Traffic signal

[jakeroot]

If I recall correctly, flashing yellow arrow right turn signals either having a leading protected phase OR on recall transitioning from the protected phase to the permissive phase must have a steady yellow arrow phase before going to either a steady red or flashing yellow arrow, correct? After the steady yellow arrow transitioning into the permissive phase, does it matter if there is a red arrow for a few seconds, or can it go directly to flashing yellow arrow?

A steady right-turn YELLOW ARROW signal indication shall be displayed following the right-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication.

This FYA right turn signal in Portsmouth NH (43.0778743, -70.7618545) has no steady yellow arrow clearance (on pedestrian recall) between the protected phase and permissive phase. For the record, if the pedestrian button was pressed before Maplewood Ave traffic has their green, there is an LPI during the walk phase, followed by the FYA during the DON'T WALK phase.

I think you are right that this is a violation of MUTCD.

It is definitely a good practice to transition from a more open phase to a more restrictive phase with a yellow.  This seems like a requirement of the MUTCD.  So (i) green-yellow-red, (ii) green arrow-yellow arrow-red arrow, (iii) green arrow-yellow arrow-flashing yellow arrow, and (iv) flashing yellow arrow-yellow arrow-red arrow would all be required transitions. 

Going from more restrictive to less restrictive does not require a transition (in this country), so you have red-green, red arrow-green arrow, red arrow-flashing yellow arrow, and flashing yellow arrow-green arrow.  Of course, some foreign countries do have the combined red-yellow phase as a warning that a green is coming.  This is disallowed here to discourage people from stepping on the gas as soon as the light turns green - but there may be some value to it, especially in the era of people using cell phones at red lights.

There are some cases where you'd see green arrow-yellow arrow-brief red arrow-flashing yellow arrow.  The brief red arrow phase is not required, to my knowledge, but is sometimes helpful for safety purposes to force drivers to assess the situation between the protected turn and the permissive turn.  There was no way of incorporating a brief red arrow on doghouse signals, but it does exist on many of the 4 aspect FYA signals.  It is especially helpful in places with lots of peds or other complicated situations.

I quite like watching the video that was posted (reposted as this is a separate page for me). There is something quite ingenious about switching to the flashing yellow arrow phase mid-phase. Granted, around here, I think the signal would be permanently resting in the flashing yellow arrow phase -- especially if oncoming traffic had a flashing yellow arrow (I think there is a rule against permissive left turns against a right turn with a green arrow?) -- but I appreciate that they allow the signal to change over to a flashing yellow arrow rather than requiring e.g. the side road to go first or something silly.

As it relates to the brief red: I have seen studies that show the brief red to improve safety. However, I don't recall the exact situation in the video (switching to permissive mid-phase) having been studied. It would seem that all available literature would suggest that a brief red would help, regardless of the situation, but I think it could actually be dropped here, employing instead: green arrow > solid yellow arrow > flashing yellow arrow.

Hell, to be honest, there's something about green arrow > flashing yellow arrow in the exact setup shown in the video that doesn't bother me. I don't know why, as going from protected to permissive without a transition phase is definitely not allowed anymore. Nevertheless, for the purpose of providing a flashing yellow arrow to the crosswalk, the current setup seems like it would work fine in practice. Probably because I get tired of waiting for actuated signals to accept pedestrian inputs? Hard to say, but there was something satisfying about how quickly that walk signal popped up.

[mrsman]

If I recall correctly, flashing yellow arrow right turn signals either having a leading protected phase OR on recall transitioning from the protected phase to the permissive phase must have a steady yellow arrow phase before going to either a steady red or flashing yellow arrow, correct? After the steady yellow arrow transitioning into the permissive phase, does it matter if there is a red arrow for a few seconds, or can it go directly to flashing yellow arrow?

A steady right-turn YELLOW ARROW signal indication shall be displayed following the right-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication.

This FYA right turn signal in Portsmouth NH (43.0778743, -70.7618545) has no steady yellow arrow clearance (on pedestrian recall) between the protected phase and permissive phase. For the record, if the pedestrian button was pressed before Maplewood Ave traffic has their green, there is an LPI during the walk phase, followed by the FYA during the DON'T WALK phase.

I think you are right that this is a violation of MUTCD.

It is definitely a good practice to transition from a more open phase to a more restrictive phase with a yellow.  This seems like a requirement of the MUTCD.  So (i) green-yellow-red, (ii) green arrow-yellow arrow-red arrow, (iii) green arrow-yellow arrow-flashing yellow arrow, and (iv) flashing yellow arrow-yellow arrow-red arrow would all be required transitions. 

Going from more restrictive to less restrictive does not require a transition (in this country), so you have red-green, red arrow-green arrow, red arrow-flashing yellow arrow, and flashing yellow arrow-green arrow.  Of course, some foreign countries do have the combined red-yellow phase as a warning that a green is coming.  This is disallowed here to discourage people from stepping on the gas as soon as the light turns green - but there may be some value to it, especially in the era of people using cell phones at red lights.

There are some cases where you'd see green arrow-yellow arrow-brief red arrow-flashing yellow arrow.  The brief red arrow phase is not required, to my knowledge, but is sometimes helpful for safety purposes to force drivers to assess the situation between the protected turn and the permissive turn.  There was no way of incorporating a brief red arrow on doghouse signals, but it does exist on many of the 4 aspect FYA signals.  It is especially helpful in places with lots of peds or other complicated situations.

I quite like watching the video that was posted (reposted as this is a separate page for me). There is something quite ingenious about switching to the flashing yellow arrow phase mid-phase. Granted, around here, I think the signal would be permanently resting in the flashing yellow arrow phase -- especially if oncoming traffic had a flashing yellow arrow (I think there is a rule against permissive left turns against a right turn with a green arrow?) -- but I appreciate that they allow the signal to change over to a flashing yellow arrow rather than requiring e.g. the side road to go first or something silly.

As it relates to the brief red: I have seen studies that show the brief red to improve safety. However, I don't recall the exact situation in the video (switching to permissive mid-phase) having been studied. It would seem that all available literature would suggest that a brief red would help, regardless of the situation, but I think it could actually be dropped here, employing instead: green arrow > solid yellow arrow > flashing yellow arrow.

Hell, to be honest, there's something about green arrow > flashing yellow arrow in the exact setup shown in the video that doesn't bother me. I don't know why, as going from protected to permissive without a transition phase is definitely not allowed anymore. Nevertheless, for the purpose of providing a flashing yellow arrow to the crosswalk, the current setup seems like it would work fine in practice. Probably because I get tired of waiting for actuated signals to accept pedestrian inputs? Hard to say, but there was something satisfying about how quickly that walk signal popped up.

I agree that a red arrow does not seem necessary in this context of going from protected to permitted on a right turn.

But I am uncomfortable with going from green arrow to FYA without a yellow arrow.  How would a car know that they would need to stop for a pedestrian?  The yellow arrow provides a minimal amount of reaction time to alert the driver that they may now have to yield to a pedestrian and their right is no longer fully protected.

I think the better approach would be to leave the signal resting on flashing yellow arrow, while adjacent thru has a green orb.  This way, for safety purposes, a right turning driver is always watching for peds.  There are only three criteria that I see for allowing a protected right turn phase: (i) concurrent with a complementary left turn - where thru traffic has a red orb and peds are prohibited from crossing anyway, (ii) If the ped crossing is heavy to allow dedicated time for right turns to have ROW to turn and peds are not allowed to cross during that timeframe, or (iii) if there is a bike path to the right, so it is important to totally separate right turning traffic from the bikes. 

It doesn't appear that the above intersection meets any of those criteria, so while the green orb is lit, the flashing yellow arrow should also be lit and if a ped pushes the button, the signal can provide an immediate pedestrian signal.

[Amtrakprod]

From the prior 2 examples, did the requirement of labeling bike signals go away?

There was a bike signal sign, but it was removed. No idea why


iPhone

[Amtrakprod]

While we're on the topic of bike signals, does anyone know how long a bicycle yellow is?

3 seconds like for cars, but sometimes it is given earlier than car yellows.


iPhone

[CoreySamson]

Interesting signals with two green bulbs near the LA state capitol in Baton Rouge:

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4561258,-91.1899521,3a,75y,294.65h,81.58t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDONOZF2UydnCXcoHh9Dr6w!2e0!5s20190601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Looks like a doghouse without the yellow arrow bulbs. I've never seen one like this before, but I assume there are probably others like this elsewhere?

[SkyPesos]

Interesting signals with two green bulbs near the LA state capitol in Baton Rouge:

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4561258,-91.1899521,3a,75y,294.65h,81.58t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDONOZF2UydnCXcoHh9Dr6w!2e0!5s20190601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Looks like a doghouse without the yellow arrow bulbs. I've never seen one like this before, but I assume there are probably others like this elsewhere?

This was discussed not that long ago here, in February of this year. Link to it: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5944.msg2576105#msg2576105

[kphoger]

Question:

Is this allowed?  The overhead signal has a left turn arrow, but the left-side post-mounted signal does not.

https://goo.gl/maps/iE5WWtj8MUVvizUN9

[Big John]

^^ Another example: https://goo.gl/maps/tdMQPBnCXszJsdWH6

[SignBridge]

I think in the Wichita example the installing agency made a mistake and forgot to spec the left-turn arrows in the far-left head. You could contact them and ask about it.

In the Wisconsin example I'm not sure, but again you could inquire with the agency involved. I agree the far left head should have a left arrow, not a green ball.

[jakeroot]

Interesting signals with two green bulbs near the LA state capitol in Baton Rouge:

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4561258,-91.1899521,3a,75y,294.65h,81.58t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDONOZF2UydnCXcoHh9Dr6w!2e0!5s20190601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Looks like a doghouse without the yellow arrow bulbs. I've never seen one like this before, but I assume there are probably others like this elsewhere?

This was discussed not that long ago here, in February of this year. Link to it: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5944.msg2576105#msg2576105

I think he was pointing out there being two green orbs on both signal heads? Hard to tell as I can't find any GSV showing the signals as green. That would be quite unusual. The signal shape is common enough but only to display a green arrow and green orbs adjacent to each other, not two green orbs.

[US71]

Interesting signals with two green bulbs near the LA state capitol in Baton Rouge:

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4561258,-91.1899521,3a,75y,294.65h,81.58t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDONOZF2UydnCXcoHh9Dr6w!2e0!5s20190601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Looks like a doghouse without the yellow arrow bulbs. I've never seen one like this before, but I assume there are probably others like this elsewhere?

I see those a lot in Louisiana...or used to.
.

[HTM Duke]

Interesting signals with two green bulbs near the LA state capitol in Baton Rouge:

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4561258,-91.1899521,3a,75y,294.65h,81.58t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDONOZF2UydnCXcoHh9Dr6w!2e0!5s20190601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Looks like a doghouse without the yellow arrow bulbs. I've never seen one like this before, but I assume there are probably others like this elsewhere?

This was discussed not that long ago here, in February of this year. Link to it: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5944.msg2576105#msg2576105

I think he was pointing out there being two green orbs on both signal heads? Hard to tell as I can't find any GSV showing the signals as green. That would be quite unusual. The signal shape is common enough but only to display a green arrow and green orbs adjacent to each other, not two green orbs.

I swapped the streetview to 2019, and I could see (in order): green left arrow, green ball, green ball, green right arrow.  Not a common setup in my experience, but I have seen this before in Arlington, VA: Sycamore St northbound at Washington Blvd.  In that example, the green arrow and ball terminate at the same time.  If that also happens here, it would render the need for yellow arrows moot.  I'm also left wondering if the left green arrow is not lit when the ped signal is active.

[kphoger]

Question:

Is this allowed?  The overhead signal has a left turn arrow, but the left-side post-mounted signal does not.

https://goo.gl/maps/iE5WWtj8MUVvizUN9

I think in the Wichita example the installing agency made a mistake and forgot to spec the left-turn arrows in the far-left head. You could contact them and ask about it.

I'm only going to contact them about it if it isn't allowed.  I'm not familiar with the stoplight setup part of the MUTCD.  So is it out of compliance, or is it OK?

(Until just a year or two ago, there was no left-turn signal there at all, which means an overhead three-aspect signal was recently replaced with an overhead five-aspect signal.)

[Dirt Roads]

Question:

Is this allowed?  The overhead signal has a left turn arrow, but the left-side post-mounted signal does not.

https://goo.gl/maps/iE5WWtj8MUVvizUN9

I think in the Wichita example the installing agency made a mistake and forgot to spec the left-turn arrows in the far-left head. You could contact them and ask about it.

I'm only going to contact them about it if it isn't allowed.  I'm not familiar with the stoplight setup part of the MUTCD.  So is it out of compliance, or is it OK?

(Until just a year or two ago, there was no left-turn signal there at all, which means an overhead three-aspect signal was recently replaced with an overhead five-aspect signal.)

In some municipalities here in the East, the traffic signal head mounted over the pedestrian signal is for the benefit of pedestrians (diffential between the countdown and the yellow phase).  The problem with this arrangement is that you have a yellow left arrow phase, so it looks like pedestrian signal might be timed after flipping a green arrow to yellow arrow to green ball.  For vehicles pushing through on a yellow left arrow, they might get "trapped" when pedestrians start to enter the street, but they are still looking at a green ball.  But that's probably not much different than a traffic signal with no protected left turn.

[jeffandnicole]

Question:

Is this allowed?  The overhead signal has a left turn arrow, but the left-side post-mounted signal does not.

https://goo.gl/maps/iE5WWtj8MUVvizUN9

I think in the Wichita example the installing agency made a mistake and forgot to spec the left-turn arrows in the far-left head. You could contact them and ask about it.

I'm only going to contact them about it if it isn't allowed.  I'm not familiar with the stoplight setup part of the MUTCD.  So is it out of compliance, or is it OK?

(Until just a year or two ago, there was no left-turn signal there at all, which means an overhead three-aspect signal was recently replaced with an overhead five-aspect signal.)

The opposing direction doesn't have a left turn arrow, so this direction will only show a green arrow when the rest of the signals are green anyway.  Is it the perfect setup?  It's ok.  Is it going to cause any confliction?  No.

[jakeroot]

Quite a few signals in Colorado have the left turn arrows overhead only, but have a left-side supplemental signal for the RYG orbs. Good example here.

As far as I know: having left-side through signals is either a requirement in some jurisdictions (mostly out west and in the upper Midwest), or is done to improve visibility of the through signal. Repeating the turn arrows for a 4-/5-section signal is helpful, but I'm not aware of any requirement to do so.

This signal in Tacoma, WA has a near-side signal for the curve, but the 5-section right-turn signal is only on the far-side. It's annoying as hell, as it's a tight corner and vehicles in the through lanes block the overhead signals until almost the stop line. Which is not good when the right turn green arrow is lit but you can't see it until basically the stop line for the right turn. Grrrr...

[SignBridge]

To answer kphoger's original question, I don't think there is any prohibition in the Federal Manual against having a green-ball to the left of a green left-turn arrow. However New York State, when they had their own Manual years ago, did have a rule prohibiting that practice. And I agree it's a bad configuration, just as in jakeroot's Tacoma example with the right-turn arrow.

[mrsman]

Part of my response on this begs the question on who benefits from the left side post mounted signal.  And the answer may be different under different configurations and in different states.

Where there are only two signal faces and no overheads, the left side mount is a necessary signal and is just as important as the right sidemount (or overhead).  It is there to benefit all who can see it: pedestrians, left turners, thru, and even right turners [if the other signal is blocked or burned out].

Where there are three or more signal faces, the answer is more nuanced.  I have always felt that the left sidemount is meant for left turning traffic, especially for permitted left turns.  It is in the right location for a driver who is making a left turn to be able to see the signal face, opposing traffic, and even pedestrians on the left side all at the same time.  So on a very technical basis, it would be OK for a driver to use that signal face during the permitted left turn phase to keep track of opposing traffic and pedestrians while waiting for a gap to make the left turn.  And it would only be OK if the protected left is leading, not lagging.  This is because the permitted phase that follows a protected phase will go from green-yellow-red and those are the signals that are displayed on the left.  With a lagging left, a green arrow could follow the green orb, yet our driver is so focused on the signal that he is looking at, that he does not even realize that a green arrow has been displayed for his benefit.

It is unlikely that the sidemount is for thru traffic, since there are two other signal faces that are more directly in line with the driver.  They will not be looking at the far left corner.

In some cases, the sidemount is for the benefit of pedestrians.  But in these examples, it would be terrible if a pedestrian relies on them, because green orb and green arrow are at times lit at the same time and a pedestrian should not be crossing during the arrow phase.

So to conclude, the practice does not seem to be illegal, but it is not a good practice.  Yet, there may be some reasons to have it in order to give the permitted left turns another signal face, but IMO it is bad to do that if you don't also copy the left arrow aspects as well.

[Kasey]

Here's some Eagle Mark IV's with Chinese arrow lenses:

https://www.instagram.com/p/COEgxz8BO-o/?igshid=1dl4okqaazp66

Again, I'm using Instagram because I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff.

[Big John]

^^ Those were disallowed starting with the 1971 MUTCD.  Though you found an old one out in the wild.

[Kasey]

Eagle Mark IV's with Chinese Arrow lenses

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8972737,-73.9723427,3a,15y,131.99h,99.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjOj7BG2OJ2SjMMfgokBuFw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DjOj7BG2OJ2SjMMfgokBuFw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D11.836911%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=1

[roadman65]

This one on EB Donald Ross Road on the Jupiter- Palm Beach Gardens Town Line in Palm Beach County, FL is actually a great idea.   The signal is not for the rail traffic, but for the intersection beyond it.

I would imagine that being the RR gantry is owned by FEC Railway, that the county or whichever municipality owns the signal had to go through a lot of red tape to get through the FEC brass, as they are one tough company to deal with.   They even prosecute pedestrians who get caught using their ROW as a short cut to show how vicious this company is.

[kphoger]

Similar to 29th Street in Wichita.

Is there a signal at the actual intersection too?  There is in the Wichita example.

[Dirt Roads]

This one on EB Donald Ross Road on the Jupiter- Palm Beach Gardens Town Line in Palm Beach County, FL is actually a great idea.   The signal is not for the rail traffic, but for the intersection beyond it.

I would imagine that being the RR gantry is owned by FEC Railway, that the county or whichever municipality owns the signal had to go through a lot of red tape to get through the FEC brass, as they are one tough company to deal with.   They even prosecute pedestrians who get caught using their ROW as a short cut to show how vicious this company is.

Notice that the FEC placed its railroad flashing light signals over the center of each lane (at least on these two left lanes).  One of the big issues is that most DOTs required the placement of the traffic signal heads at the same location as the railroad flashing light signals, and it is usually difficult to get the highway department to back down.  So we usually push the traffic signals way back off the railroad right-of-way and let the inspectors do their jobs.  And when I was an inspector, I did have to write up a few traffic signals for being in violation of the visibility regulations.  Fortunately, I never had an issues with the traffic folks on those projects.

I'm not sure if this was ever addressed in the MUTCD.

[UnumProvident101]

this intersection in Blue Ridge, GA has two 4-way traffic lights
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.8635474,-84.324919,3a,75y,42.82h,86.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sU4vJcU4fO4pu8Wn7FBowaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656