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Sports teams and their effects on cities' reputations

Started by Road Hog, August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM

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Road Hog

One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. (Other than the Hornets/Bobcats/Hornets again.) Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.


Beltway

Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.

Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

MantyMadTown

Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.

Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.

I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.
Forget the I-41 haters

abefroman329

Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.
I would have guessed Raleigh-Durham as their home town.

Sctvhound

Charlotte has the NBA Hornets too which were very popular in the early 1990s before the Panthers came to town.

Talking about SC, Charleston could be a very worthy contender. In 2000, we had a metro population of about 550K. Now it is nearly 800K. Boeing moving in around 2010/11 was huge for our economy. They also helped our airport. We couldn't support a low-cost carrier for years, then we got JetBlue and Southwest about at the same time.

If the metro grows at about 15K a year (what it has grown by most years in the 2010s), we will be at a million by 2032.

Beltway

Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.

I was thinking in terms of the two biggies, football and baseball.  How close is 'close'?  Richmond is about 100 miles from the Washington teams.  Close enough that a lot of people in the area root for those teams.  The Redskins training camp is in the city of Richmond.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

MantyMadTown

Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.

I was thinking in terms of the two biggies, football and baseball.  How close is 'close'?  Richmond is about 100 miles from the Washington teams.  Close enough that a lot of people in the area root for those teams.  The Redskins training camp is in the city of Richmond.

I would consider Richmond close enough to Washington DC to be considered represented by their sports team. As for baseball teams, I do however feel bad for the south because the only team down there outside of Texas and Florida is in Atlanta. Cities like Nashville and Charlotte or Raleigh deserve a team. I'm wondering if any of those cities are even wanting a baseball team.
Forget the I-41 haters

hotdogPi

Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 05:19:49 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.

I was thinking in terms of the two biggies, football and baseball.  How close is 'close'?  Richmond is about 100 miles from the Washington teams.  Close enough that a lot of people in the area root for those teams.  The Redskins training camp is in the city of Richmond.

I would consider Richmond close enough to Washington DC to be considered represented by their sports team. As for baseball teams, I do however feel bad for the south because the only team down there outside of Texas and Florida is in Atlanta. Cities like Nashville and Charlotte or Raleigh deserve a team. I'm wondering if any of those cities are even wanting a baseball team.

For baseball, most of Virginia is in "no team reaches 30%" territory, and the Nationals aren't even in the top three.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html#8,37.505,-79.059 (warning: NYT allows only 5 free articles per month)
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

MantyMadTown

Quote from: 1 on August 10, 2018, 05:31:54 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 05:19:49 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 10, 2018, 08:50:47 AM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would say almost every metro is pretty well represented by having at least one major league sports team in each of them. The ones that don't have any are already close to ones that do.

I was thinking in terms of the two biggies, football and baseball.  How close is 'close'?  Richmond is about 100 miles from the Washington teams.  Close enough that a lot of people in the area root for those teams.  The Redskins training camp is in the city of Richmond.

I would consider Richmond close enough to Washington DC to be considered represented by their sports team. As for baseball teams, I do however feel bad for the south because the only team down there outside of Texas and Florida is in Atlanta. Cities like Nashville and Charlotte or Raleigh deserve a team. I'm wondering if any of those cities are even wanting a baseball team.

For baseball, most of Virginia is in "no team reaches 30%" territory, and the Nationals aren't even in the top three.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html#8,37.505,-79.059 (warning: NYT allows only 5 free articles per month)

All the more reason to have a team in North Carolina. Also this map is from 2014 so it might be a little outdated. I would like to see a map of how the fanbases have changed since then.
Forget the I-41 haters

Sctvhound

The Nats don't have a very strong following because of the transient nature of the DC market. People move in and out and bring their fandom with them. Most of their following is concentrated within 20-25 miles of DC. Also, in DC they are probably a weak #2 at best, probably #3. The Redskins are so dominant, then the Caps have bypassed them after their Cup run.

Richmond has some Nats fans, but they used to have the AAA Braves team for decades so there are a decent amount of Braves fans.

A NC team would do very well. It'd draw from both Carolinas and southern Virginia. Any time the Braves are decent (like this year) a lot of people make road trips, even from our area (a 5 hour drive). All of the games are broadcast locally on the radio and have been for years.

Beltway

Quote from: Sctvhound on August 10, 2018, 09:13:10 PM
The Nats don't have a very strong following because of the transient nature of the DC market. People move in and out and bring their fandom with them. Most of their following is concentrated within 20-25 miles of DC. Also, in DC they are probably a weak #2 at best, probably #3. The Redskins are so dominant, then the Caps have bypassed them after their Cup run.
Richmond has some Nats fans, but they used to have the AAA Braves team for decades so there are a decent amount of Braves fans.

True indeed.  Plus the Nats are still fairly new to the D.C. area, even though they were around for decades as the Montreal Expos.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

Scott5114

Sports teams don't really have much of an effect on what develops into a major city or not.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Beltway

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2018, 04:56:29 AM
Sports teams don't really have much of an effect on what develops into a major city or not.

Either way.  Green Bay is still a small city.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

abefroman329

A friend of mine once suggested to someone in the Nats' marketing department that they market the Nats as "your second team,"  since so many people move to DC and bring their allegiances with them. I don't think that idea actually went anywhere.

mgk920

Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 06:07:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2018, 04:56:29 AM
Sports teams don't really have much of an effect on what develops into a major city or not.

Either way.  Green Bay is still a small city.

NE Wisconsin (as a region - basically from WI 23 on north) is overall larger than one might think.  I-41 northward from WI 26 in Oshkosh, WI through the Green Bay area to the US 41/141 split at the Abrams Interchange either is six lanes or warrants upgrading to six lanes.  Through the Green Bay metro area itself, it has eight mainline lanes. Right now, it is also the most populous market in the contiguous 48 USA states without common-carrier rail passenger service (Grrrrrr....).

Mike

Beltway

Quote from: abefroman329 on August 11, 2018, 08:26:33 AM
A friend of mine once suggested to someone in the Nats' marketing department that they market the Nats as "your second team,"  since so many people move to DC and bring their allegiances with them. I don't think that idea actually went anywhere.

I was routing for the Baltimore Orioles as the team local to Richmond, before the Nats arrived.  The Orioles have done poorly for the last 20 years or so and now I don't really pay much attention to MLB.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

dvferyance

Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.

Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.

abefroman329

Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on August 10, 2018, 06:13:04 AM
One thing that hurts Charlotte perception-wise is the lack of a pro sports team with its name on it. Atlanta is a well-known major league city with the Braves, Falcons and Hawks. Meanwhile, not everyone can tell you the Carolina Panthers play in Charlotte.

Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.
Did the former ABA Kentucky Colonels play in Louisville?

Beltway

Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.

For NFL and MLB -- Orlando, Raleigh, Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, Albany, Columbus, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, San Antonio.  All over 1 million metro, some over 2 million.
http://www.roadstothefuture.com
http://www.capital-beltway.com

Baloney is a reserved word on the Internet
    (Robert Coté, 2002)

MantyMadTown

Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.

For NFL and MLB -- Orlando, Raleigh, Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, Albany, Columbus, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, San Antonio.  All over 1 million metro, some over 2 million.

I could see a few of these happening, but Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, and Albany are too small for any major league sports to put a team there. Orlando might be able to host a football team because there's a stadium there, and maybe Oklahoma City, San Antonio or Salt Lake City. They could all probably host baseball teams as well along with Raleigh. Raleigh's too close to the Panthers to have a football team though.
Forget the I-41 haters

DTComposer

Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.

For NFL and MLB -- Orlando, Raleigh, Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, Albany, Columbus, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, San Antonio.  All over 1 million metro, some over 2 million.

Little Rock isn't over a million, and Montgomery isn't even over 500,000. Albany and Knoxville only get over a million if you use their CSA instead of the MSA.

Other MSAs over 1 million without either NFL or MLB:
Portland
Sacramento
Las Vegas
Austin
Providence
Memphis
Richmond
Hartford
Birmingham
Rochester
Grand Rapids
Tucson

All that said, 1 million is no longer a large enough threshold for a pro sports franchise, especially MLB or NFL. Based on Commissioner Manfred's comments (who mentioned Portland, Charlotte, Nashville, and Las Vegas as potential expansion sites) 2 million is the minimum nowadays.

MantyMadTown

Quote from: DTComposer on August 11, 2018, 11:32:11 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 09:29:19 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on August 11, 2018, 08:43:18 PM
Quote from: Beltway on August 10, 2018, 06:28:02 AM
Many large metros don't even have a major league sports team in the first place.
I would have to say that the only metros I would consider large that don't have pro sports in Austin TX and Hampton Roads VA maybe you could argue Louisville KY but that is about it.

For NFL and MLB -- Orlando, Raleigh, Knoxville, Montgomery, Little Rock, Albany, Columbus, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Salt Lake City, San Antonio.  All over 1 million metro, some over 2 million.

Little Rock isn't over a million, and Montgomery isn't even over 500,000. Albany and Knoxville only get over a million if you use their CSA instead of the MSA.

Other MSAs over 1 million without either NFL or MLB:
Portland
Sacramento
Las Vegas
Austin
Providence
Memphis
Richmond
Hartford
Birmingham
Rochester
Grand Rapids
Tucson

All that said, 1 million is no longer a large enough threshold for a pro sports franchise, especially MLB or NFL. Based on Commissioner Manfred's comments (who mentioned Portland, Charlotte, Nashville, and Las Vegas as potential expansion sites) 2 million is the minimum nowadays.

Las Vegas is getting a team now that the Raiders are moving there. Portland and Austin could use a team. Hartford and Providence are close enough to be represented by Boston (who has teams in all 4 major league sports), and most of the rest are in the same state as an already existing team. I bet Memphis could maybe get a baseball team?
Forget the I-41 haters

Alps

The location of the Giants and Jets in NJ has long been a point of humor or contention, and can start a bar fight pretty easily. This is why the Jets tried hard to move to Manhattan a few years ago. In thise case it's not so much the perception of NY that suffers as the perception of these teams... and it doesn't help that people all have stereotypes of NJ based on what they see on the Turnpike (which includes the Meadowlands of course). We've also lost the Nets, so NJ only having one sports team with its name on it is somewhat of a negative in itself. Would be nice to have at least one of the two football teams join them.

Laura

Quote from: Beltway on August 11, 2018, 07:06:15 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 11, 2018, 08:26:33 AM
A friend of mine once suggested to someone in the Nats' marketing department that they market the Nats as "your second team,"  since so many people move to DC and bring their allegiances with them. I don't think that idea actually went anywhere.

I was routing for the Baltimore Orioles as the team local to Richmond, before the Nats arrived.  The Orioles have done poorly for the last 20 years or so and now I don't really pay much attention to MLB.

We scored the wild card in 2012, American League East in 2014, and wild card again in 2016. There was a 5 year period this decade that we were awesome. I blame GM Duquette being courted by Toronto in 2015 and the contentious management between him, Buck, Brady, and Angelos for our sharp descent back to crapdom in 2018.

When Penn State's records from 1998-2011 were invalidated, Mike and I jokingly asked where the O's could sign up to have their records lost from those years because they coincidentally lined up perfectly with our losing record.


iPhone

DTComposer

Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 12, 2018, 12:49:06 AM
I bet Memphis could maybe get a baseball team?

Considering Commissioner Manfred specifically called out Nashville and not Memphis as a potential expansion site:
https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/07/19/commissioner-rob-manfred-possible-expansion-cities
and the Nashville metro area is growing at nearly 2% per year, while the Memphis metro area is growing about ¼% per year, I'd say it's a safe bet that Memphis is not on the short list.

Quote from: MantyMadTown on August 12, 2018, 12:49:06 AM
Austin could use a team

My understanding with both San Antonio and Austin (both of which are big enough to support a team) is that the teams in Dallas and Houston would be very unwilling to part with the territorial rights to San Antonio and/or Austin, and this will unfortunately make it difficult to get MLB or NFL in those cities anytime soon.



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