Oregon

[pderocco]

I'm getting tired of cable stayed bridges. They were cool at first, but they seem inefficient, because the cables are not aligned with gravity, so they need to be stronger than vertical cables. Also, they're not a very pretty shape. The basket handle arch looks the most beautiful to me.

[Rothman]

I'm getting tired of cable stayed bridges. They were cool at first, but they seem inefficient, because the cables are not aligned with gravity, so they need to be stronger than vertical cables. Also, they're not a very pretty shape. The basket handle arch looks the most beautiful to me.

If cable-stayed bridges weren't efficient, then their designs wouldn't be chosen.

[Max Rockatansky]

The design has become vanilla though. 

[Rothman]

The design has become vanilla though. 

You may want fancy bridges.  Taxpayers don't want to pay up, though.

[Max Rockatansky]

The design has become vanilla though. 

You may want fancy bridges.  Taxpayers don't want to pay up, though.
[/quote

The current Burnside Bridge is plenty fancy as is. 

If I recall correctly, none of the bridges in downtown Portland are considered to be up modern earthquake codes.  It is just a shame that one of the better-looking bridges from the 1920s era is being targeted for removal.  More so of a shame when the replacement options aren't exactly eye catching (taxpayer concerns aside).

[Sub-Urbanite]

The design has become vanilla though. 

You may want fancy bridges.  Taxpayers don't want to pay up, though.

The current Burnside Bridge is plenty fancy as is. 

If I recall correctly, none of the bridges in downtown Portland are considered to be up modern earthquake codes.  It is just a shame that one of the better-looking bridges from the 1920s era is being targeted for removal.  More so of a shame when the replacement options aren't exactly eye catching (taxpayer concerns aside).

Just as a refresher - it wasn't until the early 1990s that scientists really grokked the seismic threat in the PNW. Until then, they thought Oregon was subject to periodic earthquakes, but they didn't know about the megathrust fault off the coast until the late 1980s at the earliest.

So, yeah. All of those century-old bridges over the Willamette are sitting ducks. Burnside is the first to go.

IMHO the cable-stayed is a nice complement to the convention center spires. I also think cable-stayed is played out at this point, but I feel like you could always do an arch bridge over the Hawthorne when we replace it in 2072.

[Max Rockatansky]

The design has become vanilla though. 

You may want fancy bridges.  Taxpayers don't want to pay up, though.

The current Burnside Bridge is plenty fancy as is. 

If I recall correctly, none of the bridges in downtown Portland are considered to be up modern earthquake codes.  It is just a shame that one of the better-looking bridges from the 1920s era is being targeted for removal.  More so of a shame when the replacement options aren't exactly eye catching (taxpayer concerns aside).

Just as a refresher - it wasn't until the early 1990s that scientists really grokked the seismic threat in the PNW. Until then, they thought Oregon was subject to periodic earthquakes, but they didn't know about the megathrust fault off the coast until the late 1980s at the earliest.

So, yeah. All of those century-old bridges over the Willamette are sitting ducks. Burnside is the first to go.

IMHO the cable-stayed is a nice complement to the convention center spires. I also think cable-stayed is played out at this point, but I feel like you could always do an arch bridge over the Hawthorne when we replace it in 2072.

I get it that I'm the one questioning aesthetic over safety.  All the same, how safe is the situation really when all the bridges won't withstand megathrust quake?   

Replacing one bridge that isn't even part of a Sign Route is a pretty small place to start, but likely one of the easiest.  It isn't as though there is anything close to reality for stuff like the Marquam Bridge, Steel Bridge or Ross Island Bridge.

Amusingly a couple years ago I was on a RoadwayWiz webinar regarding Portland.  I didn't have a glowing opinion about the look of cable stay bridges and I think that I surprised Dan.  Glad to see that the community isn't one hundred percent gushing over their look anymore.

[pderocco]

What's interesting is that it appears that they're committing to never allowing tall boats that far south on the Willamette ever again. When I lived there in the 90s, I'm not sure I ever saw anything south of the Steel open, but the county website indicates that they still open them all down to the Hawthorne. But if the Burnside can't be open, that pretty much eliminates the need to open the Morrison or the Hawthorne.

By the way, I always loved the dual lift Steel. The lower railroad level was up fairly often, but I only saw the upper road level raised a few times. And after I moved away, they added a bike lane to the south side of the lower level, along with the floating bike path along the east riverbank.

[Bruce]

Replacing one bridge that isn't even part of a Sign Route is a pretty small place to start, but likely one of the easiest.  It isn't as though there is anything close to reality for stuff like the Marquam Bridge, Steel Bridge or Ross Island Bridge.

The current earthquake doomsday scenario is that all emergency traffic is routed over Tilikum Crossing (the light rail/bike/pedestrian bridge), which was designed to current seismic standards, and clear paths from there. Having a second bridge to rely on would be extremely useful.

[Max Rockatansky]

Replacing one bridge that isn't even part of a Sign Route is a pretty small place to start, but likely one of the easiest.  It isn't as though there is anything close to reality for stuff like the Marquam Bridge, Steel Bridge or Ross Island Bridge.

The current earthquake doomsday scenario is that all emergency traffic is routed over Tilikum Crossing (the light rail/bike/pedestrian bridge), which was designed to current seismic standards, and clear paths from there. Having a second bridge to rely on would be extremely useful.

I guess what I'm trying to say that it isn't enough if such a quake happens.  There doesn't seem to be a really clear path ahead to develop a timeline for all necessary replacements and/or seismic retrofitting. 

[Sub-Urbanite]

The Burnside replacement has a bascule center span. The cable-stayed / tied arch portion is for the eastern approach over I-5 and UPRR.

What's interesting is that it appears that they're committing to never allowing tall boats that far south on the Willamette ever again. When I lived there in the 90s, I'm not sure I ever saw anything south of the Steel open, but the county website indicates that they still open them all down to the Hawthorne. But if the Burnside can't be open, that pretty much eliminates the need to open the Morrison or the Hawthorne.

By the way, I always loved the dual lift Steel. The lower railroad level was up fairly often, but I only saw the upper road level raised a few times. And after I moved away, they added a bike lane to the south side of the lower level, along with the floating bike path along the east riverbank.

[Sub-Urbanite]

I mean, look, it would only cost $6-8 billion to replace all the remaining Willamette bridges...

... and coordinate that effort between owners Multnomah County (Hawthorne, Morrison, Broadway), ODOT (Marquam, Fremont, St. John's) and Union Pacific (Steel) plus TriMet and PBOT and bike advocates and No More Freeways and... and... and... and...

Replacing one bridge that isn't even part of a Sign Route is a pretty small place to start, but likely one of the easiest.  It isn't as though there is anything close to reality for stuff like the Marquam Bridge, Steel Bridge or Ross Island Bridge.

The current earthquake doomsday scenario is that all emergency traffic is routed over Tilikum Crossing (the light rail/bike/pedestrian bridge), which was designed to current seismic standards, and clear paths from there. Having a second bridge to rely on would be extremely useful.

I guess what I'm trying to say that it isn't enough if such a quake happens.  There doesn't seem to be a really clear path ahead to develop a timeline for all necessary replacements and/or seismic retrofitting. 

[pderocco]

The Burnside replacement has a bascule center span. The cable-stayed / tied arch portion is for the eastern approach over I-5 and UPRR.

What's interesting is that it appears that they're committing to never allowing tall boats that far south on the Willamette ever again. When I lived there in the 90s, I'm not sure I ever saw anything south of the Steel open, but the county website indicates that they still open them all down to the Hawthorne. But if the Burnside can't be open, that pretty much eliminates the need to open the Morrison or the Hawthorne.

By the way, I always loved the dual lift Steel. The lower railroad level was up fairly often, but I only saw the upper road level raised a few times. And after I moved away, they added a bike lane to the south side of the lower level, along with the floating bike path along the east riverbank.

I should have read the text more carefully. You sure can't tell that from the drawings.

Tilikum Crossing looks like the lowest bridge, with about 80' clearance. On the other hand, the Broadway Bridge looks like it's got 90' in the down position. So when the time comes, perhaps it could be a fixed bridge, which would make it the easiest to replace next.

[roadman65]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/53861874600
Is Siskiyou and Summit two different places? Or is it the same?  Is it Siskiyou and Summit or Siskiyou Summit?

Both are on separate lines suggest they are two completely different places, but no such communities exist with the area.

I'm assuming it's one place, but shouldn't it be on one line or hyphenated between the two?

[Bruce]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/53861874600
Is Siskiyou and Summit two different places? Or is it the same?  Is it Siskiyou and Summit or Siskiyou Summit?

Both are on separate lines suggest they are two completely different places, but no such communities exist with the area.

I'm assuming it's one place, but shouldn't it be on one line or hyphenated between the two?

It's a single place, and follows the common format for such summits in the Northwest. No need for hyphens or anything else.

[pderocco]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/53861874600
Is Siskiyou and Summit two different places? Or is it the same?  Is it Siskiyou and Summit or Siskiyou Summit?

Both are on separate lines suggest they are two completely different places, but no such communities exist with the area.

I'm assuming it's one place, but shouldn't it be on one line or hyphenated between the two?

That would be one helluva wide sign.

Oddly, "Siskiyou Summit" is the term used for the highest point on I-5, and this exit actually diverts you away from it onto OR-273, a.k.a. Old Highway 99S, which goes over what's called "Siskiyou Pass", considerably higher. So the sign is simply wrong.

Also, I can't find any route 273 signage in GSV, except right at the northern end where it turns off OR-66. Google only labels the road as 273 from I-5 exit 6 up to OR-66, but ODOT's GIS shows that it is all 273.

[Bickendan]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/54480415@N08/53861874600
Is Siskiyou and Summit two different places? Or is it the same?  Is it Siskiyou and Summit or Siskiyou Summit?

Both are on separate lines suggest they are two completely different places, but no such communities exist with the area.

I'm assuming it's one place, but shouldn't it be on one line or hyphenated between the two?

If you look closely, 'Summit' is not justified all the way to the left like 'Siskiyou' is. That's an indication it's all one location, though like pderocco notes the Summit is on I-5/ORH 1, and the Pass is on OR(H) 273.

[xonhulu]

Also, I can't find any route 273 signage in GSV, except right at the northern end where it turns off OR-66. Google only labels the road as 273 from I-5 exit 6 up to OR-66, but ODOT's GIS shows that it is all 273.

When they originally signed the northern end, they also installed a 273 shield up at I-5's exit 6 (photo taken in 2004):



However, the next time I saw it in 2009, it had gotten damaged:



After that, I never saw it again.  Guessing it was removed & never replaced.

I've never seen any 273 signage south of exit 6, but AFAIK that section is part of OR 273.

[xonhulu]

From our Lewis & Clark Bridge discussion last month:

Wonder what will be appearing on it? I assume "TO I-5" is in order, and the destinations are still Longview / Seattle, but there's a good chance of a WA-433 or WA-432.

I'd settle for the "TO I-5."  I'd be pretty surprised if the sign referenced either of the WA-43x's.

Amusingly, the ODOT Project page DOES refer to WA 433. I'll be in Clatskanie in the fall for one of OSB's concerts and will keep an eye out on the return drive.

I just saw the now-uncovered sign a few hours ago.  It does have a WA 433 shield on it, but no mention of I-5. It also still uses Longview and Seattle as control cities.

Sorry, no photo, as I wasn't the driver & it was night.  I'll try to snap a pic if I get up there again anytime soon.

[bing101]

Here is a tour of I-205 in the Portland area by Rockersk08.

[Bickendan]

I-5 is getting widened through the South Salem Hills between Kuebler and Delaney (Enchanted Forest exit).

Hopefully this link works.
https://gis.odot.state.or.us/tpt/projects/19929?mapPoint=44.86879914574504,-123.0042575475135,-13692771.31559388,5600890.191534712,11

[Sub-Urbanite]

Now go all the way to Albany

[xonhulu]

Now go all the way to Albany

I'll second that motion.

Also, get Salem to completely 4-lane Commercial St to the I-5 exit.  It would only require about 3-4 blocks of widening.