Washington-Minnesota road trip (but mostly Montana related)

[RustyK]

I'm really not sure where to post this - since the trip covered areas that span across 3 forums here.  I just got back from a trip with the fam driving from my home (near Seattle) to Brainerd, MN, via I-90 and I-94, with a side trip to Kalispell, MT on the way back. 

Observations/Questions:
1. Both I-15 and I-90 in Montana have exits for themselves:  When I-15 and I-90 merge through Butte, when I-15 leaves the I-90 mainline, it is I-15 that has the exit numbers and tabs, both for the I-15 mileage (I-90 is in the 220/230's mile range there, but to stay on I-15, you take exits numbered using I-15's milage at both ends).  Same with the I-90/I-94 split:  I-94 continues as the mainline, while you follow exit 456 (I think?) to stay on I-90 west of Billings.

2.  If I remember correctly, the BGS for I-115 near Butte says 115 EAST, but the first reassurance marker (visible from I-15/90 mainline) says 115 NORTH. 

3.  Probably answered before:  There's no evidence of the existance of I-115 if you're heading west on I-15/90.  The exit is westbound only, and the other end of the 15/90 Business Loop makes no mention of it (115 is new, isn't it?  I seem to remember that the route was simply 15/90 Buisiness as recently as 2002).  How often does such a thing, where a 3di is only mentioned/accessible from one direction of the mainline?

4.  US-93 either re-starts its milage or it carries another route's milage south of Missoula.  Heading north on 93 towards Kalispell, the mileage starts at 0 again... I think.  This is something I didn't notice until about 40 miles or so in, when I saw the milemarker we were at corresponded to the milage left to Kalispell (I don't remember exactly, but it was something like a milage sign showed 70 miles left for Kalispell, and we were at mile marker 42.  I remember distinctly that the first milage sign on 93 north of I-90 showed Kalispell as 112 miles away.)

5.  In Idaho, I forget the name of the town, but it's where Dave Smith Motors is (the car dealer that advertises all over the NW), a number of the towns had their Buisness Loop signage removed from the BGS.  There were like 3 or 4 total; I remember the first ttrip I took through there (in 01) that they were still there - I remembered thinking how comical it was that it seemed every town in Idaho had a BL.  I'm curious as to why those were taken away.

6. When did the bypass around Wallace open?  (Rather the section of I-90 through wallace). 

7. In MN:  How long ago were US 210 and US 371 decommishioned?  Considering the buildup along 371 now, including the fact that it's a high speed freeway-ish road from US 10 in Little Falls through Brainerd (and at some point a good chunk of the way up to Bimiji), would it ever be reconsidereed for a promotion back to US 371?


That's all I can remember for now. 

[TheStranger]

3.  Probably answered before:  There's no evidence of the existance of I-115 if you're heading west on I-15/90.  The exit is westbound only, and the other end of the 15/90 Business Loop makes no mention of it (115 is new, isn't it?  I seem to remember that the route was simply 15/90 Buisiness as recently as 2002).  How often does such a thing, where a 3di is only mentioned/accessible from one direction of the mainline?

I-980 (which does not intersect I-80) is only mentioned/accessible via I-880 northbound, not I-880 southbound, as one example out here.

Likewise, California's I-205 is only accessible from I-5 southbound, with no mention northbound (as travelers heading to the Bay Area would take I-580 coming in from the south).

6. When did the bypass around Wallace open?  (Rather the section of I-90 through wallace).  

Looking through Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace,_Idaho

Interstate 90
Interstate 90 passes through Wallace on an elevated freeway viaduct built in 1991. Until the freeway opened, I-90 traffic used a surface highway previously designated U.S. Route 10. The highway used the main city streets through downtown. Wallace had the last traffic light on a coast-to-coast Interstate highway. On September 15, 1991, the Idaho Department of Transportation moved I-90 to a freeway viaduct above the north side of the town. Prior to this the interstate turned into arterial streets on the western outskirts of town and followed the main road through town before becoming a highway again on Wallace's east side. The section of US 10 through Wallace is now designated Interstate 90 Business.

The Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) originally planned to build I-90 as an at-grade freeway. This plan would have demolished most of downtown Wallace. In the 1970s, city leaders undertook an effort to list downtown on the National Register of Historic Places with the result that now every building in downtown Wallace is on the National Register of Historic Places. The FHWA had to redesign I-90 to bypass downtown because federal law protects historic places from negative effects of highway construction.[4][5][6] The elevated viaduct is the FHWA's solution to this problem.

[corco]

Off the top of my head- you can't get to I-270 from I-70 east or I-25 north in Colorado, and you can't get to I-205 from I-5 North in Washington. You can't get to I-76 east from I-70 west.

In Idaho, I forget the name of the town, but it's where Dave Smith Motors is (the car dealer that advertises all over the NW), a number of the towns had their Buisness Loop signage removed from the BGS.  There were like 3 or 4 total; I remember the first ttrip I took through there (in 01) that they were still there - I remembered thinking how comical it was that it seemed every town in Idaho had a BL.  I'm curious as to why those were taken away.

That's odd- I'm not sure what's going on up in Kellogg. I've been on I-15 and 84 recently and there is still plentiful business loop signage in metropolises like Hammett and Inkom.

On a quasi-related note, I've noticed scenic highway signage disappearing from northern Idaho. I drove from Clarkston WA to Kooskia a few days ago and there was nary a brown 12 shield to be found in either direction (except on BGSes). A year ago, there was nary a black and white shield (except a couple right by the state line). Idaho 13 is down to one brown shield, and a year ago it was all brown shields as well.

That said, I drive from McCall to Boise on Idaho 55 a couple times a week, and all the signs on 55 are still marked as scenic, so I'm not sure what's going on there. They were also still amply posted on 30 between US-93 and Bliss about a month ago, so it must be a northern Idaho thing. Did you happen to notice disappearing brown and white signage? I think Idaho 97 is brown and white normally- maybe Idaho 4 too.

[agentsteel53]

That's odd- I'm not sure what's going on up in Kellogg. I've been on I-15 and 84 recently and there is still plentiful business loop signage in metropolises like Hammett and Inkom.

Kellogg had also been the home of a state-named I-90 shield, that is alas gone as well.  There are some rather old interstate and business loop shields on old US-10 if you know where to look - unfortunately Idaho went to neutered shields in 1961, so the oldest survivors all lack the state name.  In the late 70s and early 80s they put the state name back for a few years, and that is how old all the surviving state-named examples are.

On a quasi-related note, I've noticed scenic highway signage disappearing from northern Idaho. I drove from Clarkston WA to Kooskia a few days ago and there was nary a brown 12 shield to be found in either direction (except on BGSes). A year ago, there was nary a black and white shield (except a couple right by the state line). Idaho 13 is down to one brown shield, and a year ago it was all brown shields as well.

the last time I was in Idaho I took US-2 and that was plenty scenic in its signage.  I don't remember much about the previous trip, except for the huge variety in scenic route markers on the green signs on I-90.  White with brown, brown with white, white with brown with inverse state outline, you name it.  All three of those styles show up at the I-90/ID-97 junction.

[agentsteel53]

7. In MN:  How long ago were US 210 and US 371 decommishioned?  Considering the buildup along 371 now, including the fact that it's a high speed freeway-ish road from US 10 in Little Falls through Brainerd (and at some point a good chunk of the way up to Bimiji), would it ever be reconsidereed for a promotion back to US 371?

210 was taken away in 1972, 371 in 1971.  There is a state route 210 with gold-colored numbers that may very well be as old as the renumbering.  Minnesota switched to the white numbers sometime in the mid-70s.

as for 371, the number has been reappropriated to Louisiana. 

[froggie]

Per MnDOT, both were decommissioned in 1973.  The present-day Minnesota route marker was approved that same year.

To answer the second question, in a nutshell, no, given AASHTO's policy against single-state US routes.  MnDOT's dropping of US 210 and US 371 was adhering to that then-new policy.

[agentsteel53]

Per MnDOT, both were decommissioned in 1973.  The present-day Minnesota route marker was approved that same year.

do you have a more specific history of the Minnesota route markers?  I know they switched to the 1970-spec interstate shield in 1973 as well.  When did they use the Minnesota/US, and the MINN/number on white square, the cutouts, etc?

[okroads]

2.  If I remember correctly, the BGS for I-115 near Butte says 115 EAST, but the first reassurance marker (visible from I-15/90 mainline) says 115 NORTH.   

Yep...except it's the BGS that says 115 North and the assurance shield that says 115 East. I didn't even notice that until you mentioned this and I looked back at my pictures from May 27 and confirmed that is the case...

[Alex]

Observations/Questions:

3.  Probably answered before:  There's no evidence of the existance of I-115 if you're heading west on I-15/90.  The exit is westbound only, and the other end of the 15/90 Business Loop makes no mention of it (115 is new, isn't it?  I seem to remember that the route was simply 15/90 Buisiness as recently as 2002).  How often does such a thing, where a 3di is only mentioned/accessible from one direction of the mainline?

And until 1999, the Interstate 185 spur into Greenville, SC was only accessible (and therefore signed) from I-85 northbound via a partial "Y" interchange. Interstate 985 in Georgia is only accessible and signed from northbound I-85 via a partial "Y" as well.

[mightyace]

^^^

I-680 in Youngstown, OH is only directly accessible from I-80 East at the not quite full movement I-80/680/OH 11 interchange.

Like the others you have to do over surface streets, in this case, Salt Springs Rd., to get there from I-80 West or possibly via OH 711.

I-480's western end is like this as well.  You can only get to I-480 East directly from I-80 East but not I-80 West.

[RustyK]

No ideas on the US 93 milage restart?  I find myself still curious about that one.

[Scott5114]

Without knowing how MT inventories its highways, I couldn't say. I know Oklahoma has the concept of a "control section", where mileage is kept for each section, not an entire highway. The sections usually have boundaries at county lines and major junctions.

[elsmere241]

No ideas on the US 93 milage restart?  I find myself still curious about that one.

My guess is that Montana counts mileage seperately along non-multiplexed US highway segments.  When my wife and I were passing through Billings in 2004, we got off for gas where US 87 turns north from I-90.  There was a "0" mile marker there.

[agentsteel53]

Minnesota discussion moved here:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3171.0

[corco]

On a quasi-related note, I've noticed scenic highway signage disappearing from northern Idaho. I drove from Clarkston WA to Kooskia a few days ago and there was nary a brown 12 shield to be found in either direction (except on BGSes). A year ago, there was nary a black and white shield (except a couple right by the state line). Idaho 13 is down to one brown shield, and a year ago it was all brown shields as well.

So...as an update to that I drove down to Smith's Ferry today and all the signs on Idaho 55 between Cascade and there have turned black (I'd never seen a black sign before)- I drive that route at least once every two weeks these days, and was last down there last Thursday and the signs were brown. Now they are black. That makes 3 scenic highways in 2 (3?) maintenance districts that have had brown signs disappear in the last year, so I'm going to email ITD and see if this is an intentional phaseout.