One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. (Other than the Hornets/Bobcats/Hornets again.) Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.
Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.
Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.
I would have guessed Raleigh-Durham as their home town.
Charlotte has the NBA Hornets too which were very popular in the early 1990s before the Panthers came to town.
Talking about SC, Charleston could be a very worthy contender. In 2000, we had a metro population of about 550K. Now it is nearly 800K. Boeing moving in around 2010/11 was huge for our economy. They also helped our airport. We couldn't support a low-cost carrier for years, then we got JetBlue and Southwest about at the same time.
If the metro grows at about 15K a year (what it has grown by most years in the 2010s), we will be at a million by 2032.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.
I was thinking in terms of the two biggies, football and baseball. How close is 'close'? Richmond is about 100 miles from the Washington teams. Close enough that a lot of people in the area root for those teams. The Redskins training camp is in the city of Richmond.
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.
I was thinking in terms of the two biggies, football and baseball. How close is 'close'? Richmond is about 100 miles from the Washington teams. Close enough that a lot of people in the area root for those teams. The Redskins training camp is in the city of Richmond.
I would consider Richmond close enough to Washington DC to be considered represented by their sports team. As for baseball teams, I do however feel bad for the south because the only team down there outside of Texas and Florida is in Atlanta. Cities like Nashville and Charlotte or Raleigh deserve a team. I'm wondering if any of those cities are even wanting a baseball team.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 05:19:49 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.
I was thinking in terms of the two biggies, football and baseball. How close is 'close'? Richmond is about 100 miles from the Washington teams. Close enough that a lot of people in the area root for those teams. The Redskins training camp is in the city of Richmond.
I would consider Richmond close enough to Washington DC to be considered represented by their sports team. As for baseball teams, I do however feel bad for the south because the only team down there outside of Texas and Florida is in Atlanta. Cities like Nashville and Charlotte or Raleigh deserve a team. I'm wondering if any of those cities are even wanting a baseball team.
For baseball, most of Virginia is in "no team reaches 30%" territory, and the Nationals aren't even in the top three.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html#8,37.505,-79.059 (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html#8,37.505,-79.059) (warning: NYT allows only 5 free articles per month)
Quote from: 1 on August 10, 2018, 05:31:54 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 05:19:49 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.
I was thinking in terms of the two biggies, football and baseball. How close is 'close'? Richmond is about 100 miles from the Washington teams. Close enough that a lot of people in the area root for those teams. The Redskins training camp is in the city of Richmond.
I would consider Richmond close enough to Washington DC to be considered represented by their sports team. As for baseball teams, I do however feel bad for the south because the only team down there outside of Texas and Florida is in Atlanta. Cities like Nashville and Charlotte or Raleigh deserve a team. I'm wondering if any of those cities are even wanting a baseball team.
For baseball, most of Virginia is in "no team reaches 30%" territory, and the Nationals aren't even in the top three.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html#8,37.505,-79.059 (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html#8,37.505,-79.059) (warning: NYT allows only 5 free articles per month)
All the more reason to have a team in North Carolina. Also this map is from 2014 so it might be a little outdated. I would like to see a map of how the fanbases have changed since then.
The Nats don't have a very strong following because of the transient nature of the DC market. People move in and out and bring their fandom with them. Most of their following is concentrated within 20-25 miles of DC. Also, in DC they are probably a weak #2 at best, probably #3. The Redskins are so dominant, then the Caps have bypassed them after their Cup run.
Richmond has some Nats fans, but they used to have the AAA Braves team for decades so there are a decent amount of Braves fans.
A NC team would do very well. It'd draw from both Carolinas and southern Virginia. Any time the Braves are decent (like this year) a lot of people make road trips, even from our area (a 5 hour drive). All of the games are broadcast locally on the radio and have been for years.
Quote from: Sctvhound on August 10, 2018, 09:13:10 PM
The Nats don't have a very strong following because of the transient nature of the DC market. People move in and out and bring their fandom with them. Most of their following is concentrated within 20-25 miles of DC. Also, in DC they are probably a weak #2 at best, probably #3. The Redskins are so dominant, then the Caps have bypassed them after their Cup run.
Richmond has some Nats fans, but they used to have the AAA Braves team for decades so there are a decent amount of Braves fans.
True indeed. Plus the Nats are still fairly new to the D.C. area, even though they were around for decades as the Montreal Expos.
Sports teams don't really have much of an effect on what develops into a major city or not.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2018, 04:56:29 AM
Sports teams don't really have much of an effect on what develops into a major city or not.
Either way. Green Bay is still a small city.
A friend of mine once suggested to someone in the Nats' marketing department that they market the Nats as "your second team," since so many people move to DC and bring their allegiances with them. I don't think that idea actually went anywhere.
Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 06:07:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2018, 04:56:29 AM
Sports teams don't really have much of an effect on what develops into a major city or not.
Either way. Green Bay is still a small city.
NE Wisconsin (as a region - basically from WI 23 on north) is overall larger than one might think. I-41 northward from WI 26 in Oshkosh, WI through the Green Bay area to the US 41/141 split at the Abrams Interchange either is six lanes or warrants upgrading to six lanes. Through the Green Bay metro area itself, it has eight mainline lanes. Right now, it is also the most populous market in the contiguous 48 USA states without common-carrier rail passenger service (Grrrrrr....).
Mike
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 11, 2018, 08:26:33 AM
A friend of mine once suggested to someone in the Nats' marketing department that they market the Nats as "your second team," since so many people move to DC and bring their allegiances with them. I don't think that idea actually went anywhere.
I was routing for the Baltimore Orioles as the team local to Richmond, before the Nats arrived. The Orioles have done poorly for the last 20 years or so and now I don't really pay much attention to MLB.
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.
Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.
Did the former ABA Kentucky Colonels play in Louisville?
Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.
For NFL and MLB -- Orlando, Raleigh, Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, Albany, Columbus, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, San Antonio. All over 1 million metro, some over 2 million.
Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.
For NFL and MLB -- Orlando, Raleigh, Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, Albany, Columbus, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, San Antonio. All over 1 million metro, some over 2 million.
I could see a few of these happening, but Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, and Albany are too small for any major league sports to put a team there. Orlando might be able to host a football team because there's a stadium there, and maybe Oklahoma City, San Antonio or Salt Lake City. They could all probably host baseball teams as well along with Raleigh. Raleigh's too close to the Panthers to have a football team though.
Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.
For NFL and MLB -- Orlando, Raleigh, Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, Albany, Columbus, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, San Antonio. All over 1 million metro, some over 2 million.
Little Rock isn't over a million, and Montgomery isn't even over 500,000. Albany and Knoxville only get over a million if you use their CSA instead of the MSA.
Other MSAs over 1 million without either NFL or MLB:
Portland
Sacramento
Las Vegas
Austin
Providence
Memphis
Richmond
Hartford
Birmingham
Rochester
Grand Rapids
Tucson
All that said, 1 million is no longer a large enough threshold for a pro sports franchise, especially MLB or NFL. Based on Commissioner Manfred's comments (who mentioned Portland, Charlotte, Nashville, and Las Vegas as potential expansion sites) 2 million is the minimum nowadays.
Quote from: DTComposer on August 11, 2018, 11:32:11 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.
For NFL and MLB -- Orlando, Raleigh, Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, Albany, Columbus, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, San Antonio. All over 1 million metro, some over 2 million.
Little Rock isn't over a million, and Montgomery isn't even over 500,000. Albany and Knoxville only get over a million if you use their CSA instead of the MSA.
Other MSAs over 1 million without either NFL or MLB:
Portland
Sacramento
Las Vegas
Austin
Providence
Memphis
Richmond
Hartford
Birmingham
Rochester
Grand Rapids
Tucson
All that said, 1 million is no longer a large enough threshold for a pro sports franchise, especially MLB or NFL. Based on Commissioner Manfred's comments (who mentioned Portland, Charlotte, Nashville, and Las Vegas as potential expansion sites) 2 million is the minimum nowadays.
Las Vegas is getting a team now that the Raiders are moving there. Portland and Austin could use a team. Hartford and Providence are close enough to be represented by Boston (who has teams in all 4 major league sports), and most of the rest are in the same state as an already existing team. I bet Memphis could maybe get a baseball team?
The location of the Giants and Jets in NJ has long been a point of humor or contention, and can start a bar fight pretty easily. This is why the Jets tried hard to move to Manhattan a few years ago. In thise case it's not so much the perception of NY that suffers as the perception of these teams... and it doesn't help that people all have stereotypes of NJ based on what they see on the Turnpike (which includes the Meadowlands of course). We've also lost the Nets, so NJ only having one sports team with its name on it is somewhat of a negative in itself. Would be nice to have at least one of the two football teams join them.
Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 07:06:15 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 11, 2018, 08:26:33 AM
A friend of mine once suggested to someone in the Nats' marketing department that they market the Nats as "your second team," since so many people move to DC and bring their allegiances with them. I don't think that idea actually went anywhere.
I was routing for the Baltimore Orioles as the team local to Richmond, before the Nats arrived. The Orioles have done poorly for the last 20 years or so and now I don't really pay much attention to MLB.
We scored the wild card in 2012, American League East in 2014, and wild card again in 2016. There was a 5 year period this decade that we were awesome. I blame GM Duquette being courted by Toronto in 2015 and the contentious management between him, Buck, Brady, and Angelos for our sharp descent back to crapdom in 2018.
When Penn State's records from 1998-2011 were invalidated, Mike and I jokingly asked where the O's could sign up to have their records lost from those years because they coincidentally lined up perfectly with our losing record.
iPhone
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 12, 2018, 12:49:06 AM
I bet Memphis could maybe get a baseball team?
Considering Commissioner Manfred specifically called out Nashville and not Memphis as a potential expansion site:
https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/07/19/commissioner-rob-manfred-possible-expansion-cities
and the Nashville metro area is growing at nearly 2% per year, while the Memphis metro area is growing about ¼% per year, I'd say it's a safe bet that Memphis is not on the short list.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 12, 2018, 12:49:06 AM
Austin could use a team
My understanding with both San Antonio and Austin (both of which are big enough to support a team) is that the teams in Dallas and Houston would be very unwilling to part with the territorial rights to San Antonio and/or Austin, and this will unfortunately make it difficult to get MLB or NFL in those cities anytime soon.
On the other hand, Detroit has all four (MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA) within a quarter-mile of each other downtown, and right now all of them suck. Does that have any effect?
Nashville recently just built a new baseball stadium, would that have any bearing on them being an expansion for MLB team in the near future.
As for my hometown, I'm sure most in Indianapolis are satisfied with the Colts and Pacers at the current moment.
Quote from: Laura on August 12, 2018, 09:53:20 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 07:06:15 PM
I was rooting for the Baltimore Orioles as the team local to Richmond, before the Nats arrived. The Orioles have done poorly for the last 20 years or so and now I don't really pay much attention to MLB.
We scored the wild card in 2012, American League East in 2014, and wild card again in 2016. There was a 5 year period this decade that we were awesome. I blame GM Duquette being courted by Toronto in 2015 and the contentious management between him, Buck, Brady, and Angelos for our sharp descent back to crapdom in 2018.
iPhone
They have had more recent success than I thought. I was excited by them winning the 1983 World Series (I-95 series with the Phillies), but it seemed over the next 20 years or so that why bother following their seasons.
The sports teams of the DC area definitely affect the city's reputation. For example, thanks to decades of relatively poor play and irrelevancy by the Redskins and Wizards resulting in low/mediocre attendance, DC in both the NFL and NBA is often thought of as a weak sports town. However, for the Nationals and Capitals, it is quite different. Thanks to about a decade of postseason collapses by both the Nats and Caps(before they won the Cup), DC was often referred to as Choke City. In fact, last year after the Nats lost to Cubs in NLDS, I was so pissed that I designed/bought a shirt on Custom Ink that said simply "Choke City" with a picture of the DC skyline. About 90% of all the people that talked to me about my shirt knew exactly why.
I can say that internationally it does affect what cities are well known.
For example, Leeds is one of the largest cities in England by population (though the method is always in dispute) but its lack of a Premier League club (thanks to 20+ years of decline) has led international fans to have little knowledge of the place.
The Premier League presence in places like Blackburn, Watford, Brighton, and West Bromwich have inflated their importance to the international audience, despite being somewhat middling cities.
Quote from: Bruce on August 13, 2018, 02:45:30 AM
I can say that internationally it does affect what cities are well known.
For example, Leeds is one of the largest cities in England by population (though the method is always in dispute) but its lack of a Premier League club (thanks to 20+ years of decline) has led international fans to have little knowledge of the place.
The Premier League presence in places like Blackburn, Watford, Brighton, and West Bromwich have inflated their importance to the international audience, despite being somewhat middling cities.
I don't think many Americans who don't follow the Premier League know where those cities are.
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 13, 2018, 03:07:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 13, 2018, 02:45:30 AM
I can say that internationally it does affect what cities are well known.
For example, Leeds is one of the largest cities in England by population (though the method is always in dispute) but its lack of a Premier League club (thanks to 20+ years of decline) has led international fans to have little knowledge of the place.
The Premier League presence in places like Blackburn, Watford, Brighton, and West Bromwich have inflated their importance to the international audience, despite being somewhat middling cities.
I don't think many Americans who don't follow the Premier League know where those cities are.
I've heard of Leeds, but I've never heard of Watford or West Bromwich, and to me, Blackburn is a politician from Tennessee, and Brighton is a neighborhood in Boston.
Likewise, in Spain a good search for men and a wise usage of avalaible money has made several teams to promote to La Liga, and thus making the following otherwise middling cities known to the international audience:
Eibar: in the Basque Country between Bilbao and Donostia/San Sebastian. Arguably one of the ugliest cities in Spain.
Leganes: suburb of Madrid, neighboring Getafe (which also has a team in La Liga).
Girona: in Catalonia between Barcelona and the French border. Worth a visit.
Huesca: in Aragon (ergo in the middle of elsewhere) between Zaragoza and the French border. Oh, and I've said this is where I've lived for all of my existence so far? :sombrero:
However the ultimate example of this is Hoffenheim, Germany. A 6000 inhabitant village in Sinsheim municipality near the Rhine-Neckar area, it would be otherwise unknown beyond the local area if it wasn't for its team promoting all the way to the Bundesliga. This is exactly what I miss in the closed American leagues, thus preventing lesser known cities to have international recognition through sports like European cities can.
Quote from: 1 on August 13, 2018, 05:43:02 AMI've heard of Leeds, but I've never heard of Watford or West Bromwich, and to me, Blackburn is a politician from Tennessee, and Brighton is a neighborhood in Boston.
I know where Watford (just outside, and to the North of, Greater London) and Brighton (on the South coast of England) are, but the exact location of Blackburn and West Bromwich escapes me at this moment.
In North America, the era of expansion, born of the end of the democrat/Jim Crow system in the South, which made black athletes able to travel and live anywhere; the invention of air conditioning and construction of the interstates, which made much more of the country livable and thus caused the Sun Belt to develop; and the age of jet travel, which made truly national leagues possible (obviously once-a-week football could do this earlier) is over.
Yeah, you can find this or that town and say it is the same size as some major league city. Doesn't really matter. The leagues are too big now. Especially in baseball, regional loyalties are a strong contraindication to expansion.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 12, 2018, 10:24:50 AM
On the other hand, Detroit has all four (MLB, NFL, NHL, NBA) within a quarter-mile of each other downtown, and right now all of them suck. Does that have any effect?
Nationally yes, not a lot of coverage. Locally, not really. I'm sure if you were offered tickets you'd still go to games and watch them suck live rather than on the TV.
Same thing is going on with the White Sox. I'd rather watch them suck live than waste my time watching them lose on TV. Already been to 3 games and going to a 4th in 2 weeks, 2-1 so far ;)
If I refer to the actual subject title (and not another sports expansion thread, which this turned into real quick)...
Philadelphia's fans have given Philly a pretty lousy reputation. Which is unfortunate, because it seems like the sports media is real quick to find something, anything, to say how bad Philly's fans are. And there's no taking away that there's been some relatively minor incidents over the years. But the media loves to pick up on these relatively minor Philly incidents. More major incidents in other cities get a small nod by the media, but they won't be mentioned exhaustively for the next 50 years.
The city of Philadelphia did get a bit lucky though by beating the New England Patriots (you may think the Eagles beat them...no, the entire city and its fans beat them!). Because people around the country were getting a bit tired of the Patriots winning, especially with several questionable events going on by the team over the years, the Eagles became kinda like a national favorite for this year's Superbowl which has definitely translated into a better overall perception of the city.
The last 33 years have been very good to Chicago sports fans, since all five teams have won championships in their respective sports, starting with the Bears, who won Super Bowl XX; then the Bulls, who did the three-peat not once, but twice (1991-93, and again in 1996-98); the 2005 White Sox, whose last championship was 88 years before that; the Blackhawks, who broke a 49-year drought in 2010 and then won two more in 2013 and 2015; and finally, the 2016 Cubs, whose 108-year drought was the granddaddy of them all, but was at last vanquished. It makes me truly thankful to one of those fans, because, as the old saying goes, hope springs eternal, and I'm so happy that I could see them all come out on top.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 13, 2018, 09:53:57 AM
Philadelphia's fans have given Philly a pretty lousy reputation. Which is unfortunate, because it seems like the sports media is real quick to find something, anything, to say how bad Philly's fans are. And there's no taking away that there's been some relatively minor incidents over the years.
Lots of Redskins fans are quite nervous about attending Redskins-Eagles games in Philadelphia, when dressed in Redskins gear. They don't want to get the crap beat out of them.
Quote from: Beltway on August 13, 2018, 10:34:27 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 13, 2018, 09:53:57 AM
Philadelphia's fans have given Philly a pretty lousy reputation. Which is unfortunate, because it seems like the sports media is real quick to find something, anything, to say how bad Philly's fans are. And there's no taking away that there's been some relatively minor incidents over the years.
Lots of Redskins fans are quite nervous about attending Redskins-Eagles games in Philadelphia, when dressed in Redskins gear. They don't want to get the crap beat out of them.
I've been attending the games for the past 15 years. The fans there today are basically the same fans there 15 years ago. They're now older and more mellow. Yeah, you're probably going to be called an asshole, just like any opposing fan visiting an opposing NFL stadium anywhere. But unless someone does something extremely stupid, everyone will survive. You can even wear Cowboys stuff into the stadium and be fine!
Oh, and speaking of reputations - the "jail cell" and "Eagles Court" that people still reference was there for the start of the first season in the Linc in Philly. Hasn't been there for 14 years, yet people still act as if it's a regular thing. It was basically a small storage closet.
As much as I've seen stuff like what you mentioned referenced, and try to say the same thing I just said to you, there's bound to be someone who's never attended a game in their life talking about how bad it is there and that just continues the myth/legend.
Quote from: 1 on August 13, 2018, 05:43:02 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 13, 2018, 03:07:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 13, 2018, 02:45:30 AM
I can say that internationally it does affect what cities are well known.
For example, Leeds is one of the largest cities in England by population (though the method is always in dispute) but its lack of a Premier League club (thanks to 20+ years of decline) has led international fans to have little knowledge of the place.
The Premier League presence in places like Blackburn, Watford, Brighton, and West Bromwich have inflated their importance to the international audience, despite being somewhat middling cities.
I don't think many Americans who don't follow the Premier League know where those cities are.
I've heard of Leeds, but I've never heard of Watford or West Bromwich, and to me, Blackburn is a politician from Tennessee, and Brighton is a neighborhood in Boston.
I've heard of Blackburn only because of The Beatles song, A Day In The Life lol.
San Francisco Giants and Golden State Warriors they sparked China Basin and Mission Bay to become gentrified in San Francisco City Proper.
The area surrounding AT&T Park and Chase Center was once an industrial wasteland but is now the most expensive part of the City attracting biotech startup companies and Tech venture capitalists companies to the area.
Golden One Center the Home of the Sacramento Kings on J Street is built on a former downtown mall is now gentrifying Downtown Sacramento and its clearly meant to attract superpacs and Lobbyists to Downtown Sac.
Oakland A's will be the last Sports Team in Oakland as there was talks to move the team in San Jose at one point but the 49ers got the spot that the A's Initially wanted though and the territory debates came into play.
West Sacramento has the Raley stadium and it was built at the same time as the AT&T Park. Raley field is on a former warehouse. But the area surrounding West Sacramento started having newer houses and to a certain extent was made to attract a similar crowd as Downtown Sacramento Next Door.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raley_Field
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SB&p_theme=sb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB0478FA66ACC80&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
Quote from: bing101 on August 26, 2018, 09:13:55 AM
Oakland A's will be the last Sports Team in Oakland as there was talks to move the team in San Jose at one point but the 49ers got the spot that the A's Initially wanted though and the territory debates came into play.
West Sacramento has the Raley stadium and it was built at the same time as the AT&T Park. Raley field is on a former warehouse. But the area surrounding West Sacramento started having newer houses and to a certain extent was made to attract a similar crowd as Downtown Sacramento Next Door.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raley_Field
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SB&p_theme=sb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB0478FA66ACC80&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
I thought the stadium would be large enough to attract the A's to leave Oakland, but it turns out that's not the case.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 25, 2018, 05:23:46 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 13, 2018, 05:43:02 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 13, 2018, 03:07:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 13, 2018, 02:45:30 AM
I can say that internationally it does affect what cities are well known.
For example, Leeds is one of the largest cities in England by population (though the method is always in dispute) but its lack of a Premier League club (thanks to 20+ years of decline) has led international fans to have little knowledge of the place.
The Premier League presence in places like Blackburn, Watford, Brighton, and West Bromwich have inflated their importance to the international audience, despite being somewhat middling cities.
I don't think many Americans who don't follow the Premier League know where those cities are.
I've heard of Leeds, but I've never heard of Watford or West Bromwich, and to me, Blackburn is a politician from Tennessee, and Brighton is a neighborhood in Boston.
I've heard of Blackburn only because of The Beatles song, A Day In The Life lol.
And I heard of Brighton from Brighton Rock by Queen (jk. It was the Boston neighborhood)
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 26, 2018, 07:57:09 PM
Quote from: bing101 on August 26, 2018, 09:13:55 AM
Oakland A's will be the last Sports Team in Oakland as there was talks to move the team in San Jose at one point but the 49ers got the spot that the A's Initially wanted though and the territory debates came into play.
West Sacramento has the Raley stadium and it was built at the same time as the AT&T Park. Raley field is on a former warehouse. But the area surrounding West Sacramento started having newer houses and to a certain extent was made to attract a similar crowd as Downtown Sacramento Next Door.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raley_Field
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SB&p_theme=sb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB0478FA66ACC80&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM
I thought the stadium would be large enough to attract the A's to leave Oakland, but it turns out that's not the case.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/barrymbloom/2018/03/13/as-down-to-nitty-gritty-in-location-of-new-ballpark/#50f7cf5d2271
Well now the A's are talking about building a new stadium in where Oracle Arena is located. Basically right after the Warriors move next door to AT&T park and Raiders move to Vegas this will happen.
^^^^^^^^
Basically the MLB situation in Northern California is a settled matter; neither the A's nor the Giants are going anywhere. But in the NFL things are more in flux, considering the Raiders' move to Vegas. Jerry Jones (Cowboys' owner) has recently dropped the gauntlet when he called for an 18-game regular season, eliminating a couple of exhibition games (and lessening chances of veterans' injury). At this point, IMO, it's only a matter of time before NFL expansion to what would logically be 36 teams is up for debate. If that occurs, there are only a few places with the requisite aptitude to be considered for a NFL relocation; one of those would likely be the West Coast/Mountain extended region. Eliminating cities that lost NFL teams (San Diego, Oakland) or where proximity to existing teams might be problematic (San Jose), that leaves Honolulu, Portland, SLC, and Sacramento. Travel time and league expenses likely doom any Hawaii location; the chances for public funds' expenditure re a Portland facility are virtually nil. But given the fact that there are at least tens of thousands of Raiders fans in Northern California with little to look forward to post the Vegas move, the scenario shifts to Sacramento over SLC for the Far West team expansion site. And while the city of Sacramento itself might not be willing or able to financially or otherwise accommodate a 2nd major pro facility in a short time frame, there are other neighboring cities (Roseville/Lincoln, Elk Grove, West Sacramento) who would likely welcome a NFL stadium siting. With an incorporated population of about 480K and a metro area exceeding 2M -- and a welcoming if limited record with pro franchises, it's likely Sacramento would at least make the final cut regarding NFL expansion.
https://whitecleatbeat.com/2018/08/23/oakland-athletics-stadium-fans-reboot/
Here is the latest on the Oakland A's Stadium talks.
I will make a bet that if the New Oakland A's is approved gentrification talks will come into play. Just like San Francisco and Sacramento a new stadium will spark gentrification talks.
The majors, minors and college sports are beneficial to a city, because people love to root for their home team. In my area, Palm Springs has the collegiate level baseball Palm Springs Power, the California Winter League (instructional) and not far is the California League's teams in Rancho Cucamonga, San Bernardino and Lake Elsinore (this one used to be in Palm Springs 25 years ago). We have a proposed 12,000-seat sports arena broke ground in Palm Desert and I'm all for it, the project will lead to new sports teams in a place better known for golf, tennis and polo, but Im more interested in baseball and ice hockey though. IMO, the Arizona Coyotes NHL team should move here to have rivalries with the Kings, Ducks and the new (very good) Vegas Golden Knights. But, they rather have 15-20,000 seat arenas which larger Phoenix should approve for them to stay.
Further down in the desert, I recall Yuma had major league baseball spring training just like Palm Springs did in the 1990s (when a Japanese pro team the Yakult Swallows' held a spring training camp in Yuma). The Yuma area which includes Imperial county and Mexicali on the other side of the border, it's a low-populated and high-poverty economic market, however you can find basketball (Mexican league close to NBA standards), American football (US-based Indoor, yet Mexico has its own pro league) and soccer (division-2 Mexico). Mexicali has an arena and a stadium each, and the area has a million people on both sides of the border. It helps their area have something worth in entertainment. The basketball Soles, arena football Centinelas, and soccer Cachanillas represent the Imperial valley equally with Mexicali. There's a saying in Sacramento and Oklahoma City: you're not a farm town if you have a major league team.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 25, 2018, 05:23:46 PM
Quote from: 1 on August 13, 2018, 05:43:02 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 13, 2018, 03:07:58 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 13, 2018, 02:45:30 AM
I can say that internationally it does affect what cities are well known.
For example, Leeds is one of the largest cities in England by population (though the method is always in dispute) but its lack of a Premier League club (thanks to 20+ years of decline) has led international fans to have little knowledge of the place.
The Premier League presence in places like Blackburn, Watford, Brighton, and West Bromwich have inflated their importance to the international audience, despite being somewhat middling cities.
I don't think many Americans who don't follow the Premier League know where those cities are.
I've heard of Leeds, but I've never heard of Watford or West Bromwich, and to me, Blackburn is a politician from Tennessee, and Brighton is a neighborhood in Boston.
I've heard of Blackburn only because of The Beatles song, A Day In The Life lol.
Blackburn relative to Liverpool..
https://tinyurl.com/y84t7kzl
Not to be confused with Black
pool...
https://tinyurl.com/yb4cgjcy
West Bromwich relative to Birmingham...
https://tinyurl.com/y96fgbzx
Neither Blackpool nor Blackburn nor West Bromwich Albion are currently in the Premier League. West Brom was relegated last spring. Blackpool and Blackburn were demoted in 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackpool_F.C.#/media/File:Blackpool_FC_League_Performance.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Rovers_F.C.#/media/File:Blackburn_Rovers_FC_League_Performance.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bromwich_Albion_F.C.#/media/File:WestBromwichAlbionFC_League_Performance.svg
ixnay
Quote from: Desert Man on September 03, 2018, 12:57:54 PMI recall Yuma had major league baseball spring training just like Palm Springs did in the 1990s (when a Japanese pro team the Yakult Swallows' held a spring training camp in Yuma).
Didn't the SD Padres train in Yuma during the '70s and into the '80s?
ixnay
Quote from: ixnay on September 04, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: Desert Man on September 03, 2018, 12:57:54 PMI recall Yuma had major league baseball spring training just like Palm Springs did in the 1990s (when a Japanese pro team the Yakult Swallows' held a spring training camp in Yuma).
Didn't the SD Padres train in Yuma during the '70s and into the '80s?
ixnay
Yes , the Padres did from 1969 to 92, and moved their facility to the Phoenix metro area. The then California Angels in Palm Springs from 1961 to 92 as well went to Arizona (Tempe). Ironically, the L.A. Dodgers spring training site was Vero Beach, Fla. from the 1940s when they were in Brooklyn to 2008 when the facility moved west to be closer to SoCal (Glendale, AZ).
Quote from: Bruce on August 13, 2018, 02:45:30 AMFor example, Leeds is one of the largest cities in England by population (though the method is always in dispute) but its lack of a Premier League club (thanks to 20+ years of decline) has led international fans to have little knowledge of the place.
They've not been out of it
that long (2004). And were Champions League semi-finalists this century just before the start of the decade-long (not 20 years - not least as that would last until 2022 and unless you have a crystal ball...) decline. Nottingham Forest have been gone longer (1999), and certainly Nottingham is on the same tier as Leeds when it comes to UK cities.
Bristol is the best example though, as they don't particularly have any good teams in popular leagues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Bristol) - OK, the Bears Rugby Union team got promoted to the top tier league last year, so we'll hear about their exploits, but the other teams are either semi-pro (or amateur) sports, or in the second tier at best.
There's a reason why you picked Leeds rather than better examples - because you are aware of the city from the football, which kind of defeats the point you are trying to make about Leeds, but proves the general point.
QuoteThe Premier League presence in places like Blackburn, Watford, Brighton, and West Bromwich have inflated their importance to the international audience, despite being somewhat middling cities.
Other than them all being towns, not cities (though Brighton and Hove has city status).... Also, Brighton is the functional centre of the 15th largest urban area (and also 15th largest metropolitan area) in the UK, and Blackburn half of the 22nd largest metropolitan area with Burnley.
Watford and West Bromwich could be treated as London and Birmingham clubs respectively (albeit controversially so in those places, especially West Brom) - certainly they serve relatively big and populated hinterlands (NW London and the NW bit of the commuter belt, and the Black Country, respectively).
We have teams for Everton, Aston Villa, Queen's Park Rangers, Charlton, etc that are settlements that were never even towns! And Crystal Palace was a building (built for the 1851 Great Exhibition) that they moved to a new park on what was then the edge of London before it burnt down in the 1930s!
And, of course, don't forget that the English Football league system is based on merit, not franchises (MK Dons controversy excepted). Theoretically, if they win their division 10 years in a row and build a stadium that complies with league rules as they get promoted, then the tiny team that Paul Scholes played for at the weekend (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45385162) would be in the Premier League.
----
There's always stuff that inflates/dampens cities' importance. Oxford and Cambridge aren't especially big, and Durham is pretty small (and St Andrews tiny), but history and famous Universities inflate their importance. Edinburgh will be the most popular answer to 'name a city in Scotland', though Glasgow is bigger, because Edinburgh has the cultural and political importance.
Watford (my place of birth) is inflated in importance compared to Wycombe (which hits par for its size), despite being similar in size and location, as Watford is on the more major railway, has significantly superior retail options, is signed from further away, has a better football team (both lost their successful Premiership Rugby clubs, which ground-shared with the football teams about 10 years ago), etc.
And people underestimate Bournemouth's size - the Premier League team has put it on the map, but because half it's nearly 500k urban area is in different towns (Poole, Christchurch), it seems less important. Plus it's tucked away, not particular on the way to anywhere, but not at an extreme end of the country (cf Plymouth, Aberdeen, Exeter, etc) and hidden by the presence of Southampton. It's not some historically important place, nor some big player in academia or industry or whatever, nor somewhere people pass through to go to other places, so people aren't as aware of it.
Green Bay has the Packers promoting their brand, so they punch big for an urban area (much bigger than I expected) of 206,520.
Brighton has an urban area of 474,485 (just smaller than Edinburgh, and a bit bigger than Cardiff), though it does spread for some distance along the coast, diluting it a bit.
Blackburn has an urban area of 146,521. Other previously Premier League Lancastrian towns (and one present one) include Burnley (149,422), Blackpool (239,409)* and Wigan (175,405). Accrington (of the 'Accrington Stanley, who are they?' milk ads of the 80s talking about how mediocre their football team is) and its wider urban area between Blackburn and Burnley is surprisingly 125,059 people - I'd have guessed about 80k-tops!
*though Blackpool is known far more as a resort - it's England's Atlantic City/Vegas place.
Quote from: english si on September 05, 2018, 09:56:53 AM
Green Bay has the Packers promoting their brand, so they punch big for an urban area (much bigger than I expected) of 206,520.
Brighton has an urban area of 474,485 (just smaller than Edinburgh, and a bit bigger than Cardiff), though it does spread for some distance along the coast, diluting it a bit.
Blackburn has an urban area of 146,521. Other previously Premier League Lancastrian towns (and one present one) include Burnley (149,422), Blackpool (239,409)* and Wigan (175,405). Accrington (of the 'Accrington Stanley, who are they?' milk ads of the 80s talking about how mediocre their football team is) and its wider urban area between Blackburn and Burnley is surprisingly 125,059 people - I'd have guessed about 80k-tops!
*though Blackpool is known far more as a resort - it's England's Atlantic City/Vegas place.
Regarding the population figures... the U.S. takes its census every ten years (in the years ending in zero) with annual estimates in the interim. Canada IIRC takes its census in the years ending in 1 and 6. How often does the UK take a population count?
ixnay
Quote from: ixnay on September 08, 2018, 07:25:45 PM
Regarding the population figures... the U.S. takes its census every ten years (in the years ending in zero) with annual estimates in the interim. Canada IIRC takes its census in the years ending in 1 and 6. How often does the UK take a population count?
ixnay
Every 10 years, ending in 1.
Quote from: english si on September 05, 2018, 09:56:53 AM
Green Bay has the Packers promoting their brand, so they punch big for an urban area (much bigger than I expected) of 206,520.
Brighton has an urban area of 474,485 (just smaller than Edinburgh, and a bit bigger than Cardiff), though it does spread for some distance along the coast, diluting it a bit.
Blackburn has an urban area of 146,521. Other previously Premier League Lancastrian towns (and one present one) include Burnley (149,422), Blackpool (239,409)* and Wigan (175,405). Accrington (of the 'Accrington Stanley, who are they?' milk ads of the 80s talking about how mediocre their football team is) and its wider urban area between Blackburn and Burnley is surprisingly 125,059 people - I'd have guessed about 80k-tops!
*though Blackpool is known far more as a resort - it's England's Atlantic City/Vegas place.
And I have been firmly believing for many years now that if it were not for the Packers, the Green Bay area would be a clone of Duluth, MN, basically an unattractive industrial/port (oceangoing ships call via the Saint Lawrence Seaway) pit of a city, while the commercial and cultural center of northeast Wisconsin would be nearby Appleton (my hometown), a twin metro area to Green Bay.
BTW, The Green Bay Packers begin their 100th season of play with their 197th meeting v. the Chicago Bears at Lambeau Field this evening. As of right now, the Packers lead the series 96-6-94.
:cool:
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on September 09, 2018, 10:11:16 AM
Quote from: english si on September 05, 2018, 09:56:53 AM
Green Bay has the Packers promoting their brand, so they punch big for an urban area (much bigger than I expected) of 206,520.
Brighton has an urban area of 474,485 (just smaller than Edinburgh, and a bit bigger than Cardiff), though it does spread for some distance along the coast, diluting it a bit.
Blackburn has an urban area of 146,521. Other previously Premier League Lancastrian towns (and one present one) include Burnley (149,422), Blackpool (239,409)* and Wigan (175,405). Accrington (of the 'Accrington Stanley, who are they?' milk ads of the 80s talking about how mediocre their football team is) and its wider urban area between Blackburn and Burnley is surprisingly 125,059 people - I'd have guessed about 80k-tops!
*though Blackpool is known far more as a resort - it's England's Atlantic City/Vegas place.
And I have been firmly believing for many years now that if it were not for the Packers, the Green Bay area would be a clone of Duluth, MN, basically an unattractive industrial/port (oceangoing ships call via the Saint Lawrence Seaway) pit of a city, while the commercial and cultural center of northeast Wisconsin would be nearby Appleton (my hometown), a twin metro area to Green Bay.
BTW, The Green Bay Packers begin their 100th season of play with their 197th meeting v. the Chicago Bears at Lambeau Field this evening. As of right now, the Packers lead the series 96-6-94.
:cool:
Mike
Well it's basically true. I don't think Green Bay would've becoming the city it is today without the Packers. In a way, they've pretty much made the city the way it is.
Quote from: mgk920 on September 09, 2018, 10:11:16 AMBTW, The Green Bay Packers begin their 100th season of play with their 197th meeting v. the Chicago Bears at Lambeau Field this evening. As of right now, the Packers lead the series 96-6-94.
Similarly (though had remembered the Steel City before I saw this post about an old team) Sheffield United enter their 130th season, and Sheffield Wednesday their 152nd. Only played each other competitively 129 times though. Only twice-per-season for the league, and relegation/promotion meaning that only happens some years...
I forgot about them (United last in Premier League 06-07, Wednesday 99-00) when talking about big cities without recent Premier League teams. Whoops!
Quote from: mgk920 on September 09, 2018, 10:11:16 AM
And I have been firmly believing for many years now that if it were not for the Packers, the Green Bay area would be a clone of Duluth, MN, basically an unattractive industrial/port (oceangoing ships call via the Saint Lawrence Seaway) pit of a city
Mike
Was the last time you visited Duluth 1985?