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Inefficient numbered routings

Started by TheStranger, July 15, 2019, 04:52:35 AM

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sparker

It's understandable why the Division of Highways rerouted CA 79 from Hemet south to Temecula and away from its previous route over present Riverside County R3 -- that road (originally SSR 83 prior to the late '30's) is topology-challenged, to say the least, taking a winding path through the hills north of its present alignment between Temecula and Aguanga.  Also, they may have been prescient regarding future Temecula development; a state-maintained facility between that city and the Hemet area is certainly warranted.  But it does squeeze CA 79 into a convoluted path when the entire route is considered -- and through long-distance traffic between the two route segments bifurcated by the I-15 multiplex is likely minimal; northeast and southeast of Temecula function as two different rationales.  IMO, the northern segment should be redesignated as a separate route, using a number from Caltrans' sizeable pool of unused designations.  If they wait a few years, they might be able to appropriate the old "83" number from the Ontario area; given their present criteria for relinquishment, that semi-urban corridor seems a likely candidate for the chopping block -- pieces of it have already been disposed of!

Quote from: TheStranger on July 16, 2019, 02:06:11 PM
Prior to the West Side Freeway part of I-5 being built, I'm not sure if traffic patterns had people using US 50-Route 120-US 99 to get to LA from the Bay Area (or for that matter, 101-152-99).

Once US 99 had been brought out to 4 lanes throughout the Valley -- and US 50 likewise over the Dublin Grade and Altamont -- the 99/120/50 continuum became the commercial corridor of choice between L.A. and the Bay Area.   This was helped by the East Bay supplanting S.F. as the main warehousing/distribution center in the region, but also because US 101 didn't achieve full multilane status until the 1970's with the completion of the San Ardo-King City freeway segment; truckers -- even with the short 120 slog through Manteca -- tended to prefer the inland route.  And it was shorter by about 20 miles than using US 101;  IIRC, the Gousha mileage inserts of the day had LA>SF at 404 miles via 99/120/50 vs. 425 miles via 101 -- this is referring to the small red <bracketed> on-map notations common to Gousha state maps of the day.


texaskdog

Quote from: zzcarp on July 16, 2019, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on July 15, 2019, 04:09:21 PM
Why the turn on US 285 in Colorado?  In addition it takes it FARTHER from the National Park entrance.

Are you speaking of the segment from Alamosa north where Colo Highway 17 is the much more direct route than the US 160 multiplex west to Monte Vista then north?

I could go on...

Yes the Alamosa stretch.  Why would anyone go that way?

Revive 755

Quote from: TheStranger on July 17, 2019, 02:57:00 AM
Wikipedia on IL 267 notes that between the 1960s and 2001, 267 was assigned to the western routing while 67 used today's 267.  What were the reasons for the rerouting to put US 67 back on the western corridor?

The planned expressway upgrades for US 67 between Jacksonville and Godfrey (link to EIS)will generally follow the current US 67 corridor, probably due to the greater population.  When completed it could be slightly longer but off a greater savings on travel time versus today's IL 267.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: texaskdog on July 17, 2019, 09:59:56 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on July 16, 2019, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on July 15, 2019, 04:09:21 PM
Why the turn on US 285 in Colorado?  In addition it takes it FARTHER from the National Park entrance.

Are you speaking of the segment from Alamosa north where Colo Highway 17 is the much more direct route than the US 160 multiplex west to Monte Vista then north?

I could go on...

Yes the Alamosa stretch.  Why would anyone go that way?

If you're shortcutting to Gunnison via CO 114 it ain't too bad of an option. 

zzcarp

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 18, 2019, 12:11:40 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on July 17, 2019, 09:59:56 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on July 16, 2019, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on July 15, 2019, 04:09:21 PM
Why the turn on US 285 in Colorado?  In addition it takes it FARTHER from the National Park entrance.

Are you speaking of the segment from Alamosa north where Colo Highway 17 is the much more direct route than the US 160 multiplex west to Monte Vista then north?

I could go on...

Yes the Alamosa stretch.  Why would anyone go that way?

If you're shortcutting to Gunnison via CO 114 it ain't too bad of an option.

I'm guessing that it was because it hits more towns/population centers than Highway 17 through the San Luis Valley. It is odd because US 285 took over Highway 15 from Buena Vista to Monte Vista and Highway 17 from Alamosa to New Mexico (and Antonito now). Maybe its current route was the better road in 1936.
So many miles and so many roads

jp the roadgeek

Quote from: TheStranger on July 17, 2019, 07:25:44 PM
One that came to mind earlier but I had forgotten to post about until now:

Route 116 in eastern Petaluma, CA, where the straightest/most direct path is Frates Road and Adobe Road, but 116 instead continues on Lakeville Highway before taking a short but curvy routing (Stage Gulch Road) to reconnect with Adobe.

Thanks for the reminder with the 116.  MA 116 and MA 141 through Holyoke have to be the most confusing set of twists and turns and one-way streets.  They even run concurrently for a time.   MA 116 crosses the Connecticut River twice in about a 2 mile stretch (not to mention it also does a 3rd time farther upstream between Sunderland and Deerfield).  You're better served following I-291 East to Liberty St to Broadway and continuing up MA 33 to reach the northern portion of MA 116.  As for MA 141, it's easier to take US 5 to US 202 to Resnick Blvd which becomes I-391 and take Exit 4A to bypass that portion.
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

Rothman

I've often said that following a route through Holyoke is a fool's errand.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

NWI_Irish96

#57
US 20 west of South Bend takes a longer, two lane route, while exiting US 20 at four-lane IN 2 and taking it to Rolling Prairie to rejoin US 20 is both shorter and faster.

Within the city of South Bend, IN 933 exits Lincolnway to follow Sample Street to Michigan St, when remaining on Lincolnway/Monroe is shorter and faster
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

zzcarp

Quote from: cabiness42 on July 18, 2019, 01:39:37 PM
US 20 west of South Bend takes a longer, two lane route, while exiting US 20 at four-lane IN 2 and taking it to Rolling Prairie to rejoin US 20 is both shorter and faster.

This one's always perplexed me, especially since both routes have to TOTSO at Rolling Prairie.
So many miles and so many roads

zzcarp

As I'm planning my road trip from Denver to Ontario, I found another one. US 41 takes a circuitous route north of Green Bay, WI through Menominee (MI), Escanaba, Marquette to near Covington, whereas US 141 is the direct route. It's about 74 miles longer to stay on US 41.

As a microcosm of this, US 41 between Menominee and Escanaba alone is 10 miles longer than the more direct route of M-35.
So many miles and so many roads

PHLBOS

Quote from: StogieGuy7 on July 16, 2019, 01:24:57 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 15, 2019, 10:07:58 AM
A longer one: I-95 between New Haven, CT and Amesbury, MA.  More efficient to take I-91 to CT 15 to I-84 to I-90 to I-290 to I-495 (or stay on I-90 to I-495).

I'm bumping this one up because it's so true and is an important through route: I-95, which ostensibly runs between Boston and New York is very inefficient for that mission.  Better to go up I-91 to I-84 to I-90 (and there are other ways to do this as well).   I-95 through New London, Warwick, Providence, etc. takes quite a bit longer and was only routed that way to provide RI with interstate access.  Prior to the Interstate System, people traveled between Boston and NY via the Wilbur Cross Highway, which roughly parallels the sequence described above.
IIRC, the overall routing of I-95 along the CT coast, Providence and the Greater Boston area et al was loosely based on the routing of US 1.  Many of the 2-digit Interstates, especially the primary ones, usually ran parallel to primary US route(s).
GPS does NOT equal GOD

TheStranger

#61
Quote from: zzcarp on July 18, 2019, 02:24:23 PM
As I'm planning my road trip from Denver to Ontario, I found another one. US 41 takes a circuitous route north of Green Bay, WI through Menominee (MI), Escanaba, Marquette to near Covington, whereas US 141 is the direct route. It's about 74 miles longer to stay on US 41.

As a microcosm of this, US 41 between Menominee and Escanaba alone is 10 miles longer than the more direct route of M-35.

It's interesting to think of how the original segment of I-43 from Milwaukee to Green Bay is former US 141 - essentially making the fullest extent of what was 141 the efficient route from Milwaukee to Menominee (and thus the original north-south Interstate corridor in the state) compared to 41!

To that extent that's kinda what happened with I-95 and US 1 between Jacksonville and Petersburg, VA, where US 1 went further inland to serve the capital cities of the Carolinas.  (US 1 and US 301 have a similar dynamic between those two cities though 95 is more efficient than US 301 between Santee, SC and Jacksonville)
Chris Sampang

sparker

Between Atlanta & Augusta, GA, US 78 takes the "more leisurely" path, detouring northward through Athens, while US 278 (the efficient alternative) heads more or less between the two metro areas on a relative beeline -- which is obviously why it was selected as the basic alignment for I-20. 

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: zzcarp on July 18, 2019, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on July 18, 2019, 01:39:37 PM
US 20 west of South Bend takes a longer, two lane route, while exiting US 20 at four-lane IN 2 and taking it to Rolling Prairie to rejoin US 20 is both shorter and faster.

This one's always perplexed me, especially since both routes have to TOTSO at Rolling Prairie.

All I can figure is that US 20 is following the routing of the old Michigan Road so that's why it's kept that way.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

doorknob60

Quote from: US 89 on July 16, 2019, 07:54:22 PM
Quote from: doorknob60 on July 16, 2019, 07:44:03 PM
US-93 between NV-318 and Ely. Direct route is NV-318 and US-6, 136 miles, 2h 8m. Following US-93 is 176 miles, 2h 43m. This one is very poorly signed from US-93 (you have to know to turn on 318), unlike the other example.

There is this sign on 93 southbound in Ely, which shows a 44 mile advantage to SR 318: 



Ah yes I forgot about that one. To my knowledge, there is nothing to that effect going northbound, which is what I was referencing.

chesapeake256

WV-62 would be a classic example. It's termini are 38.8 miles apart directly, yet it makes its way there over the course of... 100.83 miles.

Routing:



Also worth noting is the odd configuration of OH-676 west of Watertown. The planners must have been just allergic to direct alignments, as this ended up happening:



Not sure why it was routed this way, as this routing does not put it through any extra useful points as far as I can tell.

gonealookin

A local one is NV 208 from the south end of the Mason Valley to Yerington.  It's not so much the mileage, rather the type of road.  NV 208 is a major highway extending east from US 395 but once it gets to Mason Valley it turns into a local farm road and then serves as the main street in Yerington, at the end of which it reaches US 95 Alt.  NV 339 is a modern high-speed two-lane road along the west side of Mason Valley; it meets US 95 Alt. just west of Yerington.  This is part of the most direct route from Lake Tahoe to Las Vegas, and NDOT does have a green sign at the 339/208 split directing those bound for Las Vegas onto NV 339.

TheStranger

Quote from: gonealookin on July 19, 2019, 03:16:01 PM
A local one is NV 208 from the south end of the Mason Valley to Yerington.  It's not so much the mileage, rather the type of road.  NV 208 is a major highway extending east from US 395 but once it gets to Mason Valley it turns into a local farm road and then serves as the main street in Yerington, at the end of which it reaches US 95 Alt.  NV 339 is a modern high-speed two-lane road along the west side of Mason Valley; it meets US 95 Alt. just west of Yerington.  This is part of the most direct route from Lake Tahoe to Las Vegas, and NDOT does have a green sign at the 339/208 split directing those bound for Las Vegas onto NV 339.

In that vein...

Between Tonopah and Winnemucca US 95 is not the shortest routing between the two, but a combo of NV 376 & NV 305.  But I always understood this as having US 95 make the bit of a westward jog in order to better serve the Vegas-Reno corridor.

I wonder which route gets more of the Reno-bound traffic: US 95 to Alternate US 50 to I-80, or Alternate US 95 to US 50 to NV 439 to I-80.
Chris Sampang

gonealookin

#68
Quote from: TheStranger on July 19, 2019, 04:40:12 PM
Between Tonopah and Winnemucca US 95 is not the shortest routing between the two, but a combo of NV 376 & NV 305.  But I always understood this as having US 95 make the bit of a westward jog in order to better serve the Vegas-Reno corridor.

The US 95 routing also had much to do with the history of paving roads across the middle-of-nothing portion of central Nevada.

Here's the 1948 state highway map, showing NV 8A from Tonopah north to Battle Mountain as almost entirely unpaved.  US 95 provides a paved route all the way, although even that highway takes a detour west from Fallon to Fernley, where it joins US 40, along the northern Lincoln Highway routing.  The direct route from Fallon north to US 40 is a graded road designated NV 1A.

https://www.nevadadot.com/home/showdocument?id=1209

By 1953 the direct route from Tonopah to Battle Mountain is fully paved (NV 8A is shifted to the newly-constructed road near Battle Mountain shortly thereafter).  NV 1A north of Fallon is still a graded road.

https://www.nevadadot.com/home/showdocument?id=1219

NV 1A was finally paved in the late 1950s, and the 1960 map is the first one showing that road redesignated as US 95 from Fallon north to US 40.

https://www.nevadadot.com/home/showdocument?id=1235

Edit: . The 1936 map is the first showing the pre-1960 routing of US 95 as continuously paved from Las Vegas to Winnemucca.  The US 95 routing through Nevada was adopted in 1939, at which time they wouldn't have had any idea when NV 8A would be paved.

sparker

Quote from: TheStranger on July 19, 2019, 04:40:12 PM
Quote from: gonealookin on July 19, 2019, 03:16:01 PM
A local one is NV 208 from the south end of the Mason Valley to Yerington.  It's not so much the mileage, rather the type of road.  NV 208 is a major highway extending east from US 395 but once it gets to Mason Valley it turns into a local farm road and then serves as the main street in Yerington, at the end of which it reaches US 95 Alt.  NV 339 is a modern high-speed two-lane road along the west side of Mason Valley; it meets US 95 Alt. just west of Yerington.  This is part of the most direct route from Lake Tahoe to Las Vegas, and NDOT does have a green sign at the 339/208 split directing those bound for Las Vegas onto NV 339.

In that vein...

Between Tonopah and Winnemucca US 95 is not the shortest routing between the two, but a combo of NV 376 & NV 305.  But I always understood this as having US 95 make the bit of a westward jog in order to better serve the Vegas-Reno corridor.

I wonder which route gets more of the Reno-bound traffic: US 95 to Alternate US 50 to I-80, or Alternate US 95 to US 50 to NV 439 to I-80.

At this point, since the NV 439 cutoff is relatively recent, most LV-Reno traffic likely still goes through Fallon, using US 95 right to US 50 and then Alternate 50 to I-80.  Have no idea what the various GPS devices suggest (don't have one, never needed one, etc.) -- but it's probably the routing described above.  It's also likely that the pending I-11 pathway will also utilize that route, but making a diagonal southwestern bypass of Fallon to (a) cut off some mileage and (b) avoid taking developed property; its probable I-80 junction is just northeast of Fernley, close to the "elbow" of I-80 at that location.   

Revive 755

Quote from: chesapeake256 on July 19, 2019, 01:57:16 PM
WV-62 would be a classic example. It's termini are 38.8 miles apart directly, yet it makes its way there over the course of... 100.83 miles.

It's nowhere near as bad as WV 62, but going from the IL 83/IL 120 junction to the Belvidere Road bridge over IL 137 in Waukegan is about four miles shorter via IL 120 and the unnumbered section of Belvidere Road than using IL 137 (which starts about 1500 feet south of the IL 83/IL 120 intersection).

mgk920

Quote from: TheStranger on July 18, 2019, 04:16:30 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on July 18, 2019, 02:24:23 PM
As I'm planning my road trip from Denver to Ontario, I found another one. US 41 takes a circuitous route north of Green Bay, WI through Menominee (MI), Escanaba, Marquette to near Covington, whereas US 141 is the direct route. It's about 74 miles longer to stay on US 41.

As a microcosm of this, US 41 between Menominee and Escanaba alone is 10 miles longer than the more direct route of M-35.

It's interesting to think of how the original segment of I-43 from Milwaukee to Green Bay is former US 141 - essentially making the fullest extent of what was 141 the efficient route from Milwaukee to Menominee (and thus the original north-south Interstate corridor in the state) compared to 41!

To that extent that's kinda what happened with I-95 and US 1 between Jacksonville and Petersburg, VA, where US 1 went further inland to serve the capital cities of the Carolinas.  (US 1 and US 301 have a similar dynamic between those two cities though 95 is more efficient than US 301 between Santee, SC and Jacksonville)

In actuality, WI 57 is the shortest and most direct route between Milwaukee and Green Bay and was what was originally planned to be upgraded to be the interstate (then referred to as 'I-57').  Still, because the busiest of the three routes between MKE and GRB was US 41 (it far and away serves the highest population along its way) and it was nearly all already four lanes when the interstate route was approved, it was determined to be too expensive to quickly upgrade US 41 to full interstate standards and thus the new interstate was to be mostly developed on a new ROW to follow and supplant WI 57 and later on US 141.  It was the same rationale as for building I-5 on its new ROW routing on the west edge of California's Central Valley instead of upgrading the existing US and later on CA 99.

Mike

hbelkins

WV 62 was extended to cover the former route of US 33 when that route was re-routed across the Ravenswood bridge and onto I-77.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

Bitmapped

Quote from: hbelkins on July 16, 2019, 12:20:24 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 15, 2019, 02:28:52 PM
Since this is "inefficient"  not necessarily shortest or fastest, I will put forth I-79->I-68 over following I-70 between Washington, PA and Hancock, MD.

Google Maps has both routes within 5 minutes and 10 miles of each other, but considering the tolls on the PA Turnpike, gotta give the efficiency edge to 79-68. Also, no stoplights on that route, either!

But I-68 is a more inefficient route when it comes to using fuel. There's a reason truckers prefer staying on I-70, and paying the tolls, vs. going south into West Virginia and using I-68. Some of those grades are pretty steep.

The reality is I-68 came way after I-70. Aside from the grades H.B. mentions, I-68 is much more prone to weather problems - snow in the winter, and dense fog any time of the year.

texaskdog

Quote from: zzcarp on July 18, 2019, 02:24:23 PM
As I'm planning my road trip from Denver to Ontario, I found another one. US 41 takes a circuitous route north of Green Bay, WI through Menominee (MI), Escanaba, Marquette to near Covington, whereas US 141 is the direct route. It's about 74 miles longer to stay on US 41.

As a microcosm of this, US 41 between Menominee and Escanaba alone is 10 miles longer than the more direct route of M-35.

41 was supposed to be built straight north from Powers and never was.  But, it should follow the coast.  Moreso it should end in Marquette and US 141 continue to Copper Harbor. US 2 then moves to M-28 and US 8 continues east from Norway to Saint Ignace.



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