be made on the highway right-of-way, such notification should consist of installing a memorial or dedication marker in a rest area, scenic overlook, recreational area, or other appropriate location where parking is provided with the signing inconspicuously located relative to vehicle operations along the highway.


Option:
03 If the installation of a memorial or dedication marker off the main roadway is not practical, memorial or dedication signs may be installed on the mainline.

Somehow I don't think all of the instances in Oklahoma where signs appear on the mainline were examined for their practicality or lack thereof.
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bugo

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2021, 07:36:03 PM »

There used to be a poster here who would consistently use the name "Liberty Parkway" to refer to some highway in Tulsa and we would clown on him for it because nobody ever used that name in real life.

He called it "Liberty Memorial Parkway". I didn't even know Liberty was dead.

Didn't Paul get banned for saying some racist shit? Or am I thinking of somebody else?

He had the Creek Turnpike (OK 364) labeled with that fake name on OSM, and I created an account just to change it. He changed it back, and it ended up being an edit war, which I handily won. Don't fuck with me, or you will pay the toll.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 08:00:26 PM by bugo »
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Scott5114

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2021, 07:54:14 PM »

I didn't even know Liberty was dead.

Depends on who you ask...

Didn't Paul get banned for saying some racist shit>? Or am I thinking of somebody else?

In the process of voluntarily leaving the forum, he sent us a message that could be construed as a potential threat of legal action, so we felt like enforcing his choice to leave was in our best interest.

He had the Creek Turnpike (OK 364) labeled with that fake name on OSM, and I created an account just to change it. He changed it back, and it ended up being an edit war, which I handily won. Don't fuck with me, or you will pay the toll.

Did you at least offer him a Pikepass discount?
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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2021, 07:58:38 PM »

The part about folks not referring to the names of these highways is so true.  If a peace officer was to call for back-up by calling out over the radio that they are one Joe Doe Memorial Highway they may have a hard time getting back-up to find them.

And thus become the topic of the very next memorial mile.
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zachary_amaryllis

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Re: Signage for Trump highway in Oklahoma remains unfunded
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2021, 08:06:27 PM »

When is Lincoln Riley getting his three feet of highway signed?
Maybe we need to start selling naming right for highways?
Just imagine traffic report about an accident at the interchange of Google Turnpike and Verizon Parkway! Small county roads can be sold by the mile. After all, we already have "adopt a highway" - just bringing it one step up.
i'd buy naming rights, but somehow 'zachary amaryllis blvd' doesn't really ring to me.
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