Phoenix Area Loops

[OCGuy81]

I was out in Phoenix recently, and decided to take an extra day and drive up to Sedona.  From my hotel in Mesa, I hopped on US 60 (GREAT stretch of freeway.  Flows very nicely) and then took Loop 101 north to meet up with 17.

101 was a great freeway.  Wide, smooth surface, beautifully designed stacks, lots of new development off of the exits.  Have any of the Phoenix area loop routes (101,202, and perhaps 303 when or if that ever gets built) ever been under consideration for Interstate status?  They certainly seem to meet, maybe even exceed, the standards.

I could easily see these as I-217, or I-810 (chose the latter since there currently isn't an 810 in the system anywhere). Maybe even a routing of the future I-11 someday.  Were these ever meant to be part of the Interstate system?

[agentsteel53]

Were these ever meant to be part of the Interstate system?

I think they were planned too recently for that.  Phoenix experienced a lot of growth well after the interstate system was laid out.

that's why Detroit has a three-digit interstate and Phoenix does not.

[J N Winkler]

I tend to agree with Jake--very little if any of the Phoenix loops as they currently exist were considered as Interstates.  SR 51, however, is a revival of an I-510 proposal which failed in the 1970's, and US 60 (Superstition Freeway) was begun in 1970 (as SR 360) and finished (and renumbered US 60) in 1989, so most of it pre-dates both the Loops and certain Interstate segments in Phoenix such as the I-10 Hance Park tunnel.

[Alps]

They have no intent of adding their state freeways to the I-system, the only 3di ever there was absorbed into the I-10/17 loop. For whatever reason, I don't think they ever even requested to have the I-number. Maybe by that time the added funding wasn't available, so they saw no point. But I think it at least in part had to do with not going through the hassles of dealing with the FHWA to construct the highways - environmental requirements may have been a factor, for example.

[The High Plains Traveler]

IIRC - Phoenix fought freeways for many years, finally when the initial interstate funding opportunity had largely passed it voted itself a local sales tax to fund freeway construction.

[kphoger]

I tend to agree with Jake

He has such a sparkly personality, how could you not?

[Brandon]

Were these ever meant to be part of the Interstate system?

I think they were planned too recently for that.  Phoenix experienced a lot of growth well after the interstate system was laid out.

that's why Detroit has a three-digit interstate and Phoenix does not.

Not exactly.  Arizona did not apply for a number to AASHTO.  That's why I-355 (IL) has an interstate number, and Loop 101 (AZ) does not.  Some of Detroit's could have been interstates had MDOT applied for it.  They didn't.

[blawp]

I find arizona's freeways a bit crude. Nary a parclo to be found and silly ramp meters, unactuated, on timers (might as well have a stop sign).

[Brandon]

I find arizona's freeways a bit crude. Nary a parclo to be found and silly ramp meters, unactuated, on timers (might as well have a stop sign).

Crude?  They're in better shape than most Chicago or LA freeways with decent merging areas and widths.  Then again, most of them were built later as well.

[blawp]

No parclo no care

[qguy]

I find arizona's freeways a bit crude.

They certainly have better aesthetics than anything in Pennsylvania. PennDOT seems to think that aesthetics means putting some goofy design on the sound walls.

[Alps]

No parclo no care

No intelligence no care

[Alps]

I find arizona's freeways a bit crude. Nary a parclo to be found and silly ramp meters, unactuated, on timers (might as well have a stop sign).

Crude?  They're in better shape than most Chicago or LA freeways with decent merging areas and widths.  Then again, most of them were built later as well.

I would say Arizona's freeways are in the top 5 in the nation, along with places like Florida and Texas that are still building a bunch of new ones (Florida on the toll roads though). To a lesser degree, New Mexico and Nevada, but they only have a couple of freeways each outside rural nowhere.

[hm insulators]

I find arizona's freeways a bit crude. Nary a parclo to be found and silly ramp meters, unactuated, on timers (might as well have a stop sign).

Crude?  They're in better shape than most Chicago or LA freeways with decent merging areas and widths.  Then again, most of them were built later as well.

I would say Arizona's freeways are in the top 5 in the nation, along with places like Florida and Texas that are still building a bunch of new ones (Florida on the toll roads though). To a lesser degree, New Mexico and Nevada, but they only have a couple of freeways each outside rural nowhere.

I live in Phoenix and have to agree the freeways are not crude at all, with the possible exception of I-17 from about Dunlap Avenue south which can be a bit spooky; it's an old stretch of freeway that was built in the 1960s. Other than that, the freeways are far better than the ones in Los Angeles (trust me; I used to live in L.A. and still go there a couple of times a year for visits).

[Scott5114]

I would say Arizona's freeways are in the top 5 in the nation, along with places like Florida and Texas that are still building a bunch of new ones (Florida on the toll roads though). To a lesser degree, New Mexico and Nevada, but they only have a couple of freeways each outside rural nowhere.

What little I have seen of New Mexico highways makes me less apt to lump them in with Florida and Texas and more likely to throw them in the pile with Oklahoma and Pennsylvania.

Actually the impression I got was that Pennsylvania did a better job, on the whole.

[Stephane Dumas]

Speaking of Phoenix loops, how's the freeway upgrades of Loop-303 going between US-60 and I-10?

[The High Plains Traveler]

I would say Arizona's freeways are in the top 5 in the nation, along with places like Florida and Texas that are still building a bunch of new ones (Florida on the toll roads though). To a lesser degree, New Mexico and Nevada, but they only have a couple of freeways each outside rural nowhere.

What little I have seen of New Mexico highways makes me less apt to lump them in with Florida and Texas and more likely to throw them in the pile with Oklahoma and Pennsylvania.

Actually the impression I got was that Pennsylvania did a better job, on the whole.

New Mexico interstates are below the 50th, nay, 25th percentile in design quality. What do stand out are the two state highways constructed to freeway standards (U.S. 84 NW of Santa Fe, U.S. 70 E of Las Cruces), mainly by the comparison with what they replaced and their aesthetic values.

[agentsteel53]

U.S. 70 E of Las Cruces

even when this becomes an expressway with some driveway accesses at grade, the speed limit remains 75mph.  one of the few places outside of Texas where you will find that.  (maybe the only place in the US?)

[Compulov]

Speaking of Phoenix loops, how's the freeway upgrades of Loop-303 going between US-60 and I-10?

I think they're on schedule. At least the modified schedule after their funding got cut. My parents live a quarter mile from the 303 up in Peoria, so I've been checking out the work every time I head out there. ADOT has a blog that they keep relatively up to date if you're curious.

As someone who has lived in NJ almost all his life (and now PA), I think most of AZ's freeways, especially those around Phoenix are some of the best I've seen. In fairness, it's because most of the Phoenix freeways have been built in the last 25 years.

Oh... and SPUIs rule, Parclos drool 

[qguy]

As someone who has lived in NJ almost all his life (and now PA), I think most of AZ's freeways, especially those around Phoenix are some of the best I've seen. In fairness, it's because most of the Phoenix freeways have been built in the last 25 years.

Living in Bristol, you'll probably appreciate that from my perch in northeast Philadelphia, when I look at the greater Phoenix area and all the freeways the've built in the last 25 years, I covet, nay, lust for even half of the unbuilt freeways in the Philadelphia area. Even one of two of them would make my life much easier.

[OCGuy81]

I live in Phoenix and have to agree the freeways are not crude at all, with the possible exception of I-17 from about Dunlap Avenue south which can be a bit spooky; it's an old stretch of freeway that was built in the 1960s. Other than that, the freeways are far better than the ones in Los Angeles (trust me; I used to live in L.A. and still go there a couple of times a year for visits).

Living in southern California, I couldn't agree more!! The freeways here are great, but often clogged.  The Phoenix area freeways are nicely designed, have a great flow to them, and the traffic doesn't seem near as bad as anywhere in LA/OC.

One of my favorites was the junction of the US 60 Superstition Freeway and Loop 101.  The ramp from 60W-->101N is really long, but it's got a nice "flow" to it for lack of a better term.

US 60 is probably my favorite stretch of highway out there.  Lots of lanes and nice, free flowing interchanges.  Straight as an arrow too!

[Compulov]

Living in southern California, I couldn't agree more!! The freeways here are great, but often clogged.  The Phoenix area freeways are nicely designed, have a great flow to them, and the traffic doesn't seem near as bad as anywhere in LA/OC.

One of my favorites was the junction of the US 60 Superstition Freeway and Loop 101.  The ramp from 60W-->101N is really long, but it's got a nice "flow" to it for lack of a better term.

US 60 is probably my favorite stretch of highway out there.  Lots of lanes and nice, free flowing interchanges.  Straight as an arrow too!

Oh, traffic is bad at the wrong times of day. When heading home, I used to fly out at a time which meant I was commuting to Sky Harbor from the Northwest Valley during the tail end of the morning rush. 6 lanes of I-10 East sitting still was not uncommon.

As an aside, I wonder if the NJ Turnpike has the right idea with the 3-3-3-3 setup. Since each set of 3 lanes has a dedicated entrance and exit, does that help the road carry more traffic since you have less weaving across 6 lanes? There has to be a point where adding more lanes to a freeway has diminishing returns and I wonder if I-10 through Phoenix has reached that point.

But I agree. They have some really awesome freeway-freeway interchanges, especially between the loops and other roads, since they were all built in recent years. ADOT has also been proactive about constructing newer freeways in areas that are slated to get built up, but aren't quite there yet, securing land while it's cheaper. Of course that works both ways... as I drove along the new stretch of the 303 through the desert, I wondered just how the landscape would look in 30 years.

[oscar]

As an aside, I wonder if the NJ Turnpike has the right idea with the 3-3-3-3 setup. Since each set of 3 lanes has a dedicated entrance and exit, does that help the road carry more traffic since you have less weaving across 6 lanes? There has to be a point where adding more lanes to a freeway has diminishing returns and I wonder if I-10 through Phoenix has reached that point.

When growing up in southern California in the 70s, I remember the conventional wisdom on that subject was that with freeways wider than eight lanes (four in each direction), the additional lane changes largely offset the added capacity from the extra lanes, and so it would be better to build a second freeway than expand an existing freeway to ten or twelve lanes.  Of course, CalTrans nowadays breaks this rule regularly (such as on I-5 south of downtown Los Angeles), because building new freeways is so hard.

The N.J. Turnpike's 3-3-3-3 arrangement makes a lot of sense for that reason, even though the four separated roadways are all within the same right of way.

[The High Plains Traveler]

U.S. 70 E of Las Cruces

even when this becomes an expressway with some driveway accesses at grade, the speed limit remains 75mph.  one of the few places outside of Texas you will find that.  (maybe the only place in the US?)

Unless the 75 mph zone has been extended westward, the only stretch of 75 on U.S. 70 is across the White Sands Missile Range, where there is very limited side road traffic. (Makes exiting the drive at the White Sands National Monument, the east end of the 75 speed limit where it drops to 65 mph, very exciting). New Mexico has been expanding the use of 70 mph on rural expressways statewide.

[Alps]

NJ Turnpike's 3/3/3/3 setup is mostly for roadway management. If you get an accident in one set of lanes, you can shift traffic over to the next set. It also makes overnight construction easy - just close one roadway and set your crews up as you like. However, these are things you can also do when you have a single roadway with 6 lanes by partitioning off 3 of them... and you could easily have 7-8 lanes in the same ROW as 3/3.